Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-04-2006, 09:00 PM   #1
Steven
 
Steven's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Yoshinkan Sacramento - Seikeikan Dojo
Location: Orangevale, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 604
United_States
Offline
Multiple Sclerosis

If you have any personal, first hand experience at teaching someone with any level of Multiple Sclerosis, I would be interested in knowing how you approached this. Especially if you teach the "harder" (whatever that really means) systems of Yoseikai, Shodokan and/or Yoshinkan.

Thanks ...

Last edited by Steven : 10-04-2006 at 09:11 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2006, 10:18 PM   #2
Just Jamey
Dojo: Aikido of West Bend
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 45
United_States
Offline
Re: Multiple Sclerosis

Although I don't have any experience teaching Aikido to someone with MS, I have studied MS and treating its presentations with Chinese Medicine.

I believe Aikido can be of benefit as far as helping maintain joint suppleness and as a way for someone with MS to remain active. That said, people with MS need to be careful to not over-heat, or over-exhert themselves because there is data that shows a correlation between a worsening of symptoms when this occurs. If they are in a more advanced stage of the disease and have difficulty walking, or another more severe impairment, then a high paced class might not work as well for them.

They need to be aware of where their personal limits lay. That really holds true for everyone though.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2006, 10:20 PM   #3
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,218
Offline
Re: Multiple Sclerosis

Basic tenkan-ho and irimi -ho is a good start.

In gassho,
mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2006, 12:46 PM   #4
John Brockington
Dojo: Retsushinkan/Birmingham, AL
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 65
United_States
Offline
Re: Multiple Sclerosis

I have not trained anyone w/ MS, but I treat them as a neurologist, and the primary obstacles I see in any physical activity for MS patients is their transient increase in symptoms when body temperature rises and also a substantial level of constant fatigue. A hard fall should not cause an exacerbation of disease, but you do have to take into consideration their neuro status, ie, do they have impaired vision due to optic neuritis, impaired coordination/strength/response time due to prior exacerbations, urinary incontinence, hypersensitivty (dysethesias/allodynia) to even light touch stimuli, or even cognitive slowing. These possible situations could result in a major problem on the mat. Let me know if there is a specific situation you are concerned about.

John
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2006, 12:50 PM   #5
Dennis Hooker
Dojo: Shindai Dojo, Orlando Fl.
Location: Orlando Florida
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 456
Offline
Re: Multiple Sclerosis

I have worked with people with MS and I have Myasthenia Gravis. Contact me off list and I will send you the book I wrote for my grandchildren regarding my life. A good bit of it revolves around the training.
Thank you for taking the time to work with special people.

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
https://www.createspace.com/238049

www.shindai.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2006, 07:48 PM   #6
dawolfie
Dojo: Aikido of Commerce, Commerce GA
Location: Commerce GA
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 13
United_States
Offline
Re: Multiple Sclerosis

My dad found out he had it last year. It is a very hard thing to deal with in the later stages. If your student is younger, Aikido could really help out. In our dojo, we have a young man with Cerebal Palsey. The training has given him a renewed sense of confidence and perpsective on life. I really do think if you have your mind working on something, like the principles of aikido, their body will adjust and respond better.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2006, 09:41 PM   #7
Steven
 
Steven's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Yoshinkan Sacramento - Seikeikan Dojo
Location: Orangevale, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 604
United_States
Offline
Re: Multiple Sclerosis

Quote:
Jody Thompson wrote:
My dad found out he had it last year. It is a very hard thing to deal with in the later stages. If your student is younger, Aikido could really help out. In our dojo, we have a young man with Cerebal Palsey. The training has given him a renewed sense of confidence and perpsective on life. I really do think if you have your mind working on something, like the principles of aikido, their body will adjust and respond better.

Sorry to hear about your dad Jody. Thanks to all that have posted thus far.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2011, 02:22 PM   #8
DarkShodan
Dojo: Shuurin Dojo - Omaha, Nebarska
Location: Omaha
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 157
United_States
Offline
Re: Multiple Sclerosis

I have resurrected this post from a few years ago.

Starting August 1st I am going to start teaching Aikido to MS patients. I already have several people interested in various stages. I myself have learned a lot about MS in the past month or so. I would welcome any suggestions you all might have.

Thank you Urban Sensei for sending me your tips and advice!

