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Old 09-20-2011, 04:32 PM   #51
DH
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Erick, seems like you have it all figured out. Plan to do any seminars soon? I would love to go where you are at and train with you.
That model is not what I am talking about. And it doesn't work.
No one knows of anyone who will vet Eric as having anything unusual by way of skill. The single member here who met him said he felt like your average Aikido-ka of similar rank.So, if and when you use his methods I guess you feel....like the average Aikido-ka.

I have no opinion other than to state again to Mat and others here....If your goal is IP/Aiki, If you think there is no right or wrong, bad or good, and you are looking for a method to get it, then why not go train Graham and Eric's methods? Tthey both state they understand ki and aiki and what we do. Train for ten years. And lets see how that works out against some other methods we know of.
Now...if you state ..."No I don't want to."
Please state, why not.

You guys can argue methods all day long, it is what it is. Your understanding is in your own hands and can be tested. And when it is- not everyone gets an "A." You would be wasting decades of time to think every method is equal and nothing is innately wrong.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 09-20-2011 at 04:37 PM.
 
Old 09-20-2011, 04:38 PM   #52
Budd
 
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Budd.

When I derailed the thread, the point I was trying to make was that I believe these skills, what we're doing to train them and our thoughts and ideas about them can be shared and discussed in a civil way. Whether you're doing what I"m doing or whether you're goals for it are the same as mine isn't really important. We can focus on the common ground, of which there are acres, and accept that not every routine or exercise or way of thinking about things fits everyone else. There are a lot of people out there who have been to a seminar or two and maybe don't have the luxury of regular groups to meet up with and such, but they're still doing things they were shown and are still struggling to come to a better understanding. There's no reason those people can't read a discussion about these skills and apply another persons perspective to what they're doing to increase their understanding. That stuff happens... everywhere, even on the internet, without becoming arguements. Where the arguements start is when people get so hyper focused in believing that what they're doing is the best way, the most powerful way, the only way and simply can't put that down long enough to appreciate the common ground that exists. I mean that type of interaction, exchange and acceptance sounds to me to be exactly what Ueshiba had in mind for his aiki-do. I believe that he also suggested that it is the ego that ruins it, to which I agree.

If you go into a gym, you'll find all sorts of people working out. They all have different motivations, different methods and different goals, but you don't see fights breaking out because the guy who wants to become as big and strong as possible is doing something different from the guy who just wants to put on some muscle and look better in his mankini. No, those guys could find common ground and discuss things about their approaches that each might find benefit in, regardless of the fact that they have completely different goals. It should be no different here. You could read my description of what I'm doing and my thoughts about it and offer suggestions "maybe give this a try" or "see how this feels". I get up and try it, maybe it makes sense, maybe it doesn't, maybe I feel it and say "damn, that's hot!" or maybe I say "yah, I see what you're saying, but I'm not sold just yet". That's discussion and that's something people can benefit from. It's no replacement for hands on time, but it's certainly a way for improving our thought processes about what we're doing which absolutely helps, especially when you factor in the different goals we all have.

Thanks again.
Hi Jason,

The parts that are missing from above, and I generally agree - people are going to do their thing and trade notes, etc. based on some common understanding, are around: 1) What are you basing your understanding on? (a- were you taught b- did you come up with it c-some combination d-other) 2) What can you actually do? 3) Who can vouch for you?

Those things will mean different things in different degrees to different folks, but will be considerations to decide for discussion purposes, how you interpret their input and then how you filter interactions.
 
Old 09-20-2011, 05:09 PM   #53
DH
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Hi Budd ...
to my knowledge and review- no one else but me has ever even mentioned that particular mode of movement of utilizing opposite sides and upper lower as opposed to same side movement on the modern forums, much less explained the reasons it works or fails.
All the best
Dan
Quote:
Eric States:
Ahem .... That is not entirely true.
It is explained in understanding these depictions of the mechanics involved. Whether this manner of explanations works for everyone or not -- it is explained by them.
Again you are telling me you understand what I am doing. No...you do not.
Your model is in direct conflict to what I am doing and as a method for attaining the skills we are discussing...fails.
Not only are you wrong again, but you are now using false information (the two are mutually exclusive), to try and place yourself as having the same level of understanding-which you do not and in a small way, call me a liar....nice. I've seen it before.
Secondarily, your whacky models came after my discussions any way and not before. What I said...which is unrelated to your model (equal to a total change of subject really) stands, and you Eric... have no part in it, by your own submission.
Dan
 
Old 09-20-2011, 05:11 PM   #54
DH
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Hi Jason,

The parts that are missing from above, and I generally agree - people are going to do their thing and trade notes, etc. based on some common understanding, are around: 1) What are you basing your understanding on? (a- were you taught b- did you come up with it c-some combination d-other) 2) What can you actually do? 3) Who can vouch for you?

Those things will mean different things in different degrees to different folks, but will be considerations to decide for discussion purposes, how you interpret their input and then how you filter interactions.
Good Points.
Dan
 
Old 09-20-2011, 05:51 PM   #55
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Hi folks,

Please stay away from directing your posts at the poster rather than the topic being discussed.

If you disagree with a post, please take the time to point out the ways in which you disagree rather than writing, directly or indirectly, that the poster is wrong.

Thank you,

-- Jun

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Old 09-21-2011, 02:33 AM   #56
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
You guys can argue methods all day long, it is what it is. Your understanding is in your own hands and can be tested. And when it is- not everyone gets an "A." You would be wasting decades of time to think every method is equal and nothing is innately wrong.
Dan
Again, like I said earlier, how can we judge which method is in fact the 'right/best' one? Everybody does their best. Some search harder...
Quality will emerge eventually. The problem is that might take a lot of time (everybody needs to invent the wheel). So a good teacher will help, but then we are back a square one: how to judge the teacher?

I gree with Jun here, when someone makes a statement and you feel different, make clear why you think it is incorrect, or how one can improve.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
 
Old 09-21-2011, 07:38 AM   #57
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
I agree with Jun here, when someone makes a statement and you feel different, make clear why you think it is incorrect, or how one can improve.
There is no requirement to address all the many theories though is there. It won't happen again. I will simply remain silent.

In the old days, people had to go a test and feel and waste incredible amounts of money and time to get thrown in the dirt over and over and over till when they woke up, they understood that there actually was a way to determine that not all methods are equal and some people know exactly what they are doing and talking about. You would think that there would be a better way. Maybe there isn't.

As an aside, I will tell you that there is a master class ICMA teacher who reads this forum regularly. He knows exactly who knows what...by what they write and has stated so to his students around the world.
You don't know any different, so you listen to everyone's theories as equal. I understand that mindset. I encounter it all the time on the mat.
Good luck in your training
Dan

Last edited by DH : 09-21-2011 at 07:53 AM.
 
Old 09-21-2011, 08:33 AM   #58
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

I had rather not you stay silent...a more concrete motivation would certainly help.

Please do not mistake my respect for other opinions and trying to understand where they originate from with me regarding them as equal or even my own.
I value each and everyone's opinion when delivered with good intent and proper respect.
Perhaps I am simply ignorant and do not know left from right in Aikido.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
 
Old 09-21-2011, 08:49 AM   #59
DH
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
I value each and everyone's opinion when delivered with good intent and proper respect.
That's an interesting comment. we are talking about movement, correct?
What would you think if a 5th kyu came here and said he is doing what a shihan is doing and argues that the Shihan doesn't understand the mechanics of what he himself is talking about?
What if different Shihan offered advice and that 5th kyu did nothing but argue that none of them understood what it is they were doing and that if they did, they would see he was doing the same thing...then, he refused all requests to meet?
Answer_______________________.
 
Old 09-21-2011, 09:10 AM   #60
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

different frame of reference

BTW the fifth kyu does not show proper respect nor good intent, but for argument's sake.

Last edited by Tim Ruijs : 09-21-2011 at 09:15 AM.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
 
Old 09-21-2011, 09:25 AM   #61
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Hi Jason,

The parts that are missing from above, and I generally agree - people are going to do their thing and trade notes, etc. based on some common understanding, are around: 1) What are you basing your understanding on? (a- were you taught b- did you come up with it c-some combination d-other) 2) What can you actually do? 3) Who can vouch for you?

Those things will mean different things in different degrees to different folks, but will be considerations to decide for discussion purposes, how you interpret their input and then how you filter interactions.
Well, I think that you can make some assumptions of someones understanding of the common ground shared between all these methods by how they talk about it. Does that mean you're not going to get some clown come along who slings jargon and talks good game? no, not at all, but if that person comes along and is making suggestions about what people should be doing or trying you know, you get up and try what they're talking about. That shared common ground, IMO, makes that possible. As for what they can actually do and who can vouch for them. If doing the above didn't set off anything for you, then you work to get some hands on time with said person and see what they're talking about, regardless if someone else vouches for them. If it's not making sense to you, based on your understanding and experience of that shared common ground, then you gotta get hands on, period. Which you should do any chance you can anyway.

I'm not suggesting online discussion as a replacement for that. You should always go for that option when it's there. I mean hell, I've made 11 hour trips to go see people and feel what they're doing, but doing that ALL the time isn't realistic for even me, much less others.

Again, the type of interaction i'm talking about, goes something like this:

Using this thread as an example, we start sharing our thoughts and things we're doing as it relates to hip.lower torso movement.

Someone pops in and says "nice thread, I've been doing this and feeling this, but when I do this, I feel something different" and we discuss it and hash it out and come to terms with what and why there's a different feeling there. Other people reading that thread may also be at similar points in their process and do the same and feel compelled to jump in as well and share their experiences.

Then Dan comes in and says "I see what you guys are saying, maybe try this and see what you think because in my experience this will get you over whatever hurdle you're discussing" and he gives some example to feel what he's talking about.

So we get up and try it. It may make sense, it may not, some may feel that difference, others may not. For the ones that don't, well, you keep plugging away and putting in some time and you know, you try to get hands on time with Dan or someone with more experience with what he's talking about when you can, because we all know that's ALWAYS the best.

There's nothing antagonistic about that exchange. The only thing it needs is people interested enough and willing to share their thoughts.
 
Old 09-21-2011, 10:04 AM   #62
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
I value each and everyone's opinion when delivered with good intent and proper respect.
You can respect a person while arguing net worth of a theory. I don't value someones opinion because it is offered with respect. I value it on its merits.
How does delivery
add credibility
to their opinion.

I have been in front of too many expert teachers who..while really nice people, had no real credibility to their own arguments on physical movement when it came to this topic. But we are supposed to give every internet poster respect for opinions on movement that are inefficient and have been cast aside or will not work?
Otherwise what you are actually saying is that the those with no real understanding get to borrow the credibility of those who put in hard work and had true success with their efforts. You might as well start a thread where junior high school kids can argue Medicine with Neuro surgeons and then upbraid the surgeon for not respecting their opinion.
There are very real results for hard work and superior results.

Movement
These gross macro movement models do not address;
What to move, in consort with what. Ways to train to connect it, and the result of how that connection itself creates an effect on you and on an uke.
I haven't read anything about hip/lower torso here that comes close to relevant issues that will hold you back or move you forward, with a single thing I would consider truly relevant. There isn't even an adequate discussion of what a hip is and does and why there are some strikingly different ways to move that have been examined and abandoned by Koryu people, and why that is.

The whole does not equal the sum of it's parts
You could give people the exact information of what to move and how and they would still miss the real key to making the effect they are looking for in dealing with an uke with power and aiki in the first place.

The Chinese and Japanese did not have anatomy trains and western medicine but delivered real soft power and understanding. No traditional method I am aware of started like you guys are; with this hunger for anatomy and body part movement. There are more important matters. I give in here and there and try to help people understand with discussions of the body, but it's no wonder that when I do seminars and body workers and yoga people show up, they all know the exact anatomy of what am discussing, yet they are usually the worst people in the room. I had a friend, go off and do Yoga, two years after starting training with me...his power went down hill, all while he stood there telling me about all his internal feelings and body part movement.

