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Old 11-15-2011, 05:17 PM   #376
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

How did I misquote Jason? I quoted what he wrote in order to explain why I took your teachings to be what I took them to be. People ask me questions, I answer them, then people go hog wild. Stop asking me questions and I'll stop responding. I'd love to.

If you won't tell us what you do, and the english language isn't adequate to even begin to capture what you do, then I guess it can't be discussed in a forum.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Attacks? Attacks?? Katherine was never attacking you she was addressing you once again misquoting her like you do me and asking for a retraction. Has it dawned on you that everyone sees this behavior as an attack ON ME?
Look what you are doing again. Listen, I am reaching the end of my rope. Stop this and stop it now.
I do not know Jason, he has never trained with me and I am POSITIVE that he is as pissed as I am to hear he is speaking on my behalf. I am sick of this misdirection, misquoting, and restatements of things that have NOTHING TO DO WITH ME.
Knock it off.
Dan
 
Old 11-15-2011, 05:19 PM   #377
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Sure. That's one of many useful training tools. I never claimed that was all of aikido.

Katherine
Other people claimed Aikido, meaning Aiki, is only real when it's a certain thing Dan does. I am responding to dozens of people who all present themselves as advocating for Mr. Harden, then when I take them on their word I'm accused of something... I'm not sure what. Lots of things. Of not being a budo man.
 
Old 11-15-2011, 05:20 PM   #378
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Then we have fundamentally different conceptions of aikido, because to me without connection there is no aikido.
I never said or implied that body position, blending or leading are "tricks" - but I will say in my conception of aikido, they are tools that enable us to make connection. Even on a non-touch throw there is an inherent connection between uke and nage or else uke is merely tanking.
Janet, sometimes, like in randori, you just want the person to go by you. You don't always want to engage with them, do you?

In Aiki Nage, going down on both knees and bending over from a shomen strike, you sometimes connect with the center, but not always. Connecting with the center is a disruption. That can be helpful or not helpful. In Aiki nage Uke can be thrown forward by the force of his own strike and then tripped by your body, like a log in the woods not seen.

Last edited by Ken McGrew : 11-15-2011 at 05:22 PM.
 
Old 11-15-2011, 05:23 PM   #379
Chris Knight
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Many people have argued that Aikido does not work by blending, at least not real Aiki, and that those are tricks. People have written those things in this discussion. I can dig them up if I must. People have suggested that Mr. Harden provides the solution to the artificial and superficial nature of "overly" cooperative training. I was told that if my Aikido works because of my blending that I must also be doing more internal unbalancing than I realize in order for it to work. Katherine, I believe, described slow static practice to take balance from resistance that was just enough to let you succeed. Someone described very clearly the idea of brining Uke into you so you can move them and they can't prevent it. This is what I'm responding to.
before i'm jumped on and lynched by you Ken i have no association with any body on here and dont know anybody who posts personally

maybe, through my very very basic knowledge of aikido, that the internal blending is the most coherant thought process.. i mean, yes in a dojo setting , we have time to make adjustments to posture, positioning, tai subaki, tenkan movements etc...maybe o sensei taught these to start to instill the idea of the movement process, in reality, (please nobody start the what's reality reply), these movements are maybe condensed down into minimalistic movements within ourselves i.e. internal, as in reality, an attack is based on nano second reaction times, which even bruce lee couldn't predict and react to a punch from face to face action...
im sure i've read before that o sensei stated that his aikido/daito ryu took no form of the dojo training when used in a cross training/testing setting....

my 1 pennies worth
 
Old 11-15-2011, 05:26 PM   #380
kewms
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
I just did retract it. I said fine. I retract it. You never exactly said Aikido is fake. And I never put it in quotation marks when I said that you said it was fake. It's called paraphrasing. It is not the same thing as misquoting.
I couldn't have been misquoted, since you didn't quote me. I believe I said you had materially misrepresented my position. Repeatedly.

Just so we are clear, and since you refuse to look up exactly what I did say, I said that some actions (there are a number of examples) "often" don't work. I did not say they "never" work, I did not say they are "impossible." To leap from "often don't work" to "modern aikido is fake" is a gross misrepresentation of my position.

