Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Non-Aikido Martial Traditions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-22-2011, 06:33 PM   #76
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,108
United_States
Offline
Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

I really wish I had maintained my physics lessons because I feel close to "getting" what Erick describes. Part of what he describes is a spiral-based balance of opposites, for example, but I'm not sure how it applies to the practice. I also get the sense that, like many mathematical models it describes an abstract ideal...except where he says "more or less," which seems to describe more of what it would really "look" like in practice (non-ideal/not-perfect), which, again, I'm not sure how to apply apart from "[use opposing spirals]." It's as if I'm hearing a description of all the parts of a car (and the correlating physical properties) in order to take driver's ed. Of course, online, it's kind of hard to take driver's ed. anyway. Still, the language is so outside the "normal" language set makes it hard for most people to apply meaningfully.
I feel like I could just as readily describe how sodium and potasium "cause" enlightening thoughts...if that makes sense.
...and of course, this depends on my actually having as much of a clue as I think I do, which I very probably don't.
Still, that's my effort.
Take care, folks,
Matt

Last edited by mathewjgano : 09-22-2011 at 06:37 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 09-22-2011, 06:38 PM   #77
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Ah common Doug
Give him some credit. It's why none of us could ever make sense out of this. Think of it.
Read the rules, operate within them
Read the intent of the rules
Place the targets in a position to get booted at every turn.

Hey, I hate my attorney. I can hardly sit in a room with him, but man is he brutally effective.
I makes perfect sense now. Brilliant!!
Dan
 
Old 09-22-2011, 06:58 PM   #78
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I really wish I had maintained my physics lessons because I feel close to "getting" what Erick describes. Part of what he describes is a spiral-based balance of opposites, for example, but I'm not sure how it applies to the practice. I also get the sense that, like many mathematical models it describes an abstract ideal...except where he says "more or less," which seems to describe more of what it would really "look" like in practice (non-ideal/not-perfect), which, again, I'm not sure how to apply apart from "[use opposing spirals]." It's as if I'm hearing a description of all the parts of a car (and the correlating physical properties) in order to take driver's ed. Of course, online, it's kind of hard to take driver's ed. anyway. Still, the language is so outside the "normal" language set makes it hard for most people to apply meaningfully.
I feel like I could just as readily describe how sodium and potasium "cause" enlightening thoughts...if that makes sense.
...and of course, this depends on my actually having as much of a clue as I think I do, which I very probably don't.
Still, that's my effort.
Take care, folks,
Matt
I am sure there are three or four other guys here who are intrigued and think they can make that work. I think that you should spend a lot of time going for it. Really work it, Mat. Give it ten years or so and find some other engineer hobbyists who might want to model with you. You never know, you should treat all sources as equal. After all, what if it will help you.
Listen, you should NEVER go to vetted and established sources for material based on word of mouth. I think that Budo model, that has been around for thousand of years...is B.S.
Use Engineering models
Use unvetted source material and people
Re-invent the wheel
And learn body parts off the internet
That's my advice for you.

No right, no wrong,
Good luck
Dan
 
Old 09-22-2011, 07:27 PM   #79
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
All structures are weakest in torsion -- and thus the most effective destructive action on any structure uses this principle.
Erick,

Your ideas are full of holes. Big enough to drive mack trucks through. While some people may not get it, that doesn't mean some of us aren't shaking our heads at the lack of information provided by you. You simply don't post enough science behind your ideas to sustain them. Perhaps if you took them to an actual professional or two and had them vetted, you might have some better foundational material for us. As is, though, it's fairly incomplete and so generic that it's almost not worth talking about. Almost.

For example, the above. You are missing some very key components of torsional structures that are completely solid. Perhaps if you did more research?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Torsion creates a complex shear stress in the body -- illustrated by the spheres and showing the component parts along with the actual torsional shear in the overlaid spirals. Those are the diagonal relationships as I perceive the opposite side upper lower applications that have been described, and as I employ them to better improve my own and other's training.
Perhaps they help you in your training, as you say. If so, that's great. However, there are various components of torsional movement that hinge upon spiral spheres interlaced by harmonic fluids which create orbital motion in microcosmic, harmonized localities that you just don't even touch on and that's kind of scary, really. If you understood this material as well as you say, I'd naturally assume you'd talk about them. Maybe you just decided to leave them out?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
The sphere is simply a representative model of the whole body (if one has learned to integrate it) with discontinuities (poles) at the earth and the point of connection to the partner, respectively. It can also represent any portion of a body that has terminal discontinuities (the poles of the sphere) such as a limb segment with its two two end joints.

