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Old 11-09-2011, 09:29 AM   #1
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I'd like to add that yes, we do pay Dan, but by the time he gets out here and covers air, hotel, and other costs, there is either little or nothing left. He ends making a lot less then minimum wage every time he visits - but of course the compensation is getting to see us .

Best,

Chris
Dear Chris,
I have difficulty in believing that D.H works for minimum wage[as you state ].Since the fees for D.H /dojo course fees are approx $175 dollars and even if we assume that there is a limit of say 25 people the income base on these figures is $4375.Now I assume there are expenses. Hall hire , travel etc. Surely if a dojo hosts D.H,the said dojo would arrange D.Hs transport, food,a place to stay plus of course the little bit of hospitality?Now at the end of the day if you /others /D.H asks for and he receives the minimum rate of 6 bucks per hr three things are possible1. D.H is extremely benevolent and does not rip anyone off financially.2.Your overall expenses are too high leaving no meat on the bone.3.Somebody somewhere should be given an Oscar for creative accountancy.
Of course you could state that what D.H receives is a personal matter .I have no problem with that. I am just curious at the assertion made by you regarding the low rate per hour given to D.H .If this is indeed the rate per hrD,H might be better washing dishes in MCDonalds[just a joke ]. Feel free to either comment or not here. Cheers, Joe.
 
Old 11-09-2011, 09:59 AM   #2
Chris Li
 
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Chris,
I have difficulty in believing that D.H works for minimum wage[as you state ].Since the fees for D.H /dojo course fees are approx $175 dollars and even if we assume that there is a limit of say 25 people the income base on these figures is $4375.Now I assume there are expenses. Hall hire , travel etc. Surely if a dojo hosts D.H,the said dojo would arrange D.Hs transport, food,a place to stay plus of course the little bit of hospitality?Now at the end of the day if you /others /D.H asks for and he receives the minimum rate of 6 bucks per hr three things are possible1. D.H is extremely benevolent and does not rip anyone off financially.2.Your overall expenses are too high leaving no meat on the bone.3.Somebody somewhere should be given an Oscar for creative accountancy.
Of course you could state that what D.H receives is a personal matter .I have no problem with that. I am just curious at the assertion made by you regarding the low rate per hour given to D.H .If this is indeed the rate per hrD,H might be better washing dishes in MCDonalds[just a joke ]. Feel free to either comment or not here. Cheers, Joe.
Dan pays all of his expenses himself out what he gets in fees. This time we had, IIRC, 14 paying attendees. That's about $2,450. Airfare between Boston and Honolulu runs $700 to $800, depending on what you get - that leaves about $1,700. Hotel in Waikiki for a week is going to run about $1000 - that leaves about $700. Rental car for a week runs at least $300-$400. That leaves maybe $300. Then he's got to eat - we pick up what meals we can, but he resists letting us buy for him and sneaks money into the pot - also we're not with him for breakfast and lunch during the week. After food for the week, if he eats light, you're looking at maybe $100-$150. He taught two 10 hour workshop days and then four free evening sessions of at least 4 hours each.

Do the math.

And that doesn't even cover venue costs, which we cover out of our own pockets.

Best,

Chris

 
Old 11-09-2011, 10:56 AM   #3
Keith Larman
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

And as a self-employed person myself, let me also point out that every day someone like me is away from home, away from their main business, they are generally not generating income. Some of us don't get paid vacation days. I've gone to events to give lectures in the past. Sometimes folk will help with covering some of the expenses. But in the end rarely does it ever make economic sense to do these things. Even if I walk away with a small bit of extra cash in my pocket usually I also had a couple days at least of preparation and lost income leading up to it. Not to mention travel days, etc. That is income *not* earned. Lost. I *always* lose money. It *always* costs me in the long run. I do the things I do simply because I feel I should share what I know when I can. So I do when I can afford to do it and don't when I can't.

Just my own experience...