Getting my views wrong once, I could attribute to quick reading or inattention. To insist on your interpretation, repeatedly, even when challenged, suggests that you are the one more interested in rhetorical points than in actual discussion of the issues.

Katherine
 
Old 11-15-2011, 05:27 PM   #381
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Chris, Why do you accuse me of lynching you? To imply that I've been angrily attacking others? That is doc clearly not what I am doing. I don't understand. Seriously.

When Mr. Harden and company so internal connection they mean something very specific that they themselves say is not what most Aikido teachers do. Mr. Harden is on the record saying Aiki was lost after the war. He said O Sensei did not teach it well.

You are hitting exactly on my definition of Aiki. The ability to sense what cannot be known, exactly what is the attack that is coming at me and what must I do?
 
Old 11-15-2011, 05:30 PM   #382
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

How long are you going to harp on this, Katherine?

I think they are the exact same meanings. I see no meaningful distinctions between what you said and how I described what you said. You got your retraction. How long can you milk this.

Please, either engage in the heart of the discussion, or leave me alone.

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I couldn't have been misquoted, since you didn't quote me. I believe I said you had materially misrepresented my position. Repeatedly.

Just so we are clear, and since you refuse to look up exactly what I did say, I said that some actions (there are a number of examples) "often" don't work. I did not say they "never" work, I did not say they are "impossible." To leap from "often don't work" to "modern aikido is fake" is a gross misrepresentation of my position.

Getting my views wrong once, I could attribute to quick reading or inattention. To insist on your interpretation, repeatedly, even when challenged, suggests that you are the one more interested in rhetorical points than in actual discussion of the issues.

Katherine
 
Old 11-15-2011, 05:31 PM   #383
Chris Knight
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Other people claimed Aikido, meaning Aiki, is only real when it's a certain thing Dan does. I am responding to dozens of people who all present themselves as advocating for Mr. Harden, then when I take them on their word I'm accused of something... I'm not sure what. Lots of things. Of not being a budo man.
i dont think this is quite accurate.... i think the point is that Dan's skills are probably replicated all over China, but he is one of the few people in the west, who have delved into and dare i say started to master aiki, AND WHO ARE WILLING TO TEACH IT... this isn't a common practice as the Chinese are well known for their unwillingness to share the age old secrets
 
Old 11-15-2011, 05:33 PM   #384
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Mr. Harden says I am wrong to attribute anything anyone says in defense or explanation of his art to him. If he won't describe it himself, then it can never be know, apparently.

I think this was meant to be a private discussion among people who already accept Mr. Harden's claims or assumptions. There should be a way to have those sorts of private conversations. Ueshiba's Aiki seemed like a topic that applied to us all. That's how I took it.
 
Old 11-15-2011, 05:37 PM   #385
Chris Knight
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
You are hitting exactly on my definition of Aiki. The ability to sense what cannot be known, exactly what is the attack that is coming at me and what must I do?
no definiately not the same definition... you are advocating large physical movements within aikido, when in reality, which is what a martial art is generally based around, there is no time for this and movement has to be internalised... no body knows what is comiing, and my guess is that the internal movement is developed until it becomes as natural as possible within us...

as the chinese say, less movement is better than large movements, and no movement is the goal
 
Old 11-15-2011, 05:39 PM   #386
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
i dont think this is quite accurate.... i think the point is that Dan's skills are probably replicated all over China, but he is one of the few people in the west, who have delved into and dare i say started to master aiki, AND WHO ARE WILLING TO TEACH IT... this isn't a common practice as the Chinese are well known for their unwillingness to share the age old secrets
What we have here is circular reasoning. No offense is intended in saying so. It just is. If you don't want to convince me or others and if you don't think I'm worth talking to, please just don't address me in your posts or otherwise mention me.

I don't have a problem with what Dan is doing. I have a problem with claiming it is the real Aiki in Aikido that the direct students of O Sensei never got, Etc. and so on. I have a problem with the claim that O Sensei would have agreed. I've given the reasons why, which include the things he said to his direct students which have been written down and otherwise conveyed. I've been saying this from the very beginning.

Mr. Harden is a master at whatever it is he is doing. I don't doubt it.
 
Old 11-15-2011, 05:42 PM   #387
Chris Knight
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
I think this was meant to be a private discussion among people who already accept Mr. Harden's claims or assumptions. There should be a way to have those sorts of private conversations. Ueshiba's Aiki seemed like a topic that applied to us all. That's how I took it.
how is that possible when i've never met the man, dont know his training concepts and can't easily get to train with him, although i would like to

just because some people have looked in more depth into the chinese philosophy of martial arts and internal strengh per se, is totally irrelevant of his teachings... if you look hard enough, you will find concepts of all martial arts mingled together, especially aikido within tai chi and my belief is that o sensei expanded his knowledge from this base form, but that's just me probably being crazy - i haven't studied it long enough but looking at the forms, there is a high correlation
 
Old 11-15-2011, 05:43 PM   #388
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
no definiately not the same definition... you are advocating large physical movements within aikido, when in reality, which is what a martial art is generally based around, there is no time for this and movement has to be internalised... no body knows what is comiing, and my guess is that the internal movement is developed until it becomes as natural as possible within us...

as the chinese say, less movement is better than large movements, and no movement is the goal
Chris, this gets to the heart of the disagreement. I understand your perspective. I disagree for various reasons that I have and could lay out again. I am not a real budo man so there is no reason to care what I think.

I do not advocate only for large movements. That is a misunderstanding of what I am saying. It can be large or small. There are lots of ways to cook an egg. They are all parts of Aikido that fit some situations better than others. Aiki is more than physical. It is many things. I could explain exactly what I mean but by now I see mosts posts as an attempt to draw me back into fire. Why address me at all?
 
Old 11-15-2011, 05:44 PM   #389
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
how is that possible when i've never met the man, dont know his training concepts and can't easily get to train with him, although i would like to

just because some people have looked in more depth into the chinese philosophy of martial arts and internal strengh per se, is totally irrelevant of his teachings... if you look hard enough, you will find concepts of all martial arts mingled together, especially aikido within tai chi and my belief is that o sensei expanded his knowledge from this base form, but that's just me probably being crazy - i haven't studied it long enough but looking at the forms, there is a high correlation
This was not directed at you. I did not write it in response to you. I did not use the quote feature. It was a statement meant to stand on it's own. Really? Please don't address me if you don't want me to respond.
 
Old 11-15-2011, 05:45 PM   #390
DH
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
How did I misquote Jason? I quoted what he wrote in order to explain why I took your teachings to be what I took them to be. People ask me questions, I answer them, then people go hog wild. Stop asking me questions and I'll stop responding. I'd love to.
I think you have trouble reasoning.
I didn't say you misquoted.
Let's do a test and see if you can follow along.
This is what you said
Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote:
" Here is someone answering my questions to Mr. Harden, on his behalf." and to which I have been speaking.:
Now...stop. Go back. Read it again.
You said
Here is someone answering my questions to Mr. Harden, on his behalf,
Do you comprehend that?
Do you see it is not a misquote?
Should I provide a definition?
I don't care about the content of the quote. I do not know Jason, he has never trained with me. He cannot speak on my behalf.
Now wait. Follow along. I also said;
"I am sick of this misdirection, misquoting, and restatements of things that have NOTHING TO DO WITH ME."
DO YOU UNDERSTAND?

Good
Now....
Stop it. It is a disservice to yourself and to others.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-15-2011 at 05:58 PM.
 
Old 11-15-2011, 05:52 PM   #391
Chris Knight
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Why address me at all?
because its a forum and i would like to discuss my ideas with you, as they dont adhere exactly to what your ideas are
 
Old 11-15-2011, 05:54 PM   #392
Chris Knight
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
This was not directed at you. I did not write it in response to you. I did not use the quote feature. It was a statement meant to stand on it's own. Really? Please don't address me if you don't want me to respond.
sorry my mistake
 
Old 11-15-2011, 05:56 PM   #393
Chris Knight
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Chris, this gets to the heart of the disagreement.
it gets to the heart of the slight disagreement between me and you, as i haven't got a clue whether my concept of internal strength and chinese philosophy is the same as everybody elses posting, probably not as im a newbie, just throwing thoughts around though
 
Old 11-15-2011, 06:00 PM   #394
Janet Rosen
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Janet, sometimes, like in randori, you just want the person to go by you. You don't always want to engage with them, do you?

In Aiki Nage, going down on both knees and bending over from a shomen strike, you sometimes connect with the center, but not always. Connecting with the center is a disruption. That can be helpful or not helpful. In Aiki nage Uke can be thrown forward by the force of his own strike and then tripped by your body, like a log in the woods not seen.
Actually, my goal is to always engage/connect. I understand in randori sometimes it is not possible to do more than establish a fleeting energy connection in order to keep the randori flow going. I would consider a complete evasion to be a weakness in my technique. This should not be construed as a statement of my abilities but of my goals, what I think aikido can and should be.

If uke is thrown off balance by the force of his own strike, then I think it was an overcommitted attack.

Again, we can agree to disagree and probably will. In my conception, connection and kuzushi are the primary issues - things like timing and position and blending are some of the tools to accomplish them - and internal training is something I am trying to learn in the body in order to have a more stable structure and to be more effective at connection and kuzushi - those are my goals right now and may not be a reflection of anybody else's teachings or goals.

Janet Rosen
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Old 11-15-2011, 06:11 PM   #395
DH
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
If you won't tell us what you do, and the english language isn't adequate to even begin to capture what you do, then I guess it can't be discussed in a forum.
I have talked about it and I demonstrate it and I teach it. So there is a combinaton of forum and personal teaching. Who are you that you deserve me to lay everything out for you? Why?
Moreover, with me, people start to actually improve in their aiki. I would love to line up or write the names of the 4th, 5th, and 6th dans and Shihan and what they say about lack of detailed teaching of aiki in aikido...all under Masterclass Japanese instructors.
Care to discuss those Japanese teachers....in detail?
How about how much they charge for a seminar?
I never will, but it serves the point.

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
Internal connection is great. Internal unbalancing is great. It is not the only way that Aikido works. You often connect to Uke. But you don't always connect. You do what fits the situation. Body positioning, blending, leading, these are not tricks, they are part of Aiki.
No one is contesting positioning, blending, leading as part of aiki... BUT YOU.
We are discussing what you do to produce it. The essence of aikido is aiki. Aiki is first developed as a holding or sustaining of aiki in you. Then and only then can you make aiki between people.
"Aiki in me, before aiki between thee and me."
This is paramount to creating the aiki in aikido. It is the source of heaven/ earth/ man... six directions... in yo ho...and dual spiral energy (which Ueshiba states the mystery of aiki is revealed through). This is not the universal spirals that Saotome talks about.
In yo ho (yin yang method) is a system in the body.

FYI, stop calling it, yo ho. Fred might hurt a rib laughing.
In light of the fact that you desire to contest me over what Ueshiba said, and meant -learn the terms that he used, the methods he ascribed to and what they really mean. It will give your arguments more weight. At least on the surface.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-15-2011 at 06:20 PM.
 
Old 11-15-2011, 06:16 PM   #396
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

By stop it I think you mean cower.

It was my mistake to take people describing your art as being able to do so to your satisfaction, especially when you thanked some of them for doing so.

On his behalf is a figure of speach. It does not mean In an official capacity.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I think you have trouble reasoning.
I didn't say you misquoted.
Let's do a test and see if you can follow along.
This is what you said

Now...stop. Go back. Read it again.
You said
Here is someone answering my questions to Mr. Harden, on his behalf,
Do you comprehend that?
Do you see it is not a misquote?
Should I provide a definition?
I don't care about the content of the quote. I do not know Jason, he has never trained with me. He cannot speak on my behalf.
Now wait. Follow along. I also said;
"I am sick of this misdirection, misquoting, and restatements of things that have NOTHING TO DO WITH ME."
DO YOU UNDERSTAND?

Good
Now....
Stop it. It is a disservice to yourself and to others.
Dan
 
Old 11-15-2011, 06:28 PM   #397
Ken McGrew
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Listen, you said stop it then immediately Addresed me again. Please calm down.

People have denied the role of blending in Aiki. I even bumped one of he posts.

I don't accept your definition of Aiki.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I have talked about it and I demonstrate it and I teach it. So there is a combinaton of forum and personal teaching. Who are you that you deserve me to lay everything out for you? Why?
Moreover, with me, people start to actually improve in their aiki. I would love to line up or write the names of the 4th, 5th, and 6th dans and Shihan and what they say about lack of detailed teaching of aiki in aikido...all under Masterclass Japanese instructors.
Care to discuss those Japanese teachers....in detail?
How about how much they charge for a seminar?
I never will, but it serves the point.

No one is contesting positioning, blending, leading as part of aiki... BUT YOU.
We are discussing what you do to produce it. The essence of aikido is aiki. Aiki is first developed as a holding or sustaining of aiki in you. Then and only then can you make aiki between people.
"Aiki in me, before aiki between thee and me."
This is paramount to creating the aiki in aikido. It is the source of heaven/ earth/ man... six directions... in yo ho...and dual spiral energy (which Ueshiba states the mystery of aiki is revealed through). This is not the universal spirals that Saotome talks about.
In yo ho (yin yang method) is a system in the body.

FYI, stop calling it, yo ho. Fred might hurt a rib laughing.
In light of the fact that you desire to contest me over what Ueshiba said, and meant -learn the terms that he used, the methods he ascribed to and what they really mean. It will give your arguments more weight. At least on the surface.
Dan

Last edited by akiy : 11-15-2011 at 07:02 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
 
Old 11-15-2011, 06:28 PM   #398
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
By stop it I think you mean cower.
Cower?
This is an implication on your part, presuming some negative posturing on my part.
Let me be clear. I stand in rooms and allow no one to call me a teacher. I deal with people straight in the eye and don't look down on anyone.
You're carrying around your own baggage. I don't need that tripe.
Quote:
It was my mistake to take people describing your art as being able to do so to your satisfaction, especially when you thanked some of them for doing so.

On his behalf is a figure of speach. It does not mean In an official capacity.
It was one of many mistakes on your part. How can someone who doesn't know me and never met me describe my art?
Ask people at the office if they think ANYONE speaking on their behalf is a figure of speech!
I think I'm done here.
See ya
Dan
 
Old 11-15-2011, 06:56 PM   #399
gregstec
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Ken,

The bottom line is that your definition of aiki is different than ours and when you read what we are saying, you view it as being said from the perspective of your definition - no one can communicate that way since other terms we use will not have the same relationship and meaning in our model that it would have in your model - so, no more need for further discussion - this is, of course, a logical observation and conclusion.

As far as insults are concerned, you came in here with the attitude, you pushed and we pushed back - if you are done with that, so are we; and I apologize for my part.

Below is from a previous post that is a good summary of where we think aiki is - you have absolutely every right to disagree with that and say what ever you want about it - however, until you can duplicate anything in there, we are not interested in hearing your opinions anymore - please keep in mind that those you have challenged here have already been through your understanding of what aiki is and have found it lacking for their purposes - however, if it fits your purposes, have fun.

Quote:
Here are a few tidbits (gems) that may have relevance to parts of this thread.

1. Aiki starts at home - you develop aiki within you via the balancing of yin-yang/in-yo - Ueshiba said it himself: (paraphrase) "you will never learn aiki unless you know in yo ho" (don't ask for a reference to where he said it, look for it yourself - it has been posted recently)

2. You don't blend with Uke's energy, you allow uke's energy to blend with you; then YOU control the joining of the two as one - this is as much ki blending as a physical blending - actually, more ki

3. Once you have created aiki within you, everything that touches you becomes part of you and is controlled by you; this includes sword and jo, and whatever.

Oh, one other thing, this is ALL so soft and natural, you should not even break a sweat

Greg

Last edited by gregstec : 11-15-2011 at 07:02 PM.
 
Old 11-15-2011, 09:56 PM   #400
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Re: Ueshiba's Aiki

Quote:
Ken McGrew wrote: View Post
...I could point to people who stated that all of O Sensei's Aikido was the Aiki connection and that everything else, blending, leading, body positioning, were tricks and not Aiki.
You seem to be very wound up about the "tricks" comment. If so, I probably started it. I believe that in the same post I told you outright that not only was I not speaking for Dan or anyone else, but that I knew for sure that some IS people disagreed with me on some of what I was saying.

We could, possibly, have an interesting conversation about what it means to call something a trick in this context. Or we could continue the pissing contest. Which seems more likely, and I'm on the road with no access to my liquor cabinet so my tolerance for such is limited.
 

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