The places where the spirals cross are the points where the stress on one spiral can most efficiently be compensated by shifting it to the other spiral without changing the spatial dimension of the stress spiral being unloaded. These, cross-over points, not coincidentally, coincide with the upper, middle and lower dantien, or if you prefer -- the head, upper cross, and the pelvic girdle, and present the areas of greatest sensitivity to these actions, with the lower dantien being the most powerful, the upper cross second, and the head last.

Thus, you take a straight-line compression (push, for example) and convert it, shifting it at the dantien into a load in torsion, and relieving the load through stretching on the coordinate tension spiral axis, and NOT by resisting or returning push for push along the direct line of engagement. Hold that push steady in a loaded condition and then relieve it by stretching (developing tension) up and down along the coordinate tension spiral, at right angles, more or less, to the compression spiral.
Which really gets you nowhere. Converting the compression via shifting at the dantien only loads specific areas which have already been loaded by your seemingly cross spiral connections and have only induced extra load into an already weak system.

Rather than converting and shifting any load, instead, the micro framework of integrated circuits must be interconnected and be working both dependently and independently throughout the system. Thus when a load interacts with the system, there is no need for converting, shifting, or holding. It is seamlessly meshed in ... well, I won't bore you with the details. I'm sure you know this stuff as you post that you do. It's just ... well, your posts seem so general as to indicate a lack of a thorough knowledge of both phsyics, anatomy, biochemical processes, etc. Although I'm sure that it's just me not reading enough into your posts.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
If the attacker has engaged a push, the shears form a stress field that alters the attacker's structure as well through that connection. It is like untwisting the joint of a twisted balloon-animal, so that the two connected spheres become one sphere -- making his body steadily conform to that same spiral stress profile as well. Thus, as your structure progressively stabilizes, the attacker's structure progressively destabilizes as his push evaporates -- i.e. kuzushi, and then there is only one structure composed of the both of you -- and you in command of it.

The other thing is the Lissajous curve. The dynamics of aikido follow that profile for reasons tightly related to the stress profiles.
Hmm ... stress fields, stress profiles, shears. Who was it that said there was no resistance (i.e. stress) in aikido? So, where are we, exactly, if we have to remove all the stress fields and stress profiles from these ideas?

It's also funny that you mention the Lissajous curve. You realize it has boundaries, right? That Ueshiba's spirals encompassed the Universe, right? Endless. Ever spiraling into infinity. Doesn't sound much like boundaries to me, but hey, I'm sure you meant that the curve be extrapolated into infinity, right?

Anyway, I found your ideas lacking in a lot of areas. If I were a professor at a university, I'd probably look for this kind of work from first year physics students. And then, if I were a professor in internal studies, I'd wonder why someone was just using basic, generic physics theories to try to explain complex motions that were covered by the areas of physics, anatomy, neurology, myology, etc.

So, I'm sure you just didn't give us everything that you know, right?
 
Old 09-22-2011, 08:07 PM   #80
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,108
United_States
Offline
Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I am sure there are three or four other guys here who are intrigued and think they can make that work. I think that you should spend a lot of time going for it. Really work it, Mat. Give it ten years or so and find some other engineer hobbyists who might want to model with you. You never know, you should treat all sources as equal. After all, what if it will help you.
Listen, you should NEVER go to vetted and established sources for material based on word of mouth. I think that Budo model, that has been around for thousand of years...is B.S.
Use Engineering models
Use unvetted source material and people
Re-invent the wheel
And learn body parts off the internet
That's my advice for you.

No right, no wrong,
Good luck
Dan
If that's your advice to me, I'll take the advice given to others then!
I'm just doing my best (I know it's not particulalry good) to translate: mental gymnastics for a science lover. Others on this site who know physics better than me have expressed their frustration in trying to apply these models meaningfully so I'm really not trying to add any validation one way or another...well I take that back. I was critical of the usefulness of such models. I'd just as soon say "dual opposing spirals," and then go experience what that might feel like. I think the learning of martial arts is far more visceral than intellectual. People did IT before physics could describe torsion tubes and the like...and I suspect simple IS was exhibited before the invention of words. Manifesting the idea is not the idea itself. They are two very different kinds of understanding...and that's assuming the idea even meshes with the reality.
It is like trying to learn to drive from engineering models. You still have to get in the car and even then you still have no guarentee you'll be a good driver until you compare your driving with other drivers.
Like I also said, I can describe how synapses work, but this doesn't tell you that I can think well. Similarly, anyone who describes some of the mechanics involved doesn't necessarily know how to manifest aiki.
So to sum up, I'm not saying he is describing what you're describing. He's taking some of the ideas you've expressed and trying to apply them to his own understanding. If he's making claims of understanding what you understand, i don't see how that's possible considering I'm pretty sure you two have yet to meet.
People are allowed to be wrong. I'm not trying to say who I think is right or wrong; simply trying to work through the ideas presented and apply my own understanding, lacking though it is in both mechanics AND aiki...which probably makes me a bit of a fool.
Churchill once quipped it was better to have people think you a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. I disagree with him. I want people to know I'm a fool so they can help fill me in on the particulars. You've helped me with some of that.
At any rate, this is a pretty big tangent to a thread I told myself I wasn't going to add to, but I hope it holds some value.
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 09-22-2011, 08:42 PM   #81
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,108
United_States
Offline
Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

"See a doctor; get rid of it." Words to live by according to Navin Johnson.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 09-22-2011, 10:35 PM   #82
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,847
Offline
Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Rule #1 You cannot say someone is wrong.
Rule #2 You cannot imply they are wrong.
Rule #3 You can only discuss the nature of the topic with them.
I believe you are obliquely directing these above comments towards my requests. If this is incorrect, please feel free to ignore my clarifications below.

What I wrote was:

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
Please stay away from directing your posts at the poster rather than the topic being discussed.

If you disagree with a post, please take the time to point out the ways in which you disagree rather than writing, directly or indirectly, that the poster is wrong.
and:

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
Similarly, people dismissing someone's thoughts by posting only a disagreement without taking the time to point out the ways in which that person disagrees does not amount to much of a positive contribution to a thread -- and neither does people directing their posts at the poster rather than the topic
I can see how someone may interpret what I wrote in my first quote that "you cannot say someone is wrong." I probably should have written, "If you disagree with a post, please take the time to point out the ways in which you disagree rather than writing, directly or indirectly, only that the poster is wrong."

Disagreements and, in fact, pointing out flaws in other people's arguments are a welcome part of the discussions here -- as long as said disagreements and pointing out flaws is written towards discussing the topic rather than discussing the poster behind the topic. I would very much appreciate it if the whole of what I wrote could be taken to heart rather than small parts being taken out of context.

I have been a bit more active in putting in these kinds of requests within the threads because I have received more than a few pieces of feedback that the tone and rhetoric that people seem to employ here are negative, (passive) aggressive, and personal. These requests are an effort on my part to try to moderate the tone of what is being discussed.

So, please folks. I'm asking all of you to help make this website into a place where constructive discussions can take place in a positive manner.

Thank you,

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
 
Old 09-22-2011, 10:52 PM   #83
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,488
United_States
Offline
Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
erick, nobody understands you.
Since I'm not selling anything -- that's --probably-- OK. I've lived 45 years in this condition so I'm used to it. I sought understanding of what I know and feel. I do not believe anyone contends it is trivial to describe what is done, or what can or should be be felt.

No one else has, in the five years I have been working on this topic, seriously worked out a mechanically valid description of things that I know work in aikido and related arts.The closest and due credit to him for using the traditional sources to that end is Sigman, but he feels the traditional chinese source concepts work in their own terms -- which I have no disagreement with, at all, they do, and they do quite well.

The other option seems to eschew concept altogether for "do... this, now do ... this" -- fine, that works , too, but we're leaving a big gap in our ability not merely to transmit knowledge but to develop it further in self-consistent ways and not just haphazardly

But those traditional terms are not OUR terms. We have internet discussion groups on all sorts of topics as arcane as you can imagine -- where the concepts in question have been carefully worked out so that they can be consistently discussed. We deserve to work these concepts out in a way that does not require that in depth traditional conceptual system as a first condition, nor yet that has no way to name in an objectively consistent way what is occurring and why when something is done, apart from being shown ".. this". Go look at your favorite threads and see how many get bogged down in trying to understand even traditional concepts because of conflcting and ambiguous terms of reference.

My development of concepts has been slow but each step builds on the last. At this point, I have not laid out a totally comprehensive description, although the main conclusions and the reasons for them are now perfectly clear to me. But the point in question in this topic was whether there was any discussion of a concept that explained the action in terms of opposite side upper/lower coordination, and my working out of these ideas led me precisely to that point in my own ideas and training.

I could try to be less piecemeal -- but the forum treatment does not lend itself to that , and the audience is not (necessarily) that patient. The blogs do allow more room to an extent, and I've worked on them over there. Somebody reads them.

But when you are working with a concept that BEGINS by breaking the more common western category boundaries in mechanics, you must work in terms of other mechanical concepts less common to the ordinary person. Mechanics requires a choice of conventions. Some conventions work for some applications and sometimes you require others.

I cannot find car keys you dropped in the dark two blocks back by looking under the lamppost here just because the light is better and you can more comfortably see. All the dissatisfaction in the world won't put the carkeys under the lamppost, until you first locate them in the dark and bring them there. I use the more murky terms out of recognition of their operation from my mechanical experience in aviation as well as aikido, and out of necessity -- not choice.

The goal is to take an accurate model and then make it useful -- not simply to work on mechanically useful things without understanding them in valid concepts. If I depend entirely on what is shown then I am limited by what I am shown. If I grasp the why of the thing, I am more likely to discover applications of the concepts that no one may have shown to any one yet, or see things in what I am shown that go beyond what is meant to be shown to me.

There seems to be no easier way. It is hard to simplify an idea until it is completely developed. I post periodically simply to glean any useful comments to aid the effort from those who have reason to care. I am trying to find concrete models to speed the process of understanding with more intuitive simplicity. This one is accurate and descriptive -- whether it is useful for your purposes may remain to be seen.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 09-22-2011, 11:06 PM   #84
Lorel Latorilla
Location: Osaka
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 311
Japan
Offline
Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Since I'm not selling anything -- that's --probably-- OK. I've lived 45 years in this condition so I'm used to it. I sought understanding of what I know and feel. I do not believe anyone contends it is trivial to describe what is done, or what can or should be be felt.

No one else has, in the five years I have been working on this topic, seriously worked out a mechanically valid description of things that I know work in aikido and related arts.The closest and due credit to him for using the traditional sources to that end is Sigman, but he feels the traditional chinese source concepts work in their own terms -- which I have no disagreement with, at all, they do, and they do quite well.

The other option seems to eschew concept altogether for "do... this, now do ... this" -- fine, that works , too, but we're leaving a big gap in our ability not merely to transmit knowledge but to develop it further in self-consistent ways and not just haphazardly

But those traditional terms are not OUR terms. We have internet discussion groups on all sorts of topics as arcane as you can imagine -- where the concepts in question have been carefully worked out so that they can be consistently discussed. We deserve to work these concepts out in a way that does not require that in depth traditional conceptual system as a first condition, nor yet that has no way to name in an objectively consistent way what is occurring and why when something is done, apart from being shown ".. this". Go look at your favorite threads and see how many get bogged down in trying to understand even traditional concepts because of conflcting and ambiguous terms of reference.

My development of concepts has been slow but each step builds on the last. At this point, I have not laid out a totally comprehensive description, although the main conclusions and the reasons for them are now perfectly clear to me. But the point in question in this topic was whether there was any discussion of a concept that explained the action in terms of opposite side upper/lower coordination, and my working out of these ideas led me precisely to that point in my own ideas and training.

