Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Training

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-22-2002, 10:01 AM   #1
Paula Lydon
Dojo: Aikido Shugenkai
Location: Colorado
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 427
Offline
Question direct transmission?

Something I've been puzzling over: A few weeks ago a number of us went out for something to eat after class (and yes, a drink or two). Near the end of the evening one student and Sensei were discussing training; well, the student was voicing her opions loudly concerning her needs. To give her some perspective I said, "I've trained here for over five years and Sensei hasn't worked much with me", which was true, whereas she routinely received personal instruction.
Well, Sensei tapped his forehead and told me I was getting it through direct transmission. Sounds like alien radio waves, or something to do with banking. I'm a westerner and have since tried to read up on this term but without real satisfaction. What is direct transmission? Or what is it hypothetically? Or is it a Sensei way of blowing off students they don't want to spend their time on? Or maybe just a party joke? Yet he seemed sincere... Thoughts anyone? Much appriciated

~~Paula~~
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2002, 10:44 AM   #2
Ali Afium
Dojo: Bakkakan Dojo
Location: Bahrain
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4
Offline
Re: direct transmission?

Sounds more like Tip-Tronic transmission to me. I should know: I have 12 Porsches with such transmissions.... but I still prefer my MG with its worn out gearbox.

I'd be surprised if anyone from your dojo responds to your post as I assume that you're talking about Ikeda Sensei. During a six month stint at Boulder Aikikai I never saw Ikeda Sensei really teach on an individual basis. He'd demo technique and then practice with whatever uke did the demo. Meanwhile, there was a free for all of dumbass, sophomoric (at best) keiko going on during class.

If you're talking about Hofmeister, well, he's got some big britches to fill as of yet.

You might benefit from reading about mid-control, cults and Shinto.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2002, 10:49 AM   #3
mike lee
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 646
Offline
Thumbs down contact

I think you can learn aikido more quickly from "direct transmission," that is, practicing with your teacher one on one. If your teacher is a hands-on type of teacher, then you will be able to get a feel for what aikido really is, provided that your teacher knows what aikido really is.

Older teachers will generally select a few top students to be their uke on a regular basis. They do this for a number of reasons. One of the reasons is to "transmit" the essence of aikido through continuous, long-term contact and practice.

Talking, rationalizing and practicing with those at your own level is the slow way to learn. Finding the highest level teacher you can, and then serving as his uke is the fastest way to learn.

A long time ago, my teacher gave me a valuable piece of advice. He said, "learn to be a good uke, and always volunteer to be the uke for the teacher."

I followed his advice and eventually became the exclusive uke for a shihan in Asia. That experience helped me to progress a great deal in my skill and understanding of aikido, which of course, is a never-ending path. But at least now, since the knowledge has been transmitted to me, I can continue to improve, with or without my teacher's instruction. That, to me, is more valuable than gold.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2002, 11:35 AM   #4
Ali Afium
Dojo: Bakkakan Dojo
Location: Bahrain
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4
Offline
Re: contact

I basically agree with Mike. Ukemi is key. (Good for you, Mike, btw, good for you). However, Most people don't have that sort of access to instructors and despite being interested in aikido aren't interested in that kind of access.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2002, 11:49 AM   #5
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
Location: Barnegaat, NJ
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 893
Offline
direct transmission

Well ...

the point was that you are not as thick headed or at stupid as the other student, so accept the compliment that you are training with the mind as well as the body ...

or ...

you see it, and you can do it.

Direct transmission, no slippage.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2002, 04:30 PM   #6
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,848
Offline
"Direct transmission" in budo usually means that the student experiences his or her teacher firsthand. In aikido this would mean that the student gets to work with the teacher (ie gets thrown around, usually).

I wasn't there to hear what Paula's teacher had to say about this so it's difficult at best to comment on what her teacher meant. However, maybe he meant that "direct transmission" can also take place by watching? Perhaps you can ask him sometime in the future (and let us know his response)...

My own feeling is that taking ukemi from a teacher is one of the best ways to learn from him or her. I think I've said here before that I believe ukemi to be the most important part of aikido practice; in that, I agree fully with that Mike writes above.

One thing, though, is that most teachers are accessible. If you're not understanding something or want to feel that teacher, try turning to him or her and basically saying, "onegaishimasu." I've seen this done in tons of seminars where a student wanted to "feel" what was going on.

Hope that helps, Paula.

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2002, 10:35 PM   #7
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,711
United_States
Offline
Yep, getting the feel of a technique directly from being on the receiving end of Sensei helps a lot.

Direct tranmission often refers to the day the Buddha simply looked at a flower without speaking and someone in the back laughed signifying they had gotten the lesson. The beginning of Zen.

I think you Sensei may have just been paying you a compliment.

Until again,

Lynn

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2002, 08:41 PM   #8
Pretoriano
 
Pretoriano's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Santa Fe
Location: Aragua Venezuela
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 130
Venezuela
Offline
Post

This tread dissapointed me, even Mr. Lynn and Jun where right. 4/10
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2002, 02:32 AM   #9
mike lee
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 646
Offline
no joy

I'm disappointed too. Let's just complain and contribute nothing of consiquence. We can call it Nullifidian Aikido Forum!
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2002, 02:55 AM   #10
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,054
Japan
Offline
Direct Transmission really means just that. You are not getting the knowledge through intermediates.

How much hands on contact the teacher has with you whether through holding you by the hand and leading you through the movements or using you for ukemi is besides the point.

Some students get along just fine by watching, some make you feel like you are in a nursery school. Paula wasn't very clear what she meant by personal instruction - is that special classes or the amount of time spent with the student during class - but yes it does sound like a compliment.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2002, 03:01 AM   #11
Edward
Location: Bangkok
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 803
Thailand
Offline
OFF-TOPIC

Ali,

Do you actually practice in Bahrain? I travel there 2-3 times a year for business and I could never locate an Aikido dojo.

Can you please give me your dojo details?

Sorry to usurpe the thread for personal purposes

Cheers,
Edward
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2002, 03:47 AM   #12
mike lee
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 646
Offline
skill

Although in zen they talk about transmitting The Mind to an individual mind, I don't think that this analogy can be applied to skill -- with the exception of the very rare and occassional prodigy.

For example, does anyone believe that they could learn to play classical music on a piano simply by watching a master play? If that was true, we could all play classical music on a piano. The term "master" would cease to have any meaning.

It's the same with aikido. You can watch a master perform a technique, but then when you try to do it, you find it to be very difficult. The only way, with the piano, aikido, or any other skill is through practice.

Common folks -- let's get real!
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2002, 04:08 AM   #13
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,054
Japan
Offline
Re: skill

Quote:
Originally posted by mike lee
It's the same with aikido. You can watch a master perform a technique, but then when you try to do it, you find it to be very difficult. The only way, with the piano, aikido, or any other skill is through practice.

Common folks -- let's get real!
I thought it was a given that the student watching would then attempt to do - if they were that far off they would hopefully get the help they need.

Some students just require more intervention - others watch closely and require less. Both are getting the direct transmission - that at least was my point.

If watching were all that was required then buying a video would be direct transmission - now wouldn't that be something.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2002, 06:04 AM   #14
Genex
 
Genex's Avatar
Dojo: Warrington Seishin Kai
Location: Warrington, England
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 155
Offline
our sensei will pick one of us, show a technique several times from several angles and speeds and then will walk around watching and giving guidence to the whole class while we practice this with our partners, he also encourages us to try and make one technique turn into another so an atemi will be blocked and turned into an Ikkyo or Iriminage, or you could strike back or something, he seems to favour the painful pins like Yonkyo etc... which are really good fun espesh if your a bit of a sadist like me

i dont know about this direct transmition but it sounds wierd
pete

like having your brains smashed out by a slice of lemon wrapped round a large gold brick. - The hitchhikers guide to the galaxy on the Pan-galactic Gargleblaster!
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2002, 08:22 AM   #15
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Ai symbol

Hi all,

As far as the direct transmission thing goes, I've realised that in some styles of Qigong and Feng Shui, teachers may speak about a principle called Yi, which has to do with oral transmission of certain concepts and secrets that are mainly of a mental/psychological nature that can be applied in a physical form.

As far as they are concerned, videos and books do not contain this "Yi" as strongly as the "breath" or "Qi of the teacher". As such, these concepts are not conveyed except by word of mouth on a personal basis. Books and videos are hardly, if ever done on these concepts, and publications are almost never encouraged by some masters.

I have personally experienced this phenomena while training under two different Qigong teachers. It was really strange to tell you the truth. One was very adamant about not having any kind of published information, for fear of losing the quality and spirit inherent in the training.

The other was a bit more modern in thinking and utilises videos and books, but warns that any practitioner should be trained first by himself personally, or one of a few people he has trained to teach his style of Qigong.

Hope this applies to what we're talking about.
My 2 cents.
L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2002, 08:16 PM   #16
Pretoriano
 
Pretoriano's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Santa Fe
Location: Aragua Venezuela
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 130
Venezuela
Offline
Thumbs down

I agree with Mr. Larry Camejo, and about selling direct transmision trough videos that's what I call A FAKE.

Yeap, the seed
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2002, 11:36 PM   #17
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,848
Offline
I've been reading Karl Friday's "Legacies of the Sword" and found this following passage which he attributes to Issai Chozan's "Neko no Myojutsu":
Quote:
The teacher only transmits the technique and illuminates its principle. To acquire its truth is within oneself. [In Zen Buddhism] this is called self-attainment; or it may also be called mind-to-mind transmission or special transmission outside the texts. Learning in this fashion does not subvert the doctrines [of the texts], for even a teacher could not transmit [in that way]. Nor is such learning found only in the study of Zen, for in the meditations of the Confucian sages and in all of the arts, mastery lies in mind-to-mind transmission, special transmission outside the texts. Texts and doctrine merely point to what one already has within oneself but cannot see on one's own. Understanding is not bestowed by the teacher. Teaching is easy; listening to doctrines is also easy; but to find with certainty what is within oneself, to make this one's own, is difficult. [In Zen] this is called seeing one's nature. Enlightenment is an awakening from the dream of delusion; it is the same as understanding. This does not change.
Just thought the above was interesting and resonated, perhaps, with this thread...

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2002, 06:16 PM   #18
Paula Lydon
Dojo: Aikido Shugenkai
Location: Colorado
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 427
Offline
Jun, thank's for the adjunct. Every insight or info adds a facet. Could be why he tapped his forehead...although I sure don't feel that quick or clever. Then again, maybe I don't have to be.

~~Paula~~
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2002, 03:01 PM   #19
Robert Cowham
Dojo: East Sheen Aikido and Kashima No Tachi
Location: London, UK
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 232
Offline
I experienced direct transmission of a sort in a couple of ways. I have been to the Shiseikan in Tokyo a couple of times and studied Kashima Shinryu kenjutsu with Inaba sensei (link to Karl Friday's book - although Inaba sensei studied with previous head of KSR and is independent of current head - another story).

Anyway, when Inaba sensei takes ukemi for you in kumitachi he is able to bring things out of people (myself and others) that they can't produce in other situations. It is a combination of pressure and intensity that achieves a higher level of performance - but also leaves behind a feeling or experience that is beneficial.

In another situation I have had him work on me while I was sitting seiza. He basically prodded me, manipulated me, stretched me and "put ki" into me for 5 minutes or so. This left me with a very powerful feeling and shortly thereafter while practicing for a demonstration the next day (one on one randori), I was much more effective than I had been - noticed by myself and uke. The feeling lasted a while (but unfortunately had gone by the demo the next day!).

I have heard others talk about him being able to give people feelings which in a way are a challenge that they then need to learn how to generate themselves (which takes years).

So, I believe it exists. I also believe as others above, that being around good teachers as uke or whatever brings good results.

Robert
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2002, 02:58 AM   #20
mike lee
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 646
Offline
If you focus on the "feelings" you get from certain teachers, and then try to repeat those "feelings," you will not be able to progress very much. This is because every moment is different.

A true understanding of your art must be developed in order for the knowledge to "stick."

People make the same mistake when learning meditation. They try to repeat certain "feelings" that they had during a particular training session. But feelings are like snowflakes; each is different. Some are dramatically different and some are just slightly different -- but they're all different. Trying to make an exact replica is unnatural!

So, the most important thing we can learn when training in the arts is to learn the training method, stick with it, and expand on it. Of course, high-level teachers can show us high level-training methods. The "feelings" that we get from training are secondary. If you focus on them you will miss the point.

To a mystic, his methods are purely practical. He knows that life is short, and he has no time for nonsense.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2002, 07:15 PM   #21
Robert Cowham
Dojo: East Sheen Aikido and Kashima No Tachi
Location: London, UK
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 232
Offline
Mike, I agree with some of what you are saying but not all.

For me, I have been encouraged by the feelings "given" to me in situations above to follow the practice method which (in this case by Inaba sensei) is also given.

So the feelings have value. However, I am totally in agreement with you that we must develop our own understanding for any lasting value.

In this respect, one of the most important yardsticks by which I measure a dojo/teacher is by how good the senior students are - this shows whether the teacher has a good method and has been able to impart it (and thus there is a chance for me too to learn).

I particularly like it if the senior students are not just carbon copies of the teacher! (Underlying principle is the same but they express the principles in their own manner consistent with body type/interest etc).
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Please Direct.... Lyle Bogin General 3 08-30-2006 10:11 AM
what kind of federation? jss General 2 09-29-2005 01:46 PM
Article: Transmission in Aikido, Part II by George S. Ledyard AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 8 01-14-2005 12:56 AM
Article: Transmission in Aikido by George S. Ledyard AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 14 10-04-2004 11:05 AM
refusing a grading Kung Fu Liane Testing 39 05-09-2003 03:53 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:39 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate