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Old 10-01-2011, 09:49 AM   #1
bob_stra
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Internal Strength in sparring

These were recently reposted to youtube. Thought it might be interesting to see / discuss how some higher level CMA guys move and use internal strength. The clip here is of Chen Ziqiang during a televised San Shou match, so the full gamut of skills are likely not on display. In other words, think of it more as a limited engagement sparring session.

Nevertheless, I think it gives a good impression of the "strength" in internal strength and shows how some of the better exponents move.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DEGLU5WEvM

another CZQ clip that's fun to watch (if only to see how much poor uke gets beat up)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAicu-IPjMw

Last edited by bob_stra : 10-01-2011 at 09:52 AM.
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Old 10-01-2011, 10:36 AM   #2
Eric Joyce
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
These were recently reposted to youtube. Thought it might be interesting to see / discuss how some higher level CMA guys move and use internal strength. The clip here is of Chen Ziqiang during a televised San Shou match, so the full gamut of skills are likely not on display. In other words, think of it more as a limited engagement sparring session.

Nevertheless, I think it gives a good impression of the "strength" in internal strength and shows how some of the better exponents move.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DEGLU5WEvM

another CZQ clip that's fun to watch (if only to see how much poor uke gets beat up)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAicu-IPjMw
Interesting. It would have been more interesting if the guy in red resisted. If they were sparing, the guy in red did a piss poor job IMO.

Eric Joyce
Otake Han Doshin Ryu Jujutsu
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Old 10-01-2011, 10:53 AM   #3
bob_stra
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

Quote:
Eric Joyce wrote: View Post
Interesting. It would have been more interesting if the guy in red resisted. If they were sparing, the guy in red did a piss poor job IMO.
Well, think of it as something between randori and a Hollywood movie, if it helps. Or your typical aikido dojo

In other words, It's obviously a "demonstration for TV" and I wouldn't be too surprised if uke and tori had been worked out before-hand.

They are however reasonable clips in terms of looking at how tori (CZQ) moves.
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Old 10-01-2011, 01:11 PM   #4
sakumeikan
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
These were recently reposted to youtube. Thought it might be interesting to see / discuss how some higher level CMA guys move and use internal strength. The clip here is of Chen Ziqiang during a televised San Shou match, so the full gamut of skills are likely not on display. In other words, think of it more as a limited engagement sparring session.

Nevertheless, I think it gives a good impression of the "strength" in internal strength and shows how some of the better exponents move.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DEGLU5WEvM

another CZQ clip that's fun to watch (if only to see how much poor uke gets beat up)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAicu-IPjMw
Dear Bob,
Neither of these guys would survive a Saturday night 'barney\ie a fight with a drunken guy in a public house in the Gallowgate [in Glasgow ].If these guys a experts? I will eat my sporran.The younger man is like a wooden doll, no life. Joe.
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Old 10-01-2011, 01:35 PM   #5
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5N...eature=related
I thought this one looked pretty good.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 10-01-2011, 02:33 PM   #6
Alfonso
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

an american idol spin-off I'd watch anyway.

I liked this one better, but still there's little fight in the under dog, seems clear to him he's outclassed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaC1g...eature=related

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 10-01-2011, 09:59 PM   #7
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5uMy...eature=related
Check out 0:20, 0:37, 0:39, 1:12, 2:53.

These throws were done against competitors who are also very good at throwing. If you or I were to compete with these guys, there would be no competition. They would effortlessly throw us around, no matter how hard we tried. They would be using little to no force, staying relaxed and calm. It would look magical. If you are interested you could learn to do this. You wouldn't have to search for a special instructor, or find some secret knowledge, it's available to anyone interested, in most major cities, around the world.

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Old 10-01-2011, 11:18 PM   #8
David Orange
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5uMy...eature=related
Check out 0:20, 0:37, 0:39, 1:12, 2:53.

These throws were done against competitors who are also very good at throwing. If you or I were to compete with these guys, there would be no competition.
I guess that depends on who the "you or I" are.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
[url]They would effortlessly throw us around, no matter how hard we tried. They would be using little to no force, staying relaxed and calm. It would look magical. If you are interested you could learn to do this. You wouldn't have to search for a special instructor, or find some secret knowledge, it's available to anyone interested, in most major cities, around the world.
Yes. It's muscle and technique. It's not Internal Strength, Internal Power, aiki or jin.

