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Old 11-05-2011, 09:13 PM   #76
kewms
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Re: More on High Break-falls

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Sometimes on high velocity forward (like over bike handlebars) extending forward, then tucking and rolling even into multiple rolls to eat up the energy is appropriate, but if "uke" sees that forward rolling is going to roll her into trouble (wall or traffic) an experienced body can bail on one, redirect energy to one side of the body, and transform that roll into a breakfall landing. I've done it.
I've done that in the dojo to avoid collisions. I actually have a small scar from such an incident on the back of one hand: mat burn because it was the only point in contact with the mat when I did an emergency pivot.

The really fun part of head-over-handlebars falls is the possibility that the bike will come with you. Never had the pleasure myself, fortunately, but have heard plenty of stories.

Katherine
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Old 11-05-2011, 09:55 PM   #77
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: More on High Break-falls

IMO if a person makes a blaket response on how most folks just don't understand what he/she is saying it is probably because the one that is sharing lacks sufficient ability to communicate. Instructors need to be able to "teach" or "demonstrate" the technique or concept in a variety of different ways.

There was an instructor that visited my area a few years back. He said that I wouldn't want to miss his seminar as he was going to be teaching stuff noone had done before. Graham, brother, you sound a lot like this visitor.

Lyle Laizure
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Old 11-06-2011, 04:34 AM   #78
graham christian
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Re: More on High Break-falls

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Sorry if I was unclear. My point was simply that I've seen plenty of examples of both forward and backward falls, both in my own experience and that of others, and so I'm not prepared to agree that either is more common without additional evidence. And secondarily that a given situation that leads to contact with the ground might cause either a roll or a fall, depending on the individual.

Millions of "normal" people run, ride bicycles, and do other activities at a pace greater than walking. You can't ignore such activities if you're studying falls.

Of the falls I'm personally familiar with -- admittedly a small sample -- the most common causes are (a) slipping on ice, (b) being elderly and frail, and (c) participating in active recreation of some kind.

Katherine
O.K. Thank you, I get it.

One point though. THE major point if I may say so. On what some are calling 'solid' breakfalls ie: the one I call straight down. Relaxing into the ground, dispersing energy not only laterally but more importantly down and out through the ground, that's the major point in the op. That's the one that prevents injury most often. That's the one people avoid, in my view because they have never been taught it in Aikido.

Only one person in this thread has had reality on that point, reality enough to see it's benefit and say how it saved her from great injury more than once.

Regards,G,
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Old 11-06-2011, 05:28 AM   #79
graham christian
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Re: More on High Break-falls

Quote:
Lyle Laizure wrote: View Post
IMO if a person makes a blaket response on how most folks just don't understand what he/she is saying it is probably because the one that is sharing lacks sufficient ability to communicate. Instructors need to be able to "teach" or "demonstrate" the technique or concept in a variety of different ways.

There was an instructor that visited my area a few years back. He said that I wouldn't want to miss his seminar as he was going to be teaching stuff noone had done before. Graham, brother, you sound a lot like this visitor.
Lyle, I may sound like a lot of 'fools' so what? It's not my fault if there are lots of them. Read the above post, only one person so far had the reality I put foreward. A reality I say should be basic. Yet it's hard to see that because no one's said it.

It's also hard to explain when you know others won't get it because they will only be referring in their minds to things and experiences they are used to.

Beginners mind is talked a lot about here but even that, is it real to those who keep mentioning it?

It means an open mind. It means leave all your assumptions, prejudices, reactions, etc. at the door.

With this mind a person could see it's a blanket, bold statement and find that interesting. Thus their approach would be from interest rather than any other attitude. They may even have interest and disagreement or confusion or concern, that's fine too.

I do not believe that after reading the op, and seeing the response and examples I agree with ie: (the falling off ladder, the falling off roof) that a person can't see the concept of relaxing into the ground that I am referring to.

So the only questions for them is do they practice it? Is it basic? Is it a fundamental principle? Is the op correct? Is it taught generally as that principle in Aikido?

It is in judo. It is in wwf, hence my mention of it. It is in many falling arts. In this art however all I here is how damaging such falls can be and zero on how to make that not a problem.

When you check it out you will find actually that many people and shihans say 'this is how it should be done' and go on to say how others do it wrong, or show why other ways are wrong. So saying something is missing or wrong or even unknown is nothing new, it's open for debate.

Also I hear many TOP aikido people here on this forum complaining how modern aikido has lost something. Now that's blanket is it not? Personally I feel every time they get specific on what they consider is misssing and the reasons for it they get it completely wrong on most points. So that's my blanket response.

If I mention a point that causes a big reaction, a lot of put down, a lot of emotive reaction, then sometimes it may be down to me but I think the vast majority of times it's because I've hit a raw nerve. A point of blindness, a point others have never thoroughly looked at and inspected, a firm belief held that I have challenged. This can be looked upon by others as mischief, ignorance, arrogance or whatever, I don't really care. I mention what I can see and usually what I know, not think I know.

So there you have it. My sunday morning sermon ha,ha.

Regards.G.
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Old 11-06-2011, 10:55 AM   #80
kewms
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Re: More on High Break-falls

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
One point though. THE major point if I may say so. On what some are calling 'solid' breakfalls ie: the one I call straight down. Relaxing into the ground, dispersing energy not only laterally but more importantly down and out through the ground, that's the major point in the op. That's the one that prevents injury most often. That's the one people avoid, in my view because they have never been taught it in Aikido.
*shrug* Both my current and my previous dojo do these and teach these. So I ignored that part of your original post because I thought it was obvious and boring.

In most forums, jumping in to say little more than "me too" is considered rude, so a lack of responses doesn't necessarily indicate that your post was outside of other people's experience.

Katherine
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Old 11-06-2011, 11:10 AM   #81
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Re: More on High Break-falls

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Hi Matthew. The point on foreward and backward ukemis in life.

At that point I was talking rolls. So foreward roll and backward roll. So in life how many times have you had to throw yourself foreward into a roll to avoid something? Compare that to how many times you have fallen, been pushed or tripped and turnrned into a backward roll. I am assuming that the second is more.

Then we progress to there is rolling and there is falling without rolling. the principles of the second are described. the second is therefore actually a very common occurence in life. If you know the principles described then you will hurt yourself less. That's the point. Now carry that over onto the mat and then see that even if form is bad or you trip or whatever then if the meeting with the mat is based on principles then that is a breakfall.

So you may on your first response be right, you may have done just as many rolls foreward in life as backwards. So there I may be wrong.

Anyway, it's all good.

Regards.G.
Hi Graham,
One thing is certain, I'll be paying more attention to it in the near future!
I can't think of too many times that I've rolled forward to avoid something, but I can't think of too many times I've rolled backwards to avoid something either. I've rolled usually as a response to tripping on something (mostly someone's foot in soccer). Trying to avoid things usually causes me to use some kind of suriashi movement (probably more often backward than forward). When I've slipped and fallen it definately tended to be backwards. Last year in fact I had a bad fall in a soccer game where I landed all my weight on the left rear corner of my hip. Bad ukemi! It was bruised fairly deeply and it limited my play for a couple weeks. I definately didn't harmonize with the ground on my own terms! Practice makes perfect (or as my drivers' ed. teacher said: "proper practice prevents poor performance") and my lack of practice has made a definate lack of perfect.
Do you have your students practice ukemi movements apart from waza? One of the things I found useful for myself was to really focus on gradual increases of height, starting without even leaving the ground. Just moving around in different ways and seeing how my body feels flipping/rolling this way or that. Then trying to all but leave the ground, maintaining one solid point of contact with it; then leaving the ground a little, but staying close to it; and then finally trying to launch myself (with different degrees of lateral movement).
Different surfaces too: I used to practice rolls on concrete once I could roll on soft surfaces pretty easily. The "launching" rolls really forced me to learn how to have a strong round shape...to round my corners. Having some sense of hard surfaces is invaluable for good ukemi skills. Slapping the mat hard, for example, can be a great way to break your hand/wrist if you're too used to plush mats and you find yourself on concrete instead.
Take care,
Matt

