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Old 07-20-2004, 10:26 AM   #76
markwalsh
Dojo: Airenjuku Brighton
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Re: Getting High On The Mat!

I try and stay away from both as they choke you man!

Humour disclaimer: Previous statements were written by an non intoxicated individual in a vain attempt to seem clever, please do not reply with anger as its kind of heavy dude!
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Old 07-20-2004, 11:07 AM   #77
"guest35786"
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Smile Re: Getting High On The Mat!

Humour is great! Thanks for that :-)
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Old 07-20-2004, 11:23 AM   #78
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Re: Getting High On The Mat!

Seriously though - I think this thread has been running for a long time as there are genuine confusions over the relationship between modern western lifestyles - MJ prozac etc and living life with "Ki Tao." I would be very interested to hear comments from someone who knows some of the answers!
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Old 07-20-2004, 12:02 PM   #79
Michael Neal
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Re: Getting High On The Mat!

Whats wrong with being judgemental? Everyone is judgemental about something. Why is it Ok for you to be judgemental and not other people?

Quote:
I try and stay away from both as they choke you man!
Yea, I am pretty sure a Judo class would be a quick buzz kill.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 07-20-2004 at 12:06 PM.
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Old 07-20-2004, 01:12 PM   #80
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Re: Getting High On The Mat!

Being judgemental may be ok... if everyone does it - it doesn't make it righ - but then again that's a judgement in itself! So I reckon you are right! You win Neal!

Do you think people are confusing being judgemental (which is really ok) with being personal (which is really not)? Calling MJ use damaging to the Uke is judgemental - but calling an individual who takes MJ an idiot is _ personal_...

Views?
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Old 07-20-2004, 01:31 PM   #81
Michael Neal
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Re: Getting High On The Mat!

Hey I was an idiot once as well so don't be too offended
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Old 07-20-2004, 02:02 PM   #82
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: Getting High On The Mat!

There are a lot of interesting thoughts here. My thought is I would not care to practice with someone that uses illegal drugs. I do not care to associate with a person that uses illegal drugs. This is all unimportant as it doesn't address the question at hand.

I would not like to practice with anyone "high" whether or not the "high" was induced by a legal or illegal drug. Saftey is an issue and being high, in my opinion, is being impaired. Impaired partners are a detriment to themselves as well as their partners.

Lyle Laizure
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Deru kugi wa uta reru
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Old 07-20-2004, 02:19 PM   #83
suren
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Re: Getting High On The Mat!

Well, I don't know who is idiot in that situation, but I know what would my former karate teacher do. The guy would be working as a punching bag for the rest of the class. Even after many years we stopped practicing, when guys met him and were smoking cigarettes (not MJ) they momentarily dropped them. Those guys were already in their mid 20-th at that time.

I think the teacher should be so far from that and has so much authority that no student should even think of acting that way.
I believe my current aikido teacher is that type of person, otherwise I would not train with him.

If I were you I would change the dojo if that's possible. If there is no other (or better) aikido dojo in your area I would consider other martial arts.
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Old 07-20-2004, 06:15 PM   #84
stuartjvnorton
 
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Re: Getting High On The Mat!

I smile about the whole showing up drunk part.
At my first dojo, I only ever saw 2 relatively senior students turn up to a class drunk.
Sensei called on them as uke & proceeded to pound the stuffing out of them for the entire class.
A lesson well learnt by all... ;-)
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Old 07-21-2004, 04:13 PM   #85
rendshakir
 
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Re: Getting High On The Mat!

This is a very interesting thread! Would be interested to hear experience of someone who has used marijuana and practiced aikido? Does it take you further away from ki? They say ecstacy makes you love everyone and everything - a shortcut to ki?!!!
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Old 09-28-2005, 04:01 PM   #86
Rink
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Re: Getting High On The Mat!

Greetings,

I don't have the time at the moment to read every post, so I will make my comment short.
I read the first few post and saw that nobody had
also considered the fact that there is more then one
kind of Cannabis.
Cannabis Sativa is known as the
"Sacrament" or Sacred Herb. It is used in many different religions around the world to enhance meditative, spirituality,
and awareness experiences. Some of the most commonly heard about of these are the Coptic Church (christian), Ras Tafari (followers of Jah Haile Selassie) Cantheist religions also include religions of India and China including some forms of Buddhism (See http://www.cannabis.net/thc/ )
Not to mention almost all forms of Shamanic practices (Native American, European, African, South American etc.) use cannabis in one form or another, and if not; they almost always have a substitute.
Cannabis Sativa is the type of Marijuana that produces
the 'High' effect and provides alot more mental stimulation then Cannabis Indica. It is also the type that is used by alot of philosophical or spiritually driven people.
Cannabis Indica on the other hand produces the 'Stoned' effect which is alot more of a 'body high', the type where the stereotypical 'stoner' is fingered. Lazy, Couch potato etc. (Most cannabis users prefer Sativa, as it ensures a much more mentally charged time.) People who complain that marijuana "just puts them to sleep" smoked Indica, and missed out on an incredible experience, especially if it was going to be used in conjunction with meditation or some other such thing. I think that anyone who has the slightest bit of knowledge, and common sense knowns that Alcohol is incredibly more dangerous then Marijuana and it's intoxifying effects are far more unpleasent.
I personally am pro-marijuana/hemp/etc. However it is extremly important for me to note that I do not condone using it while practicing anything martial, nor do I think it is ok for anyone to drive while under the influence of marijuana or any other such thing. Smoking (with or without) students, friends, others is completly acceptable, but it should be off the mat, for the most part.
Well just the short version my opimion, Thanks for reading.
Edward Stapleton.
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Old 09-28-2005, 05:22 PM   #87
SeiserL
 
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Re: Getting High On The Mat!

Quote:
Edward Stapleton wrote:
However it is extremly important for me to note that I do not condone using it while practicing anything martial, nor do I think it is ok for anyone to drive while under the influence of marijuana or any other such thing.
IMHO, there is no explanation, rationalization, or justification for wanting or needing to live life in an altered state of consciousness.

Yes, as a matter of fact, I do live my life clean and sober.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 09-28-2005, 06:08 PM   #88
aikido funky monkey
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Ai symbol Re: Getting High On The Mat!

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote:
Practicing Aikido in any state of altered consciousness is very dangerous and extremely inconsiderate of those you train with! I would refuse to train with you.

Until again (if you're clean and sober),

Lynn
I agree with you Lynn. so far this is the closest anyone has got to sharing my opinion. Go Lynn
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Old 09-28-2005, 06:19 PM   #89
Qatana
 
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Re: Getting High On The Mat!

I am a medical marijuana patient. I cannot take sleep medications- they make me want to hurt people. I cannot take antidepressants- they make me want to hurt people. I do not want to hurt people, so I smoke pot and I train in aikido. And would not consider stepping on the mat within two hours of consuming, just like with food.
I once had a flashback in the middle of a seminar. I left the mat. period.
Everybody reacts differently. If my cousin hadn't been smoking pot every day in college, would she still have graduated Top of her Class at Cornell?

Q
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www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 09-28-2005, 07:38 PM   #90
Rink
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Re: Getting High On The Mat!

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote:
IMHO, there is no explanation, rationalization, or justification for wanting or needing to live life in an altered state of consciousness.

Yes, as a matter of fact, I do live my life clean and sober.
I guess to clarify my point,
"What people do on their own time, is their own business"
and I do not feel that anyone, has the right to ever interefere
(with the exception of harm to another person) with what someone else is doing in private.

For those who think that just not drinking alcohol, or smoking marijuana, or other such substance is living life 'clean and sober'
there is a whole world of other intoxifying agents we ingest every day, thats makes you mistaken. Processed sugars, fat, caffeine, nicotine, oxygen bars, even the air we breath, practically every food group has some natural chemical in it that alters our minds in one way or another. If you ever cook with water from the tap, or drink bottled water (yes bottled water, the only truely pure water is water that you have filterd at least twice and has not been stored in plastic, aluminum or other such containers) People who have eaten nothing but meat all their lives, start eating a primarily vegetable diet, and 'feel unlike they have ever before' , same goes with people who have been eating supermarket foods their entire lives, and now eat organic.
All of these external resources preform some form of altered state wether you feel them or not. Now my question to you is,
If we know, and it is proven that all these external un-natural body-degrading 'phenomena' and are consumed on a regular basis, not necessarily by the person reading this, but just in general, why is it that the most natural and safe alternative for enjoyable recreation, spirituality, and other such means is so looked down upon? I think the fact that marijuana has never caused a death in recorded history(1) and that alcohol causes 85,000 + deaths a year(2)! in the United States alone combined with the knowledge that Alcohol is a factor in more then 3,000,000 violent crimes(3) in just the U.S. a year and that 40% of all cases of Rape and Sexual assult involve alcohol(3)
With all this proven information, I would think marijuana would be embraced instead of rejected so adimently. This is not to say that I think everyone should smoke marijuana or that people should be high all their lives this is to merely say that if you want to get down to it, the effects Cannabis has on the human body are less harmful and altering, then (pick your anything here) lets just say ........ smog for instance.

Now I havent even touched on the subjects of Medical Marijuana,
Hemp, and others for if I do, I wil be typing all day, and by that time you would have thrown your monitor out the window because I tend to rant, and nobody wants to read all that. And I apologize if I have done so already in this post. Although if anyone would like to further this conversation in a non-judgemental, productive, and pleasent way I would be more then happy to save the poor readers of this topic my opinions and take this to email. You can message me for the address.

Anyway Thanks for reading this, I hope you enjoyed!
Edward Stapleton

Supporting Evidence
1. American Medical Association
2. Institute of Medicine
3. U.S. Dept. of Justice

Please note this reply was in response to a multitude of previous posts I read, and was not directed at any one individual.
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Old 09-29-2005, 07:16 AM   #91
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Getting High On The Mat!

Thank you for your post, Edward. There is a thread in the open discussions forum you may want to check out. Your contributions would be most welcome (by me anyway) there.

My own opinion is that doing anything illegal involves too much risk to the quality of my life. I would not want to train with another person while high either. But I do wonder about all the fuss over this topic when I see posts like Edward's. At times it seems like a religious argument.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 09-29-2005, 08:27 AM   #92
SeiserL
 
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Re: Getting High On The Mat!

I may be a bit rigid in my POV.

As a recovering addict, I am the only one from my using days still alive and I don't really remember those days.

As a counselor of 28 years, I have never seen where altered states of consciousness has lead to more intimacy or a productive life. I have seen its long-term destructive effects.

IMHO, this isn't about legality or religious injunction. This is about my own personal opinion based on years of personal and professional cause-and-effect experience and observation.

Okay, I admit it, I still drink coffee. I'll go for sainthood next time around.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 09-29-2005, 08:44 AM   #93
LinSuHill
 
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Re: Getting High On The Mat!

Hey, Jo... Just as an off-topic aside, isn't your signature quotation from a Discworld book by Terry Pratchet? I'm groping for the title but can't recall...

Last edited by LinSuHill : 09-29-2005 at 08:47 AM.

LinSu

To get back one's youth one has merely to repeat one's follies.
~ Oscar Wilde
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Old 09-29-2005, 08:55 AM   #94
Mark Gibbons
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Re: Getting High On The Mat!

Thief of Time. Now there is a group of martial artists.

Mark
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Old 09-29-2005, 09:11 AM   #95
Qatana
 
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Re: Getting High On The Mat!

In my dojo, its actually Bill, 76 year-old Fourth Dan. But yes, LuTze, fastest janitor in the monastery...

Q
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www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 09-29-2005, 09:57 AM   #96
James Davis
 
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Re: Getting High On The Mat!

Quote:
Rend Shakir wrote:
This is a very interesting thread! Would be interested to hear experience of someone who has used marijuana and practiced aikido? Does it take you further away from ki? They say ecstacy makes you love everyone and everything - a shortcut to ki?!!!
From what I've seen, X is a shortcut to dancing until your brain fries or just being couched out. It's also no fun when people come down and start crying because their brain is incapable of letting them be happy (no seratonin). Sure, it makes you love everybody - including people that you shouldn't hang around with.
The shortcut to "soft ki" is relaxation, not house music.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 09-29-2005, 12:51 PM   #97
bogglefreak20
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Re: Getting High On The Mat!