Interesting, but a different subject, altogether.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 10-02-2011, 12:22 AM   #9
sakumeikan
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5uMy...eature=related
Check out 0:20, 0:37, 0:39, 1:12, 2:53.

These throws were done against competitors who are also very good at throwing. If you or I were to compete with these guys, there would be no competition. They would effortlessly throw us around, no matter how hard we tried. They would be using little to no force, staying relaxed and calm. It would look magical. If you are interested you could learn to do this. You wouldn't have to search for a special instructor, or find some secret knowledge, it's available to anyone interested, in most major cities, around the world.
Dear Chris,
In your dreams. I do not see anything special here.i have been thrown around by experts , dont see anything to cause me to be thrown around 'effortlessly'as you put it.In fact some of the grappling is poor.Too many Bruce Lee movies???
Cheers, Joe.
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Old 10-02-2011, 12:53 PM   #10
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

If you or I were Olympic level Greco-Roman wrestlers then yes, we could perhaps give these guys a run for their money. I know that I'm not an Olympic level wrestler, so they would likely have a really good time throwing me around.

If you do not see anything special here, you are not looking. If anyone in China could throw like these guys, they would likely be on the Chinese Olympic Greco-Roman team-likely mandated by their government-so the Chinese would win gold metals, and world glory. If any internal guy could achieve throws of this caliber against competitors at this level, they could become Olympians. So why wouldn't they? Even if they didn't want to be Olympians, I'm sure they would enjoy teaching the Olympic team. If they could do anything in this area that these guys couldn't I'm sure the Greco-Roman world would be willing to listen.

It's not "internal". Who says? I've studied internal, I'd say they use their body far better than anyone I've seen on video from this forum. Their body use in impeccable. If you're talking about some details as to why we can clearly say these guys are not "internal" I'd love to hear them.

If you want to talk about sparring and throwing, this is some of the best in the world. No one in the IP/IT/IS world can do anything near what these guys can do when it comes to throwing.

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Old 10-02-2011, 03:04 PM   #11
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
I do not see anything special here.
Because IHTBF

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Old 10-03-2011, 01:37 PM   #12
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Because IHTBF
??????Ihtbf????Joe.Is this the Enigma code used during WW2??Joe.
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Old 10-03-2011, 03:01 PM   #13
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

you really should have paid more attention in the power/internal strength threads

Yoda would probably say: to be felt it had

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 10-03-2011, 04:05 PM   #14
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

So in the interest in having a real discussion around this topic. Prior to getting obsessed with internal strength, in addition to being a senior member of the aikikai of an independent dojo - I'd also go crosstrain (more like drop in to roll and spar) with some folks at the local BJJ school, Steve Blackman's MMA club (before it was an official MMA club), then some other guys that boxed at the gym I belonged to. I also grew up in various grappling sports and have enough additional time in various pugilistic/striking activities to know it's not my best fit, but it's good to practice every so often from the standpoint of being well-rounded (and learning to get over taking a hard hit by a skilled person trying to hurt you).

Having gotten hands on with some of the internal exponents often mentioned in these discussions - it didn't take me very long to see that it was "different" than your typical athletic strength (I used to get hands on guys from Edinboro University's wrestling team, including a NCAA champion, as well as olympic coaches, so I have an idea of what it's like to be overwhelmed and humbled *that* way). And the immediate flashing red neon sign in my brain was, "WANT!!"

The best way to describe it in layperson's terms is that you get the ability to mannage better what's happening inside you, how you're sourcing power and how you connect to another person physically - that it feels like someone has a control over your balance on contact (think a touch rather than a technique) - and depending on how/what they've trained to exploit it (and how much they've conditioned their body physically and how skilled they are at feeling your balance), it can be everything from a neat "ki" trick, to a way that they hit you with no windup (or hardly visible movement) that feels like a truck ran into you and you're like "WTF??". Much different from a boxer catching you flatfooted with a jab, hook combo or a Muay Thai shin kick that nearly breaks your leg.

In boxing or MT, I can "see" how those would work. But, if I watch, say, Chen Xao Wang, do a fajin release, I kind of say, "Hmm looks strong and whippy". Then the guy that hit me harder than anyone else ever has (again, with no visible windup, we were in contact, then "POW", I didn't see it coming) tells me how this CXW guy makes a concrete building shake when he stomps his foot. I have to say, it continues my interest in wanting to feel what people are doing. Apply that kind of shaking/release power to grappling, I no longer want this guy to get hands on anything near me - especially not my head/neck/limbs . . which means I'd better shoot him. Safely, from a distance. Or better yet, get someone else to do it. That's a solid defense, manipulate someone else into offense.

So after spending some time (a few years) doing some conditioning, skill-building - I don't grapple the same way. Not all to the obvious good. It's harder for me to get submissions because I find I used to muscle them more than I realized - to isolate a limb and control it. Since I'm trying to change how all of me's moving, I don't extend local muscle the same way to the hands. But when I do get, say, an armbar, it's much sneakier. My choke game, which wasn't ever great (short limbs, not an asset) has more life than it ever did. I'm a lot harder to take down than before (or throw - and some folks that have met me here should be able to vouch that I wasn't easy to take down before I cared about IS). When you try to submit me, it's harder to trap me as I can typically feel the setups much better than before and more easily slip into a counter (and keep in mind, I only sporadically spar in grappling these days - it's not upping my jits that's making me more of a handful).

In striking practice, I'm not the best guy at boxing/kickboxing/point karate ranges (short limbs, again, not an asset). But I'm actually okay at fighting at longer distances, closing in, forcing a clinch and fighting from there (think going from sword distance to clinch). Cutting off space with tai sabaki is it's own practice. And my dirty boxing has much improved - I can feel you moving much sooner, as I more easily plug into your balance. I can hit you harder with less movement than I could before. I can feel you favoring balance on a specific leg, for instance, so tactically if I wobble you in the direction I want to unbalance you, as you recover, BLAM!! A tactical application that takes advantage of the physical skill I'm training.

So, these are things I've found in basic application of my IS pursuits, over the last year or so of visiting MMA/BJJ joints, trying things out, not worrying about being tougher than the next guy. Do I get tagged or tapped? Hell, yes . . nothing makes you invincible. But I also can tell, when I step back on the mat after a short break - that ring rust should also be more of a factor than it has been spending dedicated periods in IS practice.

Does IS automatically make you a better fighter? I'd argue inasmuch other types of conditioning (edurance, weights) do - for a good while at least - which is why you need a delivery system for making the most of the type of skill/conditioning you're building. Over a lifetime, tho, I'd love to see some stats on the type of training that continues to build strength, versus the rate of power degradation. Would make for a good study, methinks.

Having proven, to myself at least, that there's value in application from the benefits training in IS provides, I'm back on the perch of focusing on the IS skill building/conditioning and trying to express it through the (not really, but sorta) narrow lens of my aikido. Trying to set up more partners to practice with, though - been too long playing on my own.
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Old 10-03-2011, 09:03 PM   #15
HL1978
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

II think Chris has a valid point, but in the last olmpics, the chinese did very well in boxing, judo and wrestling (11 medals compared to the US's 5), though the women faired fair better than the men, and a fair number had shuei jiao experience.

Given the level of IS knowledge in china when compared to the west, you would be surprised if they did not take advantage of that sort of training.
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Old 10-03-2011, 09:50 PM   #16
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
Given the level of IS knowledge in china when compared to the west, you would be surprised if they did not take advantage of that sort of training.
The existance of IS knowledge in China, and the open availability of IS knowledge there, are two different things. I get the impression that such skills aren't so widely known as we might think.

Teachers of traditional "internal" martial arts in China are not so open, and perhaps they would be especially reluctant to teach anything of substance to people who approach them not to learn and embrace the teachers' art, but simply to mine them for their IS skills in order to apply them to judo, boxing, wrestling and what-have-you. It's not something to be so freely given away, and typically, "the goodies" are jealously guarded. A lot of their own longtime students don't even get them.

Also, I'd think that athletes who go in for international-level competition training are far more likely to be very focused on the methods and techniques of their chosen sport-art, and less inclined to want to spend the large amount of time it takes to train IS and learn to apply it effectively and as second nature, even if they were aware of its existance and value. The competition life of athletes is fairly short. It seems to me that they typically want methods and techniques they can pocket and use as quickly as possible and be ready to employ it in the next big competition. It seems similar to the situation with professional MMA people-- with the more open availability of folks teaching IS in the West, you'd think that these guys would have heard about it and want it for their own. But, with a few very unique exceptions, there doesn't seem to be a goldrush going on there, either.

FWIW.
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Old 10-04-2011, 05:09 AM   #17
Michael Varin
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote:
These were recently reposted to youtube. Thought it might be interesting to see / discuss how some higher level CMA guys move and use internal strength. The clip here is of Chen Ziqiang during a televised San Shou match, so the full gamut of skills are likely not on display. In other words, think of it more as a limited engagement sparring session.

Nevertheless, I think it gives a good impression of the "strength" in internal strength and shows how some of the better exponents move.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DEGLU5WEvM

another CZQ clip that's fun to watch (if only to see how much poor uke gets beat up)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAicu-IPjMw
Wow. This thread was poorly named.

Sparring?

I enjoyed the second video, but it is clearly not sparring.

The first video. . . Well, that was just plain bad.

It is always informative to see what people think is "effective" or exactly what a "resisting" opponent looks like.

BTW, in sparring, even limited, there is no "uke."

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5N...eature=related
I thought this one looked pretty good.
Yeah. That's a good one, but once again not sparring. The guy in blue is Chen Bing's student and clearly there to be thrown.

Quote:
Alfonso Adriasola wrote:
I liked this one better, but still there's little fight in the under dog, seems clear to him he's outclassed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaC1g...eature=related
Probably a good idea for "IP/IT/IS" people to not post any more "Wu Shu Master" videos as a serious reference

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 10-04-2011, 08:58 AM   #18
Howard Prior
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Having gotten hands on with some of the internal exponents often mentioned in these discussions....Then the guy that hit me harder than anyone else ever has...tells me how this CXW guy makes a concrete building shake when he stomps his foot. I have to say, it continues my interest in wanting to feel what people are doing....So after spending some time (a few years) doing some conditioning, skill-building - I don't grapple the same way.... I don't extend local muscle local muscle the same way to the hands....I'm a lot harder to take down than before....When you try to submit me, it's harder to trap me as I can typically feel the setups much better than before....I can hit you harder with less movement than I could before....So, these are things I've found in basic application of my IS pursuits....Do I get tagged or tapped? Hell, yes . . nothing makes you invincible....Having proven, to myself at least, that there's value in application from the benefits training in IS provides, I'm back on the perch of focusing on the IS skill building/conditioning and trying to express it through the (not really, but sorta) narrow lens of my aikido.
Thanks for sharing your experience.
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Old 10-04-2011, 09:34 AM   #19
DH
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Probably a good idea for "IP/IT/IS" people to not post any more "Wu Shu Master" videos as a serious reference
Well now, I slammed that video when it first appeared as it was obvious to anyone with experience that it was a set-up demo. I was rather surprised to see who supported it as any sort of sparring session and I got slammed for saying what it really was.
While I agree, I would also add commentary for certain detractors that's probably also not a good idea for those with just Aikido backgrounds to post vids of their own in house experiments of what they think "weapons" were and are and then argue with those who really do know what they're talking about either. In the face of such profound ignorance from Budo teachers I struggle to remain polite in both cases.

Whether or not people with real internal skills decide to enter into competition class sports remains to be seen. You can have world class internal power and still not be able to fight. You can be a world class fighter and still have no clue about internal power. Granted knowing either is a great advantage and will be enough that most normal budo-ka will not know how to deal with you. But one does not equal or invalidate the other. If you have not, or do not fight...then you don't now how to fight. It's that simple.
If you have not and do not train internals that have been tested by some real experts than you just might be kidding yourself as to what you really have.
Trying to shoot in or throw and submit some world class Chinese IP guys is going to be very difficult, so you do the feints, and pick-apart, head hunter game to set them up to knock them out. Then again, if they have both...well...they will be damn near impossible to throw, while their short and long game is hitting you like a freakin truck with no time lag and weirdly non-telegraphing movement as they hunt you and set you up.
The most important aspects of the argument is a need to learn both; A and B. Spending time training in the ICMA in China is meaningless-most experienced budo people know this already. And being a good fighter does not validate your saying you know or have internal power. It is relatively simple to see if someone knows or moves in a way that demonstrates they are conversant in the fight game. It is just as easy to listen to someone discuss internals and watch them move and see if they are conversant and have the skills.
That said, to make a case that A = B or that either cancels out the other does does a disservice to the discussion.
Dan
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Last edited by DH : 10-04-2011 at 09:39 AM.
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Old 10-04-2011, 10:25 AM   #20
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Yeah. That's a good one, but once again not sparring. The guy in blue is Chen Bing's student and clearly there to be thrown.
Good to know. I thought a few of those throws looked like the student wasn't trying very hard, but I couldn't tell on some of the others. I mostly liked seeing the big dude getting tossed like a rag-doll, which is I guess success in advertizing.
I probably shouldn't have posted it since I didn't think it was a full-on sparring match, but I did assume the student was trying to throw Chen Bing. Was he not doing that at all, then?

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Old 10-04-2011, 11:30 AM   #21
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

@ Budd,

Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Whether or not people with real internal skills decide to enter into competition class sports remains to be seen.
I'm not holding my breath.

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Old 10-04-2011, 11:52 AM   #22
Alfonso
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Smile Re: Internal Strength in sparring

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
ot post any more "Wu Shu Master" videos as a serious reference
You prefer tall stories and anecdotal re-telling instead? At least there's something to watch and put a rein on your imagination.

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 10-04-2011, 12:11 PM   #23
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
[snip].

Nevertheless, I think it gives a good impression of the "strength" in internal strength and shows how some of the better exponents move.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DEGLU5WEvM

another CZQ clip that's fun to watch (if only to see how much poor uke gets beat up)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAicu-IPjMw
Bob--

I appreciate you posting these clips, because it's an opportunity to ask some direct questions. Leaving aside the question of whether what's shown constitutes "sparring" or not . . . at what points in these clips do you see CZQ using "internal" strength? What visible indications are there of use of IS in these specific clips?

Thanks. I'm trying to educate myself in perusing video material purporting to demonstrate internal strength, whether teacher with compliant student or non-cooperative engagement.
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Old 10-04-2011, 01:14 PM   #24
DH
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Whether or not people with real internal skills decide to enter into competition class sports remains to be seen.
I'm not holding my breath.
That's fine.
I don't contribute much on these types of threads because frankly I see an intellectual dishonesty in the discourse. I no longer believe there is an interest in obtaining any objective truth with certain groups and individuals. It is agenda driven rhetoric and nothing else.
Why is it that the posters here over the years; have never and I mean...NEVER.... acknowledge the reports of experienced grapplers and MMA people who have stated that this feels different? When presented, they are ignored. Why? Because frankly, the discussions with certain people are no longer discussions at all. They are statements of disbelief for the sake of disbelief only, that stand in the face of all reports to the contrary.

No one on the IP/aiki side is making claims that are outrageous or untoward. They are reasonable, sensible, in balance and fit with what Asian budo was and is. Seeing it cast aside without even a hint of first hand experience is more comical than upsetting.
We don't need to convince the world (why bother making an enemy?). In the end it just makes more budo people that are easier to defeat-using the essence of what Asian budo was all about in the first place...and leaving them wondering what they missed after thirty years in the wrong direction.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-04-2011 at 01:24 PM.
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Old 10-04-2011, 01:38 PM   #25
PhillyKiAikido
 
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Re: Internal Strength in sparring

@Budd, thanks for sharing your experience.

@Bob, thanks for this good thread.

Here is another clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdHoCspkphI of the semi-final of the TaiChi competition. Both competitors are over 200 pounds and they moved like bulldozers. They're not allowed to use any dangerous techniques in the competitions. It's understandable that people compare them to UFC since that's the easy way we're open to different martial arts. However true martial arts are different from sports or TV shows. I have no doubt these guys, started strict trainings when they were 3 year's old, have millions of ways to seriously damage or kill someone on street in seconds.

Last edited by PhillyKiAikido : 10-04-2011 at 01:43 PM.
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