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Old 11-17-2011, 06:00 AM   #476
Chris Knight
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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His aikido- is the aiki of Daito ryu and is the modified waza of Daito ryu.
* Takeda was the one who gave him his power...aiki. Which he referred to as his power for the rest of his life. He never mentioned aiki before Takeda's stay with him at Ayabe.
* His reputation for great physical strength had already been noted, yet it did not help him at all, with Takeda or with some tough military students. In fact, when he first met Takeda, Takeda left him crying- slumped in the corner.
* Interestingly, the only other arts he was known to have studied had already occurred.
* His enlightenment, by his own admission (in the early 20's) came to him shortly after Takeda's stay with him and it was all about aiki. As he said to his son aiki informed his spiritual pursuits.
thanks for clarifying Dan
 
Old 11-17-2011, 06:07 AM   #477
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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Chris Knight wrote: View Post
have you tested it Demetrio?
I'd like to cross hands with an IS proponent my size, then I could say in what I believe.

 
Old 11-17-2011, 06:09 AM   #478
Chris Knight
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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I'd like to cross hands with an IS proponent my size, then I could say in what I believe
being a proponent of at least 4 martial arts, I would have thought you would have been actively searching to test it....
 
Old 11-17-2011, 06:21 AM   #479
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Maybe. Your view on correct aiki I take it is to do with what Dan does? (I am assuming it is)

But then all those things coming unstuck when meeting it? Now that's quite a bold statement.

I think those kind of things have been around for centuries, it's nothing new. They have been used in martial arts for centuries too. That's nothing new. People using such have overcome opponents and been overcome by opponents for centuries. That's nothing new.

To think it's some kind of all conquering secret is in my view not very wise.

Regards.G.
Internal strength is not aiki
Actually people who are very skilled with it are rare. I have as yet, never met anyone in Aikido with much in the way of connection, power and Aiki, much less highly skilled aiki. Most teachers I have met and crossed hands with tell me they wish they had discovered this decades earlier.

Of course there are many other people with Internal strength (JMA and ICMA), but not all have accomplished aiki skills. Instead they use their IP for power displays. What Ark is doing in the kokyu dosa vids are power displays. I stand people back up on their feet from Kokyu dosa but I do not do it the way he does. While what he is doing is very good, it is still a collision of forces. His power is more developed, so he wins. However, it is not aiki.
With weapons it becomes even more pronounced. Power is a losing gambit with weapons, yet few know how to use aiki there either. I give people bokken and let them use two hands to make a horizontal cut against me, while I hold a bokken at the very end with one hand against their entire two hand "power" cut.
Power...with muscle is the dumbest of the available strengths
Internal power is more accomplished and difficult
Internal power with aiki is far better
Internal power with aiki and being able to fight with it...is the highest level of skill.
And comparatively, few possess those skills.

To quote you
"all those things coming unstuck when meeting it? Now that's quite a bold statement."
It is a statement of fact. The aiki Ueshiba's pursued is daunting, Graham. I'll let you know when I meet an Aikido-ka, anyone, who can stop it with Aikido.

For Mr. McGrew and others, the internet is the best place to discuss it. Why?
In person, it isn't going well for the detractors. You have no where to go and no argument left after that.
"All truth passes through three stages.
First, it is ridiculed.
Second, it is violently opposed.
Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
-Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)
This continues unopposed, in person...because it is self evident to all.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-17-2011 at 06:36 AM.
 
Old 11-17-2011, 06:29 AM   #480
Chris Knight
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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Internal power with aiki is far better
Did you have to travel to find a teacher for this or was this found in your weapons training?
 
Old 11-17-2011, 06:43 AM   #481
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Mr. McGrew,
From your posts you seem to be passionate about your study of aikido. I wonder if there is any reason that would keep you from going and checking out some of this "IS" stuff in person?

With all respect,
Steve Trinkle

 
Old 11-17-2011, 06:49 AM   #482
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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Chris Knight wrote: View Post
Did you have to travel to find a teacher for this or was this found in your weapons training?
Like Sagawa, Ueshiba, and Kodo before me....
First given
Then developed.
I'm not important.
And discussions of individuals only continues to miss the mark. It is far more important to understand why there are so many doing these things and that this work is out there in many forms. That way, it frees everyone's mind to understand they can have it too....for themselves.
Ueshiba, while great, was simply in the end, yet another internal artists...quoting the classics and simply laying out body technology centuries old. His doka of the way, are sometimes direct quotes of Chinese works. Aikido-ka find them inexplicable, others see them for what they were.
It is stupifiyingly dumb for all of those gving us a hard time over; Heaven/ earth /man, six direction training, In yo ho and dual opposing spirals, etc. after it was discovered it was there all along, layed out in Ueshiba's own words, to continue to doubt. You'd think those who knew it all along would be lauded.
Rarely have I seen ignorance....defended so strongly. In the end, many don't want to know where he was pointing, if it means they have to go back and start again.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-17-2011 at 07:01 AM.
 
Old 11-17-2011, 07:04 AM   #483
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
To the best of my knowledge this is how Ueshiba practised: he stayed with a teacher until he felt he was better, or the teacher had nothing left to teach him (that was of interest to him). He really did not avoid testing, he even challenged his own students to do surprise attacks on him...
Like you said; a different level that is for sure.
Funny thing is that later in life he realised true Budo was not about competition, but he kept doing demos/test. However he did so not to compete but to show what he had to offer.
Everything I've read suggests otherwise. Ueshiba dabbled in a few martial arts but never really stayed with them long ... until he met Takeda. Daito ryu is the one and only art that Ueshiba stayed with, became a teacher of, and then progressed on his own.

As for "competition", I would research what Peter Goldsbury had to say on that subject. Very illuminating. It's here on Aikiweb somewhere. Basically, there are different definitions of "competition" and Ueshiba was okay with some but not others. Competition between peers to become better - okay. Olympic Judo type competition - no.
 
Old 11-17-2011, 07:18 AM   #484
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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Chris Knight wrote: View Post
being a proponent of at least 4 martial arts, I would have thought you would have been actively searching to test it....
As interested as in looking for Nessie.

 
Old 11-17-2011, 07:22 AM   #485
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Everything I've read suggests otherwise. Ueshiba dabbled in a few martial arts but never really stayed with them long ... until he met Takeda. Daito ryu is the one and only art that Ueshiba stayed with, became a teacher of, and then progressed on his own.

As for "competition", I would research what Peter Goldsbury had to say on that subject. Very illuminating. It's here on Aikiweb somewhere. Basically, there are different definitions of "competition" and Ueshiba was okay with some but not others. Competition between peers to become better - okay. Olympic Judo type competition - no.
Well, I wrote when he thought he was better, that does not imply that he stayed long. Perhaps what you call dabbling was more than enough for Ueshiba to decide to move on. Mind you he was never looking to master those arts; he was searching.... But I will take your word on it as I have not deeply researched this.
It is this type of competition I referred to, obviously.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
 
Old 11-17-2011, 07:22 AM   #486
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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Another thing I find interesting is this idea that later on he was just a figurehead and didn't actually do much teaching himself. I find this amazing that people would believe this.

He trained up to the day he died. He taught up to that time as well. His whole world was his Aikido 24/7.

This factor I think people should understand a bit better before they think they are 'experts' on him.

Regards.G.
You can find it "interesting" all you want. The research is there to prove that fact. Yes, fact.

"later on" in Ueshiba's life:

1. There was no exhaustive, extensive training with Ueshiba later on in his life.
2. The students didn't get a whole lot of hands on time with Ueshiba. NOTE: This does *NOT* mean that they didn't get hands on time, didn't learn from him, or didn't train with Ueshiba. It means that the myths of having extensive training are wrong. I'm certain that all of them wished they had much more time with Ueshiba than they actually got.
3. The training schedule of both Iwama and Tokyo are out there. Look them up and let us know just how long Ueshiba actually taught each day.
4. Ueshiba had a very busy training schedule and he also had many visitors. Look it up. Where was he and when and for how long? What happened when visitors came?
5. Kisshomaru, Tohei, and other seniors taught most of the classes. Kisshomaru taught most of the "private" classes. Tohei taught a lot of students.
6. A lot of students went outside of hombu to learn. Dig into it and find where some of them went and then come back here and let us know what you've found.
7. Ueshiba trained a lot. He was probably obsessive/compulsive about it. But, he did not teach a lot.

I find it amazing that people would not do the actual research and understand a bit better before they think they are "experts" on him.

For the rest, please do not take this as detracting from the students of Ueshiba. A lot were young and eager to learn. They wanted to learn. They had felt Ueshiba at some point and wanted what he had. Some of them did everything they could to learn or "steal" the secret, even going outside aikido or going to private dojos or going to pre-war students. Their dedication and desire to learn is never in question.
 
Old 11-17-2011, 07:26 AM   #487
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Everything I've read suggests otherwise. Ueshiba dabbled in a few martial arts but never really stayed with them long ... until he met Takeda. Daito ryu is the one and only art that Ueshiba stayed with, became a teacher of, and then progressed on his own.

As for "competition", I would research what Peter Goldsbury had to say on that subject. Very illuminating. It's here on Aikiweb somewhere. Basically, there are different definitions of "competition" and Ueshiba was okay with some but not others. Competition between peers to become better - okay. Olympic Judo type competition - no.
Mark,

In the article Stan posted yesterday, the self-defense world translation of his Asahi interview, Ueshiba keeps things vague enough that one could run with the idea that he ran around mastering various arts and challenging people, but I would agree with you that the timeline just doesn't seem to support it being as extensive as it sounds. DR is definitely the only one that stuck with him though.

Last edited by chillzATL : 11-17-2011 at 07:28 AM.
 
Old 11-17-2011, 07:44 AM   #488
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
Ueshiba keeps things vague enough that one could run with the idea that he ran around mastering various arts and challenging people
Back in my day, we had to walk 20 miles to school in the snow, uphill both ways, no shoes... the usual.

 
Old 11-17-2011, 08:10 AM   #489
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

I wonder if Takeda leaving Ueshiba crying in the corner helped Ueshiba develop Aikido as I understand it. Maybe this is where Ueshiba saw the futility of being the strongest. That there would always be someone stronger or bigger or that has a gun. That maybe what matters in the end is striving for connection and reconciliation. To me this is what makes Aikido different than Aiki. No right or wrong, just different.

 
Old 11-17-2011, 08:28 AM   #490
Chris Knight
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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I wonder if Takeda leaving Ueshiba crying in the corner helped Ueshiba develop Aikido as I understand it. Maybe this is where Ueshiba saw the futility of being the strongest. That there would always be someone stronger or bigger or that has a gun. That maybe what matters in the end is striving for connection and reconciliation. To me this is what makes Aikido different than Aiki. No right or wrong, just different.
do you not think aikido should contain aiki Mary? as in aiki-do, ken-do, ju-do, taekwon-do?
 
Old 11-17-2011, 08:41 AM   #491
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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Chris Knight wrote: View Post
do you not think aikido should contain aiki Mary? as in aiki-do, ken-do, ju-do, taekwon-do?
not sure this is actually a do in the Japanese sense....

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
 
Old 11-17-2011, 08:50 AM   #492
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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not sure this is actually a do in the Japanese sense....
doh!
 
Old 11-17-2011, 08:53 AM   #493
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
I wonder if Takeda leaving Ueshiba crying in the corner helped Ueshiba develop Aikido as I understand it. Maybe this is where Ueshiba saw the futility of being the strongest. That there would always be someone stronger or bigger or that has a gun. That maybe what matters in the end is striving for connection and reconciliation. To me this is what makes Aikido different than Aiki. No right or wrong, just different.
I would agree on where he ended up, not on how he got there. He was not quite the peacenic everyone thought he was.
Decades after Takeda we find our Ueshiba...teaching military people, assassins, taking challenges, and distinctly involved in Budo. I admire some of the changes in thought and process that he went through. I suspect we differ on the level of cooperation needed to make aiki work, or what "connection" is about! I am a fan of what he had and did and not necessarily the over cooperative no touch throws he ended up with.

I don't like the fact people cut up aikido as if everyone in it is a Fauntleroy. It's a fallacious argument. Sure there are many hobbyist incapable of using aikido, but that is not different than many other arts. There are just as many inept people in the supposedly nastier art of DR. I think what people miss is that some very capable people come to aikido for reasons other than fighting, and others -who while they go out to do BJJ and MMA- stay in aikido for reasons all their own.
And most important.... aiki, works for all parties concerned
Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-17-2011 at 08:57 AM.
 
Old 11-17-2011, 08:53 AM   #494
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
I wonder if Takeda leaving Ueshiba crying in the corner helped Ueshiba develop Aikido as I understand it. Maybe this is where Ueshiba saw the futility of being the strongest. That there would always be someone stronger or bigger or that has a gun. That maybe what matters in the end is striving for connection and reconciliation. To me this is what makes Aikido different than Aiki. No right or wrong, just different.
I think what you're looking for came well after their meeting.
 
Old 11-17-2011, 10:31 AM   #495
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
That's an attempt to rewrite history.
* His aikido- is the aiki of Daito ryu and is the modified waza of Daito ryu.
* Takeda was the one who gave him his power...aiki. Which he referred to as his power for the rest of his life. He never mentioned aiki before Takeda's stay with him at Ayabe.
* His reputation for great physical strength had already been noted, yet it did not help him at all, with Takeda or with some tough military students. In fact, when he first met Takeda, Takeda left him crying- slumped in the corner.
* Interestingly, the only other arts he was known to have studied had already occurred.
* His enlightenment, by his own admission (in the early 20's) came to him shortly after Takeda's stay with him and it was all about aiki. As he said to his son aiki informed his spiritual pursuits.

Once you have these skills, you continue to grow your entire life. Which Ueshiba did do, right along with Sagawa and Kodo. A smart Johnnie will continue to experiment absorb and add things. With Ueshiba, Sagawa and Kodo they cannot be considered-they would in fact never had been discussed- if it were not for Takeda.
While remain a great fan of Ueshiba, without Takeda, Ueshiba would have been a nobody in the world of Budo and we would not be here discussing him.
Dan
1) This crying slumped in a corner statement I've never seen. Then I would add what's it's significance? Why do people say this? I've seen many big men crying 'in a corner' It's the type of statement I would question the user on.

2) Never heard him quote it as his power either. Have heard him say what his power is though on many occasions.

3) His Aikido is totally different to the aiki of Takeda. Thus so is his Aiki.

4) That aiki you talk about would assist any spiritual pursuits, ask a yogi. So does different forms of breathing and many other things.

5) I believe if it wasn't for Ueshiba then Takeda wouldn't even be considered. In fact I would say it was due to Ueshiba and the promotions of his son that saved the declining daito ryo itself.

Regards.G.
 
Old 11-17-2011, 10:42 AM   #496
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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1) This crying slumped in a corner statement I've never seen. Then I would add what's it's significance? Why do people say this? I've seen many big men crying 'in a corner' It's the type of statement I would question the user on.
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...83&postcount=4

On the origins of the usage of the "aiki" term, there are various narratives around, one of the most interesting is this one:

Quote:
In 1922, Takeda "visited" Ueshiba in Tanabe, a habit he was to repeat through out his life whenever he needed money. The reverend Deguchi did not care for Takeda and suggested to Ueshiba that he change the name of the art from Daito-ryu Jujitsu to Aiki. He also gave some money to Ueshiba to give to Takeda so that he would go away. According to Inoue, he became upset with his uncle when hesitant to add the term 'aiki' to the name. Eventually the name was changed to Daito-ryu Aikijujitsu, but the fact that Ueshiba had had doubts about changing the name, was one of the factors that contributed to the split between the two after the war. At the age of 21, Inoue returned to his birth place to engage in mushashugyo, (itinerant training in the martial arts). He was very successful and decided to go to Tokyo to teach. When he went to get his parents approval, they informed him that they could only support him if he ran the family business. Being his usual head strong self he told his family he was not able to run the business, and instead went off with his uncle to teach the martial arts.
http://www.shinwa-taido.org/history.shtml

 
Old 11-17-2011, 10:49 AM   #497
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Internal strength is not aiki
Actually people who are very skilled with it are rare. I have as yet, never met anyone in Aikido with much in the way of connection, power and Aiki, much less highly skilled aiki. Most teachers I have met and crossed hands with tell me they wish they had discovered this decades earlier.

Of course there are many other people with Internal strength (JMA and ICMA), but not all have accomplished aiki skills. Instead they use their IP for power displays. What Ark is doing in the kokyu dosa vids are power displays. I stand people back up on their feet from Kokyu dosa but I do not do it the way he does. While what he is doing is very good, it is still a collision of forces. His power is more developed, so he wins. However, it is not aiki.
With weapons it becomes even more pronounced. Power is a losing gambit with weapons, yet few know how to use aiki there either. I give people bokken and let them use two hands to make a horizontal cut against me, while I hold a bokken at the very end with one hand against their entire two hand "power" cut.
Power...with muscle is the dumbest of the available strengths
Internal power is more accomplished and difficult
Internal power with aiki is far better
Internal power with aiki and being able to fight with it...is the highest level of skill.
And comparatively, few possess those skills.

To quote you
"all those things coming unstuck when meeting it? Now that's quite a bold statement."
It is a statement of fact. The aiki Ueshiba's pursued is daunting, Graham. I'll let you know when I meet an Aikido-ka, anyone, who can stop it with Aikido.

For Mr. McGrew and others, the internet is the best place to discuss it. Why?
In person, it isn't going well for the detractors. You have no where to go and no argument left after that.
"All truth passes through three stages.
First, it is ridiculed.
Second, it is violently opposed.
Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
-Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)
This continues unopposed, in person...because it is self evident to all.
Dan
Dan. You mention someone doing power displays and that you do these things and that his isn't aiki. That sounds like you do 'power' displays also then. Aiki wise. Does he say yours is Aiki and if so what does he call his?

The demos you describe show what? Effectiveness of your aiki? (I assume so) However I don't see it as significant or unusual myself. Maybe 'out there' it is.

For instance, lifting someone up back to their feet from kokyu dosa. When you say power display equalling collision of forces are you implying you havn't met anyone who can do that without such?

Sword tricks. Are you saying you havn't met anyone who can cut through your sword held as you describe?

Regards.G.
 
Old 11-17-2011, 10:55 AM   #498
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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5) I believe if it wasn't for Ueshiba then Takeda wouldn't even be considered. In fact I would say it was due to Ueshiba and the promotions of his son that saved the declining daito ryo itself.

Regards.G.
You have something real to base this one? Because otherwise it's called "Just making crap up".
 
Old 11-17-2011, 11:17 AM   #499
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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...83&postcount=4

On the origins of the usage of the "aiki" term, there are various narratives around, one of the most interesting is this one:
Thanks Demetrio. As I thought, someone says in a book. One person, saying this for whatever reason, maybe to help sell his book, who knows. Secondly, he says Ueshiba was seen to be crying in a corner of the dojo.

Well I bet a few people have been 'hurt' in such a way that made their eyes water, what's new? So that's if it's true in the first place.

I don't see the words 'slumped' or 'crying like a baby' in that reference either. Sounds like people dress it up to make it more for their own ends? It's like tabloid gossip.

I have read that second one before as well. Inoue. Now there's a charachter. Similar views with Ueshiba on aiki and what it means. Also couldn't stand Takeda, along with deguchi, and I'm sure I also read how he (Inoue) didn't even like training with Takeda and also could handle him easily.

Regards.G.
 
Old 11-17-2011, 11:20 AM   #500
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
You have something real to base this one? Because otherwise it's called "Just making crap up".
Yes. Somewhere in Stanley Pranins work if I recall correctly. I'm not one for times , places, who said what. Once I get the concept I throw the data away.

Regards.G.
 

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