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Old 01-02-2012, 08:29 PM   #1
dapidmini
Dojo: Surabaya Aikido Dojo
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True victory?

I heard some people say Masakatsu Agatsu means true victory is victory over oneself.. but O Sensei said something on the line of "There's no enemy in Aikido, therefore Aikido can not lose." I had a personal experience.. a student in my dojo says that almost none of the upper kyu ranks holder can apply the technique correctly and force him to fall (he is a big guy). and he said that some times he falls voluntarily when I do the technique because he respects me (he said I was a pleasant person ). of course, I heard this from another person.

then I thought to myself, isn't that a true victory? a victory where no one feels defeated? what do you think?
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Old 01-03-2012, 07:40 AM   #2
graham christian
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Re: True victory?

Sounds more like true defeat to me.

Regards.G.
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Old 01-03-2012, 08:52 AM   #3
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: True victory?

I wonder how long the big man has been training. Many men have challenged my teaching of Aikido. (That sounds so something.) ;o) But it is true. Part of teaching, for me (please notice the disclaimer...I am not telling you what you should do) is teaching people how to uke. Most people can stop technique when uke knows what nage is going to do.

The essance of the aikido I teach is not about having power over. Some people need to be reminded of that over and over. He must be having some fun if he keeps coming back.

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Old 01-03-2012, 09:24 AM   #4
lbb
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Re: True victory?

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Most people can stop technique when uke knows what nage is going to do.
Or alter their attack so that nage can't do the specified technique, or get their attack to "succeed" by putting themselves in harm's way and counting on nage's restraint (how many techniques have you seen "defeated" by an uke who was oblivious to the fact that nage is trying hard not to hurt him/her?), or otherwise interfere with nage's practice. In all likelihood, big fella is doing one or more of these things. It would be a kindness to him to point it out; otherwise, he's just not going to get any benefit out of his training (apart perhaps from a little shallow and short-term ego gratification).
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Old 01-03-2012, 12:45 PM   #5
Don Nordin
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Re: True victory?

It sounds like the big fella may not be putting enough energy into his attacks, as Mary said. He may need some uke practice.
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Old 01-03-2012, 01:14 PM   #6
genin
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Re: True victory?

A true victory would be if he thought your technique was inadequate, pretended it wasn't, then told no one. Then he'd be protecting your ego as well as his own integrity. But he told someone else, which is probably an attempt to put others down for having bad technique, and/or build himself up by making himself seem like a really great guy for not wanting to hurt other's feelings.
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Old 01-05-2012, 09:47 PM   #7
Mark Gibbons
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Re: True victory?

Two of the responses to the OP speculated that uke may get ego gratification from stopping a technique. I think that explanation is unlikely. Most folks I've run into get enjoyment and satisfaction out of their partner's technique working and just a sense of bafflement when higher ranked nages can't get a technique to work.

The seeming consensus of blaming uke for technique not working just seems wrong to me btw.

Mark
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Old 01-06-2012, 01:01 PM   #8
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: True victory?

You are at an atm machine. You're withdrawing cash.
You have a strange sensation somebody is behind your back. But it lasts really a second.
Next thing you know, you feel your hed clashing with an extreme violence against teh ATM and you feel sort of an hand on your scalp repeating the movement and in a matter of 3 seconds your forehead and nose have banged against the ATM about 10 times, with extreme energy. You are bleeding copiously from your broken nose and you have deep cuts on your forehead, and on your left eyebrow - the latter is bleeding into your eye so your sight is impaired.
Now they lift both your feet and you bang violently on the ground, then they start stomping your face with a feet as someone else is kicking your guts, and they take your cash.
Time of execution, about 15 seconds.

This if they are in the mood, otherwise a zaaaap and you're whriting on the ground shaken by a high voltage.

These guys have been kinder to you: they just gave to you a feeling of how the real thing may look like. And, in an eerie manner, they may have even showed more "respect": in fact, by treating you like a dangerous enemy that must be incapacitated, they proved they had an high opinion of you.
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Old 01-06-2012, 02:28 PM   #9
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: True victory?

You are at an ATM withdrawing cash. You have looked around before entering. You have gone to an ATM that is not isolated. The door locks behind you as you get your money. You turn and put the money in your pocket. You are aware of your surroundings as you get into your car and drive away.

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Old 01-06-2012, 08:13 PM   #10
graham christian
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Re: True victory?

You are at an atm machine, you meet someone there, you fall in love, you get married have children and live happily ever after.

Regards.G.
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Old 01-07-2012, 04:27 AM   #11
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: True victory?

yeah both 3 things may happen. What happens in version #2 (Mary) is what happens every day and is of no consequence. What happens in version #3 (Graham) is what never happens (I would suggest to avoid falling in love at ATM machines: the girl may like your bank account more than you lol). What happens in version #1 (Alberto) is what may happen only once in your life, or at most twice: if it happens, it will ruin your life.

Now tell me, oh martial monks, what are you going to get ready for: Do you get ready and do you rehearsal for the unconsequential occurrences of your lives, or for the consequential ones?
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Old 01-07-2012, 04:41 AM   #12
LinTal
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Re: True victory?

My experience has taught me that the mundane occurances are usually the consequential ones, and learning how to live well within these minimises my chance of finding the unlikely ones. There are no inconsequential experiences.

Something can only ruin your life if you permit it to.

The world changes when you do.
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Old 01-07-2012, 05:49 AM   #13
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: True victory?

A friend of mine was once asked by a friend of his to show him a technique from Aikido. My friend shows him nikkyo. The guy begins to resist, my friend stops his application. The guy says, "I told you it wouldn't work." My friend says, "I value our friendship too much to injure you to prove a point."

This is similar to how one should treat a student. How you respond though will vary depending on the individual.

Lyle Laizure
www.hinodedojo.com
Deru kugi wa uta reru
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Old 01-07-2012, 10:28 AM   #14
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: True victory?

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
yeah both 3 things may happen. What happens in version #2 (Mary) is what happens every day and is of no consequence. What happens in version #3 (Graham) is what never happens (I would suggest to avoid falling in love at ATM machines: the girl may like your bank account more than you lol). What happens in version #1 (Alberto) is what may happen only once in your life, or at most twice: if it happens, it will ruin your life.

Now tell me, oh martial monks, what are you going to get ready for: Do you get ready and do you rehearsal for the unconsequential occurrences of your lives, or for the consequential ones?
You missed the point.

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Old 01-07-2012, 02:05 PM   #15
lbb
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Re: True victory?

You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
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Old 01-07-2012, 05:29 PM   #16
graham christian
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Re: True victory?

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
yeah both 3 things may happen. What happens in version #2 (Mary) is what happens every day and is of no consequence. What happens in version #3 (Graham) is what never happens (I would suggest to avoid falling in love at ATM machines: the girl may like your bank account more than you lol). What happens in version #1 (Alberto) is what may happen only once in your life, or at most twice: if it happens, it will ruin your life.

Now tell me, oh martial monks, what are you going to get ready for: Do you get ready and do you rehearsal for the unconsequential occurrences of your lives, or for the consequential ones?
Very good, your answer is very astute.

Unfortunately Grasshopper fixating on one, your favorite one, only leads to that one dimensional deluded place that many call martial. If the type of event you describe may only happen once or twice then it equates with others of the same ilk like the possibility of being run over by a car or any other potentially life changing experiences. I think you'll find the prepared mind is what is necessary in all cases.

The prepared mind is not one of fear of what might happen and thus a fixation on it. Think about this.

Now on point one do you have a prepared mind? He who sees it as of no consequence is blind to the beauty of life. On point two do you have a prepared mind? Or do you see harmony as a dream that never happens?

In my opinion a 'martial monk' is prepared and appreciative of all three in equal measure and dismissive of none.

Regards.G.
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Old 01-07-2012, 07:17 PM   #17
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: True victory?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
In my opinion a 'martial monk' is prepared and appreciative of all three in equal measure and dismissive of none.
Seconded (after 2/3 of an irish whiskey bottle).

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Old 01-08-2012, 03:21 AM   #18
LinTal
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Re: True victory?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Seconded (after 2/3 of an irish whiskey bottle).
Sir is very wise to attempt harmony with all things. Particularly the floor.

The world changes when you do.
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Old 01-08-2012, 06:55 AM   #19
Tim Griffiths
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Re: True victory?

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
yeah both 3 things may happen. What happens in version #2 (Mary) is what happens every day and is of no consequence
Wrong, what Mary described was the result of good awareness and good aiki.

Terry Dobson stressed this repeatedly. To paraphrase him: If you're attacked with a knife in a dark alley at night, you've already screwed up - there's no aikido in putting yourself in that situation.

Incidentally, you can see some similar attacks that have happened not far from me in this article: chinasmack.com.
Its rather instructive to see how it happens and what kind of timeframe you have to respond.

If one makes a distinction between the dojo and the battlefield, or being in your bedroom or in public, then when the time comes there will be no opportunity to make amends. (Hagakure)
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Old 01-12-2012, 10:53 AM   #20
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: True victory?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post

The prepared mind is not one of fear of what might happen and thus a fixation on it. Think about this.

Now on point one do you have a prepared mind? He who sees it as of no consequence is blind to the beauty of life. On point two do you have a prepared mind? Or do you see harmony as a dream that never happens?
Harmony? Who needs harmony lol
I personally don't want harmony, so I don't even need to think whether it is possibile or not: it may well be possibile, and I wish all who covet it that they may find it. But personally, I don't care about harmony. I don't want the spring, flowers, baseball teams, kodak moments and picnics. I want winter, i want thorns.

So it is not that I think of harmony like a dream that never happens: it is just that harmony is a dream that i never dream, because i don't care about it. I don't desire it. Simply.

Apparently, it seems to some like an utterly unknown viewpoint on life. Not everyone dreams of spending a few aeons in the land of utter bliss. Some find it boring.

The Buddha predicates non attachment, o martial monks. And to achieve that, he speaks of dominating desire and coveting.

But I am not there - I am with the Tantra way to initiation, with the ghora (the horrific), with the second path to enlightenment: for that path, you don't get illuminated by cultivating harmony or by removing desire, but by mastering the horrific. It's the path of the charnel grounds, if you ever heard of that.
It is neither better nor worse than the other way: yet, it is just another well established way to attain that goal.
It is funny that so many guys seem not to know about it, or to have ever heard about it. It is as ancient as buddhism itself (tantrism, unless some may know only the vulgata of it and believe that Tantrism is that stuff about sex.. it is not): some guys have a preference for attaining mastery by confronting the brutal and the unpleasant. In this mindset, you are ready only when you master dread and fear - when all the daemons may come to you threatening you, and yet you're utterly ummoved.

You grow into the tempest - if the tempest, of course, doesn't kill or maims you first (which it has a regrettable tendency to do...).

Not that I am there at the enlightenment level, of course. Not even close. But that's the path more akin to my mentality. Simply.

One ought to need to be aware of the full gamut, before arguing that a time honoured path to illumination like the Tantrist one, the violent one, represents a "fixation" that need to be lectured with remarkable "think of that" lines and fixed with a dose of endless love in the land of true romance where a young man goes hand in hand with a blonde and pure and chaste maiden walking in bliss forever in the heavenly fields caressing the blonde hair of cute children that play with dolls on evergreen meadows LOL


Some of us just don't care about that stuff, you know.

It seems really utterly unknown to many. I think this is why some invariably take it like a stance that ought to be "corrected" when, instead, it is just a contribution from the other side of the shore.

Mine is just a contribution from a different perspective - I find it surprising that, in what I assume being a learned audience about Far East doctrines, instead than being taken as such and recognized as such, it is received as something that needs to be aemended.

There is nothing to aemend in it, on the contrary being much rarer than the "harmony" path, it could even be welcomed with some interest - and with some awareness, hopefully, that it is not exactly my personal invention... :-)

Some live with the vajrabhairava - with Shiva, not with Brahma. With the wratfhul deities, not with the loving ones. Both are conducive to the same goal.
Only, i find it a lil too convenient to say that one chose the harmony path, when it is so convenient to choose it.

It may be bombastic and chauvinist to allege one chose the wrathful deities (as a matter of fact, I'm not speaking here of any religion, but of a natural predilection or inclination that a mind bent to good may none the less feel as his/her own). But alleging that one chose the peaceful ones is no better in the suspects it may raise: that one did not actually choose anything, and that in order to conceal that nothing was chosen, one either says that nothingness was chosen or that "peace" was.

Tantrism guys. Tantrism. No invention of mine. Just a reminder of mine.

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 01-12-2012 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 01-12-2012, 11:09 AM   #21
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: True victory?

Liberation by thinking of the unpleasant, instead than of the pleasant.
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Old 01-13-2012, 04:34 AM   #22
LinTal
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Re: True victory?

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
Harmony? Who needs harmony lol
I personally don't want harmony, so I don't even need to think whether it is possibile or not: it may well be possibile, and I wish all who covet it that they may find it. But personally, I don't care about harmony. I don't want the spring, flowers, baseball teams, kodak moments and picnics. I want winter, i want thorns.

So it is not that I think of harmony like a dream that never happens: it is just that harmony is a dream that i never dream, because i don't care about it. I don't desire it. Simply.

Apparently, it seems to some like an utterly unknown viewpoint on life. Not everyone dreams of spending a few aeons in the land of utter bliss. Some find it boring.
Ah, now I understand. There's a miscommunication here that needs to be cleared up. Harmony isn't bliss or all that imagery; that's just people putting a reference to something they find hard to articulate. Harmony is, rather, the base core of self being reached.

Let me explain. There's sometimes a feeling of something just inexplicably clicking, of feeling right beyond any shadow of doubt. Sometimes we pass into awareness of this when playing a musical instrument for example; it's a more essential and truer zone that we might sometimes slip into for a moment. This is harmony with self. Harmony with others arises when two or more people in these zones intercept. Thus, there can be nothing but honesty and acceptance between them, since harmony with self is undisputably honest to who the individual/situation is (hence nothing is possibly available in that zone to act as a barrier between them).

Okay, definition's done. Now, application. Your desires, preferences, 'personality stamp' on your thoughts and actions are expressions of the bare-bones part of who you are. The lack of harmony within self, by very definition, would involve barriers in this inner core self coming out. Hence, harmony with external factors (people, situations, etc.) is impossible while the self is still unresolved.

That's application. Now, the crux of the situation; the elaboration. Your desire that emerges ("I don't care", "I don't want") is a reflection of the state of harmony imbalance emerging. So, in fact, by refuting aspects of this discussion, you are actually supporting an argument for the necessity of harmony.

I agree though; Hollywood imagery is quite crass and hardly reflective of reality.

The world changes when you do.
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Old 01-13-2012, 06:20 AM   #23
graham christian
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Re: True victory?

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
Liberation by thinking of the unpleasant, instead than of the pleasant.
The liberation is harmony. Thus you do wan't it. LOL!!! What I describe is in fact the same as you, not different paths though for in the face of the unpleasant or pleasant makes no difference my friend.

Facing and dealing with the unpleasant is all part of harmony.

Denying harmony means you become the unpleasant. Is that your goal?

Regards.G.
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Old 01-13-2012, 06:21 AM   #24
Belt_Up
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Re: True victory?

Quote:
attaining mastery by confronting the brutal and the unpleasant.
Like when we practice Aikido. Or indeed read certain posts on Aikiweb and have a chuckle.
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