 
Old 11-09-2011, 11:10 AM   #4
Chris Li
 
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
And as a self-employed person myself, let me also point out that every day someone like me is away from home, away from their main business, they are generally not generating income. Some of us don't get paid vacation days. I've gone to events to give lectures in the past. Sometimes folk will help with covering some of the expenses. But in the end rarely does it ever make economic sense to do these things. Even if I walk away with a small bit of extra cash in my pocket usually I also had a couple days at least of preparation and lost income leading up to it. Not to mention travel days, etc. That is income *not* earned. Lost. I *always* lose money. It *always* costs me in the long run. I do the things I do simply because I feel I should share what I know when I can. So I do when I can afford to do it and don't when I can't.

Just my own experience...
That's true, and Dan is also self-employed and not earning during the time that he takes to share with us.

Here's an interesting exercise - Moriteru Ueshiba visited Hawaii this year. His fee alone was significantly more than the entire intake from Dan's workshop. In addition, all of his expenses were covered - his first class airfare from Japan was also significantly more than the entire intake from Dan's workshop all by itself. Ocean front suite in Waikiki - that alone was also significantly more than the entire intake from Dan's workshop.

Also had to pay expenses and fees (airfare, hotel, food, etc.) for the Otomo that has to travel with him.

He taught 3 one hour classes, no free classes. Hundreds of people were on the mat, so actual contact time was measured in seconds per person. Most people had no actual hands-on contact at all.

As to what he can teach you in contrast to Dan - well, I'll leave that question as an exercise for later .

And since this is his job, he doesn't lose any income by coming here.

I'm picking on him to make a point - but the same point could be made for most of the name-brand Shihan and their large seminars, which cost about the same but give you less than 0.00001% of the value.

I have no idea why the money things seems to be such a hard thing for people to understand.

Best,

Chris

 
Old 11-09-2011, 12:14 PM   #5
phitruong
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post

I have no idea why the money things seems to be such a hard thing for people to understand.

Chris
i was going to give up my day time job and be a full time aiki teacher. i was looking forward to fame and fortune, hot babes, then possibly my own reality TV show. now, i have to rethink. i might be able to do it part-time, weekend and holiday. of course i need to know a bit about aiki first, but then again, most aikido folks won't know the different anyway.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
 
Old 11-09-2011, 12:15 PM   #6
Nicholas Eschenbruch
Dojo: TV Denzlingen
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Re: How Much Dan Gets Paid

I offered Dan a meal after a course without knowing him well. I got a very stern, unhappy look and a demanding "Are you trying to do the Sensei thing here?", with the clear implication that "Yes Sensei" was the wrong answer. A tense moment passed and then he was apparently happy I was just thankful for what I had learned. We had a great evening. Dan's teaching is, at its heart, a lot about being friends, and, in my yet limited experience, he accepts no other currency.

I get very very tired of people accusing him of making a fast buck. Its just ridiculous, and embarrasing for those who try that kind of slander.

Ignore him if you don't like what he says and does, I did that for some years as well. Accuse him of not answering pms and email, of attempting to blow people's mental fuses through extended training sessions, even accuse him of holding simplistic views on aikido history... as I have also done .. but pulling the money joker is just a cowardish (yes, I said that) way of not engaging with what he does. Get yourself a better reason.

Last edited by Nicholas Eschenbruch : 11-09-2011 at 12:18 PM.
 
Old 11-09-2011, 12:29 PM   #7
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
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Re: How Much Dan Gets Paid

This whole thread strikes me as highly unseemly. Is Dan's compensation any of your business? I'm of the opinion it's a matter between Dan and those he trains. If you're not one of them, I expect you've got better things to concern yourself with.

The whole topic only came up because some accusations were made (by those who hadn't met him) that he was getting rich off of selling snake oil. Which handed a ROTFLMAO moment to those who have met him, but was otherwise pretty far out of bounds.

At least one of the people making the accusations doesn't post here anymore. I'd like to suggest we banish the topic, too.
 
Old 11-09-2011, 12:36 PM   #8
gregstec
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Re: How Much Dan Gets Paid

WHAT!!!!! you guys actually give him money? All I ever give him is a large amount of grief, a good time, and the biggest challenge of his life in trying to make me understand anything Now that you have established this precedence, I guess I will have to start giving him money now too

On a serious note, those that actually believe Dan is in this for money really do not have a good grasp of what the man is all about - your loss, not mine.

Greg
 
Old 11-09-2011, 12:42 PM   #9
woudew
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Re: How Much Dan Gets Paid

All i give him is a headache.

PS
at OP, do you really care how much money Dan is making?
 
Old 11-09-2011, 01:24 PM   #10
lipyeow
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Re: How Much Dan Gets Paid

Since i had similar accounting experience organizing Sam Chin's workshop, I can attest that what Chris says is true.

In fact i think the number that Chris quoted for airfare from east coast to Honolulu is way too low. More realistic is about 900-1000 USD from east coast to Honolulu. The rest of the math is not that hard. So really, 175 USD for a weekend seminar is not exorbitant. It barely covers cost assuming a 20 participant workshop. If you have a 100 participant ... that's a different story ...

Lipyeow
 
Old 11-09-2011, 02:39 PM   #11
Ernesto Lemke
Dojo: Seikokan , Leeuwarden
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Re: How Much Dan Gets Paid

I also feel a need to respond but, considering the heated debates surrounding Dan and his credibilities, by now I fully expect that all and any atempt to offer even the most sensible of counter-arguments or explanations, are likely to not be met with any open mind.

I don't recall similar questions being asked, now or before, that concerned your average Aikido Sensei. This could have gone via PM too. Now the OP makes it appear as if the public at large stands to benefit of this "knowledge."

Ernesto
 
Old 11-09-2011, 03:24 PM   #12
Marc Abrams
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Re: How Much Dan Gets Paid

I like my pm chats with Joe. I think that he is an upfront, honest person who has no problems asking questions that some people might be uncomfortable with. Dan has a genuine passion for what he does. He does not turn that passion into a money machine. Dan and Joe are both men who are upfront and have a great deal of integrity. I would put money on the first round of suds that both of these men would walk away from meeting each other, liking each other.

Joe does have a right to flesh out that question. By the same token, Joe should accept that Dan really is not making any appreciable money on what he is doing. Both of these men are dedicated to what they do. I can only hope that they meet sooner, rather than later so that find the common ground among them. I too, had my "run-ins" with Dan on the web early on. I fully acknowledged to him that I was wrong in my position when I met him and saw & felt what he could do. Dan has become a trusted friend whom I fully enjoy training under every chance that I get.

Now that we know:
1) Dan is not making a living off of these seminars. Actually, he is losing potential earnings from his real job.
2) Both men are men of integrity and dedicated to what they do.
3) Both men have no problems stating their positions and asking their questions.

We now know that there is no crash site, lets move along folks....

Marc Abrams
 
Old 11-09-2011, 03:49 PM   #13
mathewjgano
 
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Re: How Much Dan Gets Paid

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
...2) Both men are men of integrity and dedicated to what they do.
3) Both men have no problems stating their positions and asking their questions.
Nicely put! I've seen first-hand examples of generosity from each of them. I have a lot of respect for both men.
...For what it's worth.
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 11-09-2011, 03:55 PM   #14
kewms
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Re: How Much Dan Gets Paid

Quote:
Ernesto Lemke wrote: View Post
I don't recall similar questions being asked, now or before, that concerned your average Aikido Sensei.
Indeed.... It seems to me that compensation is a private matter between the students and the instructor. If the students believe they are getting good value for their money, they should invite the instructor to come again. If they don't, they shouldn't, or should renegotiate the terms. If an instructor seems to be in great demand, that suggests that most people believe they are getting good value.

But public arguments about exact dollar amounts are just plain insulting.

Katherine
 
Old 11-09-2011, 04:02 PM   #15
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Dan pays all of his expenses himself out what he gets in fees. This time we had, IIRC, 14 paying attendees. That's about $2,450. Airfare between Boston and Honolulu runs $700 to $800, depending on what you get - that leaves about $1,700. Hotel in Waikiki for a week is going to run about $1000 - that leaves about $700. Rental car for a week runs at least $300-$400. That leaves maybe $300. Then he's got to eat - we pick up what meals we can, but he resists letting us buy for him and sneaks money into the pot - also we're not with him for breakfast and lunch during the week. After food for the week, if he eats light, you're looking at maybe $100-$150. He taught two 10 hour workshop days and then four free evening sessions of at least 4 hours each.

Do the math.

And that doesn't even cover venue costs, which we cover out of our own pockets.

Best,

Chris
hi Chris,
Thank you for your reply.It certainly seems that costs in the U.S.A are not cheap.Of course all places are being hit by increased fuel costs. All I can do is raise my hat to Dan for being so generous with both his time and his cash contributions.Perhaps extra bodies on the course would help matters?Cheers, Joe
Ps Visited Hawaii[Hilo, LaHaina , Honolulu but didnt have time to grab some practice.Sure is a nice place.Kept looking out for Steve McGarrett.and Dano-no luck.Joe.
 
Old 11-09-2011, 04:05 PM   #16
Gerardo Torres
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Re: How Much Dan Gets Paid

I agree with others that personal finances and compensation is a private matter and in poor taste to bring up as a topic to a public forum. I don't think anybody has any "right" to be asking those questions, but if you do, please go ahead and hold some of the big-name aikido sensei out there to the exact same standard of questioning -- not doing so strikes me as hypocritical.
 
Old 11-09-2011, 04:09 PM   #17
Chris Li
 
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
hi Chris,
Thank you for your reply.It certainly seems that costs in the U.S.A are not cheap.Of course all places are being hit by increased fuel costs. All I can do is raise my hat to Dan for being so generous with both his time and his cash contributions.Perhaps extra bodies on the course would help matters?Cheers, Joe
Ps Visited Hawaii[Hilo, LaHaina , Honolulu but didnt have time to grab some practice.Sure is a nice place.Kept looking out for Steve McGarrett.and Dano-no luck.Joe.
Extra bodies would help a bit - but we don't want to go over 20 in any case, so it will never be really profitable.

The 5-0 guys wander around sometime, stop by next time you're in town!

Best,

Chris

 
Old 11-09-2011, 04:48 PM   #18
Keith Larman
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
The 5-0 guys wander around sometime, stop by next time you're in town!

Best,

Chris
But sadly not my 5-0 hero -- the late Jack Lord. Not only was he Steve, but he was also Felix Leiter in Dr. No. A man's man... And by accounts of family on the island he was quite well respected locally.

 
Old 11-09-2011, 04:56 PM   #19
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Extra bodies would help a bit - but we don't want to go over 20 in any case, so it will never be really profitable.

The 5-0 guys wander around sometime, stop by next time you're in town!

Best,

Chris
Dear All,
I seem to a stirred up a hornets nest.Let me state my position.As a Scotsman I am always trying like most folks to get by and get value for cash.Be it Aikido or buying a burger its the same.Now as a long term Aikidoka I know that the average aikidoka isnt rolling in moneyGenerally its the same with 90% of most senior Aikidoka.In a career spanning over 40 years my own aikido balance sheet is in the red.I must have spent a small fortune on course fees.I have usually cost myself cash to teach others. I felt on reading the blog concerning the fees of Mr Harden to be one which I felt required assuming that the contributor of the D,H blog was happy ] to give me some idea of costs of courses withMr H.I was surprised that the earlier blog seemed to indicate that Mr H. was not exactly receiving a kings ransom for his work.You will note of course I have subsequently offered my congratulations to him for his work.
I also note the comments in respect of the subject of other Shihan /dignataries in the Aikido celestial firmament.I accept that professionals need cash,however I often wonder why it seems to me that in order to successfully run a course with a BIG NAME one has to generate a sum of cash equal to the national debt of Greece /Italy /the Eurozone.to pay for the Sensei and the additional baggage.Bums on seats is the hard part.Cost are going up, the economy is going down, its hard to get people to attend seminars.
So in a nutshell, in case anybody has any doubts , I was not taking a potshot at anybody or trying to be a smarty pants.I asked an honest question,I got a honest reply.I salute you Mr Harden.If by chance we do meet the first bottle of ale is on me.If I also visit Hawaii again I owe Chris a wee schooner of the local suds.
I bid you all adieu, Cheers Joe.
 
Old 11-09-2011, 05:01 PM   #20
Chris Li
 
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
I also note the comments in respect of the subject of other Shihan /dignataries in the Aikido celestial firmament.I accept that professionals need cash,however I often wonder why it seems to me that in order to successfully run a course with a BIG NAME one has to generate a sum of cash equal to the national debt of Greece /Italy /the Eurozone.to pay for the Sensei and the additional baggage.Bums on seats is the hard part.Cost are going up, the economy is going down, its hard to get people to attend seminars.
So in a nutshell, in case anybody has any doubts , I was not taking a potshot at anybody or trying to be a smarty pants.I asked an honest question,I got a honest reply.I salute you Mr Harden.If by chance we do meet the first bottle of ale is on me.If I also visit Hawaii again I owe Chris a wee schooner of the local suds.
I bid you all adieu, Cheers Joe.
No worries, I wonder about the cost too - especially whether or not you get anything even approaching a reasonable value from the big names.

Best,

Chris

 
Old 11-09-2011, 05:14 PM   #21
Howard Popkin
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Re: How Much Dan Gets Paid

As a guy who teaches seminars, I can tell you that Dan is making very little.

No one takes into account travel time, time away from work, away from family, etc.

Going to Hawaii, yea...AMAZING, but 30hours of flying time easy. If you factor in those hours Dan is losing money.

Putting the money aside, If you have to ask how much Dan's seminar is WORTH, then you have no clue what you are looking at or for.

Most budoka spend thousands, if not tens if thousands of dollars over the course of many years to meet an old asian man who wont teach you, yet we bow and scrape because they are asian.

Dan, who is the best martial artist I have met, BAR NONE, wont let you call him Sensei and pours more information on you than you can handle, process, and or understand and someone has the audacity to question how much money he makes ?????

My simple answer is NOT ENOUGH !!!!

If you don't think you got your money's worth... well you simply have no idea what you were looking at.

I meant no offense, this just struck a chord with me.

Howard Popkin
www.pbjjc.com
 
Old 11-09-2011, 05:46 PM   #22
MM
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Re: How Much Dan Gets Paid

Uh, are we done with the DanFest 2011?

Joe, hats off to you for wading through this thread and keeping a civil attitude.

Can we get back to talking about controversial "aikido" and "non-aikido" topics now?
 
Old 11-09-2011, 05:50 PM   #23
Howard Popkin
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Re: How Much Dan Gets Paid

I was civil, and so was Joe. Just wanted everyone to know how I felt.


Howard Popkin
www.pbjjc.com
 
Old 11-09-2011, 05:56 PM   #24
gregstec
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Re: How Much Dan Gets Paid

Ditto to what Howard said - also, for the record, Howard is no slouch either when it comes to MA talent

Those that have a deep interest in learning what aiki is really about would pay thousands of dollars for the answers - well folks, here is the 'hidden in plain sight' secret about that - it won't cost you thousands of dollars - all it will cost you is spending some time with Dan and Howard - these guys have some very special stuff - your loss if you don't spend some effort getting to know them better.

Greg

ps: to Joe, I know where you were coming from, so no problem here, you are an open and honest guy - but there are others that still have the 'snake oil' opinion of a scam going on - those folks are the ones that are truly losing out here, and with that type of narrow vision, I am sure they are losing out in many other areas as well.
 
Old 11-09-2011, 05:58 PM   #25
gregstec
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Re: How Much Dan Gets Paid

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Uh, are we done with the DanFest 2011?

Joe, hats off to you for wading through this thread and keeping a civil attitude.

Can we get back to talking about controversial "aikido" and "non-aikido" topics now?
Yo, were are planning the DanFest 2012 as we type, going to charge thousands of dollars so people realize how much it really is worth - where have you been?

Greg
 

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