I got this from aikidofaq.com:

Dojo Etiquette
Proper observance of etiquette is as much a part of your training as is learning techniques. Please take the following guidelines seriously.
1. When entering or leaving the dojo, it is proper to bow in the direction of O Sensei's picture, the kamiza, or the front of the dojo. You should also bow when entering or leaving the mat.
2. No shoes on the mat.
3. Be on time for class.If you do happen to arrive late, sit quietly in seiza on the edge of the mat until the instructor grants permission to join practice.
4. If you should have to leave the mat or dojo for any reason during class, approach the instructor and ask permission.
5. Avoid sitting on the mat with your back to the picture of O Sensei or the kamiza. Also, do not lean against the walls or sit with your legs stretched out. (Either sit in seiza or cross- legged.)
6. Remove watches, rings and other jewelry before practice.
7. Do not bring food, gum, or beverages with you into the dojo.
8. Please keep your finger and toe nails cut short.
9. Please keep talking during class to a minimum. What conversation there is should be restricted to one topic -- Aikido.
10. Carry out the directives of the instructor PROMPTLY. Do not keep the rest of the class waiting for you!
11. Do not engage in rough-housing or needless contests of strength during class.
12. Keep your training uniform clean, in good shape, and free of offensive odors.
13. Please pay your membership dues promptly. If, for any reason, you are unable to pay your dues on time, talk with the person in charge of dues collection. Sometimes special rates are available for those experiencing financial hardship.
14. Do not change your clothes on the mat.
15. Remember that you are here to learn, and not to gratify your ego. An attitude of receptivity and humility (though not obsequiousness) is therefore advised.
16. Preserve common-sense standards of decency and respect at all times.


To me the rules above speak of Respect & Discipline. Not all dojos share the same rules, but up to a point they are bound to have some sort of guidelines for current and future members to follow.

As I see it, every Aikidoka should pay respect to the art itself, to the Founder, to his/her Sensei and to fellow Aikidoka. Making a decision to show up at practice in any other state except sober is in my opinion a violation of this rule. Suppose I come to my partner in a dirty dogi/with 2inch nails/smell of alcohol/weed/old sweat/... - can I honestly expect anyone not to see me as offensive? I am entering into someone's personal space, into an intimate relationship and I fail to be even a tad considerate to that person. Can I expect to be greeted with a smile and a kind dispossition?

One's personal freedom is limited by the freedom of our fellow-men. So it's not OK to do whatever you want just because we're in a democracy. It's OK to do whatever you want, as long as you remain respectful of other people's freedom. Otherwise you're not a spokesman for democracy, you're just being selfish.

And as for discipline, the answer seems to be even easier. When you become a member of any kind of a social group, you willingly accept some sort of rules. It doesn't matter whether we speak of laws, religious commandments or rules of conduct in a public library. One's personal freedom is always limited, even in a democracy you are obliged to follow rules. I don't suppose any dojo speaks explicitly of drug use, but it's our responsibility to use common sense and respect the SENSE in which the rules were written.

As for those that use substances (any kind) for medical purposes I believe that even in such a situation one does not have to be "under the influence" 24hrs/day, 7days/week. If I'm mistaken, please enlighten me.

May I just say that I would seriously reconsider training in a dojo where there was little or no respect & discipline present.

Beatus Qui Venit In Nomine Domini!
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Old 09-29-2005, 04:41 PM   #98
emma.mason15
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Re: Getting High On The Mat!

Ive gotta comment here ....
dope does limit reaction times ... although the user does not feel the effect .... and I also have to say ... ive trained with a hangover .... and I was slow and sluggish ... dope is a drug ... and drugs in the dojo ... HUGE no no!!!
no matter what the curcumstances ...
Thats all folks!

Dance your cares away .... worry for another day ... let the music play .... down in fraggle rock!

when bored ... do as I do. Poke a patient!
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Old 09-29-2005, 09:42 PM   #99
Lorien Lowe
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Re: high on the mat

Quote:
I think practicing drunk is worse that practicing stoned - more loss of motor and impulse control, also drunks smell bad. What about people who reek of cigarette smoke on the mat? - or does that go in the same category as BO?
Stoners can smell pretty darn bad, too.
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Old 09-29-2005, 09:55 PM   #100
Rink
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Re: high on the mat

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote:
Stoners can smell pretty darn bad, too.
All though an extremely stereotypical and incorrect statement,
I think some fairness, and a bit of understanding is in order.
It is not 'stoners' that smells it is the person, who happens to smoke marijuana. Let us remember that the majority of people who consume cannabis (in whatever form) are normal everyday people, with normal everyday jobs, who do normal everyday things.

Eddie
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