Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-22-2011, 10:09 PM   #1
Ellis Amdur
Location: Seattle
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 815
Offline
Power Proud

There are a number of quotes, here and there, from Takeda Sokaku, in regards to Ueshiba Morihei, speaking disparagingly of his skills, that he was incompletely trained, etc. Now, remember the kind of man that Takeda was: he'd suddenly appear, verbally abuse everyone, back himself in a corner with iron chopsticks ready to ward off an attack, basically acting like a paranoid old man. (And lest one think that this was just the Ueshiba partisans being nasty, remember that his own son, Tokimune, described him keeping an unsheathed knife underneath his sarashi (belly band) so that his stomach was covered with scars, and how he stabbed his own son in the shoulder when one night the boy tried to put a futon on his sleeping father's uncovered body).

So, these insults could easily be chalked up to Takeda putting down his talented student who deserted him, and who, from his perspective, didn't pay him the money he believed he was owed.

BUT - there is some fascinating testimony that suggests, in one respect, Ueshiba agreed with him. Please remember that classic statement where Ueshiba was asked if he learned aikido from Takeda and he replied, "Takeda opened my eyes to true budo." This phrase has ignited all sorts of discussion amongst the sensitive. Some put-upon partisans of Takeda took it as an insult. Equally vociferous proponents of Ueshiba view it as clear evidence that Ueshiba was saying that Takeda taught this brutal crude stuff, quite unlike the refined and far superior aikido. As for the latter, not only Westerners. Tohei, in his resignation letter condemns the Aikikai by stating that aikido without ki is merely Daito-ryu. And Saito once asserted that what made aikido superior to Daito-ryu was that aikido had kokyu and Daito-ryu did not. (OF course, it is fair to wonder what Daito-ryu they observed).

Anyway, "Takeda opened my eyes to true budo."

So let us consider this passage:
Quote:
I’ll show it to you later, but there is a pond in the garden called the "Kinryukai" In the old days before the suppression of the religion, it was 2 times larger than now, but it was buried during the Omoto Affair. Later we rebuilt the pond by removing trees and earth, giving our effort as a labor offering. Ueshiba Sensei, of course, joined up, and as early as then he had tremendous, super-human strength, even though he wasn’t built very heavily. He said at the time that although he had physical strength he still didn’t quite understand true budo.
This is a quote from an interview from Bansho Ashihara, of the Omotokyo. To be sure, I do not have the original Japanese of either phrase, but it is quite interesting, considering the context. It's hard to tell when the pond was rebuilt, or if this is an account of it's original construction, but given the other stories in the article, it appears that Ashihara conflates a number of dates. It's unlikely that this was, as it reads, post-war. At any rate, although he had "superhuman strength," he didn't quite understand true budo."

My theory here.
1. By true budo, Ueshiba meant aiki. Takeda showed him aiki - of course, I'm not the first to suggest this.
2. But consider. Ueshiba's last sustained tuition with Takeda was in Ayabe in 1921, although he did subsequently attend a number of short seminars, but he is saying that in the late 1930's he STILL didn't understand true budo - aiki. Just as Takeda said when he took over the Asahi Shinbun class in Osaka in the late 1930's.
3. That suggests that, quite apart from his nasty insults and Oscar the Grouch, "isn't Uncle Sokaku ever going to leave!!!!" manners, he may have been accurately stating that Ueshiba still didn't completely get it.
4. What held him back??? I think he was "power proud." Even in the 1950's, Ueshiba proudly posed with his shirt off, (see John Steven's latest book) exhibiting the body of a miniature middle linebacker. Ueshiba, so proud of his titanic physical strength, seems to have had a difficult time letting it go - and doing the exercises he learned when his "eyes were open" with the correct body organization.
5. He seems to have believed - based on his own statements - that he "got" it in 1942 - at Iwama.

In my opinion, that such a genius as Ueshiba took over 25 years since his first meeting with Takeda to "get it" doesn't mean that achieving skill at aiki must take that long. The blessing of his own powerful body, I think, got in the way, and delayed his progress.

Of course, aiki is not aikido. For Ueshiba, it also included calling down the kami, and deliberate physical innovations he made in technique. Aikido is no more Daito-ryu than BJJ is judo. But true budo? That's aiki - and apparently both Takeda and Ueshiba agreed that until the late 1930's, Ueshiba didn't have it yet.