It is interesting to me that when being tested by real experts, top dogs in the ICMA, there was a progression of testing and the body parts, came last. Mores the point, while they don't all agree either they have real power not imagined, hug yer neighbor and make him feel validated, power. There is actual worth to what they do.
Last I checked, people reserved their time and money for attending seminars with people who actually know what they're doing. Off the internet, they vote with their feet.
Dan
 
Old 09-21-2011, 10:20 AM   #63
graham christian
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
I had rather not you stay silent...a more concrete motivation would certainly help.

Please do not mistake my respect for other opinions and trying to understand where they originate from with me regarding them as equal or even my own.
I value each and everyone's opinion when delivered with good intent and proper respect.
Perhaps I am simply ignorant and do not know left from right in Aikido.
Perhaps you are simply wise.

Regards.G.
 
Old 09-21-2011, 10:28 AM   #64
DH
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
Well, I think that you can make some assumptions of someones understanding of the common ground shared between all these methods by how they talk about it. Does that mean you're not going to get some clown come along who slings jargon and talks good game? no, not at all, but if that person comes along and is making suggestions about what people should be doing or trying you know, you get up and try what they're talking about. That shared common ground, IMO, makes that possible. As for what they can actually do and who can vouch for them. If doing the above didn't set off anything for you, then you work to get some hands on time with said person and see what they're talking about, regardless if someone else vouches for them. If it's not making sense to you, based on your understanding and experience of that shared common ground, then you gotta get hands on, period. Which you should do any chance you can anyway.

I'm not suggesting online discussion as a replacement for that. You should always go for that option when it's there. I mean hell, I've made 11 hour trips to go see people and feel what they're doing, but doing that ALL the time isn't realistic for even me, much less others.

Again, the type of interaction i'm talking about, goes something like this:

Using this thread as an example, we start sharing our thoughts and things we're doing as it relates to hip.lower torso movement.

Someone pops in and says "nice thread, I've been doing this and feeling this, but when I do this, I feel something different" and we discuss it and hash it out and come to terms with what and why there's a different feeling there. Other people reading that thread may also be at similar points in their process and do the same and feel compelled to jump in as well and share their experiences.

Then Dan comes in and says "I see what you guys are saying, maybe try this and see what you think because in my experience this will get you over whatever hurdle you're discussing" and he gives some example to feel what he's talking about.

So we get up and try it. It may make sense, it may not, some may feel that difference, others may not. For the ones that don't, well, you keep plugging away and putting in some time and you know, you try to get hands on time with Dan or someone with more experience with what he's talking about when you can, because we all know that's ALWAYS the best.

There's nothing antagonistic about that exchange. The only thing it needs is people interested enough and willing to share their thoughts.
I can agree that going to meet people and testing them will help. You should strongly consider that:
1. Meeting someone with power does not mean they can teach or are willing, or will honestly tell you that.
2. That all methods are the same just because someone has power.
3. If they do not have power and you can walk through them I would walk away. If they cannot deliver, what makes you think you will ever be able to.
4. All things being equal even with people with power, there are complexities, some may do things well, but in the end this or that method is not really the best, others may not have developed a certain method to its full extant, but in the end that is actually thee best method for you to train. Others may be using power in a way that will not work in your own chosen venue (Classical weapons demands have all but eliminated one fellows methods).
5. Nothing will substitute for solo work and then hands on time...nothing. Talking is fun, and keeps up enthusiasm, but is all but useless unless you do the work and get hands-on.

Dan
 
Old 09-21-2011, 10:45 AM   #65
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I can agree that going to meet people and testing them will help. You should strongly consider that:
1. Meeting someone with power does not mean they can teach or are willing, or will honestly tell you that.
2. That all methods are the same just because someone has power.
3. If they do not have power and you can walk through them I would walk away. If they cannot deliver, what makes you think you will ever be able to.
4. All things being equal even with people with power, there are complexities, some may do things well, but in the end this or that method is not really the best, others may not have developed a certain method to its full extant, but in the end that is actually thee best method for you to train. Others may be using power in a way that will not work in your own chosen venue (Classical weapons demands have all but eliminated one fellows methods).
5. Nothing will substitute for solo work and then hands on time...nothing. Talking is fun, and keeps up enthusiasm, but is all but useless unless you do the work and get hands-on.

