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Old 11-04-2011, 11:59 PM   #51
kewms
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Re: More on High Break-falls

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
On point b) it sounds reasonable as you put it but not so to me. I can see things missing and therefore can say. Again it's so easy to disprove by someone saying we do that here.
Actually, not so easy. The number of people who say "we do that here" (regardless of what "that" is) doesn't seem to have much relationship to the number of people *actually* doing it when I go out and train at different places. Everyone's aikido is fantastic on the internet...

Which is why video is useful. Although in many cases one does need to feel what's going on, video can at least make sure people are talking about the same visible manifestations. A "splat" straight down breakfall looks very different from a layout-into-a-breakfall style roll.

It's also why people tend to be skeptical when someone comes along claiming that large numbers of aikidoka are mistaken on this or that point. While there are a few people who truly have unique insights into the art, most of us are not such special snowflakes.

Katherine
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Old 11-05-2011, 12:00 AM   #52
Mario Tobias
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Re: More on High Break-falls

wow, less than a day for the original post and 50 responses already.

one of the hardest ukemis I've had to manage was from an atypical shihonage technique. The guy had an iron grip and was throwing straight down deep in his center. You can't do a back roll and you can't do a flip. All you can do is to do a back splat, it hurts. it's not even considered "high".
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Old 11-05-2011, 12:06 AM   #53
kewms
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Re: More on High Break-falls

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I remember hearing about a study of cats with broken legs from falling various heights in which there seemed to be less chance of injury on slightly higher elevations than some lesser heights. The reason given for why was that initially cats tended to tense up in anticipation, but past a certain height they had enough time to begin to relax.
It also takes a certain amount of time to rotate around to be feet first. I see that in my own cats. One of them is a great leaper: he'll jump straight up in pursuit of a toy, then flip himself around in mid-air so that he comes down on it feet first. But with a lower jump, or if he ends up too close to a wall or other object that interrupts his flip, he can easily find himself crashing straight down, landing on his side or something instead.

Want to study relaxed ukemi? Watch cats playing with each other.

Not a great model for humans, though. They cheat, what with extra vertebrae and floating shoulders and such. :-(

Katherine
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Old 11-05-2011, 01:36 AM   #54
Janet Rosen
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Re: More on High Break-falls

Katherine, AFAIK research bears out your and also my direct observation of cats needing time/space (ma'aow ?) to rotate.
I watch mine take slow and totally relaxed rolls and falls to learn from them...but it's that soft slow float straight up the wall that I know I'll never manage :-)

Janet Rosen
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Old 11-05-2011, 08:35 AM   #55
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Re: More on High Break-falls

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Mario Tobias wrote: View Post
wow, less than a day for the original post and 50 responses already.

one of the hardest ukemis I've had to manage was from an atypical shihonage technique. The guy had an iron grip and was throwing straight down deep in his center. You can't do a back roll and you can't do a flip. All you can do is to do a back splat, it hurts. it's not even considered "high".
That is just wrong. Uke can get really hurt from that kind of practice.

Last edited by Mary Eastland : 11-05-2011 at 08:36 AM. Reason: spacing and spelling

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Old 11-05-2011, 08:41 AM   #56
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Re: More on High Break-falls

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
you know the mud eel in vietnam? slipper as hell and very difficult to pin down (and taste like chicken )
hahaha, you meant those slippery mud skippers? I saw them for the first time a few years back. They did taste like chicken
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Old 11-05-2011, 08:50 AM   #57
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: More on High Break-falls

Are you talking about the kind of breakfalls uke does in this clip?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=479YHWvilFk

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Old 11-05-2011, 09:05 AM   #58
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Re: More on High Break-falls

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
O.K. You are persistent.

http://youtu.be/ttipyZQTguE

In this video I'll give more clarity for you. At 1-05 there is a more pertinent example, a no choice but to example.

At 3.55 similar.
At 4.30 there is an example of going over circularly but actually the landing is more as per straight down, ie: sinking into the mat with no roll.
At 5.10 similar to the last as from kotegaeshe but this time a complete roll,
Finally at 5.24 there's a mix. As the throw twisted and projected then the body landed going kind of sideways roll on impact but then rooted and put the arms out to in mid air to disperse the energy.

The examples you point to above I would say this. If the person is going down but still managing to roll, rock backwards then I class that as backward ukemi, a roll. If they go flat out then it's the other one.

Regards.G.
That bit at 5:24....seems to me that catching yourself on your elbows like that is just a very bad idea.
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Old 11-05-2011, 09:48 AM   #59
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Re: More on High Break-falls

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Are you talking about the kind of breakfalls uke does in this clip?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=479YHWvilFk
I would definitely consider this a high ( :-) ) quality ukemi. It is the fact that the uke can absorb so much energy and then immediately attack again, indicates that the uke is appropriately relaxed. Also worth noting that the uke has no choice, he has to go down and make the best of it. This is different from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttipyZQTguE#t=5m14s for example, where the uke is in effect encouraged to escape.

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Old 11-05-2011, 10:03 AM   #60
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: More on High Break-falls

Yes, two different kind of ukemi, both situational and both worth learning, imo.

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Old 11-05-2011, 10:23 AM   #61
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Re: More on High Break-falls

Quote:
Mario Tobias wrote: View Post
one of the hardest ukemis I've had to manage was from an atypical shihonage technique. The guy had an iron grip and was throwing straight down deep in his center. You can't do a back roll and you can't do a flip. All you can do is to do a back splat, it hurts. it's not even considered "high".
Something looking like this ones?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAVP7F89cpU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oex5jstvPLc

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Old 11-05-2011, 12:56 PM   #62
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Re: More on High Break-falls

Hi Graham,
Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
On your first point about promoting greater dialogue. It's still my view now. I don't think saying what I see is insensitive. If others disagree they would actually dialogue about it and tell me they use those points all the time. No one did.
I think everyone should be able to give their opinion on anything, but I believe it often tends to get in the way. I think we can discuss ukemi without addressing who knows what; it struck me as a bit ironic, but it's not that important I guess and so happily digress.

Quote:
In life regarding teaching Aikido I come across quite a few things that Aikidoka assume and have been taught until they meet me. I don't say to them 'you do know' I observe and then point out what they don't know and don't understand.
I prefer to frame teaching in terms of "this is how I do it," rather than "you don't understand; this is proper understanding." A matter of personal taste, I guess; maybe I would feel different if I had more experience/understanding.

Quote:
On the foreward and backward ukemi in life are you sure you are understanding what I said? If you did then I don't think that would be your response.
I'm rarely sure I fully understand what people are saying. I've missed too many obvious points in the past to assume that. Would you be willing to elaborate? The following led me to think of ukemi in my everyday life; the examples are of one moving forward, and one moving backward, to my mind. So I guess I didn't "[get the picture of how forward ukemi isn't often needed in life]" from it. In my life, whether it's a drop or not, forward and backward seem fairly close in proportion of usage...thinking of my 20+ years of sports and activity in daily life.

Quote:
From OP wrote:
You see, if you were to launch yourself over a low hedge or even a sudden ditch whilst running you would see the use of one. Even if you were to spring away from an oncoming vehicle to save your own life. Get the picture? Thus we see the fore-ward ukemi as something not often needed in life but useful whereas a backward roll or ukemi much more often needed or employed.
Quote:
So there you are. Those last two points I am saying you don't understand what I said. That's not rude, it's not demeaning, it's opening the door to a) the possibility and probability from my view that there is a misunderstanding on your part or b) that the cause is my presentation.
I have no problem being told I misunderstand something...chances are good I do. There is a difference, as I see it (and then I really will digress, I promise ), between suggesting people misunderstand what you're saying and suggesting all the people misunderstand the real point of an ukemi form based on brief internet remarks. I didn't think you were being rude. I probably should have just remained on-topic; sorry for the distraction.
Take care,
Matt

Last edited by mathewjgano : 11-05-2011 at 01:00 PM.

