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Old 10-21-2011, 04:41 PM   #26
Rev.K. Barrish
 
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Re: torifune and IS

Hello Mr. Truong,

As for the Furitama....in the original Jinja Shinto exercise, during Jumbi Taiso it is generally right over left with the exception of the time of the "Furube-no-kamu-waza" of the formal Chinkon Saho....interestingly enough what I believe Saotome Sensei and Ikeda Sensei where alluding to regarding move your insides is quite esoteric Shinto practice..in ancient times the general thinking was that ones Mitama/ soul could easily rather become dislodged from the body. This thinking is the origin of many aspects of the practice of Chinkon Meditation. The origin of Mitamafuri or Furitama had to do with the shaking of the Kannadakara while repeating the Hi-fu-Mi norito/ a mantra of counting from 1 to 10 in order to recall a wandering Mitama. This is also the thinking behind Tamamusubi or the tying of 10 knots into a piece of string as well as the practice of shaking a box containing the clothing of an ill person 10 times in order to seat the soul more firmly in the body/ hara. The moving of the " insides" refers to consciously moving the center through a series of circles of 10---- vertically, to the left, to the right, on the centerline anti-clockwise, clockwise, horizontally to the left, horizontally to the right and again vertically. This type of "spiritual calisthenic" is the basic of Chinkon's Furube-no-kamu-waza...it is really very great that Saotome Sensei and Ikeda Sensei are transmitting the heart of this important practice.....

FURITAMA:

re: Furitama ( Soul Shaking)

1. Stand with your legs apart about shoulder width .

2. Place your hands together with the right hand over the left. Leave space
between them big enough for an imaginary ping pong ball.

3. Place your hands in that position in front of your stomach and shake
them vigorously up and down.

4. While shaking them concentrate and repeat the words: Harae-do-no-Okami -
an invocation to the kami of the place of harai.

The Object of Furitama

The purpose of shaking the soul is to generate awareness of it within
yourself. Kon, (the soul), in Shinto, is one of the four important elements
along with Mei (life), Rei (spirit) and Ki (which means Spirit in its causal
aspect - Ki is a kind of energy source). Kon is the most important of the
four since human beings can also be described as Waketama (separated
individual souls), which is another way of saying "children of the kami".

As for the practice of Furitama, sometimes called Mitamafuri....lit. to shake the soul.... this is a really very important exercise..through Kaiso/ the Aikido founder it is true that many people in various Aiki traditions practise, but often without understanding. The origins of the movements are:

1) from Furube no Kamu waza of Chinkon Saho = the movements of Shinto active meditation

2) Misogi Shuho Jumbi Taiso = exercises such as Ame-no-torifune and furitama come from the movements used to activate the mind/spirit/body for ritual purification in moving water.

Chinkon is also called mitamashizume or mitamafuri. Mitamashizume means to pacify the spirit and settle it in the center of the body. Mitamafuri means to reinvigorate the withered soul by shaking a ritual object or the human body. It also means beckoning a spirit into the body.

Misogi (purification) and chinkon are the two most important practices of Shinto. We practice misogi to cleanse our body and mind of obscuring KI and to create the opening for the fresh new Ki and possibilities, and then practice chinkon to calm/ integrate the spirit and to connect to the divine world. Every morning as part of Chouhai/ morning prayer we practice chinkon. Here at Tsubaki Grand Shrine of America we also practice Chinkon after each Aiki Keiko and very formally each Saturday morning.

...........during Furitama while standing, an important note is that it is advisable to raise up onto the balls of your feet and extend KI downward through your foot chakras and receive the echo of that extension through the same channel.

...and yes the "move inside" is exactly the real thing...................
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Old 10-22-2011, 06:22 AM   #27
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: torifune and IS

Thank you very much for your comments and answers!!!
I'm learning a lot!

One furhter question:

First I learned torifune with opening-and-closing the fists.
I then learned it with closed fists, thumbs outside.
I finally was taught to do it with closed fists thumbs inside. (Which I find in the explanations of Rev. Barrish.)

But I experience it "difficult" to do torifune this way when "adding" dantian rotation. It feels like the dantian rotation "pushes" the thumbs out of the fists. Or if there is a "contradiction".
I also experience it "difficult" when using dantian rotation to not also rotate my arms/fists around their axes. (Like Ueshiba does in the video.)

Thoughts (or experiences)?

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
...
anyway, right over left or left over right, methink, wasn't the real part. it's the "move inside", that's the real thing.
My aikido teacher is also teacher of a koryu. And when he teaches something of the "esoteric stuff", it is always important whether right or left do ... whatever they do.
In most cases you can immediatly feel the difference. And very often what he teaches is different from what I was used to up to then.
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Old 10-22-2011, 07:37 AM   #28
chillzATL
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Re: torifune and IS

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
Keep in mind I said "maybe", I'm not trying to lay out absolutes. But there are big and little things that could be at odds, or focused differently. In some cases there are easy to spot commonalities, in others it requires considerable leaps of imagination to connect dots if they even there to be connected due to vast gulfs in how material is presented and trained. But some issues I could think of that I might expect all of them to answer differently:

Are internal and external different and separate, or is the distinction of of little worth and everything can be broken down to discernible athletic qualities? The mind is the end-state, or is it only a training tool and a crutch that must be erased lest it become a liability? The arms, just along for the ride, or going around an axis, or on the axis, or all of the above depending on taste? Organize pathways statically, or according to movement goals? Is it a dantien or is it a spine? Do you try to go in all directions at once, or do you merely have the ability to go in any direction at any time for any reason? Is awareness continuous or is it reactive? Do you wind or spiral for the sake of winding, or are they only valuable as a component of bringing the body into line and a structural fault if taken too far? Breathing - supplement, complement, or just a tiny extra? Tension - necessary to understand spectrum of relaxation and force or just heresy? Explosiveness - funny spiral movement, mental projection, or inherent quality of all movement? Movement - starting point or the end point? Stillness - everything or overrated?

Probably a lot more issues they'd take different sides on, at least based on my understanding. I don't think they'd approach torifune or things like it the same way or for the same reasons...
I think most of the differences you talk about are about approach and not about the core skills. I agree that trying to think about these things in that way can be confusing, but if you try to break everything down to how it relates to the core skills it makes things so much easier to digest. In the end, regardless of the approach used, if you're working on improving the same core skills you can take what you're doing in any direction, any approach, with minimal time spent retooling. The hardest part of that retooling is likely on the ego and not so much of a physical deficiency.

Obviously I didn't drill down into the things you listed, but if you want to discuss those things in more depth, start a new thread and lets give it a go.
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Old 10-22-2011, 08:41 AM   #29
phitruong
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Re: torifune and IS

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
But I experience it "difficult" to do torifune this way when "adding" dantian rotation. It feels like the dantian rotation "pushes" the thumbs out of the fists. Or if there is a "contradiction".
I also experience it "difficult" when using dantian rotation to not also rotate my arms/fists around their axes. (Like Ueshiba does in the video.)
.
i used the aiki-age-sage (the begin of aikisage is aikiage) and aiki-sage-age approaches from the roppokai for the hands (not really the hands, as the hands express the internal things in your body - it's one of those power from the legs, control by the middle and express to the arms/hands thingy)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vd79...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIfUg...eature=related

i believed Sigman's folks called this winding/unwinding; Dan's folks, spirals; others, take the slack out of your body and the other bugger's body; and phi's folks (which only included phi and his many other personalities) how to make this crap work like magic so we can go carousing.

it's just me. i added stuffs that i interested me, just for fun. YMMV.

*you know the usual disclaimer so i won't mention it here*

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 10-22-2011, 10:57 PM   #30
Upyu
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Re: torifune and IS

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
<snip> which, in the long run, he's moving with his feet.
Disagree with that, you'd ground through the feet, but the movement would be initiated from the hara/koshi
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Old 10-23-2011, 10:23 AM   #31
Walter Martindale
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Re: torifune and IS

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
Disagree with that, you'd ground through the feet, but the movement would be initiated from the hara/koshi
Ok... thing is it's all connected.

It really all starts in the cerebral cortex with the intent to move, travels down the neurons (is it the pyramidal tracts?) to the biggest muscles first, and travels outwards to the smaller muscles. Any more detail than that and I'm out of my depth. core musculature acts to transmit the work done by the big muscles in the lower body to the limbs. Essentially, it's all connected...

However - the fellow moving the boat in the movie is doing real cormorant boat rowing, with a real boat. I wonder what would happen if we actually learned how to do the movement with a boat, rather than some imaginary (or real) person holding our wrists, and then moving to people. that's if you want realistic training...

W
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Old 10-23-2011, 12:26 PM   #32
Dave de Vos
 
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Re: torifune and IS

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
...However - the fellow moving the boat in the movie is doing real cormorant boat rowing, with a real boat. I wonder what would happen if we actually learned how to do the movement with a boat, rather than some imaginary (or real) person holding our wrists, and then moving to people. that's if you want realistic training...

W
I understand that you as a rowing coach know what realistic rowing training is. But does the aikido rowing exercise have anything to do with exercises for rowing (other than looking like rowing)?
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Old 10-23-2011, 02:36 PM   #33
Andrew S
 
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Re: torifune and IS

Just to throw some confusion in there...
A few weeks back I was watching some light entertainment on TV. One of the "contestants" on the program wanted a mental edge on her competitors, so she went off to do some takigyo (meditation under a waterfall)
I had always assumed this was a Zen practice or Buddhist practice, but she did it under the guidance of a Shinto priest.

Prior to hitting the water, the priest started singing some kind of hymn. As he was singing, he rapidly shifted his weight forwards and backwards, thrusting his hands out on the forward movement, bringing them back to his tanden on the backward movement...
funakogi or torifune!

Was this Ueshiba's source - misogi?

Warning: Do not bend, fold or otherwise abuse... until we get to the dojo..


合気道研心会 Aikido Kenshinkai
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Old 10-23-2011, 04:37 PM   #34
Upyu
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Re: torifune and IS

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
Ok... thing is it's all connected.

It really all starts in the cerebral cortex with the intent to move, travels down the neurons (is it the pyramidal tracts?) to the biggest muscles first, and travels outwards to the smaller muscles. Any more detail than that and I'm out of my depth. core musculature acts to transmit the work done by the big muscles in the lower body to the limbs. Essentially, it's all connected...

However - the fellow moving the boat in the movie is doing real cormorant boat rowing, with a real boat. I wonder what would happen if we actually learned how to do the movement with a boat, rather than some imaginary (or real) person holding our wrists, and then moving to people. that's if you want realistic training...

W
There's a big difference in having the core initiate as opposes to the legs initiating. Otherwise, a squat could be touted as being "IS" because it's a "whole body" exercise. There's a no so subtle difference.
Rowing and squatting can be modded to be done in an IS fashion, but you have to know "how"
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Old 10-23-2011, 05:55 PM   #35
Walter Martindale
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Re: torifune and IS

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
I understand that you as a rowing coach know what realistic rowing training is. But does the aikido rowing exercise have anything to do with exercises for rowing (other than looking like rowing)?
The rowing I coach doesn't bear any physical resemblance to the funakogi exercise. It's a movement pattern from moving an entirely different kind of boat that's used in aikido.

If there's anything from rowing a racing shell that's going to help in Aikido it's the strength, conditioning, balance, core stability and some possible intangibles that I'm not smart enough to discuss. A training session in rowing requires up to 2 hours of doing what is equivalent to a power clean with anywhere between 20 and 80 kg (depending on the phase of the workout and the power of the athlete) between 18 and 40 times a minute while sitting on a round-bottomed boat, working either by oneself or with a bunch of other people. Does it translate directly into anything at all to do with Aikido? Hard to say. If a trained rower learned aikido, or if an aikido person was also training in rowing, I suspect that the base conditioning from the rowing would transfer to being able to do a very long, very hard Aikido workout without really suffering too much (after a few weeks of conditioning up the musculature that's active in ukemi etc.)

However - sport rowing doesn't at all resemble funakogi undo. I keep getting told not to use strength when I'm trying to be gentle and not forceful - yet I've had a couple of shihan say they like the way I work (the late Kawahara and another)...

Oh well - my opinion counts for pretty much stuff all in these fora because I tend to try to answer from sports science, coaching and athletic training perspectives rather than traditional 'aiki' or unmeasureable 'IS' sorts of concepts...

sigh.
W
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Old 10-23-2011, 06:29 PM   #36
Ellis Amdur
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Re: torifune and IS

Walter Martindale asked:
Quote:
Was this Ueshiba's source - misogi?
Yes - HIPS 203-206 (BUT)

That isn't to say (I don't know) if that specific exercise was not present in Daito-ryu at that time (a high ranking guy in the Kodokai told me that they use it now, but there's no particular account that I know of that describes Takeda Sokaku of doing it - in fact, the DR guy speculated it was incorporated from aikido, an example of what the Japanese call gyaku-ryunyu - reverse importation).

Remember, Takeda trained briefly as a Shinto priest (his father made him), and the Misogi no Gyo, which was a compilation of various core Shinto (and Chinese derived) training exercises, was popular throughout Japan. Ueshiba first encountered it at a specialized training put on by the Misogikai at a Shinto shrine. It's my opinion that this enabled him to:
a. Have a training system that helped put some distance from Omotokyo orthodoxy (there's an oxymoron).
b. Had a set of training exercises into which he could put DR, while being able to present them as his own. I don't mean that he was being dishonest, any more than BJJ is not judo. He separated himself from the group, and in one sense, it's a mark of respect that when one makes one's own group, one shouldn't just carbon copy the training regimen of the group one left.

In sum, torifune very definitely comes from Misogi-no-Gyo - and possibly, Ueshiba found in torifune an exercise he had already learned.

And lest the usual squawking starts - I didn't say that Ueshiba learned in the Misogi-no-gyo "internal training" apart from that in DR. I doubt that he did, fwiw. I'm talking about the bottle, not the wine.

Ellis Amdur

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Old 10-24-2011, 03:09 AM   #37
Lee Salzman
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Re: torifune and IS

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
There's a big difference in having the core initiate as opposes to the legs initiating. Otherwise, a squat could be touted as being "IS" because it's a "whole body" exercise. There's a no so subtle difference.
Rowing and squatting can be modded to be done in an IS fashion, but you have to know "how"
And what if every joint in the body initiates simultaneously? Is that not internal because the legs and the trunk both shared the responsibility, rather than doing everything with the trunk?
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Old 10-24-2011, 03:11 AM   #38
Dazzler
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Re: torifune and IS

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
i used the aiki-age-sage (the begin of aikisage is aikiage) and aiki-sage-age approaches from the roppokai for the hands (not really the hands, as the hands express the internal things in your body - it's one of those power from the legs, control by the middle and express to the arms/hands thingy)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vd79...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIfUg...eature=related

i believed Sigman's folks called this winding/unwinding; Dan's folks, spirals; others, take the slack out of your body and the other bugger's body; and phi's folks (which only included phi and his many other personalities) how to make this crap work like magic so we can go carousing.

it's just me. i added stuffs that i interested me, just for fun. YMMV.

*you know the usual disclaimer so i won't mention it here*
Phi - you need to try harder with the jokes otherwise people will notice that you do know what you are talking about. You wouldn't want that now would you?

Where you say 'taking the slack out' Dan might say Open...(and then Close with the retraction). Great stuff...when is your first carousing seminar? I think I'd like that one.
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Old 10-24-2011, 05:19 AM   #39
Walter Martindale
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Re: torifune and IS

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Walter Martindale asked:

(snip)
Ellis Amdur
Um. You sure it was me asking? I don't very often discuss misogi.. is miso-gi a soup made of gi, or is it a gi that's been cleansed in miso?
W

Last edited by Walter Martindale : 10-24-2011 at 05:22 AM.
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Old 10-24-2011, 06:50 AM   #40
gregstec
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Re: torifune and IS

How about another prospective -

Absorb in (yin) down to the feet thru the dantein and project out (yang) from feet up thru the dantien while internally paying attention to the opening and closing of the associated joints along the path with intent.

Greg
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Old 10-24-2011, 08:32 AM   #41
bob_stra
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Re: torifune and IS

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
However - sport rowing doesn't at all resemble funakogi undo.
W
Depends on where the boat is from, I guess





EDIT: My bad; I see this type of boat has been mentioned

Last edited by bob_stra : 10-24-2011 at 08:43 AM.
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Old 10-24-2011, 09:02 AM   #42
phitruong
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Re: torifune and IS

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote: View Post
Phi - you need to try harder with the jokes otherwise people will notice that you do know what you are talking about. You wouldn't want that now would you?

Where you say 'taking the slack out' Dan might say Open...(and then Close with the retraction). Great stuff...when is your first carousing seminar? I think I'd like that one.
Daren, thanks for remind me of what important. it won't do if folks start to believe in what i wrote. that would really messed up my reputation as the aikiweb court jester.

if the other bugger Opens, you have to Close. if he/she Closes, you Open. if he reaches for your sushi, you Slap his hand with the chopstick. if he in yo ho, you got to kick him out of your house.

i thought all the seminars are for carousing. you meant i have been doing aikido seminar? you meant i have been paying good money to dance with a bunch of sweaty guys in skirts? you meant i have been doing rowing the boat with a bunch of unattractive guys? that is just so wrong!

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 10-24-2011, 09:12 AM   #43
phitruong
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Re: torifune and IS

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
Depends on where the boat is from, I guess



EDIT: My bad; I see this type of boat has been mentioned
that kind of boat rowing isn't sporting. this is http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d9...eRoundBoat.jpg

put some tourist on one of those, and you have a good laugh.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 10-24-2011, 09:21 AM   #44
Ellis Amdur
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Re: torifune and IS

Quote:
Um. You sure it was me asking? I don't very often discuss misogi.. is miso-gi a soup made of gi, or is it a gi that's been cleansed in miso?
W
Sorry Walter Martindale. It was Andrew Smallcoombe. They are spelled almost exactly the same.

Ellis AMdur

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Old 10-24-2011, 10:03 AM   #45
Janet Rosen
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Re: torifune and IS

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote: View Post
Where you say 'taking the slack out' Dan might say Open...(and then Close with the retraction). Great stuff...when is your first carousing seminar? I think I'd like that one.
And I might say "we can ALWAYS take the slacks out, we can hem them too"

Janet Rosen
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Old 10-24-2011, 10:44 AM   #46
bob_stra
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Re: torifune and IS

Here's a video of traditional japanese boat-rowing (AFAIK).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX8MFCfGPnM

Perhaps a cross-comparison with torifune could be fruitful? Would someone like to take a crack at that?
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Old 10-24-2011, 11:45 AM   #47
chillzATL
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Re: torifune and IS

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
Here's a video of traditional japanese boat-rowing (AFAIK).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX8MFCfGPnM

Perhaps a cross-comparison with torifune could be fruitful? Would someone like to take a crack at that?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yl0to...eature=related

another

seems like the kind of thing you'd have to develop a fairly integrated way of moving to do all day long.

Last edited by chillzATL : 10-24-2011 at 11:51 AM.
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Old 10-24-2011, 11:56 AM   #48
MM
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Re: torifune and IS

I think that perhaps the very best comparison that can be made is this:

Hundreds of people who have rowed boats in this manner (as the recent videos have shown) and have equaled Morihei Ueshiba's skills and abilities vs Sokaku Takeda teaching Daito ryu aiki specifically to certain students.

Then, perhaps compare the hundreds, or more, of spiritual people who have done torifune and equaled Morihei Ueshiba's skills and abilities vs Sokaku Takeda teaching Daito ryu aiki specifically to certain students.

Reference Morihei Ueshiba stating that aiki "completes" religions. Note that it isn't the other way around.

Reference Morihei Ueshiba stating that he was a man of budo and not a religious man.

So, then when you find 0 people in the former categories and 6-10 people from Takeda's category, perhaps a closer look at aiki as an internal method to remake the body is warranted? Perhaps it really isn't the actual act of torifune that gave Ueshiba his skills and abilities, but rather that Ueshiba's aiki exercises "completed" torifune ... torifune was the vehicle for which Ueshiba used to practice and get better at aiki skills. Just as he did with farming. With chanting. With swinging a jo around.

Course, if someone wanted to spend 40 years rowing a boat to get aiki, that's their choice. Almost like spending 40 years doing torifune ... or 40 years doing techniques ... What was it Einstein said about insanity?
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Old 10-24-2011, 12:17 PM   #49
gregstec
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Re: torifune and IS

Just an observation about the last two rowing vids - in both those vids, the person is pushing with yin and pulling with the yang parts of the body - yin is on the palm side of arms and front of the body with yang being on the back and top outside part of the arms - look at Ueshiba's fune kogi and you will notice that it is reversed - he pushes out with yang and is pulling in with the yin - another way to look at it is to look at what part of the body they are leading with - pushing out with palms out with fingers up is yin out and pushing out with back of hands out with fingers down is yang out.

Greg
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Old 10-24-2011, 02:52 PM   #50
mathewjgano
 
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Re: torifune and IS

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I think that perhaps the very best comparison that can be made is this:

Hundreds of people who have rowed boats in this manner (as the recent videos have shown) and have equaled Morihei Ueshiba's skills and abilities vs Sokaku Takeda teaching Daito ryu aiki specifically to certain students.

Then, perhaps compare the hundreds, or more, of spiritual people who have done torifune and equaled Morihei Ueshiba's skills and abilities vs Sokaku Takeda teaching Daito ryu aiki specifically to certain students.

Reference Morihei Ueshiba stating that aiki "completes" religions. Note that it isn't the other way around.

Reference Morihei Ueshiba stating that he was a man of budo and not a religious man.

So, then when you find 0 people in the former categories and 6-10 people from Takeda's category, perhaps a closer look at aiki as an internal method to remake the body is warranted? Perhaps it really isn't the actual act of torifune that gave Ueshiba his skills and abilities, but rather that Ueshiba's aiki exercises "completed" torifune ... torifune was the vehicle for which Ueshiba used to practice and get better at aiki skills. Just as he did with farming. With chanting. With swinging a jo around.

Course, if someone wanted to spend 40 years rowing a boat to get aiki, that's their choice. Almost like spending 40 years doing torifune ... or 40 years doing techniques ... What was it Einstein said about insanity?
Of course I can't speak for anyone else, but this seems a little obvious. I don't think it's a matter of whether or not rowing a boat gives people IS (I haven't seen that said yet, at any rate), it's a question of how might one begin to approach IS through this rowing exercise. The best way is to practice with people who have IS and apply that learning to the exercise. Given that understanding, what might the exercise lend itself to? How do people approach the exercie?
I rather like Greg's remarks about pushing with the "yang" part of he body instead of the "yin." I think I can see what he's describing.

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