Dan
I agree across the board, especially in regards to doing the work. My ability to talk about it at whatever level I'm at is a direct result of putting in that time.

As for the hands on, for some odd reason it's hard to get people to come to Atlanta. I mean we're no Hawaii down here, but we've got good weather, nice people and no shortage of food and drink. Hell, we even have FISH, big ones... Sure they may not be capable of doing fancy non-fish things, but they're fish all the same and that has to count for something!
 
Old 09-21-2011, 10:59 AM   #66
gregstec
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
I agree across the board, especially in regards to doing the work. My ability to talk about it at whatever level I'm at is a direct result of putting in that time.

As for the hands on, for some odd reason it's hard to get people to come to Atlanta. I mean we're no Hawaii down here, but we've got good weather, nice people and no shortage of food and drink. Hell, we even have FISH, big ones... Sure they may not be capable of doing fancy non-fish things, but they're fish all the same and that has to count for something!
Fish you say! - I think Howard just may be booking his flight as we type

Greg
 
Old 09-21-2011, 11:21 AM   #67
akiy
 
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Hi Dan,

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that nothing replaces hands-on training in budo transmission. If this is what you are saying, I, of course, agree with that. However, this is a discussion forum here. In my mind, simply pointing to hands-on training kind of defeats the purpose of having a discussion.

Similarly, people dismissing someone's thoughts by posting only a disagreement without taking the time to point out the ways in which that person disagrees does not amount to much of a positive contribution to a thread -- and neither does people directing their posts at the poster rather than the topic

I stand by my requests above.

-- Jun

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Old 09-21-2011, 01:12 PM   #68
DH
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
Hi Dan,
If I understand you correctly, you're saying that nothing replaces hands-on training in budo transmission. If this is what you are saying, I, of course, agree with that. However, this is a discussion forum here. In my mind, simply pointing to hands-on training kind of defeats the purpose of having a discussion.

Similarly, people dismissing someone's thoughts by posting only a disagreement without taking the time to point out the ways in which that person disagrees does not amount to much of a positive contribution to a thread -- and neither does people directing their posts at the poster rather than the topic

I stand by my requests above.
Quote:
Hi folks,

Please stay away from directing your posts at the poster rather than the topic being discussed.

If you disagree with a post, please take the time to point out the ways in which you disagree rather than writing, directly or indirectly, that the poster is wrong.

Thank you,

-- Jun
-- Jun
I very much agree with you, Jun. It's was pretty strange to see someone walk into a thread and attack the poster (me) by calling me a liar out of the blue and then not even addressing the topic, but by way of example changing the subject to something unrelated and not contributing to saying why.
It was very weird. Then he vanished.
No matter, I should have simply avoided/ignored it alltogether.

I think this was an attempt to get the thread back on track to the topic:
Quote:
Dan Harden writes:
Movement
These gross macro movement models do not address;
What to move, in consort with what. Ways to train to connect it, and the result of how that connection itself creates an effect on you and on an uke.
I haven't read anything about hip/lower torso here that comes close to relevant issues that will hold you back or move you forward, with a single thing I would consider truly relevant. There isn't even an adequate discussion of what a hip is and does and why there are some strikingly different ways to move that have been examined and abandoned by Koryu people, and why that is.

The whole does not equal the sum of it's parts
You could give people the exact information of what to move and how and they would still miss the real key to making the effect they are looking for in dealing with an uke with power and aiki in the first place.

The Chinese and Japanese did not have anatomy trains and western medicine but delivered real soft power and understanding. No traditional method I am aware of started like you guys are; with this hunger for anatomy and body part movement. There are more important matters. I give in here and there and try to help people understand with discussions of the body, but it's no wonder that when I do seminars and body workers and yoga people show up, they all know the exact anatomy of what am discussing, yet they are usually the worst people in the room. I had a friend, go off and do Yoga, two years after starting training with me...his power went down hill, all while he stood there telling me about all his internal feelings and body part movement.
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:

I can agree that going to meet people and testing them will help. You should strongly consider that:
1. Meeting someone with power does not mean they can teach or are willing, or will honestly tell you that.
2. That all methods are the same just because someone has power.
3. If they do not have power and you can walk through them I would walk away. If they cannot deliver, what makes you think you will ever be able to.
4. All things being equal even with people with power, there are complexities, some may do things well, but in the end this or that method is not really the best, others may not have developed a certain method to its full extant, but in the end that is actually thee best method for you to train. Others may be using power in a way that will not work in your own chosen venue (Classical weapons demands have all but eliminated one fellows methods).

Dan
My own points were that "discussion of movement" is all but impossible on the net. Bearing in mind that I still try to do it and have hundreds of meaningful dialogues recorded here- entirely on topic- on what is being moved, I still recognize the limitations and difficulties. As Budd, Jason, Mat Lorell and others have agreed and are writing me in P.M. I would call that productive discussion.

Difficulties in discussion of correct movement
I am a member of two private forums and a mailing list of those who train with me. While it is easier to discuss these things there-even there- it is nonetheless just as problematic to go into great detail on "how to's." We do however recognize that there has to be an allowance for people being flat out wrong in their approach. We feel it's the only way to meaningfully move forward. We all like and respect each other, but have no issue with being told we are wrong on a host of different issues.

It is easier for us, in that we have all met and trained together, so there is no question going in of our respect toward each other. You have a much tougher job of it in this venue here with so many of us being strangers to each other. And we need to remember that.
That said, I guess I could just say "This is what I do." YMMV.
All the best
Dan
 
Old 09-22-2011, 02:01 AM   #69
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Dan,

Thanks for pointing that out. I agree that opinion brought respectfully does certainly not imply any credibility. I value the sharing of their opinion for sake of discussion of that opinion, be it right or wrong. I think that everybody that shares an opinion does so based on their experience, their frame of reference. It is interesting to understand where their ideas are founded on and whether or not that foundation is any good.
When that foundation is in fact weak, we can talk about it. Off course we are limited by words on a forum, but perhaps someone will take the concept to the tatami and continue his/her search. That would make me very happy.

I understand that some 'lower' levels of discussions are of lesser interest to more advanced people, but to these people the issues at hand is what they struggle with (or they would not have brought it up).
I also agree that going into the details of human anatomy to understand Aikido is way to much western thinking.

An example people might try (probably know)
We do an exercise with the jo. Aite holds the jo with one hand and the other end of the jo is positioned at the center of tori. Tori tries to move forward. This simple technique shows how to move with proper posture. Next step would be katatedori and tori does the same move (without arm muscle).

Anyways many thanks for sharing

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
 
Old 09-22-2011, 08:10 AM   #70
phitruong
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
Off course we are limited by words on a forum, but perhaps someone will take the concept to the tatami and continue his/her search. That would make me very happy.

I understand that some 'lower' levels of discussions are of lesser interest to more advanced people, but to these people the issues at hand is what they struggle with (or they would not have brought it up).
I also agree that going into the details of human anatomy to understand Aikido is way to much western thinking.
i believed that's what Dan has been pointing out. folks go out and meet and exchange information through direct physical experience. i believed Mary mentioned something along the line of "you have the right to your opinion, but don't have the right to facts.". once you cross hand with someone, the fact is either your stuffs work or won't, no more opinion after that. there are the right ways of doing things and there are the wrong ways. in the old time, the wrong ways will get you kill and that was a simple fact. and those who were still hanging around teaching stuffs usually did the right things.

The eastern folks also spent lots of time discussing the details of human anatomy too, i.e. it's not a western thing.
 
Old 09-22-2011, 05:12 PM   #71
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Josh Philipson wrote: View Post
I agree. That is such an abstraction such that it ceases to be useful in any way. If you're going to argue your 'mission statement' please indicate how it has lead to a progression of hip/lower torso movement relevant to the thread.
Fair enough. Sorry, I had a sudden attack of work.

All structures are weakest in torsion -- and thus the most effective destructive action on any structure uses this principle. Torsion creates a complex shear stress in the body -- illustrated by the spheres and showing the component parts along with the actual torsional shear in the overlaid spirals. Those are the diagonal relationships as I perceive the opposite side upper lower applications that have been described, and as I employ them to better improve my own and other's training.

The sphere is simply a representative model of the whole body (if one has learned to integrate it) with discontinuities (poles) at the earth and the point of connection to the partner, respectively. It can also represent any portion of a body that has terminal discontinuities (the poles of the sphere) such as a limb segment with its two two end joints.

The places where the spirals cross are the points where the stress on one spiral can most efficiently be compensated by shifting it to the other spiral without changing the spatial dimension of the stress spiral being unloaded. These, cross-over points, not coincidentally, coincide with the upper, middle and lower dantien, or if you prefer -- the head, upper cross, and the pelvic girdle, and present the areas of greatest sensitivity to these actions, with the lower dantien being the most powerful, the upper cross second, and the head last.

Thus, you take a straight-line compression (push, for example) and convert it, shifting it at the dantien into a load in torsion, and relieving the load through stretching on the coordinate tension spiral axis, and NOT by resisting or returning push for push along the direct line of engagement. Hold that push steady in a loaded condition and then relieve it by stretching (developing tension) up and down along the coordinate tension spiral, at right angles, more or less, to the compression spiral.

If the attacker has engaged a push, the shears form a stress field that alters the attacker's structure as well through that connection. It is like untwisting the joint of a twisted balloon-animal, so that the two connected spheres become one sphere -- making his body steadily conform to that same spiral stress profile as well. Thus, as your structure progressively stabilizes, the attacker's structure progressively destabilizes as his push evaporates -- i.e. kuzushi, and then there is only one structure composed of the both of you -- and you in command of it.

The other thing is the Lissajous curve. The dynamics of aikido follow that profile for reasons tightly related to the stress profiles.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 09-22-2011 at 05:20 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 09-22-2011, 05:50 PM   #72
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

erick, nobody understands you.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
 
Old 09-22-2011, 06:10 PM   #73
Janet Rosen
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
erick, nobody understands you.
I'm so glad it's not just me... Erick, I can't dispute the veracity of ANYthing you post....nor am I in a position to tell you it hasn't helped your aikido...but the diagrams and the words you use to explain them are technical jargon from a field I've never studied and might as well be in some ancient codex. I'm glad they work for you.

Janet Rosen
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Old 09-22-2011, 07:12 PM   #74
DH
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
I'm so glad it's not just me...
1. Erick, I can't dispute the veracity of ANYthing you post....
2 I am not in a position to tell you it hasn't helped your aikido...
3. The diagrams and the words you use to explain them are technical jargon from a field I've never studied and might as well be in some ancient codex
4. I'm glad they work for you.
Ahhhhh..
I finally get it...listen to this kiddo

Rule #1 You cannot say someone is wrong.
Rule #2 You cannot imply they are wrong.
Rule #3 You can only discuss the nature of the topic with them.

So how could you follow those rules and also make a plan to continually blow up discussions of IP/aiki and get away with it ....by the rules... without appearing disingenuous and leave no one an opportunity to challenge the credibility of whatever it is you want to say?


1. Interject yourself into discussions, present models and narratives (that no human understands) whenever the subject of internal power comes up
2. Tell the people teaching IP/aiki on Aikiweb that you are in fact doing what they do and you know what they know. You yourself don't say they are right or wrong, but it places the onus on them to say you are-which they are not allowed to do.
3. Tell them they can't even understand what they themselves do but it is in the model-so you must discuss the model. Which is impossoble to do.
See where this is going? Brilliant!

What happens?
4. You become immune from critique since no one can follow Juns rules and discuss your model on its merits-because it cannot be understood to have any relation to what it is we are talking about or we do.
5. You are free to blow up every thread at will-hoping for those people to leave. Or until someone sees through the ruse and outs you.
Makes sense?
Get it?
We are so dumb. I never saw that before. Sounds like something a good lawyer could dream up. It's brilliant.
Now, bear in mind I am not saying anyone is doing this, but wouldn't it be brilliant?

Dan

Last edited by DH : 09-22-2011 at 07:27 PM.
 
Old 09-22-2011, 07:15 PM   #75
Walker
 
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Not brilliant. Just troll creation via natural selection.

-Doug Walker
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