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Old 10-05-2011, 08:56 AM   #101
DH
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Re: Spiritual Power

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
@ Dan: We train from different places. Thank you for your corrections. You may be right about everything.

I believe there is no in competition in Aikido. It is a fundamental difference in where we are coming from. Your arguments to me are like comparing apples and oranges.

Enjoy your path. Please don't confuse my pathetic attempts to talk about correct feeling with people who are looking to argue about everything with my teaching methods. If you want to complain about them at least experience them first.
I've tried several times....when can I come?
I am not complaining, Mary. I think there is a better way for all of us to communicate and understand together what Aiki...do is.
I do disagree about the competition model. There is right and wrong in the world. 2+2 does not equal 7, so teaching that it does is simply wrong.

If O sensei was talking about specific things, then we should at least be doing those things in his art. One could really state that...
"If we don't know what he said and what it means, than no matter what we think we are doing, it cannot be correct feeling... by definition it can be nothing more than guess work!"
Dan
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Old 10-05-2011, 09:10 AM   #102
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Re: Spiritual Power

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
May I interject here. I have stated I like that principle of correct feeling.

I think it is very important not only in Aikido but in life also for it teaches you to differentiate and be honest with yourself.

To act off of incorrect feeling is not very wise in my opinion.

So what is correct feeling?

O.K. Let's get honest here. When you do a move or technique that was so good, so effortless, so right, almost perfectly executed complete with desired result then how do you feel?

That feeling is special. That feeling is what you desire every time. That feeling is correct feeling.

Therefore it is a good principle to follow for it tells you if everything was aligned properly or not.

Correct feeling is therefore a result of.

Correct feeling is the hidden teacher.
Regards.G.
The crux of the matter is for better tools to help each other and our students. Correct feeling is only a hidden teacher because we don't know what it was that we just did to produce that magic feeling...that sucks dude BTDT! Having a good night at the dojo or a bad night and not knowing exactly what failed or succeeded won't do anymore. That magic is teachable and replicable. I've not met the human being that didn't say ...Oh! Show me that again. Wow, that's awesome. I can do it too."
No one has ever said to me..." I would rather keep on guessing and searching for correct feeling."

Quote:
This in no way detracts from what others have said here for whether it takes yin or yang or whatever to achieve this it is still a valid and in fact essential principle in my estimation.
And for the record, Graham correct feeling requires both yin and yang (in/ yo) present at all times. It really isn't a ..."whatever" at all.
"Sensei why is it we cannot do what you do?
Because you do not understand in / yo!"

By definition, everything else is guesswork and cannot be his Aiki.
I'll be in London on the weekend of 23rd. Frid., Sat., and Sun. Come on by and play.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-05-2011 at 09:25 AM.
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Old 10-05-2011, 09:30 AM   #103
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Re: Spiritual Power

You say that in public, Dan, yet when invited you let it drop maybe because we are not asking you as an authority but to share ideas? You can disagree all you want about what is right and what is wrong. Aikido with competition makes it no different than any other art to me.

The spiritual part of Aikido is not to compete and yet grow stronger yourself. One can tell how they are growing without having power over someone or by throwing hard. Correct feeling is like Graham described.

Last edited by Mary Eastland : 10-05-2011 at 09:31 AM. Reason: spelling

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Old 10-05-2011, 09:38 AM   #104
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Re: Spiritual Power

Graham,

Searching for "correct feeling" is like being given a unique and delicious cake, but not the recipe. You're left to try to parse out the nuances of flavor and texture on your own, without a hint (except, maybe "Keep trying to mix stuff together. Do it for 40 years... eventually you'll get the right formula!). If you're worldly and have tasted many different ingredients in your travels, you might be able to figure out some of the contents. But the precise ingredients and process will elude you.

Some people may savor the experience of spending a lifetime trying to figure it out for themselves -- or in a group of people stumbling through the dark together for a lifetime, in search of those "correct feelings" -- but most of us wish for a teacher who knows the way and is willing to show us. I'd take a proffered flashlight over a slog through the dark anyday!

P.S. A little unsolicited, but earnest, advice: Go to London and play! You'll get a recipe for a really killer cake.
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Old 10-05-2011, 09:42 AM   #105
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Re: Spiritual Power

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
You say that in public, Dan, yet when invited you let it drop maybe because we are not asking you as an authority but to share ideas?
I replied kiddo. I really did. And I am very consistent in private and in public. We all know of those folks that are awful and down right ugly in private, and I am not one of them. And sharing for me is what it is all about. I want to be very clear that I do not consider myself an authority. I know that you know people who train with me and I am sure they have conveyed what I am like on a mat. I refuse all vestige of authority, or sensei, or anything else that would place me above anyone. I would be surprised if you can find someone who would offer that view of me.

Quote:
You can disagree all you want about what is right and what is wrong. Aikido with competition makes it no different than any other art to me. The spiritual part of Aikido is not to compete and yet grow stronger yourself. One can tell how they are growing without having power over someone or by throwing hard. Correct feeling is like Graham described.
I agree with that. As for throwing, how about not throwing at all, but someone cannot apply power or will or affect you in any way because with aiki, they are neutralized on contact? Is that a competition?
Why do you throw people? Isn't that you redirecting their will?
Than you just competed with them for their will.

Dan
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Old 10-05-2011, 09:43 AM   #106
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Re: Spiritual Power

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
The crux of the matter is for better tools to help each other and our students. Correct feeling is only a hidden teacher because we don't know what it was that we just did to produce that magic feeling...that sucks dude BTDT! Having a good night at the dojo or a bad night and not knowing exactly what failed or succeeded won't do anymore. That magic is teachable and replicable. I've not met the human being that didn't say ...Oh! Show me that again. Wow, that's awesome. I can do it too."
No one has ever said to me..." I would rather keep on guessing and searching for correct feeling."

And for the record, Graham correct feeling requires both yin and yang (in/ yo) present at all times. It really isn't a ..."whatever" at all.
"Sensei why is it we cannot do what you do?
Because you do not understand in yo!"

By definition, everything else is guesswork and cannot be his Aiki.
Dan
Dan. It shows you do agree in principle then.

I have never met anyone who didn't have the response you mention either.

The crux of the matter is as you say so I have no disagreement there. A method that can be understood and replicated by the student.

As for yin and yang it's quite obvious that's all part of Aikido and is equated as such by most who do or don't do Aikido in my experience.

When I first reached the point of knowing without a shadow of doubt how to tie my shoelaces then I experienced correct feeling. I could confidently apply it to any pair of shoes in the world.

Before I could do this then my feelings towards tying my shoelaces was somewhat different.

Yin and yang, a broad subject, no doubt has many stages of learning and applying and thus many stages of correct feeling. The final one I would say would be enlightenment.

Regards.G.
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Old 10-05-2011, 09:47 AM   #107
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Re: Spiritual Power

Graham, there are a lot of times when I do something and plenty of effort is involved, yet I don't see it as "incorrect" because of that.

Mary, I'm sorry that you don't see the sense of what I'm saying. It may be that we have mutually incomprehensible world views, but if so, it IS a matter of world view, not understanding of aikido.

I had an interesting conversation with my sensei last night (those couple of minutes of hakama-folding and dojo-tidying are often the occasion for some really cool conversations, I've found). I said to him that the common view of mathematicians and scientists was contrary to what I'd experienced. People who don't have a math or science background often seem to think that mathematicians and scientists are people who have to have everything defined, ordered, labeled and numbered. In fact, the opposite is true. The scientific method has certain requirements in order to make valid conclusions, it's true...but in my experience, mathematicians and scientists spend more time venturing into the unknown than just about anyone else, and they do so (again in my experience) with a humble spirit, seeking to increase understanding but also acknowledging that they don't know and may never know. They live with a lot more uncertainty than many people who dwell in stereotypically fuzzy realms, and they accept that uncertainty and are humble in the face of it -- while many people who come from fields like philosophy or religion seem much more rigid in their need for certainty and definition.

(not that it matters but my sensei is director of a science museum...end digression)
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Old 10-05-2011, 09:59 AM   #108
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Smile Re: Spiritual Power

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
But whether one views such spiritual teachings as instructional or merely mythological does rather depend on one's religious beliefs, doesn't it? Do you mean to argue that one must adhere to Omoto-kyo in order to draw spiritual benefits from aikido?

