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Old 02-13-2012, 09:08 PM   #1
Ellis Amdur
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Aint Nikkyo Fascinating!

1. Kiraku-ryu jujutsu has, as one of it's proudest stories, a match between a top-ranked Kodokan judo man and a Kiraku-ryu practitioner (in the 1930's, if I recall correctly). And when the judo man tried to grab him, the Kiraku-ryu man put on an "ara-uma" - (literally - "wild horse" - which was a nikyo).
2. Takeda Sokaku was riding on a train and a big, ill-tempered American named Charles Perry tried either to throw him out of the 1st class car, or have him thrown out, not believing that a shabbily dressed little Japanese guy had a right to be there. Takeda slapped a nikajo (nikkyo) on him. Perry ended up studying a little bit, the first non-Japanese to study Daito-ryu (which could be a whole other discussion - Takeda was so at home with himself in one respect, that he was willing to teach a foreigner in Meiji Japan!)
3. Takeda also went to pay a visit to Ueshiba in 1936. Nakakura Kiyoshi, if I recall correctly, ran outside at the sound of howling. Takeda had a taxi or pedicab driver in a nikajo, thinking he was overcharged. When that was sorted out, he asked where Ueshiba was. When told Osaka, Takeda turned around, and went to the Asahi Newspaper - the rest is history (and there was Ueshiba, dimed out by his own son-in-law).
4. And in reading the story of Shirata sensei, part II - Aikido Journal - we read that Shirata tore the ligaments of a challenger, a very big judo man - using nikajyo.

It is really fascinating to me that in all these occasions - and I'm sure others - the almighty victorious Daito-ryu/aikido technique - - - - -- - is nikkyo.

I've seen the same thing with t'ai chi - a variant of nikkyo is one of their go-to techniques.

One thought is this. This is why MMA is so important! Most modern martial arts, in making it sports or budo, circumscribe the techniques used. If you don't practice something, it can disappear as an option. So when attacked with such a technique, it's a total surprise. It doesn't take a judoka long, if he or she "admits" the possibility of wrist-locks, for a nikkyo to be impossible to apply. BUt one has to be aware. (Similarly, kyokushin-kai karateka didn't practice blows to the face - only kicks. When they came to the muay thai gym I trained, invariably, they got lumped up - they forgot how to protect their face).

I meander, perhaps. I simply struck me, though, about nikkyo. Over and over again, I read about a Daito-ryu, an aikido or a jujutsu victory, and nikkyo is, I think, the most common victory technique.

Ellis Amdur

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Old 02-13-2012, 11:45 PM   #2
Michael Varin
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Re: Aint Nikkyo Fascinating!

I honestly don't know, but...

I always thought it was a yonkyo that Takeda used on Charles Perry.

And apparently so did Ellis!

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote:
Takeda, on the other hand, in 1903, taught Charles Perry Daito-ryu. As written in John Steven's, Aikido: The Way of Harmony, Perry demanded a conductor check the ticket of the shabbily dressed little Japanese man in the first class compartment. Sokaku, offended, confronted Perry, who "brandished his fists." Sokaku put him in a double yonkyo, dropping him to his knees and then throwing him to the end of the car. Perry apologized and asked to learn something of the art. Does this not bespeak well of Takeda? Unlike many of his successors, he was not racist in his teaching - if someone wanted to learn, he taught.
Actually, I really like the general idea of this thread. What we believe is "real" or "effective" is largely determined by what we perceive and how we perceive it.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 02-13-2012, 11:50 PM   #3
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Aint Nikkyo Fascinating!

Whoops! I"m gonna ask around, just to be sure John was accurate. Anyway, the basic thrust of my post still stands - just minus one twist of the wrist.

Ellis

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Old 02-13-2012, 11:59 PM   #4
Michael Varin
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Re: Aint Nikkyo Fascinating!

Absolutely!

I don't know if this will go far as a thread, but hopefully it gives a lot of people a slightly new way to look at their training and some inspiration to discover what is possible.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 02-14-2012, 09:35 AM   #5
Janet Rosen
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Re: Aint Nikkyo Fascinating!

For those who are afraid of being on the receiving end, perhaps it is time to bring back The Incredible Nikkyomatic!
http://www.aikidofaq.com/humor/nikkyomatic.html

Janet Rosen
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Old 02-14-2012, 01:31 PM   #6
Dan Rubin
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Re: Aint Nikkyo Fascinating!

Would a double yonkyo be a hachikyo?
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Old 02-14-2012, 05:23 PM   #7
phitruong
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Re: Aint Nikkyo Fascinating!

first time i met howie popkin, he put a double nikkyo lock on me. it was so smooth that i didn't know it happened until it was too late. it was love as first..."oh crap! i can't let go! and why does the big jew stand there with a big grin on his face!"

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 02-14-2012, 09:41 PM   #8
Takahama
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Re: Aint Nikkyo Fascinating!

Seated nikkyo training is the worst. Simply no escape!
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Old 02-15-2012, 12:33 PM   #9
Scott Harrington
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Re: Aint Nikkyo Fascinating!

I certainly agree that Nikkyo (2nd control, kote-maki, kote zumi) is a great technique. Anything from a sword retaining waza, a very quick and painful wrist grab reversal, even a devastating weapon disarm and throat slash, this is certainly the go-to technique when someone has laid hands on you.

However, on the four examples given by Ellis, I must cry foul. Two of the examples stated are not nikkyo, and certainly not in the spirit of Takeda Sokaku's Daito ryu. Michael Varin points out correctly the Charles Perry incident recounted by Stevens. Of the other Takeda Sokaku occurrence, I somehow do not see the cab driver laying hands on the Daito ryu master (or him allowing that). Which leads us to my favorite technique -- Yonkyo.

Yonkyo (4th control, tekubi oase, ura-kote) is a fabulous technique that truly epitomizes Daito ryu and control of the centerline.

The two accounts where Ellis (a noted Yonkyophobic) incorrectly replaces 2nd for 4th surely demonstrates a philosophical difference between Daito ryu and Aikido; maybe for the better in the dojo, where pain is to be avoided, great pain to be REALLY avoided.

As Takeda Sokaku yabbered with the cab drive, yelling about a supposed overcharge, the Daito ryu master did as his art directed and grabbed the available wrist and applied the yonkyo with a yelp and yowl to his supposed offender. Immediately under control, the man yielded to a superior attack that was so subtle but so effective. YUM YUM.

You see, Takeda Sokaku ATTACKED him. He did not offer his wrist, or his shoulder. He did not subtly get off the line and provoke an energy flow that allowed him to return it in relation to the balance of energy within the universe. He ATTACKED. HE TOOK control of the centerline.

When a Charles Perry ‘dissed' him on the train, Takeda Sokaku's go to tool for resolving the incident was Yonkyo. Painful, controlling but not disabling, and as I like to call it, the "lubricant of Aikijujutsu." (No rude jokes or double entendre there or I will hunt you down and tekubi oase you!)

The idea of attacking to resolve the incident is not unknown in Aikido, but has taken a very far back seat to allowing the bad guy (transmogrified into uke) go ‘first.' In the Budo Renshu (and the better drawn copy from the Yamato ryu) the FIRST technique begins with a flashing simultaneous attack to the side and temple to provoke a flinching block which sets the arm up for an Ikkyo (Ude oase) to pin the opponent.

Yonkyo is less damaging as that simultaneous strike but damn more painful. There is video of the late headmaster Takeda Tokimune applying this technique to current Headmaster Kondo. He howls and rolls around the mat like crazy. I've met Kondo and he is a bada** and you can see in the video this was no aiki-buuny ‘make the instructor look good situation'.

Not to denigrate Aikido, I can see why many shy away from this excrociating waza. Poorly taught, very painful, and not in the current philosophical mainstream, tekubi osae is kept in the curriculum but seldom dusted off and used. However, a friend that has trained with late Abe sensei (the calligraphy teacher to O'sensei) recounted that at Abe's dojo the grabbing attack, (more realistic than most) started with a grab such that the posture was immediately distorted. I have a Daito ryu video pointing out that this is done with a yonkyo addition.

While O'sensei had a great reputation for his strength of grip, I believe that he was really going back to his roots as taught by Takeda Sokaku and just applying 4th control. So the moral of the story is, "If he grabs you, nikkyo, if he pisses you off, yonkyo." Says it all.

Scott Harrington
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Old 02-15-2012, 01:21 PM   #10
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Aint Nikkyo Fascinating!

Scott - a lot of good information there. This thread invites drift, because it was posted in whimsy, so lets clamp down a little more.

I did forget about the proper details of the Perry incident, but Nakakura Kiyoshi witnessed the pedi-cab/taxi driver incident, and I doubt much, given as he was practicing Daito-ryu himself, that he'd mistake a nikyo or a yonkyo. (or nikajyo yonkajyo, if you prefer). Just as it's impermissible for me to replace yonkyo with nikyo in the first Takeda incident, it's not on for you to replace yonkyo in the second,contrary to an eyewitness who was a practitioner of the same art.

And one clarification: I'm not a yonkyophobic - that would entail that I was "afraid" - "phobic" of the technique. So far, I've never seen anything to be afraid of I've simply never experienced it, beyond my tender wrist days as a beginner, that this technique has any effect whatsoever. I'm a "yonkyo-unimpressed-bic"

Terry Dobson stated (I've mentioned this elsewhere) that once he was standing beside O-sensei (then quite elderly) when the latter got angry at someone, and unconsciously grabbed Terry's wrist and squeezed. Terry stated that it felt like a red-hot wire was thrust through his wrist - he iterated that he'd experienced bruising pain from other people's yonkyo, but that this was qualitatively, terrifyingly different. That makes me an "yonkyo-agnostic"

There are two levels to consider:
1. If the person gets kuzushi - which in aiki arts is, frankly, often a manifestation of "aiki-accomodation syndrome" - the uke moving the way he's supposed to so that tori can apply the technique, and YES, this obviously happens a lot in Daito-ryu as well - then the fact that a properly applied and leveraged yonkajyo hurts is no big deal to me. I'd want to see HOW Takeda Tokimune, with his massive hands, got control of Kondo, before I'd be properly impressed by your account. A pro-wrestling cobra twist is incredibly painful, but it certainly requires a lot of mutual assistance (a co-prosperity sphere, so to speak) to make it work. So, even if it leaves the uke squeaking and flopping in pain, I'm not impressed by that.
2. What Takeda seems to have done with Perry. That would be wonderful. I'd love to experience that. I'd love to be in a free-style grappling situation, or better, grappling with strikes, on our feet, and someone can put a yonkyo - or double yonkyo (!!!!) and totally control me. If that can be done - outside of Daito-ryu kata or Aikido "kata," then I'll worship at the Church of Yonkyo.

Ellis Amdur

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Old 02-15-2012, 02:05 PM   #11
Scott Harrington
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Re: Aint Nikkyo Fascinating!

Regarding your "yonkyophobic" inclination, I recall somewhere in your vast and interesting writings where you did not recommend this technique, especially in combat. If I have to I'll look it up.

On the cabbie incident, a close examination of nikkyo is it may be only applied if someone grabs you (you agree there) or you reach across your body and his to grab his, then lift, obtain the proper configuration and apply. A quite time-consuming exercise and open to suki,

Yonkyo can EASILY be applied with one hand, without crossing your body, lifting uke then roll over to nikkyo. This is what I think Takeda Sokaku did there. Same entrance with the Perry incident.

Actually, the proper solution to Tekubi osae came from a pic in one of Stanley Pranin's books of Takeda Tokimune's hand that was the flash of insight into the 'secret' of yonkyo.' It is effectively a one-handed technique with several variants. Not hand size, proper placement.

I have had the great opportunity to train with some excellent martial artists. Some can do and explain to get better. Some can do and you have to figure it out (the proverbial 'steal it') yourself. And some cannot do it and you are on your own. They are still teaching you.

That is what happened to me with yonkyo. At a Yoshinkan seminar, a young, eager, naive nidan (me) raised his hand and asked during a Q & A period whether yonkajo was a valid technique. The responding (quite skilled) senior gave a wandering talk that yes, it's important, need to practice, takes time, yada yada yada. It hit me that not only did he not know how to really do the technique, he didn't have a WAY to teach it. I was off on a quest.

I have used yonkajo in freestyle and unfortunately for me, have had it used on myself by those that I have shown 'how' to do it - usually having me start cussing in pain. In fact, at an Aiki Expo Kondo sensei opened my mind to the 'final completion' of this neat waza. As I have written in the past, you pick up 2 or 3 things and 20 go over your head. You are either not smart enough or it's not your time yet.

On a side note, I almost posted on e-budo on your "An Old interview with Saito Morihito regarding Daito-ryu" on the same issue. There is video of Saito sensei showing a variant shiho nage with a yonkajo assist. I have worked on this to do it soley (sp?)one-handed. Once again, tekubi osae makes alot of techniques easier. Especially the ninin-dori waza.

When we are in the same pew some time, I'll gladly show it to you and you can apply it to me (complete with cussing). As some say, I'll believe when I see it or is it I'll see it when I believe it.

Scott
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Old 02-15-2012, 02:16 PM   #12
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Aint Nikkyo Fascinating!

Sounds good, Scott

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Old 04-05-2012, 12:56 PM   #13
kfa4303
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Re: Aint Nikkyo Fascinating!

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
1. Kiraku-ryu jujutsu has, as one of it's proudest stories, a match between a top-ranked Kodokan judo man and a Kiraku-ryu practitioner (in the 1930's, if I recall correctly). And when the judo man tried to grab him, the Kiraku-ryu man put on an "ara-uma" - (literally - "wild horse" - which was a nikyo).
2. Takeda Sokaku was riding on a train and a big, ill-tempered American named Charles Perry tried either to throw him out of the 1st class car, or have him thrown out, not believing that a shabbily dressed little Japanese guy had a right to be there. Takeda slapped a nikajo (nikkyo) on him. Perry ended up studying a little bit, the first non-Japanese to study Daito-ryu (which could be a whole other discussion - Takeda was so at home with himself in one respect, that he was willing to teach a foreigner in Meiji Japan!)
3. Takeda also went to pay a visit to Ueshiba in 1936. Nakakura Kiyoshi, if I recall correctly, ran outside at the sound of howling. Takeda had a taxi or pedicab driver in a nikajo, thinking he was overcharged. When that was sorted out, he asked where Ueshiba was. When told Osaka, Takeda turned around, and went to the Asahi Newspaper - the rest is history (and there was Ueshiba, dimed out by his own son-in-law).
4. And in reading the story of Shirata sensei, part II - Aikido Journal - we read that Shirata tore the ligaments of a challenger, a very big judo man - using nikajyo.

It is really fascinating to me that in all these occasions - and I'm sure others - the almighty victorious Daito-ryu/aikido technique - - - - -- - is nikkyo.

I've seen the same thing with t'ai chi - a variant of nikkyo is one of their go-to techniques.

One thought is this. This is why MMA is so important! Most modern martial arts, in making it sports or budo, circumscribe the techniques used. If you don't practice something, it can disappear as an option. So when attacked with such a technique, it's a total surprise. It doesn't take a judoka long, if he or she "admits" the possibility of wrist-locks, for a nikkyo to be impossible to apply. BUt one has to be aware. (Similarly, kyokushin-kai karateka didn't practice blows to the face - only kicks. When they came to the muay thai gym I trained, invariably, they got lumped up - they forgot how to protect their face).

I meander, perhaps. I simply struck me, though, about nikkyo. Over and over again, I read about a Daito-ryu, an aikido or a jujutsu victory, and nikkyo is, I think, the most common victory technique.

Ellis Amdur
I can believe all of the accounts above. I know that Nikkyo always seems to be the one technique that gets most peoples attention, particularly skeptics of joint-locks and the like. I love showing it to big karate guys, or football player types. It usually leaves them scratching their head ( and rubbing their wrist). I've also noticed that women seem to respond to it very well, and it generally convinces them that little people can handle big people when properly trained. I've also seen Steven Segeal demonstrating a form of Nikkyo to kids in various you tube clips to help them against would be abductors. Nikkyo seems to have perfect combination of simplicity, efficacy and wonder about it so as to pique peoples interest and keep them learning about Aikido in general.
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Old 05-19-2012, 07:43 AM   #14
Autrelle Holland
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Re: Aint Nikkyo Fascinating!

Speaking of MMA and nikkyo...
Here is a very NASTY form. Aoki demonstrates an applied version (oyo) of a nikkyo variation (henka). It looks like waki gatami or a "rokkyo" type technique, but if you train it, with firm pressure, the pain is definitely felt in the wrist. I believe he calls it "waki otoshi." With good ukemi, and a mean nage, only the wrist would be broken. Otherwise, uke's tension will allow the power of the lock to transfer into the forearm bones and the elbow.

The nikkyo variation I'm referring to is the one where uke's hand position is a palm placed on nage's chest, almost like a shove. The hand is held in place, and without folding the wrist over, nikkyo is applied. If you have a copy of Takemusu Aikido by Morihiro Saito Sensei, refer to pages 166-167 for "Munadori Nikyo Henka 4."
https://picasaweb.google.com/1102273...37246755318114

Here, Aoki demonstrates the variation from a MMA tie up, to get the upper hand in a underhook/overhook scenario. Notice that the person wearing the gloves ENHANCES the technique. Ordinarily, such a glove would make nikkyo harder to do, but in this case, it makes the technique viable since the glove prevents escape.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwM7fAqN6f0

Here, Aoki wins a match in a brutal manner. Under duress, he applies the technique demonstrated above, with a violent twist of the whole body, while, running out to the center of the mat. On some of the MMA forums, most had no idea what he was doing here. It looks like a elbow lock variation. This is a d*ck move, I think, even in competition. His goal was to clearly go for the injury before the submission. The guy NEVER had a chance to tap. Look for yourself and see just when the guy realized his was beaten. Also, look where the injury occurs. Really nasty but effective.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgIuPpUT4fw

Last edited by Autrelle Holland : 05-19-2012 at 07:55 AM.
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Old 05-19-2012, 01:15 PM   #15
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Aint Nikkyo Fascinating!

Autrelle,

That was a great example. I have seen this technique used often in Tomiki knife Rondori.
It is quite dangerous. In fact, judo, if I remember correctly, has made the move illegal as it constitutes a standing arm bar, and the most insignificant torque of the hips renders the opponent's elbow most vulnerable.

Thanks for the clip.
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Old 05-19-2012, 01:29 PM   #16
Anthony Loeppert
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Re: Aint Nikkyo Fascinating!

Quote:
Autrelle Holland wrote: View Post
Speaking of MMA and nikkyo...

Here, Aoki wins a match in a brutal manner. Under duress, he applies the technique demonstrated above, with a violent twist of the whole body, while, running out to the center of the mat. On some of the MMA forums, most had no idea what he was doing here. It looks like a elbow lock variation. This is a d*ck move, I think, even in competition. His goal was to clearly go for the injury before the submission. The guy NEVER had a chance to tap. Look for yourself and see just when the guy realized his was beaten. Also, look where the injury occurs. Really nasty but effective.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgIuPpUT4fw
The video looks like an applied hiji-shime to me...http://youtu.be/D5qw7n1koh8
But this technique is that it is extremely effective and if uke is at all resisting, there isn't much "slack" in the system so the technique isn't forgiving. I remember being called up to demonstrate as uke in class for a hiji shime and I hadn't quite gotten the ukemi down AND my mind wandered at exactly the WRONG time. Oh, nothing snaps (then crumples) you into the present quite like a hiji-shime.

I wouldn't call it a "dick move" though. The guy just left his arm out there and was punching him with the other... it is MMA after all.

Last edited by Anthony Loeppert : 05-19-2012 at 01:35 PM.
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Old 05-20-2012, 12:27 AM   #17
Michael Varin
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Re: Aint Nikkyo Fascinating!

Quote:
Autrelle Holland wrote:
Speaking of MMA and nikkyo...
Here is a very NASTY form. Aoki demonstrates an applied version (oyo) of a nikkyo variation (henka). It looks like waki gatami or a "rokkyo" type technique, but if you train it, with firm pressure, the pain is definitely felt in the wrist. I believe he calls it "waki otoshi." With good ukemi, and a mean nage, only the wrist would be broken. Otherwise, uke's tension will allow the power of the lock to transfer into the forearm bones and the elbow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgIuPpUT4fw
My analysis of that technique is more like Anthony's. The technique was a version of rokkyo (hiji jime, waki gatame), and was applied against the elbow joint; the wrist isn't significantly involved.

It was not a nikyo (including the henka waza that Saito was demonstrating in the link posted), although nikyo flows quite naturally into rokkyo when the opponent begins to straighten the arm.

In line with the more general motivation behind this thread, techniques disappearing as options due to lack of practice or recognizing what is possible, I jumped out of my seat while watching Nate Diaz vs Jim Miller yelling, "There's a musha dori!" Suffice it to say everyone thought I was weird.

At about three minutes of the first round Diaz had two brief, but textbook, opportunities to apply a standing shoulder lock (which I believe used to be taught in BJJ). It really didn't matter because Nate put on such a good performance, but I always root for unexpected things to happen in MMA.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 05-20-2012, 05:43 PM   #18
Autrelle Holland
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Re: Aint Nikkyo Fascinating!

We have worked this in class and found that it is for sure a very viable wrist lock that ALSO has consequences against the elbow. I mean this comment as just a voice of my own practice, not a point of contention to the previous comment.
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Old 05-21-2012, 02:28 PM   #19
Autrelle Holland
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Re: Aint Nikkyo Fascinating!

Grady Lane, a very strong and highly talented Aikidoka, tells this story:

Lane Sensei became interested in Aikido in 1975 after watching the Aikido class that followed his Karate class. He remembers being somewhat unimpressed by what appeared to him as an old man dancing around the mats a bit. After he had watched several classes the instructor invited him to participate in a demonstration. With the bravado of youth and his assurance in his Karate skills he accepted the invitation feeling confidant that the match would be brief. It was. In a matter of seconds he found himself painfully pinned in a wrist lock and quickly recognized that Aikido was definitely an effective martial art. He joined the class and has trained with dedication to Aikido for over 30 years.

He told me this story in person. Above is what comes from his site. He said the technique was nikyo.
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Old 05-25-2012, 03:21 AM   #20
Hellis
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Re: Aint Nikkyo Fascinating!

Frrom - IHTBF - " Kenshiro Abbe - Trying to Catch the Wind"
During our trip, I asked Sensei how he met O-sensei. He said he was travelling across Japan to another judo competition when an old man sat opposite him. He said he was aware that the man was staring at him, and then the man said, "I know who you are!"

Abbe sensei modestly replied "Everyone knows who I am. Who are you?" The man explained who and what he was. Abbe was tired and needed to sleep, but the man continued to talk. Abbe politely asked him to be quiet. The man suddenly stuck his small finger in Abbe's face and demanded, "You are a strong young man. Break my finger." Abbe said he needed to sleep, so he grabbed the man's finger, intending to snap it like a twig. He suddenly found himself on the carriage floor in agony. It was then that he asked Osensei if he could study with him.

Ellis
I did not question Abbe Sensei too much about this event - you just didn't in those days.
I have often wondered if Osensei turned the technique into Nikkyo ? - The more I think about it the more it seems possible.

Henry Ellis
Co-author of `Positive Aikido`
http://britishaikido.blogspot.com/
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