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Old 11-05-2011, 01:05 PM   #63
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Re: More on High Break-falls

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
That is just wrong. Uke can get really hurt from that kind of practice.
Uke could get hurt, but I wouldn't consider that technique "wrong". Shihonage is one of the most dangerous techniques for ukemi because you can smack your head on the mat, however just because there is room for injury doesn't make a variation of a technique wrong. I have taken ukemi in this method and it is more difficult, but manageable if you can get out of your own way, tuck your chin, relax and absorb the landing with a slap (or other preferred non-slapping method too I suppose).

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Old 11-05-2011, 01:34 PM   #64
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Re: More on High Break-falls

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Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
Uke could get hurt, but I wouldn't consider that technique "wrong". Shihonage is one of the most dangerous techniques for ukemi because you can smack your head on the mat, however just because there is room for injury doesn't make a variation of a technique wrong. I have taken ukemi in this method and it is more difficult, but manageable if you can get out of your own way, tuck your chin, relax and absorb the landing with a slap (or other preferred non-slapping method too I suppose).
In the Shodokan method there are a couple techniques I tasted which plant aite straight back and down, similar to Demetrio's Yoshinkan example of shihonage. It definately gets you to tuck your chin!
Ushiro ate examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obxoc...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-7NOGHe1E8&NR=1 (@ ~ :39)

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Old 11-05-2011, 02:06 PM   #65
Janet Rosen
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Re: More on High Break-falls

I've been thrown straight down many times (generally on some wonderfully devastating iriminages that approached "no touch" throw status in which my momentum was so great the lower half of my shot up in the air as my upper body went straight back/down) the type where you land hard wonsering what happened...and never considered this dangerous because my body had enough repetitions to assume proper position.
Having said that...conceivably a person adding unneeded power for the attack I'd offered could have added more downward speed than I could handle in the short distance and end up hitting back of head...speaks to importance of both partner's intent and matching of energy.

Janet Rosen
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Old 11-05-2011, 04:28 PM   #66
graham christian
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Re: More on High Break-falls

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Are you talking about the kind of breakfalls uke does in this clip?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=479YHWvilFk
Has a couple of good examples there. You can't argue that one of them was high. However , how he handled hitting the mat is precisely the point. First he knew how to disperse the energy, secondly he knew how to then bounce back ready to attack again.

This is actually advanced on from the basics I describe. This is precisely why I find the view of someone saying show me a demo on film like it's a five minute job unreasonable. There are a number of basics involved in that one shown and you can't know them from watching that.

If all someone sees is 'ouch' then it shows me lack of understanding for example.

Thus you can tell amount of understanding by what someone does say.

Regards.G.
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Old 11-05-2011, 04:31 PM   #67
graham christian
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Re: More on High Break-falls

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Mario Tobias wrote: View Post
wow, less than a day for the original post and 50 responses already.

one of the hardest ukemis I've had to manage was from an atypical shihonage technique. The guy had an iron grip and was throwing straight down deep in his center. You can't do a back roll and you can't do a flip. All you can do is to do a back splat, it hurts. it's not even considered "high".
Yep. You get the picture. The point is you can learn how to meet the mat so that back doesn't hurt.

Regards.G.
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Old 11-05-2011, 04:49 PM   #68
graham christian
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Re: More on High Break-falls

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Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
That bit at 5:24....seems to me that catching yourself on your elbows like that is just a very bad idea.
Hi Cherie. Good example of how things are usually observed which I am saying is wrong due to lack of understanding. Allow me to explain.

The two concepts were a) rolling or rotating with the ground and b) sinking in and dispersing energy from the impact.

Now that means any time your body meets the mat at any angle. There is a third one but that is based on b) and involves springing.

Anyway, therefore when watching someone thrown the first thing to look for is what was the result on ukes body? how did he handle hitting the mat? How was he after it?

If he was fine then you can see he was doing something that prevented him getting hurt.

So in the example you use the form was twisted. That was caused right at the point of throwing. However, then the form when hitting the mat looked awkward but the question is was the principles I described being used? a) was used followed by b). Thus me o.k.

Using elbows without those principles is not a good idea no. The point is sometimes things don't happen as they should so all the more reason to know what to do when that's the case.