Ellis Amdur

Last edited by Ellis Amdur : 09-22-2011 at 10:14 PM.

  Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2011, 10:44 PM   #2
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,108
United_States
Offline
Re: Power Proud

Quote:
Ueshiba, so proud of his titanic physical strength, seems to have had a difficult time letting it go - and doing the exercises he learned when his "eyes were open" with the correct body organization.
This might be a dumb question, but do you mean his power may have been more rooted to normal muscular strength before 1942?

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2011, 11:08 PM   #3
Ellis Amdur
Location: Seattle
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 815
Offline
Re: Power Proud

Yep. That's what he seems to have said himself. Though I would know what year, when, etc., he made the change that he, himself, asserted he made. But that is, from all I've read, the general time period.

  Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2011, 11:44 PM   #4
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,108
United_States
Offline
Re: Power Proud

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Yep. That's what he seems to have said himself. Though I would know what year, when, etc., he made the change that he, himself, asserted he made. But that is, from all I've read, the general time period.
That's very interesting, I just wanted to make sure I was reading it right. Thank you, Ellis! It's interesting that he may have "got it" after the bulk of his training with Takeda.
Quote:
2. But consider. Ueshiba's last sustained tuition with Takeda was in Ayabe in 1921,

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2011, 02:25 AM   #5
worrier
Location: Berlin
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 12
Germany
Offline
Re: Power Proud

His 'titanic muscular power', loved that. It's nice he admits he didn't quite understand true budo, instead of being overly confident he knew what he was doing from the beginning.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2011, 03:48 AM   #6
Dazzler
Dojo: Templegate Dojo, bristol & Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 638
England
Offline
Re: Power Proud

So If I'm cutting to the chase...essentialy Ellis is saying that Ueshiba's physical prowess inhibited his ability to recognise true budo / 'Aiki' power and delayed his 'eureka!' moment for a long time?

I'd say that resonates very accurately with a the frequent posters we get here that say 'I've done weightlifting/body building/boxing/pancration or I'm 9 feet tall and 350 kilos...and no-one in my dojo can handle me so Aiki must be rubbish'.

I know that I was introduced to Aikido by a competition weghtlifter and that was exactly his experience...he struggled to learn because everyone fell over even when he was doing it wrong.

Whether this is the factor in things taking time for O'Sensei to have his eyes open...or whether it was a greater attachment / pride in his power I don't know....its probably speculation anyway.

Regards

D
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2011, 05:43 AM   #7
Tim Ruijs
 
Tim Ruijs's Avatar
Dojo: Makato/Netherlands
Location: Netherlands - Leusden
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 395
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Power Proud

Ueshiba started to strengthen himself as a youth, presumably because of bad/low health. He practised a lot of martial arts.
Perhaps he was looking to (physically) strong and finally when he met Takeda 'saw' true Budo in that Budo is not about physical strength... like you said speculation....

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2011, 05:43 AM   #8
SteliosPapadakis
Dojo: aikido-dojo-nippos
Location: Crete
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 97
Greece
Offline
Re: Power Proud

I have been pushing weights for something like 20 years now. i am above average strong, obviously, but i never wish to show it. Even when i started doing aikido, i never used my myscle power when a technique "would not work". And i always tried to be as flexible as a man can be (most of my classmates believe i am the most flexible guy around). When i started doing aikido, even from lesson one and without anyone telling me anything, i tried to blend with the class and the no-resistance spirit.
With this said, i find it somehow (errr how do i say this...) improper? difficult to believe? difficult to accept? that O Sensei was thinking otherwise. That, even at the initial steps in whatever he thought Budo was after he parted from Takeda, he put forward his bodily physical strength instead of the unified body and mind aiki power...
A bit confused here...
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2011, 05:59 AM   #9
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,910
Spain
Offline
Re: Power Proud

But what "true budo" really means?

In genuine budo, however, simply foreseeing the enemy's plan is not sufficient. But to equip your inner-self with the power to move the enemy according to your own will is the true Way of the Gods (kami no michi). This is just the tip on the iceberg of inspirational experience found in relation to budo. If the bujutsu trainees of this age were to realize that they should honor the "kami" and train in the oneness of the spirit and the body, they would be amazed with their own progress.

On the Martial Ways of Japan - The Training of Unification of Body and Spirit, by Moritaka Ueshiba

  Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2011, 06:14 AM   #10
Tim Ruijs
 
Tim Ruijs's Avatar
Dojo: Makato/Netherlands
Location: Netherlands - Leusden
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 395
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Power Proud

I do not think he (Ueshiba) did actually do this, but his mindset could have been, be better, be stronger, be faster...while deep down somehow knowing there was more to it, hence his queste for true Budo??? i do not know, was not there, never met him....

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2011, 08:07 AM   #11
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Power Proud

Quote:
In my opinion, that such a genius as Ueshiba took over 25 years since his first meeting with Takeda to "get it" doesn't mean that achieving skill at aiki must take that long. The blessing of his own powerful body, I think, got in the way, and delayed his progress.
It all depends on what we mean by getting it. I think the first order of business is correct information, then correct follow through and practice. Aiki requires a physical change in the body and a change in mind/ body, that not everyone will pursue or ever attain. As Sagawa notes; "Stupid people will never be able to do aiki."

I've found that when reviewing the case of Ueshiba it is a smart bet to review his peers. All of the greats who trained with Takeda said essentially the same thing; That they didn't understand aiki till later. and that while Takeda taught them...They added things on their own.
Worthy of note is that Okomoto said the same thing.
A Japanese teacher in Daito ryu recently told one of his deshi that he knew everything he needed, now he just needed time to grow, there was nothing more to learn.
An ICMA teacher told a guy in his 50's that had everything in place, and was doing things correctly, but would not truly understand for another ten years. He then said he himself didn't understand until recently. He was Seventy.


Transformations
According to Kisshomaru, Ueshiba claimed enlightenment in the early twenties, that no one could harm him. I recently read another account stating the same thing. Am I missing something?
Or maybe it is as I stated in my opening, like a fine wine...time. He might have said in the 50's...only now am I understanding. That would not surprise me in the least.

Quote:
Tohei, in his resignation letter condemns the Aikikai by stating that aikido without ki is merely Daito-ryu. And Saito once asserted that what made aikido superior to Daito-ryu was that aikido had kokyu and Daito-ryu did not. (OF course, it is fair to wonder what Daito-ryu they observed).
Good point, but I would dismiss both comments out of hand as nonsense.

All the best
Dan

Last edited by DH : 09-23-2011 at 08:19 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2011, 10:05 AM   #12
Tim Ruijs
 
Tim Ruijs's Avatar
Dojo: Makato/Netherlands
Location: Netherlands - Leusden
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 395
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Power Proud

Dan

Your analysis (for lack of better word) seems to say that while we may practise properly, we only understand after years, if at all. Does that mean 'simply' practise now without really trying to fully understand? Only practise, practise, practise?
This aspect intrigues me from a teacher's point of view. Because what effect would that have on constructing lessons? This is something I am currently spending quite some time on: which techniques to combine to have my students improve a single aspect (shi sei, kimusubi, kino nagaer, ma ai,...).
Thoughts?

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2011, 10:32 AM   #13
HL1978
Dojo: Aunkai
Location: Fairfax, VA
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 420
United_States
Offline
Ai symbol Re: Power Proud

Perhaps Ueshiba was contrasting muscle jin to qi/Jin?

If that's the case the above makes sense.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2011, 10:53 AM   #14
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Power Proud

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Yep. That's what he seems to have said himself. Though I would know what year, when, etc., he made the change that he, himself, asserted he made. But that is, from all I've read, the general time period.
Hi Ellis. If you have read my posts before you will know I have an alternative view.

He did state true budo is love. As people do not understand his references to love and universal love and the spirit of loving protection and thus can only see those words as meaning something other than budo then it is no wonder it takes so long to realize I would say.

His mention of physicality at those times you stated makes perfect sense to me for he hadn;t grasped true budo at that point. Yes he was into physical at that time though was questioning it.

Have you not read where he said he actually used to be obsessed with physical power and how he had now changed?

Have you not had your eyes opened to certain things by someone?

I have had such an experience, we all do, when something about someone doesn't add up. For example one person seems so great and representing true budo yet his arrogance and paranoia doesn't fit. Eventually this leads to a realization of true budo and the recognition that what that person had was not it. Therefore that person definitely did open your eyes to it but definitely didn't teach you it for he never had it in the first place.

Hikitsuchi describes quite well the relationship between his new Aikido and kotodama, spiritual being the new base. It seems to me it takes many years to get used to this.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2011, 10:58 AM   #15
AsimHanif
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 480
Offline
Re: Power Proud

I don't think I've ever said this...or even thought this before but I agree with EVERYTHING DH said in his post:-)
I'm kind of scared now.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2011, 11:12 AM   #16
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,108
United_States
Offline
Re: Power Proud

Quote:
Stelios Papadakis wrote: View Post
I have been pushing weights for something like 20 years now. i am above average strong, obviously, but i never wish to show it. Even when i started doing aikido, i never used my myscle power when a technique "would not work". And i always tried to be as flexible as a man can be (most of my classmates believe i am the most flexible guy around). When i started doing aikido, even from lesson one and without anyone telling me anything, i tried to blend with the class and the no-resistance spirit. With this said, i find it somehow (errr how do i say this...) improper? difficult to believe? difficult to accept? that O Sensei was thinking otherwise. That, even at the initial steps in whatever he thought Budo was after he parted from Takeda, he put forward his bodily physical strength instead of the unified body and mind aiki power...
A bit confused here...
Simply put, O Sensei didn't necessarily have the same frame of reference you did. Most of the people I've known who lifted weights very seriously were not what I would call flexible, for example.
Also, I don't get the impression Ellis is suggesting O Sensei was entirely muscle-based until some single eureka moment around 1942. My guess is that, assuming his muscle strength was indeed blinding him to some degree, Ueshiba had almost certainly begun to develop aiki connection by then through his training regiment, but that a deeper understanding of the deeper nature of the training perhaps became clear later on.
It's similar to learning math: you start with the form, develop familiarity with different parts, and over time, functional proficiency develops. None of this is to say the person understands the equations, only that they know how to move the numbers around to get a reliable result. In fact there is a debate going on in some circles now that most people (who study it) don't really "understand" math, even though they may always arrive at the correct answer through the common algorithm.

Quote:
Asim Hanif wrote: View Post
I don't think I've ever said this...or even thought this before but I agree with EVERYTHING DH said in his post:-)
I'm kind of scared now.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 09-23-2011 at 11:22 AM.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2011, 11:49 AM   #17
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Offline
Re: Power Proud

Power is only part of the process...self knowledge and enlightment are important, too.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2011, 12:43 PM   #18
Rabih Shanshiry
 
Rabih Shanshiry's Avatar
Location: Boston/MA
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 197
United_States
Offline
Re: Power Proud

Ueshiba may have felt he had some sort of personal breakthrough in 1942, but I think it's pretty clear he had aiki well before then.

His prewar students are generally considered to have absorbed more of Ueshiba's internal skills, as whole, than later disciples. They all studied with him most intensively in the 1930s before the war and the run up to the war intervened.

We're also all familiar with the story of Tenryu and the awe he felt when he grasped Ueshiba's arm for the first time. That was pre-1942 and it obviously wasn't muscular strength that impressed the sumo champ.

I also agree with what Dan wrote above. It makes perfect sense to assume that Ueshiba felt he knew more in 1942 than he did in 1932. One can assume he'd say the same in 1952 and then in 1962 as well.

So Ellis - can you define more precisely what exactly it is that you think Ueshiba discovered or realized in 1942? I'm having a hard time seeing "true budo" = aiki = 1942.

Last edited by Rabih Shanshiry : 09-23-2011 at 12:52 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2011, 01:28 PM   #19
Gorgeous George
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 464
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Power Proud

'lol' @ Graham Christian lecturing Ellis Amdur.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2011, 01:37 PM   #20
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Power Proud

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
'lol' @ Graham Christian lecturing Ellis Amdur.
Lol. Asking my friend, asking.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2011, 06:46 PM   #21
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,782
United_States
Online
Re: Power Proud

i don't really subscribe to the "true budo" = aiki. in my opinion, true budo is the way of the warrior, and aiki is one skill set or aspect/ability of a warrior. the chinese talked about the ideal warrior knows the will of gods. actually, plan and execute strategy likes he/she knows the will of gods. if you watched the movie Red Cliff, there is a scene where the Zhuge Liang, military advisor of Liu Bei, plan when the battle needs to start. one of his friend asked, "you seemed to know the will of heaven!" to which Liang replied "i know the change of heaven and earth!" (the weather pattern over the region and how the enemy think). or on personal sort of thing depicted in this scene of Ronin (one of my favorite movie) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Z_nTdyN6Tk a seemingly innocent placement of the coffee cup leads to a trap.

the evolution of the warrior goes through many phases, just as Ueshiba did. the young warrior seeks speed, power, and accomplishment through such means. he was aggressive and believed in his invincibility. along the way, the young warrior chance encountered an aged warrior that all the speed and power and aggressiveness of the young warrior could not overcome. the young warrior realized he wasn't as invincible as he once thought. so he followed the old warrior and learned his way. along the way, the young, now older and a bit wiser, warrior realized that he must forge his own path, as the way of warrior, where one cannot walk in another path. but as an honorable warrior, he must give dues to the old warrior. he, thus, spoke "he (the old warrior) shown me the true budo". and thus, spoke that he understood the gift, but he must forge his own path, where he must adapt the skill to his way and lived not the way of the old warrior, because that's not his way since he encountered another teacher of a different way, a spiritual way, who pointed out that there were more than one warrior ways. and time was changing. so as the young warrior aged, his way became more subtle, almost magical. he spoke of magical things. many believed in the magic, other believed in might. he was both for he believed he had reached the ideal warrior stage where he knew heaven and earth and where he stood in between.
so the young warrior had evolved from might, to skill, to subtlety. and power transformed from raw, to channel, to encompass through the young warrior evolution along his warrior path. his warrior way. his do.

ok, i am rambling. time for some serious drinking.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2011, 07:26 PM   #22
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Power Proud

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
i don't really subscribe to the "true budo" = aiki. in my opinion, true budo is the way of the warrior, and aiki is one skill set or aspect/ability of a warrior. the chinese talked about the ideal warrior knows the will of gods. actually, plan and execute strategy likes he/she knows the will of gods.
Hi Phi
I completely disagree. To put it simply what would happen if there really was a truly better way to approach power and control in budo?
A...superior...method.
I believe there is. All of the other aspects are secondary. It is the reason it is kept secret and it is the reason the Asian do not teach it to everyone and rarely teach it to westerners. For those who know it, they know that it is superior to everything else they knew previously. Hence men like Ueshiba saying Takeda opened my eyes to true budo, Chen fake calling it The great mystery...and many seasoned warriors considering the most important thing of all.
Of course there are other things to learn, I'm not saying that and neither are they. But we are talking about comparative value to those who can make those comparisons. Not others. If you don't know, then...well..I'm not going to argue about it.
If I had to, I would trade everything I know, all my skills, for this understanding.
All the best
Dan

Last edited by DH : 09-23-2011 at 07:29 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2011, 07:59 PM   #23
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,782
United_States
Online
Re: Power Proud

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Phi
I completely disagree. To put it simply what would happen if there really was a truly better way to approach power and control in budo?
A...superior...method.
Dan
i don't doubt there are superior methods. my statement was that budo encompass these methods and then beyond. budo is a super set, where aiki is a member. for thousands of years, warriors seek better way all the time. it's the nature of the warrior, to be a better warrior in every way, not just personal prowess. i am sure you heard the chinese phrase that translated into "four ounces move a thousand pounds" http://connect.gonzaga.edu/bormann/m...-with-4-ounces that phrase implied aiki and the foundation of taiji. the asians seek that way for long time. methink, long before Takeda.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2011, 08:19 PM   #24
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Power Proud

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
i don't doubt there are superior methods. my statement was that budo encompass these methods and then beyond. budo is a super set, where aiki is a member. for thousands of years, warriors seek better way all the time. it's the nature of the warrior, to be a better warrior in every way, not just personal prowess. i am sure you heard the chinese phrase that translated into "four ounces move a thousand pounds" http://connect.gonzaga.edu/bormann/m...-with-4-ounces that phrase implied aiki and the foundation of taiji. the asians seek that way for long time. methink, long before Takeda.
I am not sure where your point is leading, you are sort of wondering and mixing things together.
The very heart of four ounces to move a thousand pounds come from the taiji classics verse sixteen, but the heart of it denoted power, Phi, as is expressed and expanded on in the other songs.
It is a simple, yet profound principle echoed in Takeda's/Ueshiba's 5 and 5 makes ten 7 and 3 makes ten. The requirement remains to have power.To be able to stand like a mountain echo.. or the model is for not. And the four onces-which is not meant to be exact in any works I have ever read- is meant to simply discuss how little effort it takes when certain trained awareness is in place as is discussed in the previous verse (fifteen). The opperative word being to study to have this ability, as it isn't natural. Skimming through that article I was not impressed. Try reading CXW or LCD or HJS words on the idea.
At any rate you were first referencing a greater scope on strategy for a warrior using aiki as being a part of a whole and have now changed to erroneously referencing classical examples from one-on-one engagements to a larger field. Which way are we going here? There are much better works for thoughts on strategy.

Last edited by DH : 09-23-2011 at 08:34 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2011, 08:45 PM   #25
Ellis Amdur
Location: Seattle
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 815
Offline
Smile Re: Power Proud

Phi wrote:
Quote:
i don't really subscribe to the "true budo" = aiki. in my opinion, true
Phi - you'd have a stronger case, except for the context of the second quote:

Quote:
He said at the time that although he had physical strength he still didn’t quite understand true budo.
The quote is specific to him lifting large weights, running with heavy buckets of debris on a yoke on his shoulders, etc. Not about how to be a samurai, a true warrior, or any of that stuff. And this leads to my next response.

Rabih wrote:
Quote:
Ueshiba may have felt he had some sort of personal breakthrough in 1942, but I think it's pretty clear he had aiki well before then.
Again, to note a lovely nuance, "Still didn't quite (emphasis added) understand true budo.

I really don't think that this means he still didn't quite understand the "way of the warrior." Nor does it mean an either-or of crude lumpish power-lifter, verses elegant master of the ethereal. I'm referring - and I think Ueshiba is referring to the refining process - smelting steel from iron ore.

Which leads to Hunter writing:
Quote:
Perhaps Ueshiba was contrasting muscle jin to qi/Jin?
I think so too. I think people are getting side-tracked on "muscles" as if they are a) a terrible thing to have b) by definition, crude. Not Hunter - I don't mean you. "Muscle jin" is not merely a powerlifting doing a dead lift. It is an incredibly sophisticated level of training, that may far exceed the power and worth of many training in qi/jin or aiki. I think few people have the benefit of pure aiki training, exclusively, since childhood, like some in the Chen family - or Sagawa, for example. Most come to this training from other sources. And therefore, they develop an alloy rather than a pure metal. And that alloy may be incredible. Consider this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3q9y...eature=related
This is the utterly awe-inspiring, (to me, at least) Chen Xiang (not Chen village Chen - it's a common name), considered t'ai chi/xinyi Feng Zhi Qiang's top guy. BUT - his main art - his origin art - is Ba ji quan, considered by many to be the top power generation art, that used by the bodyguards in the Imperial palace and still used that way in Communist China. Allegedly, during the Vietnam war, Ho Chi Minh requested Baji-trained bodyguards from Mao.
Baji is, I am told by experts - a "muscle jin." Eventually Chen Xiang came to hunyuan t'ai chi, and has trained with tremendous dedication for decades. But some experts, far more knowledgeable than I, have informed me, even now, that what he does is not "pure." it is a combination of "muscle jin" and qijin. Maybe some, in the know, would deny this. BUT - consider if it were true. This man took all the challenges for Feng, when the master aged, and he is incredibly powerful, far more so than most of us will ever achieve, or even approach. Even if what he does is, by some standards, not "pure." (Lest some partisans get offended, I'm sure there is more than one viewpoint, and I'm using this as a hypothetical, to some degree).

Now, consider Ueshiba, another magnificently powerful guy. When such refined, honed muscle dominant power works for you - really well - it may be hard to completely give up. Imagine Ueshiba, in the 1930's, an amalgam of muscle and aiki. From most perspectives, he's nearly god-like in power. But from a guy at the very top (Takeda) he is described as an amalgam, not refined metal. And let us imagine that Ueshiba knows this too, that he's ruthless with himself, struggling to find that pure line of aiki, where aiki moves intent, not muscles move intent. So he self evaluates himself as "still didn't quite understand" - NOT "either-or," but still in the process of refinement.

Now, of course, I'm making a lot from a little. Why? Because it fuels a productive discussion for us today (I have an extensive ignore list, so I only read productive posts concerning a specific point - one can slow one's own progress if "power proud" (TM, all rights reserved).

Ellis Amdur

Last edited by Ellis Amdur : 09-23-2011 at 08:51 PM.

  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 18 Peter Goldsbury Columns 187 09-08-2011 02:41 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 17 Peter Goldsbury Columns 41 06-03-2010 09:46 PM
Yoshinkan and "aiki" MM Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 105 05-14-2010 12:59 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 14 Peter Goldsbury Columns 38 07-31-2009 11:19 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:32 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate