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Old 11-11-2011, 11:03 AM   #101
Allen Beebe
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Just read this quote this morning and enjoyed it:

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." ~ Herbert Spencer (1820 - 1903)

~ Allen Beebe
 
Old 11-11-2011, 11:10 AM   #102
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
They say history repeats itself... on aikiweb it does so almost weekly.
seems its part of the tanren.
 
Old 11-11-2011, 11:13 AM   #103
gregstec
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
They say history repeats itself... on aikiweb it does so almost weekly.

You guys should really just let people be. Though I have yet to work with Dan, I am in the same boat as "his people" when it comes to my feelings on these skills. They are the heart of everything aikido was supposed to be and they have been, by and large, completely missing within the art. If people are interested, let them find it themselves. It doesn't matter how great you tell people it is, if they don't want it, then it just doesn't matter. Even among the people who have felt it, believe in it and want it, only a few are actually going to really get anywhere with it. So why waste the time and energy recycling the same posts from five years ago for people who aren't interested enough to just get out and see for themselves? Just leave them to do whatever it is they want to do.
Hi Jason,

I am with you on all of this - people should be left alone to pursue what it is they want to pursue regardless of whether it is aligned to someone else's beliefs or not. This constant defense of a position against those unwilling to spend time and effort to take an objective look at something different is futile. If the attacker had the maturity and sense of true self confidence their ego exhibits, they would not be jumping in with an uneducated angry attack accusing others of the short comings they themselves possess. As one grows and matures, this all becomes very evident - unfortunately, the time it takes for this lesson to sink in is proportional to the size of the ego and quantity of deficiencies one has.

And just to keep this post on topic, I do not think the above was a problem with Ueshiba's Aiki

All the best

Greg
 
Old 11-11-2011, 11:45 AM   #104
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

This is the 2nd time Dan, pretending not to respond to me, has done so. It is also the 2nd time he has claimed that I am somehow contracting the teachings of my seniors. That is an insult. I am not contradicting my instructors or the Sempi who I have learned from. In particular I have trained with and had a number of conversations about these issues with Saotome Sensei and Ikeda Sensei, as well as with my direct teachers, and numerous senior instructors in ASU. I have also trained with senior students in USAF and various Shihans and their students at seminars. Despite Dan's attempts at insult I am not junior or new to Aikido and the martial arts in general. I will not discuss Katori beyond saying that I have also learned from high level practitioners in the art. I am junior in Katori and have taken an oath not to discuss the teachings in Katori. Everything I have posted I have learned directly from my instructors.

I have quoted O'Sensei and I have quoted Saotome Sensei, quotes that contradict what Dan and his followers seem to be claiming. There has been no response to these quotes. No response to the questions posed. No response to the arguments raised in response to the claims they seem to be making. For example, the wholly false claim that O'Sensei wasn't religious/spiritual. Also ignored is the counter evidence to the claim that O'Sensei was not involved in training his senior students after the war. If your ideas can't hold up to scrutiny why do you hint at them on an international forum? If they can hold up to scrutiny why not simply respond to the questions, Etc.?

This discussion and the others that they make turn out to be little more than advertisements for Dan's seminars. I'm sure keeping some mystery about what he is doing (the lack of clear description, video, Etc.) helps to bring people in. So my crime is having interrupted the commercial.

There are loads of problems in modern Aikido, in my opinion, that have to do with people engaging in heavy static practice lacking an understanding of the training system that O'Sensei developed and the general approach, whether practices softly or not, that thinks Nage DOES Aikido to Uke. This is not how Aikido works. So if Dan if violating the system that O'Sensei developed, which I assume his is given statements he has made over the years but can't be sure as he won't come clean about what IT is that he's' doing, then I have a problem with calling it Aikido. I say this out of respect for O'Sensei and for my instructors. What Dan does may be very good, but the system of training is part of Aikido. Blending and leading energy are parts of Aikido. If he is contradicting that, he's wrong. Pretty much anything is an improvement on the heavy static training that we find in most pre-war Aikido, so that's an easy bar to reach as far as helping people with their Aikido development.

Of course there is Aiki in Aikido. A better name for Ai Ki Do would have been Aiki Ki Do. I certainly never said that there is not. But beyond this I am not sure what Dan and company are trying to say. They can't express a clear thought. They evade. They insult. They say that I'm not open minded and yet won't describe what it is I am supposed to be more open minded about. But they don't explain what it is that they are doing that is supposedly superior to all Aikido since O'Sensei. When they make claims like that I must assume they also mean my teachers, and to that I object. They are wrong. My teachers have Aiki and they have Ai Ki Do.

There is a basic logical problem in the arguments that are being made. If what they are doing is new and improved, then it is not Aikido. If what they are doing is old, then Aikido was not a new art. They seem to make both of these contradictory claims at different times. Studying a different art can inform Aikido. I have not disputed that. What Dan does may be complimentary to Aikido. This is the 3rd time I've had to state this. What Dan is doing may be very good. This is the 3rd time I have had to state this. But if what he is doing requires abandoning the cooperative training process that O'Sensei developed, then it is not Aikido. If people abandon the training process that O'Sensei developed, according to what O'Sensei and Saotome Sensei have written and said, then they have moved over to a new art. That's fine. Just don't call it Aikido.

The name of this discussion thread is Ueshiba's Aiki. I think you want to discuss Dan's Aiki.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
The most ardent, derogatory comments I have heard about Aikido are FROM it's teachers. I am continually told I have breathed a new hope into their art. Both for infusing stunning aiki back in and for showing how it can transform from MMA to waza.
I am not inclined to debate with Mr. McGraw when his seniors agree with me and recognize that I am working to support Aikido, and not harm it.
I think he has some notion that I am interested in debating. something with him.
Dan

Last edited by Ken McGrew : 11-11-2011 at 11:57 AM.
 
Old 11-11-2011, 11:56 AM   #105
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Changing gears a bit, but still on the subject of Ueshiba's Aiki, I enjoyed the video posted on this thread:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxQd_kBse-c&feature=fvst

and noticed that the clip of O-sensei's last demo looks remarkably like Shioda sensei's demos in choice of content. Now, I think that says a lot in and of itself, but what I wanted to ask about was the attribution by some of certain elements of Shioda sensei's demo to the influence of Kodo Horikawa. I always wondered about this because I never saw much that I didn't recognize, content wise, from my own sensei in Shioda sensei's demos. So, my question is, are the "Kodo elements" demonstrated by Shioda present in Ueshiba's demo? If so, wouldn't that point to a different possible source of those elements in Shioda's demo?

Just trying to sort things out for myself. Shioda, Takuma, etc all are remarkably familiar to me for obvious reasons. When a "twist" is potentially thrown in the mix I like to try to sort it out for myself.

On another note (of Ueshiba's Aiki), relating to the video, Ueshiba obviously is demonstrating his way of Aiki in each demo (What else would he be demonstrating?), regardless of the venue i.e. jo -push, body push, weapons demo, or taijutsu waza. To my mind this is very good teaching practice, to demonstrate the same thing in different modalities thereby increasing the odds that the essence of the demo is more likely to be discerned from, rather than conflated with, the venue of demonstration. If such is the case, Aiki ought to present and recognizable in each demo. In fact, apart from it being the same person demonstrating each time, the common element within each demo ought to be Aiki. In other words, in order to discern what Aiki is, as demonstrated by Ueshiba sensei, find the common element in each demo, presumably Ueshiba and Aiki. (Of course Ueshiba said, "I am Aiki." So he will be present in each of his demos.)

~ Allen Beebe
 
Old 11-11-2011, 12:07 PM   #106
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Despite Dan's attempts at insult I am not junior or new to Aikido and the martial arts in general.
I read your bio. You started aikido the same year I did. I'm no beginner, but I don't claim any particular mastery either. So I might suggest that you empty your cup.

Quote:
I have quoted O'Sensei and I have quoted Saotome Sensei, quotes that contradict what Dan and his followers seem to be claiming. There has been no response to these quotes.
Are you fluent in Japanese? Have you read either author in the original Japanese? If not, I'm not sure how you can speak to the mistranslation issue.

Quote:
There are loads of problems in modern Aikido, in my opinion, that have to do with people engaging in heavy static practice lacking an understanding of the training system that O'Sensei developed and the general approach, whether practices softly or not, that thinks Nage DOES Aikido to Uke. This is not how Aikido works. So if Dan if violating the system that O'Sensei developed, which I assume his is given statements he has made over the years but can't be sure as he won't come clean about what IT is that he's' doing, then I have a problem with calling it Aikido. I say this out of respect for O'Sensei and for my instructors. What Dan does may be very good, but the system of training is part of Aikido. Blending and leading energy are parts of Aikido. If he is contradicting that, he's wrong. Pretty much anything is an improvement on the heavy static training that we find in most pre-war Aikido, so that's an easy bar to reach as far as helping people with their Aikido development.
Dan is not teaching aikido. He does not claim to be teaching aikido. He is teaching a set of body skills that have the potential to enhance one's aikido. If you really had read his previous posts as carefully as you claim, you would know this.

As for the whole issue of "blending" and "leading energy"... That's a whole other topic in itself. For our purposes here, let's just say that there is great variation in the way those aspects are approached, and that it's impossible for *all* of the variations to be true to Ueshiba Sensei's original teaching. (Because they're contradictory.) While Dan is not teaching aikido, I see no conflict between the skills he is teaching and aikido as my teachers (who include Ikeda and Saotome Sensei) explain it. If you think there is, perhaps your understanding of those terms might be incomplete. Or perhaps you are reading something into Dan's posts that is not actually there in his in-person instruction.

Katherine
 
Old 11-11-2011, 12:14 PM   #107
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Here is O'Sensei contradicting many of the claims made by Dan and company, in spoken Japanese that is not prone to translation problems:

http://www.aikidofaq.com/interviews/interviews.html

How can you know better than O'Sensei what he was doing? Note that:

He calls Aikido a new and different art
Note his describing spiritual power. Note him saying budo is a spiritual practice.
Note his describing blending with the energy of the opponent
Note his stating that Aikido works by not engaging in the fight, that in Aikido you "never go against the attacker's power."
Note him describing the numerous arts he trained in
Note him stating that he DID NOT learn Aikido from Takeda, though he learned much from Takeda in general, and that he discovered Aikido around 1925 when he had his enlightenment moment
Note him describing his strength as Ki strength not physical strength. Note his description of the flow of Ki.

This has been irimi. Anyone who reads this interview honestly will see that the claims of Dan and company are refuted by O'Sensei himself. Debate over.
 
Old 11-11-2011, 12:20 PM   #108
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Here is O'Sensei contradicting many of the claims made by Dan and company, in spoken Japanese that is not prone to translation problems:

http://www.aikidofaq.com/interviews/interviews.html
Wow, I can read Japanese.

 
Old 11-11-2011, 12:24 PM   #109
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

I never claimed to be a master. I claimed to be able to read. I claimed to have eyes and ears. I claimed to listen to what O'Sensei and my other teachers taught. My cup is full of Saotome Sensei.

I don't need to be fluent in Japanese. Chris can provide examples of the translation problems that he says completely undermine the common translations. The examples he gave, I think four words, did not change the meaning of the passages in the way he claimed that they do. He's the one making a claim. He has to make the case, not I.

Dan has claimed to be teaching Aikido. He said that he was showing "true Aikido" in earlier posts. Moreover, he and his followers have claimed that Aikido is not an original art, so he's teaching the art that Aikido stole from.

I have no idea if what Dan is teaching contradicts Saotome Sensei and Ikeda Sensei. All I can go by are these inarticulate posts. Again, what Dan does may be good. Again, it may be able to inform Aikido at times. To the extent that he is teaching a different way of training, a way that is not based on O'Sensei's system of cooperative training, then it is not Aikido. These are O'Sensei's words as reported by Saotome Sensei and which I quoted above.

Dan and others have repeatedly claimed that no modern Aikido reflects what O'Sensei did or wanted us to be doing. I know this claim is false because Saotome Sensei has personally told me that O'Sensei approved of his Aikido practice and teaching. I'll take my teachers word on that.

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I read your bio. You started aikido the same year I did. I'm no beginner, but I don't claim any particular mastery either. So I might suggest that you empty your cup.

Are you fluent in Japanese? Have you read either author in the original Japanese? If not, I'm not sure how you can speak to the mistranslation issue.

Dan is not teaching aikido. He does not claim to be teaching aikido. He is teaching a set of body skills that have the potential to enhance one's aikido. If you really had read his previous posts as carefully as you claim, you would know this.

As for the whole issue of "blending" and "leading energy"... That's a whole other topic in itself. For our purposes here, let's just say that there is great variation in the way those aspects are approached, and that it's impossible for *all* of the variations to be true to Ueshiba Sensei's original teaching. (Because they're contradictory.) While Dan is not teaching aikido, I see no conflict between the skills he is teaching and aikido as my teachers (who include Ikeda and Saotome Sensei) explain it. If you think there is, perhaps your understanding of those terms might be incomplete. Or perhaps you are reading something into Dan's posts that is not actually there in his in-person instruction.

Katherine
 
Old 11-11-2011, 12:27 PM   #110
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Wow, I can read Japanese.
This was translated by Pranin Sensei who was held up earlier as an authority for Mark and Dan's arguments. Which is it? Reliable translator or not?
 
Old 11-11-2011, 12:32 PM   #111
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Also note the agreement between O'Sensei and Doshu, not some widely different notions of Aikido as has been claimed.

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Here is O'Sensei contradicting many of the claims made by Dan and company, in spoken Japanese that is not prone to translation problems:

http://www.aikidofaq.com/interviews/interviews.html

How can you know better than O'Sensei what he was doing? Note that:

He calls Aikido a new and different art
Note his describing spiritual power. Note him saying budo is a spiritual practice.
Note his describing blending with the energy of the opponent
Note his stating that Aikido works by not engaging in the fight, that in Aikido you "never go against the attacker's power."
Note him describing the numerous arts he trained in
Note him stating that he DID NOT learn Aikido from Takeda, though he learned much from Takeda in general, and that he discovered Aikido around 1925 when he had his enlightenment moment
Note him describing his strength as Ki strength not physical strength. Note his description of the flow of Ki.

This has been irimi. Anyone who reads this interview honestly will see that the claims of Dan and company are refuted by O'Sensei himself. Debate over.
 
Old 11-11-2011, 12:39 PM   #112
Chris Li
 
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post

I don't need to be fluent in Japanese. Chris can provide examples of the translation problems that he says completely undermine the common translations. The examples he gave, I think four words, did not change the meaning of the passages in the way he claimed that they do. He's the one making a claim. He has to make the case, not I.
There are a whole lot more quotes - some of which have been posted, some not. They are not really (yet) for the use of the community in general, I just made them for myself and my friends. What they do show is a consistent link to a terminology that is common in Chinese internal martial arts - many of them being direct or indirect quotes from classic texts. I don't see that it undermines anything so much as showing how much was missed. If you read the thread on Kamae you'll see that quite a lot of material was intentionally omitted, and that the material in question is quite telling if you have the background to understand what's being talked about.

That the same material exists in Daito-ryu and other Japanese Koryu just goes to show the common threads that flow through the arts - Ellis did a much better job of explaining this in "Hidden in Plain Sight", which I recommend highly.

And you do need to be careful about "I don't need to be fluent in Japanese" if you're quoting translated texts as "debate over".

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Dan has claimed to be teaching Aikido. He said that he was showing "true Aikido" in earlier posts. Moreover, he and his followers have claimed that Aikido is not an original art, so he's teaching the art that Aikido stole from.
Again, Dan does not claim to teach Aikido - but he does teach Aiki. As to Ueshiba's history in Daito-ryu, the dates and times are all a matter of record. Do the math and compare his study time in other arts with his time in Daito-ryu - the only are that he held legitimate teaching credentials in, and the only art that he ever issued licenses in (other than his own).

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
I know this claim is false because Saotome Sensei has personally told me that O'Sensei approved of his Aikido practice and teaching. I'll take my teachers word on that.
And yet, the students of Ueshiba couldn't grasp enough to get to his level (ask them, they'll say the same). The same could be said of Saotome's students. Whether what he personally is doing is valid is irrelevant to the issue of whether or not he can transmit it successfully.

Best,

Chris

 
Old 11-11-2011, 12:41 PM   #113
MM
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Jun,
Can you split off the discussion started by Ken McGrew into its own thread? That way the original poster can get back to discussing the original post topic.

Thanks,
Mark
 
Old 11-11-2011, 12:42 PM   #114
Chris Li
 
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
This was translated by Pranin Sensei who was held up earlier as an authority for Mark and Dan's arguments. Which is it? Reliable translator or not?
That's not a yes or no question. With regards to the dates and the historical record, Stan's research is the gold standard. That doesn't mean, however, that he got everything correct in terms of translation, or even that the translated record (which is a small portion of the complete record), tells the entire story.

Best,

Chris

 
Old 11-11-2011, 12:47 PM   #115
Allen Beebe
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
Changing gears a bit, but still on the subject of Ueshiba's Aiki, I enjoyed the video posted on this thread:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxQd_kBse-c&feature=fvst

and noticed that the clip of O-sensei's last demo looks remarkably like Shioda sensei's demos in choice of content. Now, I think that says a lot in and of itself, but what I wanted to ask about was the attribution by some of certain elements of Shioda sensei's demo to the influence of Kodo Horikawa. I always wondered about this because I never saw much that I didn't recognize, content wise, from my own sensei in Shioda sensei's demos. So, my question is, are the "Kodo elements" demonstrated by Shioda present in Ueshiba's demo? If so, wouldn't that point to a different possible source of those elements in Shioda's demo?

Just trying to sort things out for myself. Shioda, Takuma, etc all are remarkably familiar to me for obvious reasons. When a "twist" is potentially thrown in the mix I like to try to sort it out for myself.

On another note (of Ueshiba's Aiki), relating to the video, Ueshiba obviously is demonstrating his way of Aiki in each demo (What else would he be demonstrating?), regardless of the venue i.e. jo -push, body push, weapons demo, or taijutsu waza. To my mind this is very good teaching practice, to demonstrate the same thing in different modalities thereby increasing the odds that the essence of the demo is more likely to be discerned from, rather than conflated with, the venue of demonstration. If such is the case, Aiki ought to present and recognizable in each demo. In fact, apart from it being the same person demonstrating each time, the common element within each demo ought to be Aiki. In other words, in order to discern what Aiki is, as demonstrated by Ueshiba sensei, find the common element in each demo, presumably Ueshiba and Aiki. (Of course Ueshiba said, "I am Aiki." So he will be present in each of his demos.)
Shameless bump. I'm really curious about my first question!


~ Allen Beebe
 
Old 11-11-2011, 12:51 PM   #116
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

What in the interview with O'Sensei and Doshu do you think is so wrong that it changes the meaning of what was being said? You can get the original from Pranin Sensei.

Pranin Sensei also mistakenly assumed that O'Sensei not teaching much meant that he wasn't involved in instruction at Hombu. This is false. He supervised Saotome Sensei almost every morning. He probably supervised others as well. Have you read Dobson Sensei's book? He was involved.

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
That's not a yes or no question. With regards to the dates and the historical record, Stan's research is the gold standard. That doesn't mean, however, that he got everything correct in terms of translation, or even that the translated record (which is a small portion of the complete record), tells the entire story.

Best,

Chris

Last edited by Ken McGrew : 11-11-2011 at 12:58 PM.
 
Old 11-11-2011, 12:53 PM   #117
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Really?

Jun, how is responding to the claims they are making about O'Sensei's Aiki, in a discussion about O'Sensei's Aiki, going off thread?

Cowards.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Jun,
Can you split off the discussion started by Ken McGrew into its own thread? That way the original poster can get back to discussing the original post topic.

Thanks,
Mark
 
Old 11-11-2011, 12:56 PM   #118
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
Shameless bump. I'm really curious about my first question!

Allen, I don't understand your question. I'm not ignoring your question. I just couldn't fallow what you were asking.

I started in this discussion asking for clarification of what people were claiming. They said they couldn't be bothered and that I should read the earlier posts. I read them. They are not readable. So I said so. I was asked to pose specific questions. I did. They have not been answered. Then the insults started.

This is a discussion about O'Sensei's Aiki. O'Sensei had some things to say about his own Aiki as well as his Ki that seem to contradict the claims being made by Dan and Mark and Chris and others. Rather than responding to this evidence which completely undermines this argument they've asked the moderator to censor me.

This has been a commercial for Dan.
 
Old 11-11-2011, 12:58 PM   #119
kewms
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
I never claimed to be a master. I claimed to be able to read. I claimed to have eyes and ears. I claimed to listen to what O'Sensei and my other teachers taught. My cup is full of Saotome Sensei.
No matter how excellent the tea, you can't have more unless you make room.

Quote:
Dan has claimed to be teaching Aikido. He said that he was showing "true Aikido" in earlier posts. Moreover, he and his followers have claimed that Aikido is not an original art, so he's teaching the art that Aikido stole from.
He is teaching the skills that support "true aikido." He is not teaching aikido. How can you possibly claim otherwise if you haven't been on the mat with him and admit to having no idea what he's teaching?

Quote:
Dan and others have repeatedly claimed that no modern Aikido reflects what O'Sensei did or wanted us to be doing. I know this claim is false because Saotome Sensei has personally told me that O'Sensei approved of his Aikido practice and teaching. I'll take my teachers word on that.
But how many people in the ASU can do what Saotome Sensei can? *That's* the real issue here. That's what has led people -- including Saotome Sensei's direct students -- to look elsewhere. The realization that -- after decades of training -- they not only couldn't do what he can, but weren't on a path that would get them there in this lifetime.

Katherine
 
Old 11-11-2011, 12:58 PM   #120
Eric Joyce
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Really?

Jun, how is responding to the claims they are making about O'Sensei's Aiki, in a discussion about O'Sensei's Aiki, going off thread?

Cowards.
Ken,

I can understand a little bit of your frustration but you need to chilax a bit. I hate to see anyone get all worked up.

Eric Joyce
Otake Han Doshin Ryu Jujutsu
 
Old 11-11-2011, 01:08 PM   #121
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
This was translated by Pranin Sensei who was held up earlier as an authority for Mark and Dan's arguments. Which is it? Reliable translator or not?
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...57&postcount=6

 
Old 11-11-2011, 01:08 PM   #122
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Your use of language here "including Saotome Sensei's direct students - to look elsewhere" is clever. It implies that all, or most, or the most important direct students of O'Sensei have looked elsewhere. Actually only a minority have. By look elsewhere it may imply they've looked to Dan. This is also false. Most who have branched out into other arts have not gone to Dan. Moreover, most who have branched out make distinctions between the other arts they train and Aikido. By direct students you imply that I haven't had much contact with Saotome Sensei. This is not true. I've probably had more conversations with Sensei about these issues than most of his students. Not everyone is interested in the spiritual aspects of Take Muso Aiki, but I am, so I have asked Sensei about these things.

Saotome Sensei and O'Sensei as quoted by him have told us what the right path is. For example, Saotome Sensei can do a particularly difficult Irimi Nage that O'Sensei could do. It took him years to finally get it. He has shown us how to go about getting this technique.

As you are able to write, Katherine, why not use this energy to simply explain what it is that Dan is doing in a way that will be more understandable than the bombosity that has generally been provided instead of clear descriptions? It's not my fault that Dan and his followers have not explained what it is that they are doing. They make lots of claims but don't back them up. Why post at all then if not as an advertisement for seminars and future book sales?

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
No matter how excellent the tea, you can't have more unless you make room.

He is teaching the skills that support "true aikido." He is not teaching aikido. How can you possibly claim otherwise if you haven't been on the mat with him and admit to having no idea what he's teaching?

But how many people in the ASU can do what Saotome Sensei can? *That's* the real issue here. That's what has led people -- including Saotome Sensei's direct students -- to look elsewhere. The realization that -- after decades of training -- they not only couldn't do what he can, but weren't on a path that would get them there in this lifetime.

Katherine

Last edited by Ken McGrew : 11-11-2011 at 01:18 PM.
 
Old 11-11-2011, 01:13 PM   #123
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

I have had training in textual analysis and some training in linguistics. If you think translations are so wrong that they completely undermine the meaning of the statements that I have referred to, then it is up to you to make the case in the specific. The possibility that something might be mistranslated in a manner that undermines the implied argument is not proof that that it was in fact so mistranslated. I provided another link earlier where O'Sensei was speaking on tape. Chris and others can easily check the accuracy of that translation of spoken word. He made many of the same arguments in the first interview I posted and as in the second.
 
Old 11-11-2011, 01:17 PM   #124
kewms
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Your use of language here "including Saotome Sensei's direct students - to look elsewhere" is clever. It implies that all, or most, or the most important direct students of O'Sensei have look elsewhere.
Line-editing a forum post isn't really productive. Why not just edit it to say "some of" Saotome's direct students and leave it at that? As for Ueshiba Sensei's direct students, I have no knowledge and have made no claims.

Quote:
As you are able to write, Katherine, why not use this energy to simply explain what it is that Dan is doing in a way that will be more understandable than the bombosity that has generally been provided instead of clear descriptions?
Because I don't personally understand it well enough. As I said up-thread, it's a set of body skills, not a set of waza, and as such is not easy to describe or to see on video. It's pretty obvious when you put your hands on someone, though.

Katherine
 
Old 11-11-2011, 01:22 PM   #125
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Allen, I don't understand your question. I'm not ignoring your question. I just couldn't fallow what you were asking.
The post you replied to is pretty clear I think:
Quote:
Allen wrote:
are the "Kodo elements" demonstrated by Shioda present in Ueshiba's demo? If so, wouldn't that point to a different possible source of those elements in Shioda's demo?
Quote:
Rather than responding to this evidence which completely undermines this argument they've asked the moderator to censor me.

This has been a commercial for Dan.
Not censor; split the thread. You've called people cowards more than once.

Regarding the idea that "no" modern Aikido reflects O Sensei's Aikido, I get the impression that's not to be taken literally since at the very least many Aikidoka are doing the very things the "IS folks" are proposing to be more authentic. People have a funny habit of using hyperbole when chatting.

Gambarimashyo!
 

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