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Old 10-09-2011, 09:33 AM   #51
DH
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Fair enough, but totally irrelevant to this thread.
Interesting view. It could equally be said to be true about you.
Really?
I feel like you have mixed up those same two topics when it is to your benefit and tried to separate them when it worked for you as well.

And really, Dan, don't you take any responsibility for the tone of the "IP/IT/IS" discussions here on AikiWeb?

I mean, you have been probably the most vociferous poster. And you were the one who started talking about 350 hp washing machine agitators, putting people in hospitals, and "vetting."

I have absolutely nothing against you or any other person pursuing "IP/IT/IS," but here's the thing. . .

Neither Demetrio nor myself started a thread called "internal strength in sparring" then proceeded to post no videos featuring sparring. Personally, I don't care about Olympians or world class MMA guys. I just want to see some video of what you and your people are doing, but none are forthcoming.

I would've been satisfied with some legit push hands videos, which seem to be fairly plentiful on YouTube . . .
Feel better?
I'm not going to entertain an argument with you over every point. I will say that as long as I have been discussing it, I have steadfastly separated issues of IP/aiki and fighting. They need not be joined, they can be discussed separately, and should be discussed separately. Not everyone wants to go down that road and should not be required to.

Fighting is a different topic. I only mention IP/aiki in regards to fighting because people -some very famous people from back on Ebudo and elsewhere (one of whom is now TEACHING internal power) have stated it relied on fine motor skills and will fail under stress. I have pointed for decades that -that idea is simply false and demonstrates the lack of understanding of those teachers. And apparenty they now agree with me, one of them even admitted that at the time they didn't get it...go figure. I brought up my success with it in that venue to prove a point. I was the only one I knoew of at the time who was doing so. Hence, my using my own experiences for proof or point. If you want to use it to cast me in a negative light like some here do routinely..go right ahead. Those with even a cursury familiarity of me presonally would disagree with your assertions of my motives.

Anyway...internal strength and fighting. As was demonstrated in the current Solo training thread-you confuse the two and go back and forth to make a point. I discussed: Aikido students learning IP /aiki in aikido and compared those in aikido not wanting to learn IP/aii then having to face Aikido-ka who were...
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
There is no way to be polite about it. If you train Ueshiba's aiki correctly, no one from Aikido™ will be able to deal with you. So for those students opting out...it's only a matter of time before they are helpless to stop those training aiki. Aikido™ will always fail against the way of aiki (O sensei's aiki...do). It cannot be avoided.
Your reply?
Quote:
Unless the Aikido™ guy is a Fighter™, right?
-Michael
I don't mind having discussions with you, but you're typically all over the map and cannot stay on point. I am aware of your training history. The fact that you cannot separate topics and and blend it all into your home grown garage-do is fine by me. Call mine, Barn-do I don't care. I let what I do stand on its own merits. But your stated understanding of IP/aiki;
With baseball players and golfers and anyone who does things well in sports having internal power that your camp has made as well as confusing traditional weapons with the dog brothers (excellent but different) work, of IP being inately trained into good fighters or sports, as well as other related comments you make clearly demonstrates that we have profound differences of opinion on what IP/aiki is.
Therefore, we have to intellectually acknowledge that one of us has to be clearly wrong in their understanding of what internal power and Aiki is...
I will state openely that I can demonstrate things that you cannot replicate and no one I know of or have heard of has ever said your camp has unusual power...but rather that you are good jujutsu men with good fighting principles. Yeah you. Thats quite and accomplishment, but one, has nothing to do with the other.

As for "tone of discussions"
I'll let your post to me stand on it's own merits. Take this for example:
Quote:
I have absolutely nothing against you or any other person pursuing "IP/IT/IS,"
Quote:
But I'm really glad you're here, because, you know, that Saito was a real dummy and despite spending 25 years with Morihei Ueshiba and being his closest student and attendant to his family and guardian of his shrine, he just never understood anything the old man said. Luckily we have you, who as far as I know, speaks neither Japanese nor Chinese to interpret all of Morihei's writings.
It is intellectually dishonest to state that you have nothing against me...then write this rubbish.
1. It does not accurately express a single comment I have made
2. It falsely re-interprets what I have said in a bad light-putting words in my mouth that I never said or even agree with.
It is...intellectually dishonest as an argument.

So, there is no point in trying to communicate to you, its better to talk past you to other readers.
1. I have never stated Saito was a dummy
2. He and others have openly stated that they did in fact not understand what Ueshiba was talking about. Does it make them dummies because they did not understand him? I don't think so. So why would Michael state they were?
3. We now have a few people who are doing what Ueshiba did; they are studying the chinese classics, and IP/aiki and it is they..who are the professional translators who are re-reading and correctly translating his own words. One of whom asked one of the biographers- why he skipped over whole paragraphs and deleted them from translations and why he incorrectly translated others.
His answer
I didn't know what he was talking about.
What he was in fact talking about Michael...would be understood and familiar to those who had studied the ICMA martial arts and some who studied Daito ryu and Koryu.
Your anger and attempt to attack me is an empty personal attack that I have grown used to. All it does is continue to reveal the profound ignorance displayed by his early biographers and students that continues to this day. Wasn't it Ueshiba himself who agreed and also stated that they didn't understand him?

At least many of them had the where with all to admit they didn't know. That sir...is intellectual honesty, without a personality driven agenda as is my discourse. We can agree to disagree and yet remain on point. Frustration, and personal invective, expressed through veiled sarcasm isn't a good tactic.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-09-2011 at 09:47 AM.
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Old 10-09-2011, 11:52 AM   #52
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I'm not talking about Olympic level players either and never have. I am talking about competitors with established fight records as well as grapplers of all types who...with all due respect...are on a different level then the normal martial artists I meet.
Well, thats the problem with "normal" martial artists around you... they are in a very different level

Quote:
It is those men- who can fight and who have felt it and sparred with us who have noted IP/aiki is different and feels different than the ordinary way someone delivers power and moves and offers distinct advantages. And some of those sparing sessions have been done in open rooms.
No problem with that, IP feels different and gives substantial advantage to people who have it over the ones who lack it.

Quote:
Interestingly, you attempted yet another tactic or ploy to up the anti to world class figthers to vet or destroy the validity of a method while not using the same standard to completely discredit aikido.
Dan, with all due respect, there is no need to rely on world class sport figthers to discredit aikido. Recreational ones suffice.

Quote:
The reason I stopped talking to many of you is that you continue to mix up two very different topics into one in order to try every perceivable angle to just be contrary, against all logic. It has lost credibility as a debating point. It is functionally dishonest. I leave it up to you to decide why that is.
As dishonest as putting some guys doing poor sanda-lite as shining examples of IP based awesomeness and atractiveness. Statements about these people like "(they) have millions of ways to seriously damage or kill someone on street in seconds" are nothing but hints about the knowledge about real fighting around here.

Quote:
On it's own, IP can be tested and felt, but it is a totally different discussion of whether or not I or someone else can fight.
Thats why I'm not holding my breath waiting for IP proponents performing at the top levels of combat sports.

Quote:
Let's cut to the chase. There is no interest in truth or impartial experience and reporting by hundreds of qualified people. The honest truth is that there is group of people that think IP is B.S., something that you already know or is marginally useful... plain and simple. I don't think a thousand Martial artists all stating the same thing would ever convince you of anything...why...because you don't want it to be true, for prejudicial reasons past logical examination.
Dan
Quite on the contrary, Dan. I "want" to be true (and from what I've seen IP is true) but this "IP is the thing" because you or other IP proponents can clean the mats in the country of the blind (Aikido™ practitioners or MMA amateurs) means nothing in the combat sports field.

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Old 10-09-2011, 02:20 PM   #53
DH
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
1.Well, thats the problem with "normal" martial artists around you... they are in a very different level.
2. As dishonest as putting some guys doing poor sanda-lite as shining examples of IP based awesomeness and atractiveness.
Dan, with all due respect, there is no need to rely on world class sport figthers to discredit aikido. Recreational ones suffice.
but this "IP is the thing" because you or other IP proponents can clean the mats in the country of the blind (Aikido™ practitioners or MMA amateurs) means nothing in the combat sports field.
I know Aikido-ka who were collegiate wrestlers who are blue, brown and black belt BJJers. I also have sparred with MMA rnaked fighters.

Statements about these people like "(they) have millions of ways to seriously damage or kill someone on street in seconds" are nothing but hints about the knowledge about real fighting around here.

Thats why I'm not holding my breath waiting for IP proponents performing at the top levels of combat sports.

Quite on the contrary, Dan. I "want" to be true (and from what I've seen IP is true)
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Old 10-09-2011, 02:35 PM   #54
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I know Aikido-ka who were collegiate wrestlers who are blue, brown and black belt BJJers. I also have sparred with MMA rnaked fighters.
I don't doubt you know and sparred with them.

Would you mind to give names so I can ask them about their opinion about the subject of IP in combat sports?

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Old 10-09-2011, 02:38 PM   #55
DH
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

Post Number 53 was an error

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
1.Well, thats the problem with "normal" martial artists around you... they are in a very different level.
1. You have no idea who I know, where I come from and what I am capable of.
Quote:
2. Dan, with all due respect, there is no need to rely on world class sport fighters to discredit aikido. Recreational ones suffice.
2. I didn't bring up world class olympians...you did. Please follow along or stop talking to me.
Quote:
3. ...As dishonest as putting some guys doing poor sanda-lite as shining examples of IP based awesomeness and atractiveness. Statements about these people like "(they) have millions of ways to seriously damage or kill someone on street in seconds
3. This does not refer to me and I don't talk about instant killing and other nonsense in your reply. I have to put up with this from Mike and Michael and now you... stating things that I never said in an attempt to go after me personally. I am not going to bite to this intellectual dishonest other than to point out to anyone reading the nature and quality of those entering in stating ...I am the one pulling this B.S.

If you have nothing better to do than to misquote and lie about things I say, then don't talk to me.

Quote:
4.this "IP is the thing" because you or other IP proponents can clean the mats in the country of the blind (Aikido™ practitioners or MMA amateurs) means nothing in the combat sports field.
4. I know Aikido-ka who were collegiate wrestlers who are blue, brown and black belt BJJers. Some are members here. You do a disservice to the community to ignore that or you do know and once again are being dishonest to make a point.
Secondly I have sparred with men with established fight records in open rooms with dozens of people watching who have nothing to do with Aikido. I have spoken of this many times.
a. Acknowledge it, or
b. Publicly call me a liar right here, right now.
Ignoring it and then telling me I only can deal with aikido-ka (whom you apparently despise) is once again intellectually dishonest.

As I said previously you have no real interest in any discussion with me, you are creating false statements I never made and trying to score points on some imaginary score card with a person I certainly don't recognize as having anything to do with my positions or opinions. Your creating a Phantom to use as a foil and talking to yourself.
This isn't a discussion and never was. I have better things to do than to talk with people who represent themselves this way. I've no interest in reading your further insults and inflamatory statements I have nothing to do with.
See ya
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-09-2011 at 02:53 PM.
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Old 10-09-2011, 04:12 PM   #56
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Post Number 53 was an error

1. You have no idea who I know, where I come from and what I am capable of.
So what?

Quote:
2. I didn't bring up world class olympians...you did. Please follow along or stop talking to me.
You asked:

Why is it that the posters here over the years; have never and I mean...NEVER.... acknowledge the reports of experienced grapplers and MMA people who have stated that this feels different? When presented, they are ignored. Why?

IMO, and again, because these experienced grapplers and MMA players are not the top people at that game. When this kind of statements are done by top players, people react differently.

Quote:
3. This does not refer to me and I don't talk about instant killing and other nonsense in your reply. I have to put up with this from Mike and Michael and now you... stating things that I never said in an attempt to go after me personally. I am not going to bite to this intellectual dishonest other than to point out to anyone reading the nature and quality of those entering in stating ...I am the one pulling this B.S.
No, but you are not the one calling BS on those delusional statements made by the IP proponents.

If you have nothing better to do than to misquote and lie about things I say, then don't talk to me.

Quote:
4. I know Aikido-ka who were collegiate wrestlers who are blue, brown and black belt BJJers. Some are members here. You do a disservice to the community to ignore that or you do know and once again are being dishonest to make a point.
BJJ bluebelts are not people who I consider accomplished grapplers.

Quote:
Secondly I have sparred with men with established fight records in open rooms with dozens of people watching who have nothing to do with Aikido. I have spoken of this many times.
a. Acknowledge it, or
b. Publicly call me a liar right here, right now.
Read my previous and unedited post.

Quote:
Ignoring it and then telling me I only can deal with aikido-ka (whom you apparently despise) is once again intellectually dishonest.
What I'm saying is dealing with Aikido™ practitioners or MMA amateurs is not an homeric feat. You can deal with pros and world class sport players too, glad to hear that.

Quote:
As I said previously you have no real interest in any discussion with me, you are creating false statements I never made and trying to score points on some imaginary score card with a person I certainly don't recognize as having anything to do with my positions or opinions. Your creating a Phantom to use as a foil and talking to yourself.
This isn't a discussion and never was. I have better things to do than to talk with people who represent themselves this way. I've no interest in reading your further insults and inflamatory statements I have nothing to do with.
See ya
Dan
As you like.

But, as I said before, I'm not holding my breath waiting for the IS people playing at the top levels of combat sports.

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Old 10-09-2011, 05:17 PM   #57
DH
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

Well I guess I should thank you for proving my point.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
So what?
You brought it up by making statements of the type of people I know, then take issue with me stating that you do not know the people I am with. You are contrary for sake of finding anything to be contrary about.

You asked:

Quote:
but you are not the one calling BS on those delusional statements made by the IP proponents.
Wrong again. Not only have I corrected some of the nonsense surrounding IP, I have taken flack for that as well as flack for stating that certain things would not work with grapplers, and that the type of movement displayed by a well known guy would not work with traditonal weapons. I also took flack for stating a very popular internal guy's movements would get his ass handed to him by grapplers.
So basically I took flack from them for a view you apparently agree with and here...now taking flack from you for ..well...basically no logical reason you can think of at all. In any event...flack...both ways.
Quote:
BJJ bluebelts are not people who I consider accomplished grapplers.
Here again is a great example of your non communication style. You sir....you...made the point that aikido people are push overs. I made the point that I know several who were and are Greco roman wrestlers, Blue, brown and black belt BJJers and also some ranked MMA ers. your response? Totally obtuse. A complete skating of real communication. Pot shots...


Quote:
What I'm saying is dealing with Aikido™ practitioners or MMA amateurs is not an homeric feat. You can deal with pros and world class sport players too, glad to hear that.
No sir.. you haven't made a cogent argument you were willing to then support or at least make worthy of responding to. Your opener was that if IP was not vetted by olympic world class competition than it is essentially worthless. Then you negated any gradations of skill or force levels. Not recognizing of course that all levels lead to higher levels and many things contained in one are foundational to others. This is not a coherent position with any merit. I have no idea how to communicate with you.
According to you only world class olympic grapplers are good...and anyone rising to or is a former one.. is not. And all other martial endevours are worthless.
I only want to mention that I want to have the first crack at one with a knife or sword or sticks and let's see what happens.
The basis of the argument is ridiculous. I feel like I am arguing with my sons friends.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-09-2011 at 05:32 PM.
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Old 10-09-2011, 05:31 PM   #58
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I have no idea how to communicate with you.

Dan
Well, as the same happens to me: I don't have idea about how to communicate with you.

I see you've reprhased your post. Anyway...

Quote:
Your opener was that if IP was not vetted by olympic world class competition than it is essentially worthless.
False.

Quote:
Then you negated any gradations of skill or force levels.Not recognizing of course that all levels lead to higher levels and many things contained in one are foundational to others.
False.

Quote:
Lest just say that only world class olympic grapplers are good...and anyone rising to or is a former one..
I don't understand this sentence.

Quote:
And all other martial endevours are worthless.
I've never said that.

Quote:
I only want to mention that I want to have the first crack at one with a knife or sword or sticks and let's see what happens.
Been there, in the street. Is not funny, but I don't regret it.

As this kind of exchanges does not lead anywhere except for making things personal, this silly sportsman begs you pardon for the disturbances.

Won't happen again. You have your way, I have mine.

Regards.

Demetrio

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 10-09-2011 at 05:42 PM.

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Old 10-09-2011, 09:45 PM   #59
DH
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
As this kind of exchanges does not lead anywhere except for making things personal, this silly sportsman begs you pardon for the disturbances. Won't happen again.
I see we do not see the arts in the same way and I have no wish to make enemies either. But I know disengenouos discourse when I see it. So we can let it rest.
Quote:
You have your way, I have mine.
Regards.
Demetrio
My way...is in my tag line. O sensei said what thousands of Martial artists had said before him. You must know Yin/ yang..in his pedegogy; aiki in/yo ho.
Yin/ yang is the foundation of everything he talked about and it is whole world past Tohei. For martial artists today it is a tag line and Wingding symbal.

Those who do not know it...only know sports and athletics. They are the destroyers of the Asian arts, not the preservers.
Dan
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Old 10-09-2011, 09:59 PM   #60
bob_stra
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

I can't help but feel that a lot of the acrimony could be mitigated by renaming internal strength to internal skill (purists would argue against that for a number of reasons).

Of course, that assumes genuine good will and a willingness to engage in analysis (per my original & follow up posts). I'm not sure that can be had here - cést la vie.

I do find it it kinda endearing that I'm being lectured to on the identification and merits of different types of sparring by... Aikidoka.

Sparring? For martial arts? Gosh, I sure wish I had run into you fellas before!

Profundity like that could have really helped in prepping for the 2006 Australian Judo Nationals, the Pan Pacs, Indian Rim games, training at the Kokushikan or getting my butt kick by the Tokyo U team.

Oh right: my bad. That couldn't have happened. People looking into IS are all clueless, weeny noobs, in desperate need of guidance from battle hardened aikidoka.

Last edited by bob_stra : 10-09-2011 at 10:02 PM.
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Old 10-09-2011, 11:34 PM   #61
DH
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
I can't help but feel that a lot of the acrimony could be mitigated by renaming internal strength to internal skill (purists would argue against that for a number of reasons).
Of course, that assumes genuine good will and a willingness to engage in analysis (per my original & follow up posts). I'm not sure that can be had here - cést la vie.
I do find it it kinda endearing that I'm being lectured to on the identification and merits of different types of sparring by... Aikidoka.
Sparring? For martial arts? Gosh, I sure wish I had run into you fellas before!
Profundity like that could have really helped in prepping for the 2006 Australian Judo Nationals, the Pan Pacs, Indian Rim games, training at the Kokushikan or getting my butt kick by the Tokyo U team.

Oh right: my bad. That couldn't have happened. People looking into IS are all clueless, weeny noobs, in desperate need of guidance from battle hardened aikidoka.
Hey Bob, nice dig.
I am neither an Aikido-ka, or lecturing you, or anyone else. Frankly, I only care and am here, to share with the ones who are opening their eyes and minds to the one true great thing within the martial arts.
Fighting- not grappling sports- is a different but equally interesting subject with just as few people conversant in it. I am certain you would find my abilities in that regard, quite acceptable for a conversation.
As you can see I do not share Demetrio's views about much of anything; traditional arts, sports or internal strength.
Good day
Dan
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Old 10-09-2011, 11:55 PM   #62
bob_stra
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hey Bob, nice dig.
I am neither an Aikido-ka, or lecturing you, or anyone else.
I wasn't meaning you specifically, Dan. However, if you look further up the thread, you can see some commentary made by other posters in that vein.

Instead of having a productive thread on how-what-why of IS (esp within a standing grappling context - AiKiDo's bailiwick), things seem to devolve into these side issues.

Oh well.

Last edited by bob_stra : 10-10-2011 at 12:00 AM.
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Old 10-10-2011, 09:14 AM   #63
Chris Li
 
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
I can't help but feel that a lot of the acrimony could be mitigated by renaming internal strength to internal skill (purists would argue against that for a number of reasons).
My wife started calling it "internal science" - or just "science" (actually, it was more like "that weird internal science stuff"). Since I always listen to my wife that's what I call it too.

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-10-2011, 10:01 AM   #64
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Wingding symbal.
Wingding Cymbal, maybe?



Or symbol of winding . . . like the Taiji symbol (winding, yin and yang always changing and seeking balance within wuji)
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Old 10-10-2011, 10:35 PM   #65
DH
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

From the BJJ thread

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
Are you saying that intent and "when one thing moves, everything moves" imply each other, or that they are two separate but mutually supportive skills? I guess I am confused what you mean by "change someones quality of movement in a way that cannot be seen", but shouldn't the whole body movement part be noticeable to the observer? Do you feel what Rickson Gracie is doing there is useful for building one, the other, both, neither, or it depends?
They are not supposed to be two different things, but even for those going down this road they often are. You can grab me somewhere and I can "shut off" and when I move I will feel normal-meaning you will feel nothing until I make large external movements. Then, I can "turn on" and you will instantly feel a quality of kuzushi even before I start to move.
Now people respond differently to that, and they run the gamut of:
Trained ukes jumping and throwing themselves
To trained ukes going with the throw,
To push hands and they try to change your change and catch the edge,
To grapplers who will feel it and try to change positions and keep moving,
To MMAers keep trying to figure out why they are late and why they feel open.
It's an advantage; sometimes just an edge, other times overwhelming so.
I stopped gauging the responses in different venues and just pay attention to me and what I am doing and how I am organized, some things require thought, others things are auto pilot.
Whether or not Rickson is focusing on it...I will only say I know some internal guys who are in BJJ and have trained with many of the best. They attended some of Rickson seminars and were surprised to hear some of his training ideas and his "feel." Beyond that I have no comment until I feel him. It isn't about fighting skill it's some different that is measurable and known.
Dan
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