Katherine
HI Katherine. NO I do not mean one has to adhere to Omoto beliefs, to draw spiritual benifit from Aikido. I am simply saying, O`sensei believed (because that is the way he himself had been guided from childhood), that training the spirit and putting that first, then ki/internal/mental power e.t.c, and finally to a lesser degree physicl power, is the proper way to progress,spiritually. He believed in his spiritual training, do you believe in yours? Thats is why I believe O`sensei would say, "go find out for yourself", because nobody can give you faith in what you do, but truly you!

Is this not what we teach and train, drop the power, embrace your opponent like a welcome guest and send him on his way. Be free.

This is why Aikidio Illumiates religions, because most religions follow this pattern. Thus it IS possible for the religions of the world to unite and stop fighting if only they truly understand this principle. Would this not be harmony?

To Graham,
Thank you, I have read and enjoyed this latest post and disagree with some of the really, negative posts put against you. Direct pointing to the mind, whilst looking at the refection of the moon, on the rippling surface. Peace Brother.

In Budo,

Andy B
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Old 10-05-2011, 10:05 AM   #109
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Smile Re: Spiritual Power

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
But whether one views such spiritual teachings as instructional or merely mythological does rather depend on one's religious beliefs, doesn't it? Do you mean to argue that one must adhere to Omoto-kyo in order to draw spiritual benefits from aikido?

Katherine
HI Katherine. NO I do not mean one has to adhere to Omoto beliefs, to draw spiritual benifit from Aikido. I am simply saying, O`sensei believed (because that is the way he himself had been guided from childhood), that training the spirit and putting that first, then ki/internal/mental power e.t.c, and finally to a lesser degree physicl power, is the proper way to progress,spiritually. He believed in his spiritual training, do you believe in yours? Thats is why I believe O`sensei would say, "go find out for yourself", because nobody can give you faith in what you do, but truly you!

Is this not what we teach and train, drop the power, embrace your opponent like a welcome guest and send him on his way. Be free.

This is why Aikidio Illumiates religions, because most religions follow this pattern. Thus it IS possible for the religions of the world to unite and stop fighting if only they truly understand this principle. Would this not be harmony?

To Graham,
Thank you, I have read and enjoyed this latest post and disagree with some of the really, negative posts put against you. Direct pointing to the mind, whilst looking at the refection of the moon, on the rippling surface. Peace Brother.

In Budo,

Andy B
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Old 10-05-2011, 10:14 AM   #110
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Re: Spiritual Power

Mary, I am not saying effort isn't valid. Learning anything takes effort and therefore without effort nothing can be gained.

When I get philosophical about study and practice to any students be they Aikido or maths or art, it doesn't matter, I tell them to go and look up the root meaning of the word study.

In one dictionary it said effort, in another applying oneself to learning from the original 'eagerness;

So I say study is the effort towards learning. It's all a cycle with a desired end result.

Now that feeling which comes with concentrated effort, continued concentrated effort, as that part of the cycle could also be called correct feeling.

It reminds me of a time I saw a student not applying himself properly, not giving full attention, in a class by Kanetsuka Sensei.

It resulted in him being hit square in the chest by a flying wooden tanto accompanied by the word 'Zanshin!'

So you remind me that there are a few correct feelings to be adhered to on the way to the one that works every time. Thank you.

Regards.G.
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Old 10-05-2011, 04:13 PM   #111
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Re: Spiritual Power

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I replied kiddo. I really did. And I am very consistent in private and in public. We all know of those folks that are awful and down right ugly in private, and I am not one of them. And sharing for me is what it is all about. I want to be very clear that I do not consider myself an authority. I know that you know people who train with me and I am sure they have conveyed what I am like on a mat. I refuse all vestige of authority, or sensei, or anything else that would place me above anyone. I would be surprised if you can find someone who would offer that view of me.

I agree with that. As for throwing, how about not throwing at all, but someone cannot apply power or will or affect you in any way because with aiki, they are neutralized on contact? Is that a competition?
Why do you throw people? Isn't that you redirecting their will?
Than you just competed with them for their will.

Dan
I don't feel like I am imposing my will on my uke. I blend with their energy and most often they end up on the mat. We agree to practice that way. Sometimes we practice with full resistance but not in an atmosphere of someone winning.

My impression of authority comes from how you post. You say this is right and this is wrong. And we both know that if you are giving a class you are already leading people's minds. The person who is considered the teacher starts with with a sense of knowing. It is implied, otherwise why would people be going to see you.

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Old 10-05-2011, 04:28 PM   #112
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Re: Spiritual Power

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
My impression of authority comes from how you post. You say this is right and this is wrong.
And the problem with that is...?

Inevitably, some things are going to be right and others are going to be wrong. Just as there has to be an "incorrect" feeling for a "correct" feeling to exist.

In my experience, Dan is much more often right than wrong. And even his spelling's improved over the years .

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-05-2011, 05:33 PM   #113
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Re: Spiritual Power

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Graham,

Searching for "correct feeling" is like being given a unique and delicious cake, but not the recipe. You're left to try to parse out the nuances of flavor and texture on your own, without a hint (except, maybe "Keep trying to mix stuff together. Do it for 40 years... eventually you'll get the right formula!). If you're worldly and have tasted many different ingredients in your travels, you might be able to figure out some of the contents. But the precise ingredients and process will elude you.

Some people may savor the experience of spending a lifetime trying to figure it out for themselves -- or in a group of people stumbling through the dark together for a lifetime, in search of those "correct feelings" -- but most of us wish for a teacher who knows the way and is willing to show us. I'd take a proffered flashlight over a slog through the dark anyday!

P.S. A little unsolicited, but earnest, advice: Go to London and play! You'll get a recipe for a really killer cake.
Cady. Nice analogy. But maybe limited. Correct feeling is for you to find and acknowledge and live up to in not only different stages of learning but also different aspects of Aikido. It's a valid rule.

If you practice sen no sen for example you will finally reach the correct feeling that goes with that. As I said it's not some high dream state. You can apply it to life and living. You know inside that acting from jealousy or greed or vindictiveness are all incorrect feelings and only lead to trouble. Thus it is a useful principle.

As for your advice? Well I acknowledge it's sincerity. Do I need it?

Regards.G.
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Old 10-05-2011, 05:48 PM   #114
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Re: Spiritual Power

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
And the problem with that is...?

Inevitably, some things are going to be right and others are going to be wrong. Just as there has to be an "incorrect" feeling for a "correct" feeling to exist.

In my experience, Dan is much more often right than wrong. And even his spelling's improved over the years .

Best,

Chris
I agree...I was just noting that Dan said he was not an authority.

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Old 10-05-2011, 05:51 PM   #115
Janet Rosen
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Re: Spiritual Power

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
You know inside that acting from jealousy or greed or vindictiveness are all incorrect feelings and only lead to trouble. Thus it is a useful principle..
I would posit based on experience in the world and as a longtime health professional that a lot of those who habitually act from jealousy, greed or vindictiveness DON'T in fact recognize they are "incorrect" feelings.
They are their feelings, they perceive them as legitimate, they embrace them as old familiar friends, and they act on them.
Hence my lack of acceptance of "correct" or "incorrect" feeling as being very useful constructs.

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 10-05-2011, 06:04 PM   #116
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Re: Spiritual Power

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
I would posit based on experience in the world and as a longtime health professional that a lot of those who habitually act from jealousy, greed or vindictiveness DON'T in fact recognize they are "incorrect" feelings.
They are their feelings, they perceive them as legitimate, they embrace them as old familiar friends, and they act on them.
Hence my lack of acceptance of "correct" or "incorrect" feeling as being very useful constructs.
I agree that is the case for those you mention. Thus they are not being honest with themselves. Maybe they are yet to find true self honesty.

Regards.G.
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Old 10-05-2011, 06:31 PM   #117
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Re: Spiritual Power

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
And the problem with that is...?

Inevitably, some things are going to be right and others are going to be wrong. Just as there has to be an "incorrect" feeling for a "correct" feeling to exist.

In my experience, Dan is much more often right than wrong. And even his spelling's improved over the years .

Best,

Chris
Can we debate that?

Greg
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Old 10-05-2011, 06:38 PM   #118
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Re: Spiritual Power

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
I agree...I was just noting that Dan said he was not an authority.
Yes, he is not the definitive authority on IS - but he has a lot more going on with IS than most others in the Aikido community and he is willing to share - so, why not check it out - the only thing you got to lose is some time, but there is also a good potential to learn something - you can never go wrong with that type of approach

Greg
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Old 10-05-2011, 06:49 PM   #119
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Re: Spiritual Power

Very presumtious.....
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Old 10-05-2011, 07:12 PM   #120
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Re: Spiritual Power

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Yes, he is not the definitive authority on IS - but he has a lot more going on with IS than most others in the Aikido community and he is willing to share - so, why not check it out - the only thing you got to lose is some time, but there is also a good potential to learn something - you can never go wrong with that type of approach

Greg
Because I am not lacking anything. I am content in my training.

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Old 10-05-2011, 08:00 PM   #121
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Re: Spiritual Power

This is not a "let's convince Mary" thread. This is a thread about "spiritual power". Mary has stated that she's content in her training and I think we should respect that. So, can we get back to the subject of the thread?

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 10-05-2011, 08:04 PM   #122
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Re: Spiritual Power

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Because I am not lacking anything. I am content in my training.
To be content with your training is one thing, to be satisfied with the content of your training is to stop learning. To continue to learn in a private setting is very possible and an approach that works for some period of time, but will for most....... like the over drawn well run dry. We all need a jump start at some time.....maybe even watching someone work will give you direction. Crossing hands or grabbing wrists helps even more.

The problem remains that most of us when we step out step out with someone we feel comfortable with, who thinks like we do or moves in directions we like to go. When we take risks we take little risks and make sure we are hidden in crowd at large seminars. In this setting we can go back to our general training when it isn't comfortable and no one calls us out.

You don't know me, it is not likely we will ever train together me being on the left coast and at my age I am sure we will never meet. Having said that ........Contentment is ok and no one, especially Dan, would deny you that. Dan is reasonably close to you and it you can get him to come up do it. He may seem a little rough around the edges, but he is a good guy and has a lot to offer. If you have your mechanics down, have your structure together and can move your body reasonably well, what Dan offers will add substance and an effortlessness to what you do, what you can do even when the other person is not helping. Give him a try.....in a setting with few folks to get in the way.

If you ever come out to Southern California give me advanced notice and if I can I'll try to introduce you to some other interesting characters out here that have things to offer in the aiki area......
Gary
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Old 10-05-2011, 08:15 PM   #123
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Re: Spiritual Power

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
This is not a "let's convince Mary" thread. This is a thread about "spiritual power". Mary has stated that she's content in her training and I think we should respect that. So, can we get back to the subject of the thread?

Thanks,
Mark
Well Brother
Spirit to intention to breath to physical movement to physical strength. As you know most of us start at one end, either spiritual or the strength, and never reach the other and never see the connection. We never put them all together. So to talk just about spiritual power leaves out the others.
Gary
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Old 10-05-2011, 08:43 PM   #124
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Re: Spiritual Power

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
This is not a "let's convince Mary" thread. This is a thread about "spiritual power". Mary has stated that she's content in her training and I think we should respect that. So, can we get back to the subject of the thread?
i am right with you there. no point in convince folks who do not want to be convinced, so let it be. do is a path for seeker. those have found, no longer seek. it's us lowlife who keep looking for things.... things to make us go....

anyone know what this spiritual thing? would one know it if one has it? or would one know it if one has not it? although in asia, when you mention spiritual it tends to be along the line of ghost and dead people. i had not seen ghost (and yes i walked through a couple cemeteries in the dead of the night many times ... don't ask) of any kind. i had seen lots of dead people, so would that still considered as spiritual, even though, there were no ghost? of course i came from a culture that is in to the ancestor worshiping. we believed that the spirits of our ancestors hang around us and occasionally give us a kick in the rear-end for doing stupid thing like posting about ki and aiki on aikiweb. * oooowwwww ok grand dad! i'll keep my posting down,.... really... i will... but they made me! sorry, got to go! *
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Old 10-06-2011, 06:43 AM   #125
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Re: Spiritual Power

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
This is not a "let's convince Mary" thread. This is a thread about "spiritual power". Mary has stated that she's content in her training and I think we should respect that. So, can we get back to the subject of the thread?

Thanks,
Mark
Well, the power of the spirit moved me to post that - so, I am still on topic

Besides, don't you have a book to write or something

Greg
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