Hence also the need for the difference between demonstration video and one showing practice. Thus I said I don't have a demonstration video.

Hope that clears that up.

Regards.G.
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Old 11-05-2011, 05:08 PM   #69
graham christian
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Re: More on High Break-falls

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Hi Graham,

I think everyone should be able to give their opinion on anything, but I believe it often tends to get in the way. I think we can discuss ukemi without addressing who knows what; it struck me as a bit ironic, but it's not that important I guess and so happily digress.

I prefer to frame teaching in terms of "this is how I do it," rather than "you don't understand; this is proper understanding." A matter of personal taste, I guess; maybe I would feel different if I had more experience/understanding.

I'm rarely sure I fully understand what people are saying. I've missed too many obvious points in the past to assume that. Would you be willing to elaborate? The following led me to think of ukemi in my everyday life; the examples are of one moving forward, and one moving backward, to my mind. So I guess I didn't "[get the picture of how forward ukemi isn't often needed in life]" from it. In my life, whether it's a drop or not, forward and backward seem fairly close in proportion of usage...thinking of my 20+ years of sports and activity in daily life.

I have no problem being told I misunderstand something...chances are good I do. There is a difference, as I see it (and then I really will digress, I promise ), between suggesting people misunderstand what you're saying and suggesting all the people misunderstand the real point of an ukemi form based on brief internet remarks. I didn't think you were being rude. I probably should have just remained on-topic; sorry for the distraction.
Take care,
Matt
Hi Matthew. The point on foreward and backward ukemis in life.

At that point I was talking rolls. So foreward roll and backward roll. So in life how many times have you had to throw yourself foreward into a roll to avoid something? Compare that to how many times you have fallen, been pushed or tripped and turnrned into a backward roll. I am assuming that the second is more.

Then we progress to there is rolling and there is falling without rolling. the principles of the second are described. the second is therefore actually a very common occurence in life. If you know the principles described then you will hurt yourself less. That's the point. Now carry that over onto the mat and then see that even if form is bad or you trip or whatever then if the meeting with the mat is based on principles then that is a breakfall.

So you may on your first response be right, you may have done just as many rolls foreward in life as backwards. So there I may be wrong.

Anyway, it's all good.

Regards.G.
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Old 11-05-2011, 05:17 PM   #70
graham christian
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Re: More on High Break-falls

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
That is just wrong. Uke can get really hurt from that kind of practice.
Mary. I asked why you don't do break-falls in your Aikido but didn't get a reply. Now you say the described technique is bad and uke could get hurt. I'm missing your point completely and not sure even what you mean by no break-falls.

Care to elaborate?

Regards.G.
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Old 11-05-2011, 07:12 PM   #71
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Re: More on High Break-falls

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Yep. Although if you notice nage was throwing on one of his sides throwing with one hand. My nage was throwing to his center using 2 hands. You can imagine how much distance I needed to adjust so I wouldnt be in an akward twisted position. There's also danger that there's a knee clipping your back.

Another devastating technique is hanmi handachi shihonage ura where nage doesnt move except his arms. He starts straightening your arms and you really need to move around him otherwise your going to break something. He then throws straight down towards his center between his knees, not throwing you outside. The head typically slaps the mat if you dont tuck the chin in. I'd prefer doing the high breakfalls than this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqVo62I2gzY

Last edited by Mario Tobias : 11-05-2011 at 07:15 PM.
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Old 11-05-2011, 08:53 PM   #72
kewms
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Re: More on High Break-falls

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
At that point I was talking rolls. So foreward roll and backward roll. So in life how many times have you had to throw yourself foreward into a roll to avoid something? Compare that to how many times you have fallen, been pushed or tripped and turnrned into a backward roll. I am assuming that the second is more.
If Nurse Janet is reading, she might have some insight on the relative frequency of head/tailbone injuries (falling backward) vs. hand/elbow/knee injuries (falling forward). I personally know people who have done both.

A forward fall is going to happen if something suddenly stops your forward motion while your upper body keeps going: wheel of a bicycle collapsing, hitting a pothole on skates, tripping while stepping up.

A backward fall is more likely to happen if your upper body stops while your legs keep moving: slipping on ice, say, or missing a step down.

But both are entirely plausible.

I'm not differentiating between falls and rolls here because an untrained person in the same situation will likely just go splat, probably injuring whatever body part(s) makes contact first. An aikidoka will (we hope) be able to take ukemi appropriate to the situation, which might be a roll, a fall, or simply recovering their balance and getting on with their lives.

Katherine
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Old 11-05-2011, 09:36 PM   #73
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Re: More on High Break-falls

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
If Nurse Janet is reading, she might have some insight on the relative frequency of head/tailbone injuries (falling backward) vs. hand/elbow/knee injuries (falling forward). I personally know people who have done both.

A forward fall is going to happen if something suddenly stops your forward motion while your upper body keeps going: wheel of a bicycle collapsing, hitting a pothole on skates, tripping while stepping up.

A backward fall is more likely to happen if your upper body stops while your legs keep moving: slipping on ice, say, or missing a step down.

But both are entirely plausible.

I'm not differentiating between falls and rolls here because an untrained person in the same situation will likely just go splat, probably injuring whatever body part(s) makes contact first. An aikidoka will (we hope) be able to take ukemi appropriate to the situation, which might be a roll, a fall, or simply recovering their balance and getting on with their lives.

Katherine
Sorry, you lost me there. You quote what I said which was specifically rolls but then give examples of not differentiating. Thus not sure what the point is.

Where you say a backward fall is more likely to happen I don't get that either. I would think legs stop and upper body keeps going would be far more common even in such things as going to sit on something and missing, leaning back on things that move or collapse, pulling something that breaks, etc.

Also when I say in normal life I tend to think not of fast motions as the most common but normal walking, carrying, sitting, turning and bumping into something and falling backwards etc. Thes slower activities are far more common I would say.

Anyway, that's all a minor point in the op. If the basics of the straight down fall are emphasized and learned then the ground wont look so dangerous and injuries will be prevented. This one being by far the most common type of fall in life thus should be seen as a necessity I would say.

Regards.G.
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Old 11-05-2011, 10:06 PM   #74
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Re: More on High Break-falls

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
If Nurse Janet is reading, she might have some insight on the relative frequency of head/tailbone injuries (falling backward) vs. hand/elbow/knee injuries (falling forward). I personally know people who have done both.
Don't know about relative frequency...I do know what women who fall forward are VERY prone to the Colles fracture, a particularly nasty form of wrist fracture (and why I love Ellis Amdur's Ukemi From The Ground Up dvd, which early on shows an easy-for-newbies-to-do-at-home exercise to build better body habit!) while those who fall back/side are prone to hip fractures....
of course, how one loses balance dictates whether one falls forward or back. It's the training that allows the body to choose the correct response.

Sometimes on high velocity forward (like over bike handlebars) extending forward, then tucking and rolling even into multiple rolls to eat up the energy is appropriate, but if "uke" sees that forward rolling is going to roll her into trouble (wall or traffic) an experienced body can bail on one, redirect energy to one side of the body, and transform that roll into a breakfall landing. I've done it.

Going backwards, well I"ve never been a fan of backrolls and since my knee blew out don't do them at all - all my back ukemi is some sort of fall, soft style round fall or solid breakfall depending on the situation.

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Old 11-05-2011, 10:06 PM   #75
kewms
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Re: More on High Break-falls

Sorry if I was unclear. My point was simply that I've seen plenty of examples of both forward and backward falls, both in my own experience and that of others, and so I'm not prepared to agree that either is more common without additional evidence. And secondarily that a given situation that leads to contact with the ground might cause either a roll or a fall, depending on the individual.

Millions of "normal" people run, ride bicycles, and do other activities at a pace greater than walking. You can't ignore such activities if you're studying falls.

Of the falls I'm personally familiar with -- admittedly a small sample -- the most common causes are (a) slipping on ice, (b) being elderly and frail, and (c) participating in active recreation of some kind.

Katherine
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