I could try to be less piecemeal -- but the forum treatment does not lend itself to that , and the audience is not (necessarily) that patient. The blogs do allow more room to an extent, and I've worked on them over there. Somebody reads them.

But when you are working with a concept that BEGINS by breaking the more common western category boundaries in mechanics, you must work in terms of other mechanical concepts less common to the ordinary person. Mechanics requires a choice of conventions. Some conventions work for some applications and sometimes you require others.

I cannot find car keys you dropped in the dark two blocks back by looking under the lamppost here just because the light is better and you can more comfortably see. All the dissatisfaction in the world won't put the carkeys under the lamppost, until you first locate them in the dark and bring them there. I use the more murky terms out of recognition of their operation from my mechanical experience in aviation as well as aikido, and out of necessity -- not choice.

The goal is to take an accurate model and then make it useful -- not simply to work on mechanically useful things without understanding them in valid concepts. If I depend entirely on what is shown then I am limited by what I am shown. If I grasp the why of the thing, I am more likely to discover applications of the concepts that no one may have shown to any one yet, or see things in what I am shown that go beyond what is meant to be shown to me.

There seems to be no easier way. It is hard to simplify an idea until it is completely developed. I post periodically simply to glean any useful comments to aid the effort from those who have reason to care. I am trying to find concrete models to speed the process of understanding with more intuitive simplicity. This one is accurate and descriptive -- whether it is useful for your purposes may remain to be seen.
I dont know what you are trying to say here, but really, I dont think your average lay person here will go out of his way to buy a physics book, take a physics class, just to understand your freaking posts. That money is better spent dropping money on an air ticket and going to a seminar with Sam Chin and getting hands on instruction.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
 
Old 09-23-2011, 06:29 AM   #85
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,488
United_States
Offline
Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
I dont know what you are trying to say here, but really, I dont think your average lay person here will go out of his way to buy a physics book, take a physics class, just to understand your freaking posts. That money is better spent dropping money on an air ticket and going to a seminar with Sam Chin and getting hands on instruction.
I am sure he is wonderful. I tried to explain. I am not going to be selling a physics book, nor any book on martial arts. This is not a bookstore. But as you say -- nobody understands me. And that is the problem -- understanding. Understanding things of this nature seems in the usual case to come down in the end to personal attachments and a poorly,understood mode of action that leads to mystiques of power -- which-- you may note, also explains nothing. There is a long tradition of both modes of learning, And they can be quite effective in action -- but not necessarily in understanding. So I am NOT saying don't follow them if they suit you. I am simply not satisfied that those are our only options.

A conceptual understanding does not substitute for training, but training without conceptual understanding, means however effective one may become there is no simple way to articulate what you do, how and why. Rough analogy, metaphor and image become the only tools. Anyone reading the Doka can see what that leaves us to deal with when the interpreter of his own imagesis no longer around. And I say that finding great value and concrete guides to what I have studied in the Doka.

But the problem with that approach remains. Without conceptual understanding and objective terms there is no way to judge the relation between differing approaches-- without devolving into critiques of personal imagery or approach, at which most people take offense -- precisely because it IS PERSONAL. It devolves in the next layer of teaching into contests of loyalty and it (usually) ends constructive debate and becomes about the relative value of the person, clique, faction etc. whatever. The histories of both Aikido and DTR plainly show this.

Flying teaches you that "feel" and seat of the pants understandings of physical actions can easily get you killed -- because your senses will let you believe things that are not objectively true. Flying is equally about honing instinctive physical actions and interpreting what the sensory cues are telling you, but it is not always according to cues a lay person would understand. Pilots still feel the need to objectively understand the forces and senses they are exploiting, because ordinary assumptions are not necessarily applicable. The question is what the true assumptions are -- and why.

What we deal in is a similar kind of physicality in training. Bipedal human beings are closer tyo the mecvhnics of flying than to the mechanics of a pyramid. Like flying, we deal in dynamic stability -- not static stability. That difference changes the mode of mechanics you use to describe things, and lay understanding is generally pretty poor when it comes to concepts of dynamic stability.

Physical concepts, if objectively valid, have no loyalty, and no enmity. They are a bridge between such subjective approaches, however, and those approaches lead to problems that can be avoided.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 09-23-2011 at 06:39 AM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 09-23-2011, 07:34 AM   #86
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
But as you say -- nobody understands me. And that is the problem -- understanding.
That isn't true. There are people reading who do understand what you've written. But, at the same time, the ideas you've presented are at such a low level that they're almost not worth talking about.

For example, someone asks the questions, "How do I win the Indianapolis 500?"

And then someone answers, "you take a straight-line compression (push, for example) and convert it into a load in torsion, and relieving the load through stretching the leg on the coordinate tension spiral axis such that energy is redirected downward into the ground." A long way around to simply saying, "You push down on the gas pedal."

Technically, yes, you can win the Indy 500 by pushing down on the gas pedal. But it's such an extremely low level understanding of what's really going on that it's almost not worth building a conversation around. And not having actually driven a race car, let alone won the Indy 500, it's all simple theory. Everyone knows that theory is not reality.

I'm surprised you post these fairly simple ideas out there as I'm sure you're capable of much more involved studies dealing with the entirety of aspects covered such as, but not limited to, bones, muscles, ligaments, tendons, fascia, the chemical, electrical, and nervous system of the body, high level physics detailing motion in the human body, etc.

I'm really looking forward to your posts where you cover everything that's going on rather than strictly simple theoretical "push on the gas pedal" type posts.

Mark
 
Old 09-23-2011, 07:35 AM   #87
gregstec
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
United_States
Offline
Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I am sure he is wonderful. I tried to explain. I am not going to be selling a physics book, nor any book on martial arts. This is not a bookstore. But as you say -- nobody understands me. And that is the problem -- understanding. Understanding things of this nature seems in the usual case to come down in the end to personal attachments and a poorly,understood mode of action that leads to mystiques of power -- which-- you may note, also explains nothing. There is a long tradition of both modes of learning, And they can be quite effective in action -- but not necessarily in understanding. So I am NOT saying don't follow them if they suit you. I am simply not satisfied that those are our only options.

A conceptual understanding does not substitute for training, but training without conceptual understanding, means however effective one may become there is no simple way to articulate what you do, how and why. Rough analogy, metaphor and image become the only tools. Anyone reading the Doka can see what that leaves us to deal with when the interpreter of his own imagesis no longer around. And I say that finding great value and concrete guides to what I have studied in the Doka.

But the problem with that approach remains. Without conceptual understanding and objective terms there is no way to judge the relation between differing approaches-- without devolving into critiques of personal imagery or approach, at which most people take offense -- precisely because it IS PERSONAL. It devolves in the next layer of teaching into contests of loyalty and it (usually) ends constructive debate and becomes about the relative value of the person, clique, faction etc. whatever. The histories of both Aikido and DTR plainly show this.

Flying teaches you that "feel" and seat of the pants understandings of physical actions can easily get you killed -- because your senses will let you believe things that are not objectively true. Flying is equally about honing instinctive physical actions and interpreting what the sensory cues are telling you, but it is not always according to cues a lay person would understand. Pilots still feel the need to objectively understand the forces and senses they are exploiting, because ordinary assumptions are not necessarily applicable. The question is what the true assumptions are -- and why.

What we deal in is a similar kind of physicality in training. Bipedal human beings are closer tyo the mecvhnics of flying than to the mechanics of a pyramid. Like flying, we deal in dynamic stability -- not static stability. That difference changes the mode of mechanics you use to describe things, and lay understanding is generally pretty poor when it comes to concepts of dynamic stability.

Physical concepts, if objectively valid, have no loyalty, and no enmity. They are a bridge between such subjective approaches, however, and those approaches lead to problems that can be avoided.
Erick,

The bottom line here is that you need to write to the level of the audience so your message gets through and not write to impress so everyone can see how smart you are - that is basic communications. I have a technical background and I can follow your stuff somewhat - but it does not have to be that difficult in a lay person forum. I understand that in the judicial environment you may want to dazzle folks with brilliance or baffle them with bullshit, but this is not the place for that type of stuff.

Greg
 
Old 09-23-2011, 08:38 AM   #88
Lorel Latorilla
Location: Osaka
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 311
Japan
Offline
Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I am sure he is wonderful. I tried to explain. I am not going to be selling a physics book, nor any book on martial arts. This is not a bookstore. But as you say -- nobody understands me. And that is the problem -- understanding. Understanding things of this nature seems in the usual case to come down in the end to personal attachments and a poorly,understood mode of action that leads to mystiques of power -- which-- you may note, also explains nothing. There is a long tradition of both modes of learning, And they can be quite effective in action -- but not necessarily in understanding. So I am NOT saying don't follow them if they suit you. I am simply not satisfied that those are our only options.

A conceptual understanding does not substitute for training, but training without conceptual understanding, means however effective one may become there is no simple way to articulate what you do, how and why. Rough analogy, metaphor and image become the only tools. Anyone reading the Doka can see what that leaves us to deal with when the interpreter of his own imagesis no longer around. And I say that finding great value and concrete guides to what I have studied in the Doka.

But the problem with that approach remains. Without conceptual understanding and objective terms there is no way to judge the relation between differing approaches-- without devolving into critiques of personal imagery or approach, at which most people take offense -- precisely because it IS PERSONAL. It devolves in the next layer of teaching into contests of loyalty and it (usually) ends constructive debate and becomes about the relative value of the person, clique, faction etc. whatever. The histories of both Aikido and DTR plainly show this.

Flying teaches you that "feel" and seat of the pants understandings of physical actions can easily get you killed -- because your senses will let you believe things that are not objectively true. Flying is equally about honing instinctive physical actions and interpreting what the sensory cues are telling you, but it is not always according to cues a lay person would understand. Pilots still feel the need to objectively understand the forces and senses they are exploiting, because ordinary assumptions are not necessarily applicable. The question is what the true assumptions are -- and why.

What we deal in is a similar kind of physicality in training. Bipedal human beings are closer tyo the mecvhnics of flying than to the mechanics of a pyramid. Like flying, we deal in dynamic stability -- not static stability. That difference changes the mode of mechanics you use to describe things, and lay understanding is generally pretty poor when it comes to concepts of dynamic stability.

Physical concepts, if objectively valid, have no loyalty, and no enmity. They are a bridge between such subjective approaches, however, and those approaches lead to problems that can be avoided.
Erick, for you to presume that you have solved the problem and captured the essence of bodyskill is pretty grand. I would love to go to your seminars and touch hands with you and learn from you. I would rather do that than read your indecipherable descriptions of bodyskill. You ever gonna come out here to Japan soon and do a seminar?

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
 
Old 09-23-2011, 09:01 AM   #89
Tenyu
Dojo: Aikibodo
Location: Arcata CA
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 150
United_States
Offline
Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Erick,

In your spherical shear spiral figure, I assume the bottom pole refers to nage's feet. If so how does the sphere's one connection with the ground translate across nage's two legs and feet? Does this concentration of spirals you term as a discontinuity in your description imply resistance between nage and the ground?

Quote:
Lastly, there is a kind fifth mode of action, and it also depends on this transitional mechanism -- which involves the rapid successive and continuous transition action between them, a shuddering, vibratory action shown in furitama/tekubi-furi and described as the "spirit of bees" in the Doka. Ark is well-reputed to use this mode to great effect as can be seen on various videos. I use it routinely in kokyunage throws without having to shift weight laterally.
Can you link a video showing this?

thanks,
Tenyu
 
Old 09-23-2011, 10:15 AM   #90
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,847
Offline
Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Thread closed.

Stop with directing your posts at the poster and not at the topic, folks.

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
 

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Tai Chi Ruler David Orange Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 7 05-03-2010 01:23 PM
050) Intended Movement Without Conscious Intention: Week of August 23, 2009 Marc Abrams External Aikido Blog Posts 3 08-24-2009 02:24 PM
Is Aikido effective for police? erogers General 136 07-13-2008 07:00 AM
Training the Body for Martial Movement Upyu Training 25 01-03-2007 11:24 AM
Systema Seminar with Vladimir Vasiliev, Part 1 aikibaka131 Seminars 2 07-22-2003 12:45 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:42 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate