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Old 11-11-2011, 02:27 PM   #126
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
I have had training in textual analysis and some training in linguistics. If you think translations are so wrong that they completely undermine the meaning of the statements that I have referred to, then it is up to you to make the case in the specific. The possibility that something might be mistranslated in a manner that undermines the implied argument is not proof that that it was in fact so mistranslated.
What I think about the subject at hand is that everybody can be wrong.

 
Old 11-11-2011, 02:51 PM   #127
Chris Li
 
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
What in the interview with O'Sensei and Doshu do you think is so wrong that it changes the meaning of what was being said? You can get the original from Pranin Sensei.

Pranin Sensei also mistakenly assumed that O'Sensei not teaching much meant that he wasn't involved in instruction at Hombu. This is false. He supervised Saotome Sensei almost every morning. He probably supervised others as well. Have you read Dobson Sensei's book? He was involved.
Sure I have, I even knew Terry slightly. Anyway, there's no question in my mind that he was not that active in the management of day to day affairs - and that the student experience after the war was markedly different than before. Even Kisshomaru stated, when asked who the post-war uchi-deshi were,"There were no uchi-deshi after the war.".

Best,

Chris

 
Old 11-11-2011, 03:02 PM   #128
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Sure I have, I even knew Terry slightly. Anyway, there's no question in my mind that he was not that active in the management of day to day affairs - and that the student experience after the war was markedly different than before. Even Kisshomaru stated, when asked who the post-war uchi-deshi were,"There were no uchi-deshi after the war.".

Best,

Chris
Who cares if O'Sensei "managed the daily affairs"? Your argument, and that of your clan, have been that post-war Aikido was not O'Sensei's Aikido and/or that there was no difference between O'Sensei's pre-war and post-war Aikido. O'Sensei did not manage daily affairs and he mostly popped in from time to time to teach a bit in the classes of other students. This is all true. But he also supervised the teachers and in this way continued to shape the Aikido at Hombu. This contradicts your claims.

Terry Dobson Sensei's book is testament to the fact that O'Sensei continued to guide students.

I note again that the most brazen claims, like O'Sensei allegedly not being religious, have not been defended.
 
Old 11-11-2011, 03:08 PM   #129
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Despite the effort to hide what Dan is doing from non-paying students and public scrutiny: http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/u...&Number=433547

I have found photos here:
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...4764115&type=3

Here we find Dan commenting on the similarity between what he is teaching and what this instructor is teaching:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...22756738846126

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10351

The photos show grounding and unbalancing exercises. This is not new. This is in Tai Chi and many other arts. Read Sugawara's books on the Japanese and Chinese arts.

This instructor is pushing the idea that Ukemi, the cooperative nature of training, is the problem. I take this as support for the idea that Dan agrees. This is where I think he's way wrong. Exercises are fine. But they need to be incorporated in waza. Aikido is not about fighting back. I can teach the 50 year old 4'8" student to cage fight. I can teach her to evade and blend.

The idea that the blending notion of Aikido can't work, or that people who train in cooperative training, can't use Aikido as this instructor claims, and Dan seems to endorse, is contradicted by all the people who have trained in a cooperative manner and then used their Aikido in dangerous situations. Maybe you all live in safe places. Aikido has been tested time and time again by people whom I know personally.

Last edited by Ken McGrew : 11-11-2011 at 03:11 PM.
 
Old 11-11-2011, 03:15 PM   #130
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Despite the effort to hide what Dan is doing from non-paying students and public scrutiny: http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/u...&Number=433547

I have found photos here:
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...4764115&type=3

Here we find Dan commenting on the similarity between what he is teaching and what this instructor is teaching:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...22756738846126

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10351

The photos show grounding and unbalancing exercises. This is not new. This is in Tai Chi and many other arts. Read Sugawara's books on the Japanese and Chinese arts.

This instructor is pushing the idea that Ukemi, the cooperative nature of training, is the problem. I take this as support for the idea that Dan agrees. This is where I think he's way wrong. Exercises are fine. But they need to be incorporated in waza. Aikido is not about fighting back. I can teach the 50 year old 4'8" student to cage fight. I can teach her to evade and blend.

The idea that the blending notion of Aikido can't work, or that people who train in cooperative training, can't use Aikido as this instructor claims, and Dan seems to endorse, is contradicted by all the people who have trained in a cooperative manner and then used their Aikido in dangerous situations. Maybe you all live in safe places. Aikido has been tested time and time again by people whom I know personally.
You like to stir things up....

At least you finally did what they (Dan's people) asked you to do and did some searching rather than sitting around complaining that they're not spoon feeding you what you want to know. So now you have your answers and can move on, right?
 
Old 11-11-2011, 03:27 PM   #131
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Mr McGrew
You came in making statements about me that are not correct, stating positions I "supposedly" hold, and misquoting me. People who have have trained with me, or at least accurately read what I say are correcting you. You are now calling it a commercial for me.

What would you like, for everyone to just shut up and let you rant?
I am away and occasionally checking in on my phone. If you want to discuss Ueshiba when I get home ...I might consider it, if you lighten up.

FWIW, you are the one offering the insults...cowards, I need to come clean...and such. I have trained with saotomes senior students, this is not a level of discourse I have ever seen.
I refused to revisit sixteen years of issues with you, after reading the quality of your replies, I think it was a wise choice.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-11-2011 at 03:31 PM.
 
Old 11-11-2011, 03:29 PM   #132
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
You like to stir things up....

At least you finally did what they (Dan's people) asked you to do and did some searching rather than sitting around complaining that they're not spoon feeding you what you want to know. So now you have your answers and can move on, right?
Sure, go back to the commercial. Aikido is just Aiki Ju Jitsu and everyone in Aikido sucks because they believed the things the O'Sensei said. Cooperative training is a joke and not what O'Sensei had in mind.
 
Old 11-11-2011, 03:35 PM   #133
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Despite the effort to hide what Dan is doing from non-paying students and public scrutiny: http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/u...&Number=433547
I'm not sure what your point is, that's a public announcement of a workshop with Dan.

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
I have found photos here:
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...4764115&type=3

Here we find Dan commenting on the similarity between what he is teaching and what this instructor is teaching:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...22756738846126

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10351

The photos show grounding and unbalancing exercises. This is not new. This is in Tai Chi and many other arts. Read Sugawara's books on the Japanese and Chinese arts.
Well that's the whole point, right? Dan never said it was new - he said it was old. Ueshiba said it was new.

The basic martial training of Aiki is, I believe, the same in Ueshiba as it was in Daito-ryu, as it was in China, allowing for differences in external expression. Ueshiba did take that paradigm and extend it into a philosophical expression of his beliefs and ideals - that's the "new" part.

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
This instructor is pushing the idea that Ukemi, the cooperative nature of training, is the problem. I take this as support for the idea that Dan agrees. This is where I think he's way wrong. Exercises are fine. But they need to be incorporated in waza. Aikido is not about fighting back. I can teach the 50 year old 4'8" student to cage fight. I can teach her to evade and blend.

The idea that the blending notion of Aikido can't work, or that people who train in cooperative training, can't use Aikido as this instructor claims, and Dan seems to endorse, is contradicted by all the people who have trained in a cooperative manner and then used their Aikido in dangerous situations. Maybe you all live in safe places. Aikido has been tested time and time again by people whom I know personally.
You really ought to get with Dan - in a room full of senior Aikido folks, one of the things that he yells at us the most for is fighting back. He's softer than anyone I know. And even Dan uses cooperative training - up to a point.

Best,

Chris

 
Old 11-11-2011, 03:40 PM   #134
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Sure, go back to the commercial. Aikido is just Aiki Ju Jitsu and everyone in Aikido sucks because they believed the things the O'Sensei said. Cooperative training is a joke and not what O'Sensei had in mind.
I think you're conveniently misrepresenting what has been said, many times, so that you can continue your passive aggressive post streak. More power to you I suppose.
 
Old 11-11-2011, 03:40 PM   #135
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Pranin Sensei also mistakenly assumed that O'Sensei not teaching much meant that he wasn't involved in instruction at Hombu. This is false. He supervised Saotome Sensei almost every morning. He probably supervised others as well. Have you read Dobson Sensei's book? He was involved.
Ken
Did you train with Terry Dobson at all? If you did it would have had to have been during a very small window of time after your starting Aikido in 1991 and Terry's passing in 1992. I spent some time around Terry here in California during the 1979 to 1984 window when he was out here. I arranged for Terry to be part of a weekend seminar in Southern California, spent a weekend with him and Saotome Sensei where they were the featured teachers here in the local mountains, and some other occasions in the Bay Area. I don't remember Terry's Aikido looking anything like what is called modern Aikido. He didn't talk that way and he didn't move that way. What I got from Terry when taking ukemi was an overpowering sense of mass and size, beyond what was his actual large presence. It just sort of enveloped you and squeezed you down onto the mat. Once he called me up to punch him and I could not get set to actually deliver the punch, I could not settle. Terry was just looking at me and waiting. All of a sudden things cleared, I set up and punched. What ever he was doing to me was not in the modern Aikido set of training and it is not something I ever felt from any of the other Japanese Shihan in this country as direct representatives of the Aikikai. What Terry was doing was something he likely got from O'Sensei though I have not seen any evidence that it was passed on to anyone else post WWII. Terry had some other interesting stories about O'Sensei, but they are not for me to try to understand and pass along. In those days Saotome Sensei was here on his own.

As for Dan, I have had him out here 2 times. Not once did he do any waza or even talk about Aikido waza. What we did were drills that could lead to enhanced skills that would support a greater range of body applications.....like going to V8 engine in your car from a 4, then adding turbo chargers, then enhance power steering, enchanted power brakes, enhanced sensing tools and GPS along with a lot more. All things that would help with your current practice, not replace it. So I am at a loss as to what your true purpose is here.

Just go straight
Gary
 
Old 11-11-2011, 03:42 PM   #136
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Mr McGrew
You came in making statements about me that are not correct, stating positions I "supposedly" hold, and misquoting me. People who have have trained with me, or at least accurately read what I say are correcting you. You are now calling it a commercial for me.

What would you like, for everyone to just shut up and let you rant?

FWIW, you are the one offering the insults...cowards, I need to come clean...and such. I have trained with saotomes senior students, this is not a level of discourse I have ever seen.
I refused to revisit sixteen years of issues with you, after reading the quality of your replies, I think it was a wise choice.
Dan
Dan, you again claim not to be engaging with me, yet you do. I have not ranted, I have asked questions. I have quoted O'Sensei in doing so. You, Matt, and Chris, and others, have not responded to any of the counter-evidence that I have provided. If I have misrepresented anything you said, please clarify. I went to the trouble to read all your old posts in an honest attempt to follow the argument you are making. It's just not clear what you are claiming.

Again:

Are you against the cooperative training approach?
Do you claim that O'Sensei was against the cooperative training approach?
Do you claim that there is no difference between Ju Jitsu and Aikido?
Do you claim that O'Sensei was not religious?
Do you claim that no students of O'Sensei can do the Aikido that O'Sensei was showing them and wanted them to do? If some could do it please indicate which ones.
Do you claim that Aikido does not work by blending with energy?
Is internal balance breaking the only way to do Aikido or is is also ok to break balance externally using the momentum of Uke?
To the extent that any of these claims are claims that you make, how do you reconcile them with the quotes I have provided from O'Sensei that seem to contradict them?

You have not trained "Saotome Sensei's senior students." You have trained some of his senior students.

I have called this a commercial because your seminars are closed, you make bold claims, your followers make bold claims, and yet you don't systematically back them up. I don't know what it is you do. I suspect I have experienced it indirectly from people who have trained with you. What I have experienced has some value. It's the rejection of cooperative training that I take issue with. If this is a discussion of O'Sensei's Aiki, shouldn't we consider what he said about the source of his Aiki? You have, I think, argued that people need to look at what O'Sensei really believed regarding a number of issues including religion. When I point out quotes that contradict your position you resort to posts like the one I'm not responding to.
 
Old 11-11-2011, 03:48 PM   #137
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

O'Sensei said that Aikido was different than Daito-ryu. This is not a matter of mistranslation. If you and others are right, you need to convince us that we should decide that O'Sensei was deluding himself, or lying, or need to make a better case that all the translations are wrong. I can't accept what you are saying on face value given what I have read and what I have been taught. I'm not denying that there was and is Aiki in other arts. I'm not saying that Aikido is the only thing worth training. I'm saying that part of what makes Aikido what it is is the cooperative training approach, the system, as O'Sensei described it to Saotome Sensei. Though I don't share O'Sensei's spiritual beliefs, they also were central to how he believed his Aikido worked. It should not be dismissed.
Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I'm not sure what your point is, that's a public announcement of a workshop with Dan.

Well that's the whole point, right? Dan never said it was new - he said it was old. Ueshiba said it was new.

The basic martial training of Aiki is, I believe, the same in Ueshiba as it was in Daito-ryu, as it was in China, allowing for differences in external expression. Ueshiba did take that paradigm and extend it into a philosophical expression of his beliefs and ideals - that's the "new" part.

You really ought to get with Dan - in a room full of senior Aikido folks, one of the things that he yells at us the most for is fighting back. He's softer than anyone I know. And even Dan uses cooperative training - up to a point.

Best,

Chris
 
Old 11-11-2011, 04:09 PM   #138
Chris Li
 
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
O'Sensei said that Aikido was different than Daito-ryu. This is not a matter of mistranslation. If you and others are right, you need to convince us that we should decide that O'Sensei was deluding himself, or lying, or need to make a better case that all the translations are wrong. I can't accept what you are saying on face value given what I have read and what I have been taught. I'm not denying that there was and is Aiki in other arts. I'm not saying that Aikido is the only thing worth training. I'm saying that part of what makes Aikido what it is is the cooperative training approach, the system, as O'Sensei described it to Saotome Sensei. Though I don't share O'Sensei's spiritual beliefs, they also were central to how he believed his Aikido worked. It should not be dismissed.
He also said that he and other people were possessed by the Kami. If everything that he said is gospel, well...

I've no particular need to convince you, or anybody else - but I would recommend that you check it out, I think that you would find it interesting.

Best,

Chris

 
Old 11-11-2011, 04:13 PM   #139
Chris Li
 
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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I have called this a commercial because your seminars are closed, you make bold claims, your followers make bold claims, and yet you don't systematically back them up. I don't know what it is you do.
If you don't know what it is that he does, than how can you pronounce the case closed?

As for closed seminars - nobody that I know of who's applied out here has ever been turned down, and the evening session were wide open. It's not even as strict as - training with Ueshiba was. I don't get your point.

And for the record, I'm not a follower - I don't think Dan even takes followers. But we are friends.

Best,

Chris

 
Old 11-11-2011, 04:14 PM   #140
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
This instructor is pushing the idea that Ukemi, the cooperative nature of training, is the problem. I take this as support for the idea that Dan agrees. This is where I think he's way wrong. Exercises are fine. But they need to be incorporated in waza. Aikido is not about fighting back. I can teach the 50 year old 4'8" student to cage fight. I can teach her to evade and blend.
I have heard, from the same teacher (possibly during the same class), both the observation that resistive training is idiotic, and the idea that cooperative training has been disastrous for aikido. Both statements can be true. Context is everything.

On one hand, you have the overly resistive paradigm, in which uke clamps down and refuses to budge, even when it's in his best interest to do so. On the other, you have the overly cooperative paradigm, in which uke surrenders his own balance and leaps in the air at the slightest finger flick in his direction. Neither is particularly conducive to the development of good aikido. (Nor, paradoxically, does either have much to do with "fighting back.")

But since Dan is hardly the first person to make such an observation, doesn't teach aikido, and in fact encourages a cooperative paradigm in his own classes, I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Unless your primary complaint is really about his tendency to comment on the state of the emperor's clothes. Or his failure to use language that fits the "aikido=peace, love and understanding" world view.

Katherine
 
Old 11-11-2011, 04:15 PM   #141
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
O'Sensei said that Aikido was different than Daito-ryu. This is not a matter of mistranslation. If you and others are right, you need to convince us that we should decide that O'Sensei was deluding himself, or lying, or need to make a better case that all the translations are wrong. I can't accept what you are saying on face value given what I have read and what I have been taught. I'm not denying that there was and is Aiki in other arts. I'm not saying that Aikido is the only thing worth training. I'm saying that part of what makes Aikido what it is is the cooperative training approach, the system, as O'Sensei described it to Saotome Sensei. Though I don't share O'Sensei's spiritual beliefs, they also were central to how he believed his Aikido worked. It should not be dismissed.
I'm no expert in the history of Aikido or the history of Dan's statements on aikiweb, but I'd say we have been doing lots of cooperative training in Dan's seminars. I never got the impression that Dan dismisses cooperative training. Why do you think he does?
 
Old 11-11-2011, 04:25 PM   #142
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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You, Matt, and Chris, and others, have not responded to any of the counter-evidence that I have provided.
I was commenting on your tone of posts and the specific notion that there is "no" aiki in Aikido, which I don't think is meant to be taken literally. I've had a problem with remarks like that in the past, but I think I understand what people mean by them now. Personal conventions of language aren't always readily compatible and often distract from the topic.

Quote:
Are you against the cooperative training approach?
Do you claim that O'Sensei was against the cooperative training approach?
I am not speaking for anyone; just offering my ill-informed take, but I think it's more correct to say the supposed "problem" isn't cooperation, but rather over-cooperation. I only got to experience Dan's methods at a glance (in the "intro" part of the course), but we used cooperative practice to work on connection issues.
In the past I got the impression the Aikido exercises were supposed to be false and that "Dan's crew" used different exercises. Now I see many of the exercises are the same, but done with different emphasis/understanding. My experience suggests that what might set him apart from other people is the amount of personal instruction he employs. According to some very very highly experienced people, Dan has a very deep understanding (relative to most people, at the least) of "IT" and its role in developing aiki, so his insistance on more personalized instruction probably makes a big difference when compared to some other seminars.

With regard to O Sensei not being religious, I think there is a quote of him saying he is a budo man, not a religious man, but I can't find it. I think his pronounced spirituality fits the bill for what many people mean by "religious." So here I think the problem comes from different shades of meaning.
My two bits.
Take care,
Matt

Last edited by mathewjgano : 11-11-2011 at 04:28 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 11-11-2011, 04:27 PM   #143
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Sure, go back to the commercial. Aikido is just Aiki Ju Jitsu and everyone in Aikido sucks because they believed the things the O'Sensei said. Cooperative training is a joke and not what O'Sensei had in mind.
Here are some simple facts for consideration:

1. There is a difference between Aiki and Aikido - Dan does not teach Aikido, but his does teach ways to develop Aiki.

2. There is a difference between external blending with energy and internal blending with energy - Dan does not teach external blending.

3. There is a difference between Ueshiba's teachings before and after the war - Dan's training is more aligned to his before war stuff.

4. As far as translations go, Dan and Chris have access to some original materiel that when viewed within the proper context is very revealing as to what was truly meant - and as Chis stated, it is not necessary what was mistranslated, but more of what was left out of a translation because the translator could not comprehend the applied context.

Bottom line here is that you are a mid level instructor in an American Aikido organization and you have been following the doctrine of your organization religiously. Then along come some folks indicating there may be more to your art that has been lost over the years - you take that as an insult and come swinging in here with your own insults calling us cowards and accusing us of commercialism. Some folks try to explain to you that is not true and recommenced you go back and do some more research on the topic, etc. You do some modicum of research and come back here with the same accusations and insults - if you truly had any clue as to the nature of the people you are accusing here, you would clearly see has laughable your assertions are, as I am sure those that do know us are doing reading your posts - if any commercialism is going on here it is from your position since you need to maintain your student base and you probably can't do that unless you attack any perceived challenges to the basis of your Aikido system. For the record, there is no Dan organization, there are no Dan membership fees, this is no rank, and absolutely NO ONE is making any money from any training activities with Dan - period!

So you don't agree with what Dan and some of the rest of us say - well, OK - move on and do your own thing - we really don't care - your loss not ours.

FWIW

Greg
 
Old 11-11-2011, 04:41 PM   #144
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
I can teach the 50 year old 4'8" student to cage fight. I can teach her to evade and blend.
I doubt it.

 
Old 11-11-2011, 05:03 PM   #145
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
I'm no expert in the history of Aikido or the history of Dan's statements on aikiweb, but I'd say we have been doing lots of cooperative training in Dan's seminars. I never got the impression that Dan dismisses cooperative training. Why do you think he does?
He said he approved of what the MMA teacher I posted the video of was saying. The teacher was saying that the cooperative training in Aikido is BS. Therefore, it appears, that Dan was endorsing those views.

I am also responding to various posts that Dan has made over the years. If you go through them you find examples of him, and Mark and others who follow his teachings, strongly suggesting that they are opposed to the cooperative nature of Aikido training. There's a post where he says it's not about blending. There are numerous posts where his says it is not about the relationship between Uke and Nage (i.e. blending) but about what he calls body conditioning and power (both terms that he and others refuse to define). I suppose I could dig up all these quotes and then put them in a post if it would be helpful.

It would be so much easier if these folks would just explain themselves, what they are doing, what they believe, and why, instead of saying we have to go to a seminar to find out for ourselves.
 
Old 11-11-2011, 05:06 PM   #146
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
I'm no expert in the history of Aikido or the history of Dan's statements on aikiweb, but I'd say we have been doing lots of cooperative training in Dan's seminars. I never got the impression that Dan dismisses cooperative training. Why do you think he does?
He said he approved of what the MMA teacher I posted the video of was saying. The teacher was saying that the cooperative training in Aikido is BS. Therefore, it appears, that Dan was endorsing those views.

I am also responding to various posts that Dan has made over the years. If you go through them you find examples of him, and Mark and others who follow his teachings, strongly suggesting that they are opposed to the cooperative nature of Aikido training. There's a post when he says why would Uke ever chose to fall down (i.e. take ukemi) in response to a strike (i.e. kokyu tanden ho). At that time Mark actually disagreed with him. There's a post where he says it's not about blending. There are numerous posts where his says it is not about the relationship between Uke and Nage (i.e. blending) but about what he calls body conditioning and power (both terms that he and others refuse to define). I suppose I could dig up all these quotes and then put them in a post if it would be helpful.

It would be so much easier if these folks would just explain themselves, what they are doing, what they believe, and why, instead of saying we have to go to a seminar to find out for ourselves.
 
Old 11-11-2011, 05:12 PM   #147
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Mathew, point to a post when I deny the existence of Aiki in Aikido. I am defending O'Sensei's belief that it was Ai Ki Do. Dan has agued that it was only Aiki. It's ok if he believes that. It's just not ok, as he has done based on Chris's new translations, to claim that O'Sensei also argue that it was only Aiki. That's just disrespecting O'Sensei. I don't believe everything he believed. But I try to understand what he believed and how it informed his practice.

I have provided two interviews in this discussion where O'Sensei describes his religious beliefs. I have pointed to religious symbols in most dojos that we have as tradition from O'Sensei. This shows he was religious. If people are going to claim the translations are completely wrong then they need to back that up with new translations. The comment you are referring to about budo being beyond religion seems to indicate that he was beyond denominational thinking. That is he trained the true religion.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I was commenting on your tone of posts and the specific notion that there is "no" aiki in Aikido, which I don't think is meant to be taken literally. I've had a problem with remarks like that in the past, but I think I understand what people mean by them now. Personal conventions of language aren't always readily compatible and often distract from the topic.

I am not speaking for anyone; just offering my ill-informed take, but I think it's more correct to say the supposed "problem" isn't cooperation, but rather over-cooperation. I only got to experience Dan's methods at a glance (in the "intro" part of the course), but we used cooperative practice to work on connection issues.
In the past I got the impression the Aikido exercises were supposed to be false and that "Dan's crew" used different exercises. Now I see many of the exercises are the same, but done with different emphasis/understanding. My experience suggests that what might set him apart from other people is the amount of personal instruction he employs. According to some very very highly experienced people, Dan has a very deep understanding (relative to most people, at the least) of "IT" and its role in developing aiki, so his insistance on more personalized instruction probably makes a big difference when compared to some other seminars.

With regard to O Sensei not being religious, I think there is a quote of him saying he is a budo man, not a religious man, but I can't find it. I think his pronounced spirituality fits the bill for what many people mean by "religious." So here I think the problem comes from different shades of meaning.
My two bits.
Take care,
Matt
 
Old 11-11-2011, 05:13 PM   #148
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
He also said that he and other people were possessed by the Kami. If everything that he said is gospel, well...

I've no particular need to convince you, or anybody else - but I would recommend that you check it out, I think that you would find it interesting.

Best,

Chris
So, Chris, you are admitting that O'Sensei was religious? Possession by Kami is religious. It's so hard to follow what you people believe. It seems to keep changing.
 
Old 11-11-2011, 05:14 PM   #149
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I doubt it.
This was supposed to say can't teach her to cage fight. Typo. But thanks for the insults. It appears to be rather petty.
 
Old 11-11-2011, 05:19 PM   #150
Chris Li
 
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
He said he approved of what the MMA teacher I posted the video of was saying. The teacher was saying that the cooperative training in Aikido is BS. Therefore, it appears, that Dan was endorsing those views.

I am also responding to various posts that Dan has made over the years. If you go through them you find examples of him, and Mark and others who follow his teachings, strongly suggesting that they are opposed to the cooperative nature of Aikido training. There's a post where he says it's not about blending. There are numerous posts where his says it is not about the relationship between Uke and Nage (i.e. blending) but about what he calls body conditioning and power (both terms that he and others refuse to define). I suppose I could dig up all these quotes and then put them in a post if it would be helpful.

It would be so much easier if these folks would just explain themselves, what they are doing, what they believe, and why, instead of saying we have to go to a seminar to find out for ourselves.
Sure, cooperative training in Aikido. Mainly, because most of the time the pedagogy isn't clear and people end up over-cooperating to no purpose.

Dan has made some pretty extensive posts about what he's doing - but lot of what he says won't make that much sense without some hands on.

Instead of dismissing everything and demanding that we prove it, how about asking just one specific question at a time, if you really want to begin a discussion.

Best,

Chris

 

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