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Old 11-06-2011, 11:52 AM   #82
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Re: More on High Break-falls

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Relaxing into the ground, dispersing energy not only laterally but more importantly down and out through the ground, that's the major point in the op. That's the one that prevents injury most often. That's the one people avoid, in my view because they have never been taught it in Aikido.
I think of this in terms of my understanding of physics, and this is what I was trying to describe earlier: In a fall "down," when you touch the ground, the energy is going down into the ground and bouncing back up through the body; this cannot be controlled. Relaxation allows the energy to spread out (laterally from the initial point(s)), dissipating the impact along different regions; while tensing causes it to focus places, causing greater damage to those localized areas. So when you relax "into the ground," you're actually allowing the energy to spread outward from the initial point of impact, spreading it through the body so more parts take their share of the impact. My sense of things is that it's the "relaxing" more than the "into the ground." I can see how embracing the ground consciously might actively remove unconscious tension though.
Not everything should relax in all falls, however, or you can end up with serious head injuries.
My sense of things at any rate.
For what it's worth.
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 11-06-2011, 12:11 PM   #83
graham christian
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Re: More on High Break-falls

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Hi Graham,
One thing is certain, I'll be paying more attention to it in the near future!
I can't think of too many times that I've rolled forward to avoid something, but I can't think of too many times I've rolled backwards to avoid something either. I've rolled usually as a response to tripping on something (mostly someone's foot in soccer). Trying to avoid things usually causes me to use some kind of suriashi movement (probably more often backward than forward). When I've slipped and fallen it definately tended to be backwards. Last year in fact I had a bad fall in a soccer game where I landed all my weight on the left rear corner of my hip. Bad ukemi! It was bruised fairly deeply and it limited my play for a couple weeks. I definately didn't harmonize with the ground on my own terms! Practice makes perfect (or as my drivers' ed. teacher said: "proper practice prevents poor performance") and my lack of practice has made a definate lack of perfect.
Do you have your students practice ukemi movements apart from waza? One of the things I found useful for myself was to really focus on gradual increases of height, starting without even leaving the ground. Just moving around in different ways and seeing how my body feels flipping/rolling this way or that. Then trying to all but leave the ground, maintaining one solid point of contact with it; then leaving the ground a little, but staying close to it; and then finally trying to launch myself (with different degrees of lateral movement).
Different surfaces too: I used to practice rolls on concrete once I could roll on soft surfaces pretty easily. The "launching" rolls really forced me to learn how to have a strong round shape...to round my corners. Having some sense of hard surfaces is invaluable for good ukemi skills. Slapping the mat hard, for example, can be a great way to break your hand/wrist if you're too used to plush mats and you find yourself on concrete instead.
Take care,
Matt
I teach ukemi as rolls foreward and backward on their own yes. However I teach mainly to non-resist the mat or ground as I describe from falls which are not rolls. In other words if they fall sidewards, flat forewards face down, flat on their back, down on their knees, no difference, they are all breakfalls.

So the standard foreward and backward ukemis as rolls are secondary for me.

When teaching forward ukemi I introduce them into aikitaiso. First from the knees so low ones. Then from standing projecting yourself. Backward ones from standing first as an exercise down and up continuously.

How much depends solely on how good they are getting at it.

For forward ones I then teach how to come up facing forward or to come up facing the way you came from. That would be my next step on the process. Backward ones would be going all the way over and up.

Next for foreward would be over things or across distances. This I would call advanced and not super necessary.

When I was much younger ha,ha, we were taught many high and many long foreward breakfalls and some sideways ones the likes of which I've never seen elsewhere. Anyway, for the high ones we would start with someone laying down and breaking over them. Then on up to them being on their knees crouching. When the limits of height by that method was reached we would move on to someone holding a jo out like a bar which you had to breakfall over so the height could go up to whatever.

The long ones were done by placing two jo's on the mat a distance apart from each other and you had to clear them.

I agree with your view of eventual forming a 'strong' round shape for I would say that comes when you are now confident that the circular shape protects. For me it also equals turning around your own center.

As far as hard surfaces goes yes I remember that being a challenge. I started on grass then anywhere. I remember having a similar debate with two Aikidoka a few years ago outside a row of garages near a car park. I was telling them their aikido breakfalls were the reason for their damage and it was the second time they had come to argue the point. A bit like on here I said my piece and told them if they don't believe me then they****** well you get the picture. In the end they said prove it.
We were on knobbley concrete so I just suddenly launched into a foreward breakfall. The only funny bit was that loose change came flying out of my pockets all over the floor.

I then told one to push me and I went back flat on my back to show them. I then said how I'm not muscley or young but neither am I hurt. That's when they got the reality.

The slapping the hand as you put it is not as easy as it looks. I call this a springing one rather than the flat out dispersal one where you stay where you are, not getting straight back up.

That one takes more work and more understanding to perfect.

Just to add, in aikitaiso I do tests during the exercises. For instance, when doing backward ukemi ie: down, roll back, roll foreward and up. On the up I wil meet them by pushing down on their shoulders as they are coming up. They are to ignore the pressure and carry on up 'through' my push down. Things like this to develope center.

O.k. enough from me.

Regards.G.
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Old 11-06-2011, 12:17 PM   #84
graham christian
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Re: More on High Break-falls

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I think of this in terms of my understanding of physics, and this is what I was trying to describe earlier: In a fall "down," when you touch the ground, the energy is going down into the ground and bouncing back up through the body; this cannot be controlled. Relaxation allows the energy to spread out (laterally from the initial point(s)), dissipating the impact along different regions; while tensing causes it to focus places, causing greater damage to those localized areas. So when you relax "into the ground," you're actually allowing the energy to spread outward from the initial point of impact, spreading it through the body so more parts take their share of the impact. My sense of things is that it's the "relaxing" more than the "into the ground." I can see how embracing the ground consciously might actively remove unconscious tension though.
Not everything should relax in all falls, however, or you can end up with serious head injuries.
My sense of things at any rate.
For what it's worth.
Take care,
Matt
Yes. Thats it basically. I do actually say how the head has to be tucked foreward as it's not conducive to such impact. But yes overall. From this you can see that if someone grabs you by the lapels and slams you up against a wall that it's the same'break-fall' albeit on a vertical plane.

Regards.G.
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Old 11-06-2011, 02:46 PM   #85
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: More on High Break-falls

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Lyle, I may sound like a lot of 'fools' so what? It's not my fault if there are lots of them. Read the above post, only one person so far had the reality I put foreward. A reality I say should be basic. Yet it's hard to see that because no one's said it.

It's also hard to explain when you know others won't get it because they will only be referring in their minds to things and experiences they are used to.

Beginners mind is talked a lot about here but even that, is it real to those who keep mentioning it?

It means an open mind. It means leave all your assumptions, prejudices, reactions, etc. at the door.

With this mind a person could see it's a blanket, bold statement and find that interesting. Thus their approach would be from interest rather than any other attitude. They may even have interest and disagreement or confusion or concern, that's fine too.

I do not believe that after reading the op, and seeing the response and examples I agree with ie: (the falling off ladder, the falling off roof) that a person can't see the concept of relaxing into the ground that I am referring to.

So the only questions for them is do they practice it? Is it basic? Is it a fundamental principle? Is the op correct? Is it taught generally as that principle in Aikido?

It is in judo. It is in wwf, hence my mention of it. It is in many falling arts. In this art however all I here is how damaging such falls can be and zero on how to make that not a problem.

When you check it out you will find actually that many people and shihans say 'this is how it should be done' and go on to say how others do it wrong, or show why other ways are wrong. So saying something is missing or wrong or even unknown is nothing new, it's open for debate.

Also I hear many TOP aikido people here on this forum complaining how modern aikido has lost something. Now that's blanket is it not? Personally I feel every time they get specific on what they consider is misssing and the reasons for it they get it completely wrong on most points. So that's my blanket response.

If I mention a point that causes a big reaction, a lot of put down, a lot of emotive reaction, then sometimes it may be down to me but I think the vast majority of times it's because I've hit a raw nerve. A point of blindness, a point others have never thoroughly looked at and inspected, a firm belief held that I have challenged. This can be looked upon by others as mischief, ignorance, arrogance or whatever, I don't really care. I mention what I can see and usually what I know, not think I know.

So there you have it. My sunday morning sermon ha,ha.

Regards.G.
I'll be honest. I didn't read the majority of your post. You repeat your self. It reminds me of when the adults talk on Charlie Brown, wa wa wa wa, wa wa wa. It's like you are talking to hear yourself. I as well as a few others here have asked for a video and there is always a reason why you can't produce one of yourself doing this. I reckon it doesn't matter. Good luck to you in your training.

Lyle Laizure
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Old 11-06-2011, 04:13 PM   #86
graham christian
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Re: More on High Break-falls

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Lyle Laizure wrote: View Post
I'll be honest. I didn't read the majority of your post. You repeat your self. It reminds me of when the adults talk on Charlie Brown, wa wa wa wa, wa wa wa. It's like you are talking to hear yourself. I as well as a few others here have asked for a video and there is always a reason why you can't produce one of yourself doing this. I reckon it doesn't matter. Good luck to you in your training.
Ha, ha. You do give me a laugh I'll give you that.

For someone who don't read a post and then say what's not in it don't you think that's a little odd?

Plus what you say isn't in it is. That's even more bizarre. So let me do what you don't like and repeat myself.

What you say isn't there is in fact on post 43. Thereafter from 57 onwards others were posting videos and discussing.

Regards. Charlie.
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Old 11-06-2011, 05:47 PM   #87
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Re: More on High Break-falls

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
O.K. You are persistent.

http://youtu.be/ttipyZQTguE

In this video I'll give more clarity for you. At 1-05 there is a more pertinent example, a no choice but to example.

At 3.55 similar.
At 4.30 there is an example of going over circularly but actually the landing is more as per straight down, ie: sinking into the mat with no roll.
At 5.10 similar to the last as from kotegaeshe but this time a complete roll,
Finally at 5.24 there's a mix. As the throw twisted and projected then the body landed going kind of sideways roll on impact but then rooted and put the arms out to in mid air to disperse the energy.

The examples you point to above I would say this. If the person is going down but still managing to roll, rock backwards then I class that as backward ukemi, a roll. If they go flat out then it's the other one.

Regards.G.
Nice ukemi at 4:30, but not spectacularly good. Not like the Isoyama video. I would call the ukemi at 5:25 somewhere between very bad and terrible. Very high potential for injury there. The same goes for the ukemi in the videos that were previously linked to. The training may have been slow and gentle, but the ukes were consistently catching themselves on their arms which has a very high potential for injury.

Overall, I tend to agree with what you are saying, Graham, if not the confrontational tone you are taking, or the execution that tends to be demonstrated in the videos (with a few exceptions).
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Old 11-06-2011, 05:50 PM   #88
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Re: More on High Break-falls

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
In the Shodokan method there are a couple techniques I tasted which plant aite straight back and down, similar to Demetrio's Yoshinkan example of shihonage. It definately gets you to tuck your chin!
Ushiro ate examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obxoc...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-7NOGHe1E8&NR=1 (@ ~ :39)
I don't find this ukemi, or the ukemi demonstrated in the Yoshinkan videos to be anything out of the ordinary.

I have been hesitant to post personal videos here, as I don't want to invite ridicule. However, I feel it might be instructive for people to see where I am coming from, so here is a video of some of the guys from my dojo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl3WSLV5P4w

*disclaimer. I do not claim to be this good. In fact I make no claims about being good at all. If you look at my other videos and find some of me, then please refrain from negative comments. I am still learning and doing my best.
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Old 11-06-2011, 06:36 PM   #89
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Re: More on High Break-falls

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
When I was much younger ha,ha, we were taught many high and many long foreward breakfalls and some sideways ones the likes of which I've never seen elsewhere. Anyway, for the high ones we would start with someone laying down and breaking over them. Then on up to them being on their knees crouching. When the limits of height by that method was reached we would move on to someone holding a jo out like a bar which you had to breakfall over so the height could go up to whatever.
My old instructor used to hold hula hoops up on the air about chest high that we had to go through. She would even take two hula hoops and move them so one was going up while the other was going down (to work on timing). Her theory was that we should be able to dive through an open window if necessary and using the hoops allowed us to see if our rolls were compact or if our legs were just flying behind us, in which case, the student would bring the hula hoop along with them.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
The long ones were done by placing two jo's on the mat a distance apart from each other and you had to clear them.
Our dojo just had students crouch down one next to the other in the child pose position. You would then attempt to dive roll over as many of them as possible. If people were a bit scared of crushing someone, we would put one of the big guys there to take it or we would put a jo or something too. She would even have us practice doing rolls and picking up a weapon (like a knife). We did some cool stuff in the class.....

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
The slapping the hand as you put it is not as easy as it looks. I call this a springing one rather than the flat out dispersal one where you stay where you are, not getting straight back up. That one takes more work and more understanding to perfect
We didn't do the "lay out slap" in either of my dojo's either. We were taught to slap the mat and bring it back up to guard as fast as possible. My first teacher told me to think of it as bringing it back twice as fast as it slapped the mat. As you say, the timing can be a bit hard. I have occasionally found myself slapping too early with partners who actually control my fall (say from koshinage) instead of just letting me drop on my own. Someone with bad timing could easily catch themselves with their hand, catch themselves by landing on their elbow or just plain slap late and their body has already landed. I guess that is where exhaling is a splendid idea. I have been unable to slap at times because my arms are tied up (jujinage and such) and my only saving grace was relaxing and exhaling upon landing so the wind wasn't knocked out of me. A bit of a rough landing, but it has never been anything to write home about.

It seems that you and I have a lot in common when it comes to ukemi.... which I find interesting. Do you happen to have any judo/jujitsu/aikijitsu background? My first dojo was aikijitsu.

Last edited by ninjaqutie : 11-06-2011 at 06:43 PM.

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Old 11-06-2011, 07:42 PM   #90
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Re: More on High Break-falls

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I prefer to frame teaching in terms of "this is how I do it," rather than "you don't understand; this is proper understanding." A matter of personal taste, I guess; maybe I would feel different if I had more experience/understanding.
Theoretically, I'm totally with you. Practically, I discover that the few real teachers I've chosen in life tend to speak very much in the "This is right; everybody else is wrong" mode. I don't necessarily buy in to everything they say, but if they don't believe what they're teaching, why am I there?

In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, not so much.
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Old 11-06-2011, 10:22 PM   #91
kewms
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Re: More on High Break-falls

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Theoretically, I'm totally with you. Practically, I discover that the few real teachers I've chosen in life tend to speak very much in the "This is right; everybody else is wrong" mode. I don't necessarily buy in to everything they say, but if they don't believe what they're teaching, why am I there?

In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, not so much.
In practice, you're actually in the guy's class and can judge for yourself.

On the internet, you can't. What if the guy on the internet says the guy who runs your dojo is an idiot?

(Knowing where you train, I think I know your answer. Just a rhetorical question.)

Katherine
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Old 11-06-2011, 10:46 PM   #92
mathewjgano
 
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Re: More on High Break-falls

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Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
I don't find this ukemi, or the ukemi demonstrated in the Yoshinkan videos to be anything out of the ordinary.

I have been hesitant to post personal videos here, as I don't want to invite ridicule. However, I feel it might be instructive for people to see where I am coming from, so here is a video of some of the guys from my dojo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl3WSLV5P4w

*disclaimer. I do not claim to be this good. In fact I make no claims about being good at all. If you look at my other videos and find some of me, then please refrain from negative comments. I am still learning and doing my best.
Hi Robin,
I don't really think they're out of the ordinary; just examples of one technique which I noticed I was particularly attentive of the back of my head while uke...in fact once I did bounce my head lightly off the mat; never feels good.
I hear you on posting video of yourself. I'm nowhere near so brave yet. Until then I'll "have" to post what others were braver than me to make.
I enjoyed the video you provided! Thank you.

Quote:
Hugh wrote:
Theoretically, I'm totally with you.
Hi Hugh,
I hear you. I would definately rather have people tell me what they think about something, however, for the sake of public discussions, particularly among strangers, I think it helps a little to use more neutral language.
Like I said though, if my experience were greater I might have a different view. This is based on the idea that I know next to nothing about much of anything...which I do.
Take care,
Matt

Last edited by mathewjgano : 11-06-2011 at 10:49 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 11-06-2011, 11:07 PM   #93
robin_jet_alt
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Re: More on High Break-falls

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Hi Robin,
I don't really think they're out of the ordinary; just examples of one technique which I noticed I was particularly attentive of the back of my head while uke...in fact once I did bounce my head lightly off the mat; never feels good.
I hear you on posting video of yourself. I'm nowhere near so brave yet. Until then I'll "have" to post what others were braver than me to make.
I enjoyed the video you provided! Thank you.
Thanks. I agree with you about shiho-nage being a scary technique. My sensei agrees too and spends ages teaching all his students to receive it well because he is very concerned about their welfare. I've even heard stories about people dying after receiving too many hard shiho-nages.
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Old 11-07-2011, 08:06 AM   #94
graham christian
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Re: More on High Break-falls

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Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
Nice ukemi at 4:30, but not spectacularly good. Not like the Isoyama video. I would call the ukemi at 5:25 somewhere between very bad and terrible. Very high potential for injury there. The same goes for the ukemi in the videos that were previously linked to. The training may have been slow and gentle, but the ukes were consistently catching themselves on their arms which has a very high potential for injury.

Overall, I tend to agree with what you are saying, Graham, if not the confrontational tone you are taking, or the execution that tends to be demonstrated in the videos (with a few exceptions).
Hi Robin. I see your view there.

However, I think here lies the difference between demo videos and these. In a demo vid it's all prescribed and certain uke's are used. Thus at first I wouldn't use parts of mine in this thread and because of that received acuusations.

Now when I do you seem to be viewing them as such, a mistake my friend.

To understand my videos in particular, based on past opinions from here, I suggest don't even try for you will be way off mark. This isn't a boast it's because my Aikido is way different from anything most have experienced so comparing it to what you're used to will lead to many false assumptions.

The one for example you call very bad I have in another post explained what happened there. Yes the form was bad, twisted, but unless you know why what can you say?

The type of 'throws' techniques we do by form you may recognise but by execution I doubt.

The point of the op was teaching how to harmonize with the mat. By your comment on landing on elbows it shows me you are missing a point. The point I made was that you can land any way you please, on your knees, on your arms, on your back, whatever if those principles are in. The difference is to know when you can land one way and when you can't. You say great potential for injury. I say no injuries. Therefore there is something we are doing you are not aware of. I can imagine now walking into some dojo and telling them to just fall on their arms or elbows or knees or backs and then watching everyone get injured, it would happen the way they train and go down. So two different things there.

That demo video you show is just that, demo. No comparison. For you it may equal many things for me it equals first, the past. Second, a competent display of certain skills. That's about it for me. The uke was bouncing up to attack again and again. I used to be used as such in demos but hardly relevent to the points at hand for they are repetitive breakfall attack scenarios. The op is basics before you get anywhere near there.

Regards.G.
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Old 11-07-2011, 08:19 AM   #95
graham christian
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Re: More on High Break-falls

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Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
My old instructor used to hold hula hoops up on the air about chest high that we had to go through. She would even take two hula hoops and move them so one was going up while the other was going down (to work on timing). Her theory was that we should be able to dive through an open window if necessary and using the hoops allowed us to see if our rolls were compact or if our legs were just flying behind us, in which case, the student would bring the hula hoop along with them.

Our dojo just had students crouch down one next to the other in the child pose position. You would then attempt to dive roll over as many of them as possible. If people were a bit scared of crushing someone, we would put one of the big guys there to take it or we would put a jo or something too. She would even have us practice doing rolls and picking up a weapon (like a knife). We did some cool stuff in the class.....

We didn't do the "lay out slap" in either of my dojo's either. We were taught to slap the mat and bring it back up to guard as fast as possible. My first teacher told me to think of it as bringing it back twice as fast as it slapped the mat. As you say, the timing can be a bit hard. I have occasionally found myself slapping too early with partners who actually control my fall (say from koshinage) instead of just letting me drop on my own. Someone with bad timing could easily catch themselves with their hand, catch themselves by landing on their elbow or just plain slap late and their body has already landed. I guess that is where exhaling is a splendid idea. I have been unable to slap at times because my arms are tied up (jujinage and such) and my only saving grace was relaxing and exhaling upon landing so the wind wasn't knocked out of me. A bit of a rough landing, but it has never been anything to write home about.

It seems that you and I have a lot in common when it comes to ukemi.... which I find interesting. Do you happen to have any judo/jujitsu/aikijitsu background? My first dojo was aikijitsu.
Hi Ashley.
No, no judo, aikijutsu or jujitsu background. Just an old school zen type training in Aikido. Have trained with judoka after class to help them with their judo but thats all there. Used to use the terms aikijutsu during class, a method picked up from old teacher, to show how not to do things in aikido but that's all on that aspect.

I was a bit like an uchideshi to an very spiritual but disciplinarian teacher. That's about it really.

Regards.G.
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Old 11-07-2011, 03:25 PM   #96
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: More on High Break-falls

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
you know the mud eel in vietnam? slipper as hell and very difficult to pin down (and taste like chicken )
Seems like a valid statement.

Lyle Laizure
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Old 11-07-2011, 04:12 PM   #97
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Re: More on High Break-falls

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Hi Robin. I see your view there.

You say great potential for injury. I say no injuries. Therefore there is something we are doing you are not aware of.

That demo video you show is just that, demo.
Hi Graham,

Fair enough. I am not aware of whatever it is.

The video was posted as an example of how ukemi is done where I learned my aikido. Yes, it is a demo and they are trying to show off a little bit, but at the same time, that is the sort of ukemi we practice (with the exception of the shiho-nages). I think it is a valid example of such. I don't have any videos of regular training, so it will have to do.
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Old 11-07-2011, 08:11 PM   #98
graham christian
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Re: More on High Break-falls

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Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
Hi Graham,

Fair enough. I am not aware of whatever it is.

The video was posted as an example of how ukemi is done where I learned my aikido. Yes, it is a demo and they are trying to show off a little bit, but at the same time, that is the sort of ukemi we practice (with the exception of the shiho-nages). I think it is a valid example of such. I don't have any videos of regular training, so it will have to do.
Hi Robin. Another misunderstanding on my part or yours. When I said about using video as example I meant you using mine to point out things when mine isn't a demo video.
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Old 11-07-2011, 08:13 PM   #99
graham christian
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Re: More on High Break-falls

Hi again Robin. Now your video. I agree what it is and why it is you used it. No problem there.

Regards.G.
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Old 11-07-2011, 08:17 PM   #100
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Re: More on High Break-falls

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Hi Robin. Another misunderstanding on my part or yours. When I said about using video as example I meant you using mine to point out things when mine isn't a demo video.
I guess I am misunderstanding again. The ukemi that Hamatsu-san and Yamasaki-san are demonstrating in that video is the same ukemi that they do at the dojo. Are you saying that you would change the basics of your ukemi for a demonstration? I don't see why this would be necessary.
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