This is an exciting opportunity for myself and the new students to figure out what can be done, rather than what can not be done. Too often we've been told what we can't do because of our age and our limitations. Now we figure out what we can do. Work around those obstacles and see for ourselves. There are some University Medical Students coming to class to see what we do and how we do it. No pressure! ;-)

I'll come back and post on my findings. Thank you all!

Victims, aren't we all.
-- Eric Draven
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2011, 02:36 PM   #9
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,933
Offline
Re: Multiple Sclerosis

Lloyd, that is wonderful. Please post as things progress!

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2011, 01:24 PM   #10
DarkShodan
Dojo: Shuurin Dojo - Omaha, Nebarska
Location: Omaha
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 157
United_States
Offline
Re: Multiple Sclerosis

I cut/paste part of a letter I sent to Urban Sensei. Didn't want to retype it, so here it is...

We tried doing the MS Aikido in the summer but it was too hot for most of the students who wanted to try Aikido. We started back up a few weeks ago. For now we are only doing 1 class a week for 30 minutes. It is slow going but everyone seems to be excited. I have about 10 students in my MS class and one of them joined my regular Aikido class with her husband. Her MS is very mild and she is doing well. All the students are very different. There is no one size fits all class for MS Aikido. I started out with our basic self defense class we teach to women's groups and children. It's a lot of pinching and twisting but follows many Aikido concepts. I have been learning lately someone with MS may not have enough strength to push but has the strength to pull.

Even with the upper body and arms pushing and pulling are different even though they are the same muscle groups. The few techniques we have worked on we have to modify to either pushing or pulling motion, since some have strength in one direction but not the other. It's been very interesting. Most of the students are not able to stand well or not for very long.

Most of the things we have done have been from a sitting position. Body movement has been an issue and we are working with different motions with the shoulders and arms, trying to imitate the hip/waist movement. Almost all the students in the class have a tremendous amount of Ki and can really project.

It is really interesting to feel the Ki and intent of some of these people. In that area they are very strong. One of the goals is to come up with some form of testing standard, something we can actually measure progress. Since we cannot do a one test for everyone I am looking at testing on concepts of Ki, movement and balance, along with physical techniques from a standing or seated position.

Since not everyone can do exact techniques I was thinking, as an example, test #1 the student would be able to perform any 3 basic techniques. Test #2 would be performing the same techniques in test #1 at a higher level, and be able to perform an additional 3 techniques. Test #3 would be test #1 with a advanced knowledge of test #2, and a basic understanding of 3 additional techniques. Something like that.

That's where I am now. I think people are excited about the program and I hope it continues. It's been pretty slow but it's been a learning experience.

Victims, aren't we all.
-- Eric Draven
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2011, 03:54 PM   #11
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,933
Offline
Re: Multiple Sclerosis

Lloyd, I wonder if instead of any upper body pushing or pulling, the focus could be on just gentle outreached extension and then moving center? I would think turning center and opening hips would be very good...anything that is more central and involves relaxing/opening since spasms are often a problem for folks w/ MS.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2011, 08:57 AM   #12
DarkShodan
Dojo: Shuurin Dojo - Omaha, Nebarska
Location: Omaha
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 157
United_States
Offline
Re: Multiple Sclerosis

Good day everyone. Thanks Janet. Maybe I said that wrong, pushing and pulling. When I was teaching I was using the word "extend" and some people were not getting it. I started saying push, like you push a door, meaning you don't touch the door you push through (extend) the door. That seemed to work.I see what you're saying about hip movement and center. The students who are able to stand are not comfortable with hip movements. It's not something they are used to, but we are working on that. Some of the students are in a chair and hip movement is not possible. We are trying to figure out ways to move center with what we can move. Not everyone is the same so it's a lot of learning and adjusting. I had one issue with spasms, something I just learned.

Victims, aren't we all.
-- Eric Draven
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2011, 09:28 AM   #13
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,933
Offline
Re: Multiple Sclerosis

Lloyd, good points you make on the issues of folks in chairs.
You may want to connect w/ Tom Osborne who has worked w/ disabled vets some of whom were chairbound. (I'll pm you his info)

My thoughts: it ain't easy but one can move one's center while seated. Having been doing kokyudosa many years via sitting crosslegged and immobile (rather than in seiza and finishing w/ suwariwaza) I can testify it is challenging but a heck of a good way to really learn how to drop center and move center (both enter and rotate) when other movement isn't possible - its what taught me the difference between "hips" and "center"!

Last edited by Janet Rosen : 10-06-2011 at 09:30 AM.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2011, 09:05 AM   #14
DarkShodan
Dojo: Shuurin Dojo - Omaha, Nebarska
Location: Omaha
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 157
United_States
Offline
Re: Multiple Sclerosis

Good day everyone. I was reading some other random posts about attitudes and egos and hypocrisy on Aikiweb. Tell you something, it's not just here in the forums, it's art imitating life. I've had enough of it here and in my own life. So back to what is really important and what Aikido should be about......

The MS Aikido classes I have been teaching are going well. We only have class once a week for about an hour but the students really like the class and what we have been going over. It is slow going but they are patient and are eager to learn, and learn quickly! I still have a difficult time getting them on their feet. We are still working on balance and movement as much as we can. We have learned some simple wrist techniques and have worked with many people in different stages to work around varying capabilities. It really is an exciting program we are starting. One comment I would like to pass along for you teachers out there; the electric wheel chairs... did you know they weight 250lbs, have a lot of torque and can turn on a dime? I think we have all seen them but did not realize the potential. I was grabbing the wrist and shoulders of some of the students in my class. They are not able to stand and turn tenkan, but they can hit the little joystick on the electric wheelchair, and let me tell you they'll take your arm off! We are learning to use the chairs to mimic different movement. I suppose it's like playing a video game and just learning to use the joystick. Cool stuff!

Victims, aren't we all.
-- Eric Draven
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2011, 09:37 AM   #15
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,933
Offline
Re: Multiple Sclerosis

Quote:
Lloyd McWhirt wrote: View Post
One comment I would like to pass along for you teachers out there; the electric wheel chairs... did you know they weight 250lbs, have a lot of torque and can turn on a dime? I think we have all seen them but did not realize the potential.
LOL!!! Lloyd I'm so glad to have the update.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2011, 08:40 PM   #16
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
Location: Peterborough, NH
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 653
United_States
Offline
Re: Multiple Sclerosis

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
it ain't easy but one can move one's center while seated.
I've actually been working on moving the hara for a while while driving. With good sport seats, your hips and shoulders are held in place--great for isolating the hara.

I was at a party the other night with a guy who's doing guided meditation with PTSD survivors, and that conversation got me thinking--do you think breathwork and basic connected-movement practice would help people who have mobility issues? My mother is having a harder time getting around as she gets older, and this MS thread got me thinking about that--you think that kind of practice would be helpful to these folks?
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2011, 09:00 PM   #17
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,933
Offline
Re: Multiple Sclerosis

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
do you think breathwork and basic connected-movement practice would help people who have mobility issues? My mother is having a harder time getting around as she gets older, and this MS thread got me thinking about that--you think that kind of practice would be helpful to these folks?
I think there are three valuable practices for middle aged and older folks who are not interested in martial arts per se:
1. qi gong or tai chi on a regular basis
2. a referral to at PT specfically for plyometrics to increase coordination in whole body movement
3. learning to get comfortable being on the ground, relaxing and opening their hips to sink to the ground, working on low impact ways of getting up and down and if they do well on that, learning to fall - not forward and backwards rolls, falls, but building from many sessions of being comfortable, relaxing hips, sinking, etc Still trying to convince folks in my town to try it - lots of my professional peers endorse the idea but won't get into the dojo to play with me on it!

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2011, 08:56 AM   #18
DarkShodan
Dojo: Shuurin Dojo - Omaha, Nebarska
Location: Omaha
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 157
United_States
Offline
Re: Multiple Sclerosis

In my experience, yes. The group I work with has been doing meditation for a long time so when I started talking about meditation they had already been practicing it for years. This groups is a firm believer in meditation and so am I. A friend of mine works at the VA and works with PTSD patients. Same thing, he believe in meditation and it works for his group as well.

Victims, aren't we all.
-- Eric Draven
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Poll: Is regularly training at multiple aikido dojo beneficial to experienced aikido practitioners? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 15 09-19-2006 04:42 AM
Poll: Is regularly training at multiple aikido dojo beneficial to aikido beginners? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 9 09-09-2006 07:57 PM
multiple opponents / ending fights RapterClaw General 22 05-03-2005 11:23 PM
multiple senseis Kieun General 16 11-21-2003 01:01 AM
Multiple Nage Randori? willy_lee Training 6 01-28-2003 01:53 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:49 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate