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Old 09-19-2011, 07:09 AM   #26
Eric in Denver
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post

That makes sense...and I doubt I asked with a good question. I probably asked in a way that suggested simply doing seiza will give you "internals" while I was intending to simply ask how it could relate. I have had a bad habit of tossing out too many sideways thoughts, sometimes muddling the actual questions; too much of a shotgun approach to getting answers, I think. That's why i really like those folks who can say so much in so few words.
...oh is this thing still on!?
G'night folks.
Matthew, sorry, didn't mean to make the implication that what you said above was what you implied.
 
Old 09-19-2011, 07:44 AM   #27
gregstec
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Okay, fine, here's how you really move correctly to develop internal strength:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spAGx...eature=related
I just got to get me a pair of those aiki boots he is wearing

Greg
 
Old 09-19-2011, 09:50 AM   #28
Patrick Hutchinson
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Dan actually showed up in an identical outfit last Saturday (he looked adorable), and is suggesting we all adopt it.
The only problem is that you have to lug around a telephone booth on your back (to change in), and geeky glasses.
 
Old 09-19-2011, 09:50 AM   #29
Eric in Denver
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
I just got to get me a pair of those aiki boots he is wearing

Greg
If that is the secret, then I am all in.
 
Old 09-19-2011, 10:15 AM   #30
DH
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
1. From the perspective of hip/lower torso movement, you first have to relax the upper part of your body enough that the lower part is taking the full load.

2. While doing this you are also training to connect your insides so that when you push your foot from one side of the body you can reflect that power out the opposite side hand (or same side hand, or head, or elbow - ie. it's all connected and related), while remaining relaxed (important).

3. Then you have to work like hell to condition the body to be better at these things. It's hard work, tiring work . . a hint is that you should be building godlike strength in your legs and middle.

4. All the while doing "intention" type of work to mentally direct how your increasingly connected body manages the primary forces acting on it (ground pushing you up, gravity pulling you down).

5. The body basically either opens or closes as a single unit, if you're talking about whole-body-power. Funakogi is a good example of this, as is suburi - if you know what to practice, have some development to build from and are using it is a training exercise for building on the right kinds of strength and connection.

Then there's levels of development - different things people focus on, etc. But the stuff above is the basics.
Hi Budd
I basically agree with you on this. A couple of points:
#2. If you think that there is no difference between those two modes of movement that; it's all connected.... well then, I think I could show you the difference in about ten seconds, and you'd end up agreeing with me!
#5. True that the body basically opens and closes but it is more complex than that.
a. It is not all open or all close ...all the time.
b. There are relations of parts-one to another that can make cutting with power by closing...or opening. Stabbing with a spear by closing or opening. There are reasons it can and should be different.
c. And you left out the very common moving from the hips in three axis as opposed to center line moving from the waist.

Power is all the same
I am well aware of some teachers talking points that narrow the overall discussion down to their own personal views/ limitations/ understanding. These other methods produce power, but they are not all the same. These things are provable across platforms- most importantly with weapons. Anyone who thinks they are all the same is just simply ignorant of all the aspects to the issue. There is a reason more and more Koryu people shy away from certain methods and stay with ones that are consistent within their modalities.

Your #2. I am not surprised to continue to read that people assume they are the same. I will mention- that to my knowledge and review- no one else but me has ever even mentioned that particular mode of movement of utilizing opposite sides and upper lower as opposed to same side movement on the modern forums, much less explained the reasons it works or fails. Interestingly, that is also a debating point between some ICMA systems and JMA systems modes of movement.
All the best
Dan

Last edited by DH : 09-19-2011 at 10:24 AM.
 
Old 09-19-2011, 11:04 AM   #31
HL1978
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
#5. True that the body basically opens and closes but it is more complex than that.
a. It is not all open or all close ...all the time.
b. There are relations of parts-one to another that can make cutting with power by closing...or opening. Stabbing with a spear by closing or opening. There are reasons it can and should be different.
c. And you left out the very common moving from the hips in three axis as opposed to center line moving from the waist.
Dan, I assume you mean the front closing and back opening, or like the front pulling down and back pushing up?

thanks,

hunter
 
Old 09-19-2011, 11:29 AM   #32
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
...that particular mode of movement of utilizing opposite sides and upper lower as opposed to same side movement...
Hi Dan,
are you talking about a tendancy for people to always keep same side hand and foot forward? Does this relate more to any particular phase of the engagement? From what little I've observed I can see how ai hanmi/gyaku hanmi always seem to follow the rule of same foot as hand forward (i.e. same side forward for upper and lower), but I know I've practiced techniques which transitioned into what I've heard described as, "cross-lateral," before the throw is happens.
I'd really appreciate anything you have to offer on this...of course, as it relates specifically to the hips and hara.
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 09-19-2011, 02:04 PM   #33
DH
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Are you talking about a tendancy for people to always keep same side hand and foot forward?
No, not at all.
Quote:
Does this relate more to any particular phase of the engagement
?
Nope.
Quote:
I'd really appreciate anything you have to offer on this...of course, as it relates specifically to the hips and hara.
Why bother.
Been there, done that.. no thanks. What is the real point in debating physical understanding with people who (while they can't do anything meaningful in person), love to debate things they are completely incapable of, then get upset when you told them the truth all along. It's always been that way in budo, right. So you have some competent people debating people who are nothing more than good writers, with a new venue...the internet.
I know a better way. Meet, compare and be nice to each other. Debate it, while you're trying to remain vertical in front of me. Then we will both know just who actually knew what they were talking about all along and no one is upset. Then, like before, we will laugh, have fun to boot and talk about how much we both still suck!
Seems a better way to "debate" physical movement is in person.


Here's is quote for you from 1925
Aiki and it mysteries can never be encompassed by the brush or by mouth. Do not rely on words to grasp it. Attain enlightenment through practice..... Ueshiba M.

Another more succinct one if from Taiji
I know them, but they do not know me...
Read as "I feel, sense and control their centers
But they cannot find mine."
How do you successfully debate that...in writing? Imagine those two guys (real experts) trying to debate with some of the folks on the internet.
All the best
Dan

Last edited by DH : 09-19-2011 at 02:15 PM.
 
Old 09-19-2011, 03:43 PM   #34
DH
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
Dan, I assume you mean the front closing and back opening, or like the front pulling down and back pushing up?

thanks,

hunter
Well that is only part of a more complex system of what bows and whether you think that bowing-out means power out and bowing-in means drawing in...all the time. For that matter a real concern is what moves with what and when and that all things move together. That in and of itself, can have a very profound affect on people trying to screw with your center.
You can train to bow all-in and all-out and load to release but it's a pretty dumb thing to do in fighting as CXW, CY, LCD, LCG, CZW, LDX have highlighted. CXW was pretty clear in an interview that you can train that way but no one would ever do that in a fight as the opponent can feel it coming. Issuing is more sophisticated than those simple releases and cutting and moving with Japanese weapons that way is retarded...demonstrably so.
You might want to explore what Ueshiba meant by one side spiraling in while the other spirals out in relation to shun and ni and think of opening/closing and bowing in that paradigm, why it is so effective, and why he and Takeda were called genius's with the sword. It good to do exercises, but you'd better know the difference between working some things and then how to actually use them in martial arts. What you can get away with in one venue does not vet the use in another. I think some people have a very innocent and naive idea of what actually works.
Cheers
Dan
 
Old 09-19-2011, 05:30 PM   #35
Howard Popkin
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
No, not at all.
?
Nope.

Why bother.
Been there, done that.. no thanks. What is the real point in debating physical understanding with people who (while they can't do anything meaningful in person), love to debate things they are completely incapable of, then get upset when you told them the truth all along. It's always been that way in budo, right. So you have some competent people debating people who are nothing more than good writers, with a new venue...the internet.
I know a better way. Meet, compare and be nice to each other. Debate it, while you're trying to remain vertical in front of me. Then we will both know just who actually knew what they were talking about all along and no one is upset. Then, like before, we will laugh, have fun to boot and talk about how much we both still suck!
Seems a better way to "debate" physical movement is in person.

Here's is quote for you from 1925
Aiki and it mysteries can never be encompassed by the brush or by mouth. Do not rely on words to grasp it. Attain enlightenment through practice..... Ueshiba M.

Another more succinct one if from Taiji
I know them, but they do not know me...
Read as "I feel, sense and control their centers
But they cannot find mine."
How do you successfully debate that...in writing? Imagine those two guys (real experts) trying to debate with some of the folks on the internet.
All the best
Dan
Hey Dan,


Howard Popkin
www.pbjjc.com
 
Old 09-19-2011, 06:22 PM   #36
chillzATL
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Why bother.
why? because YOU brought it up...

Which led to this gem...

Quote:
been there, done that.. no thanks. What is the real point in debating physical understanding with people who (while they can't do anything meaningful in person), love to debate things they are completely incapable of, then get upset when you told them the truth all along. It's always been that way in budo, right. So you have some competent people debating people who are nothing more than good writers, with a new venue...the internet.
I know a better way. Meet, compare and be nice to each other. Debate it, while you're trying to remain vertical in front of me. Then we will both know just who actually knew what they were talking about all along and no one is upset. Then, like before, we will laugh, have fun to boot and talk about how much we both still suck!
Seems a better way to "debate" physical movement is in person.
Have a bad day today Dan? Mike hasn't been involved in this discussion, so you can put your internet claws away. We were having a civil discussion here, not an arguement. Nobody was challenging anyone or telling them they don't get it or are wrong. If you don't want to further discuss the ideas that YOU brought into the thread, then just say so. You're not going to hurt anyones feelings... Just don't go hiding your unwillingness to do so behind this whole "who's going to debate me" schtick. That tone didn't exist in the thread before you brought it with you.

Quote:
Another more succinct one if from Taiji
I know them, but they do not know me...
Read as "I feel, sense and control their centers
But they cannot find mine."
How do you successfully debate that...in writing? Imagine those two guys (real experts) trying to debate with some of the folks on the internet.
All the best
Dan
Debate, especially the way you use it, has an unsavory tone to it. They could definitely discuss it Dan...
 
Old 09-19-2011, 06:57 PM   #37
DH
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
Have a bad day today Dan? Mike hasn't been involved in this discussion, so you can put your internet claws away. We were having a civil discussion here, not an arguement. Nobody was challenging anyone or telling them they don't get it or are wrong. If you don't want to further discuss the ideas that YOU brought into the thread, then just say so. You're not going to hurt anyones feelings... Just don't go hiding your unwillingness to do so behind this whole "who's going to debate me" schtick. That tone didn't exist in the thread before you brought it with you.
Well, that was an interesting way to aproach this.
The ideas, when offered, pretty much run contrary to the norm of most ideas of movement in budo. It has been pretty much proved that since the dawning of the internet that this has led to debate. Sometimes heated debate, from those who do not understand the tenets of this work. Oddly, that never happens in person.
Which led to this....
Quote:
What is the real point in debating physical understanding with people who (while they can't do anything meaningful in person), love to debate things they are completely incapable of, then get upset when you told them the truth all along. It's always been that way in budo, right. So you have some competent people debating people who are nothing more than good writers, with a new venue...the internet.
I know a better way. Meet, compare and be nice to each other. Debate it, while you're trying to remain vertical in front of me. Then we will both know just who actually knew what they were talking about all along and no one is upset. Then, like before, we will laugh, have fun to boot and talk about how much we both still suck!
Seems a better way to "debate" physical movement is in person.
Can you point to number of threads where this type of material has been debated from discussions between those with an internal approach to movement with those from the external arts, where everyone walks away agreeing?

I think my points were both salient and clear; debating it has not been successful on the net. Awareness of it through hands on work is the best vehicle, and curiously it ends debates and it makes friends.

Quote:
Debate, especially the way you use it, has an unsavory tone to it. They could definitely discuss it, Dan...
Hmmm....That was in reference to me talking about real experts showing up to debate your average external guy on the internet and why it would not be productive without prior vetting. And also why I said it was a waste to debate/ argue rather than just state things. You cannot argue this on its merits. The experts would not....waste much time discussing it before they walked away.

Anyway, you don't have my experiences nor have you experienced the debate/ the fall out / and the best methods for true progress in ending them and making friends...from my end.
Anyway, with the current discussion/debate, I'll leave you to your own devices. Sorry for butting in.
Dan
 
Old 09-19-2011, 07:38 PM   #38
Budd
 
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Budd
I basically agree with you on this. A couple of points:
#2. If you think that there is no difference between those two modes of movement that; it's all connected.... well then, I think I could show you the difference in about ten seconds, and you'd end up agreeing with me!
#5. True that the body basically opens and closes but it is more complex than that.
a. It is not all open or all close ...all the time.
b. There are relations of parts-one to another that can make cutting with power by closing...or opening. Stabbing with a spear by closing or opening. There are reasons it can and should be different.
c. And you left out the very common moving from the hips in three axis as opposed to center line moving from the waist.
Hi Dan,

I think you're extrapolating my words a bit too far. I'm talking about basic connection, not even going into movement at this point - I don't think that's too useful from an internal strength perspective until you've built up the basics a bit - in terms of my #2 anyways. Same deal with my #5 . . I'm not describing all the permutations in application, just the fundamental open/close bit as a training device to get people going. But I'm game to be shown and if I agree I'll def say so.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Power is all the same
I am well aware of some teachers talking points that narrow the overall discussion down to their own personal views/ limitations/ understanding. These other methods produce power, but they are not all the same. These things are provable across platforms- most importantly with weapons. Anyone who thinks they are all the same is just simply ignorant of all the aspects to the issue. There is a reason more and more Koryu people shy away from certain methods and stay with ones that are consistent within their modalities.

Your #2. I am not surprised to continue to read that people assume they are the same. I will mention- that to my knowledge and review- no one else but me has ever even mentioned that particular mode of movement of utilizing opposite sides and upper lower as opposed to same side movement on the modern forums, much less explained the reasons it works or fails. Interestingly, that is also a debating point between some ICMA systems and JMA systems modes of movement.
All the best
Dan
Like I said, I think you're misconstruing some things and adding your own assumptions about what I said, but to your later point, it makes more sense to wait until we meet up in person to see what we mean.

Would definitely be interested in vetting some more about the ICMA versus JMA systems modes of movement - why is it different, where are the differences, etc. But I don't know that the internet is the best spot for it.

Regards,

Budd
 
Old 09-19-2011, 08:13 PM   #39
chillzATL
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well, that was an interesting way to aproach this.
The ideas, when offered, pretty much run contrary to the norm of most ideas of movement in budo. It has been pretty much proved that since the dawning of the internet that this has led to debate. Sometimes heated debate, from those who do not understand the tenets of this work. Oddly, that never happens in person.
Which led to this....

Can you point to number of threads where this type of material has been debated from discussions between those with an internal approach to movement with those from the external arts, where everyone walks away agreeing?

I think my points were both salient and clear; debating it has not been successful on the net. Awareness of it through hands on work is the best vehicle, and curiously it ends debates and it makes friends.

Hmmm....That was in reference to me talking about real experts showing up to debate your average external guy on the internet and why it would not be productive without prior vetting. And also why I said it was a waste to debate/ argue rather than just state things. You cannot argue this on its merits. The experts would not....waste much time discussing it before they walked away.

Anyway, you don't have my experiences nor have you experienced the debate/ the fall out / and the best methods for true progress in ending them and making friends...from my end.
Anyway, with the current discussion/debate, I'll leave you to your own devices. Sorry for butting in.
Dan
I agree with more of what you said than I disagree. I've read practically all of the history on the subject here and lived the battles through it. The real extent of the "debates", lets call them arguements, have been people who don't know beans about IS telling mostly you and mike, that the stuff you're talking about is BS. For the most part, at least here, we're kind if through the thick of that. There are still doubters, but by and large there a big community of people who are both receptive and in some form or another, working on this stuff.

The other "debates" are mostly just you and Mike. Sometimes people who have taken a side wander in, but it's mostly you and Mike who can't talk to each other, which we can leave at that.

The rest of us, there's no reason we can't have those discussions now. Especially considering the number of people who are doing this stuff these days and should be getting a feel for it on a level that they can talk about it and want too. I think people should want to talk about it, it helps a lot IMO, especially for people who don't have the luxury of regular group meetups..The vocabulary for what everyone is doing is essentially the same. Once you've got a foot in the door it's not hard to understand, sometimes maybe by playing around with it, what the other guy is doing. IMO there is no right or wrong. If someone is doing something and it's working for them, but maybe it's just not what I want to do, cool. There's nothing that says we have to argue over it. Didn't Ueshiba award 10th dan to a Noh dancer? I doubt it was because he thought the dancer could kick ass. It was likely an appreciation of the shared vocabulary they had for using their bodies. Sagawa and Ueshiba didn't throw down when they met, though obviously not doing exactly the same things. We've had a few threads of late that suggest it is more than possible. Some say why, I say... WHY NOT?

Sorry if my post came off a little hot. HUGS.

Last edited by chillzATL : 09-19-2011 at 08:16 PM.
 
Old 09-20-2011, 02:06 AM   #40
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

You cannot make a person 'see' it your way, be it right or wrong.
There is no good or bad, only different.

Find opportunities to meet people and show what you do. Then they can decide for themselves if that is what they are looking for, or may have an interest in. In discussions relate to aspects (training, teaching, philosophical) you think they may have a problem with in their current style. That would make people wonder, perhaps build an interest.

So back on topic: would the difference between #2 and #3 not be focus? I have already made the comparision with mae ukemi. That had overlap but was not quite it.
What would need to change to arrive at #3?

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
 
Old 09-20-2011, 08:00 AM   #41
DH
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
You cannot make a person 'see' it your way, be it right or wrong.
There is no good or bad, only different.
With certain target goals in mind, this is simply not true. Demonstrably so. Further, while traveling about feeling the efforts of people who are training with various internal coaches; both amateurs and experts, there is a wide disparity with results. It appears the amateurs teach better, and it is obvious not all of them are teaching the same things. The rest can be the result of the laziness or intelligence of the student.
But I would NEVER say there is no good or bad. Give someone a bad compass and tell them to travel a thousand miles and ask them about good or bad.
Time and distance can be a killer to the best efforts.
Now add bad information at the outset.
Dan
 
Old 09-20-2011, 08:46 AM   #42
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
No, not at all.
?
Nope.
Ok wrong track then, thank you. I wasn't trying to debate you, just add to my understanding of the conceptual framework you were describing. I recently read a quote of O Sensei describing his "aiki...do" as including an intellectual componant and I see this forum as applying directly to that (what else can we accomplish here? Certainly not what anything might feel like...doing or receiving). I've learned a lot of ways on how not to make the proverbial "lightbulb" along with some interesting descriptions of how different facets work. Hell, it even promted me to try and go see what I gathered to be a pretty good example of one.

Quote:
What is the real point in debating physical understanding with people who (while they can't do anything meaningful in person), love to debate things they are completely incapable of, then get upset when you told them the truth all along. It's always been that way in budo, right. So you have some competent people debating people who are nothing more than good writers, with a new venue...the internet.
That would be frustrating. Fortunately, of the things I don't know I don't know, knowing I suck aint one. You told me so in person...although, I was pretty sure of it already. Hopefully I'm a good enough writer to make that clear.
I really was just trying to engage the conversation, but it seems a bit above my pay-grade at the moment.
...and, yes, the internet is a little to convenient sometimes.
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 09-20-2011, 11:30 AM   #43
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

So, while I know this thread has been initially about hip-rotation and movement - I think it's turning into a useful debate on what kinds of discussions around "this stuff" are useful online versus what level of stuff has to be felt and vetted in person.

I would posit that for online purposes - there's a level of discussion you can have regarding one's "take", how it ties to traditional views of the subject, where you've made innovations, etc. Just in terms of internal strength. Even in that topic, I look at things from a baseline introduction, then conditioning, then beginning stages of application, since there's so much upfront work to do to rewire the body.

Where I expect some big disagreements, potentially, would be where you integrate the conditioning and skill building aspects of IS into applications, etc. I don't think disagreements in that subject area need to be mutually exclusive with the foundational "here's how it works" discussions. But there should be something of a sequential "Here's how it works at step 1 foundationally, once you achieve X checkpoint of skill/conditioning, you're ready to move into step 2, and so on . ."

But is the internet the right place to have that discussion past even checkpoint 1? I have my doubts. The great thing about the internet for me has been to get some seed info to see about who I can then meet up with in person. So far all have been positive experiences, regardless of my perceptions of their ability, style, system, etc.

But I'm also interested in seeing how far we can push the "how's it work" discussion, with intended follow-ups in person to compare notes, etc. The built in assumption is that people will be bringing their own agendas, assumptions, beliefs and that challenging them/changing them won't necessarily be the outcome - nor should it be, if we're looking at the skillset as "how's it work", "how's it trained", "how's it used/applied"? People will have the choice to buy into the info, then line that up against what they've gotten elsewhere.

Ultimately, words will only get you so far, what you are "shown" will also only get you so far . . you have to take the information in, filter it, practice it like a maniac and make sure the results are in line with your goals/expectations. Comes down to choices, commitments and taking responsibility for your progress.

YMMV
 
Old 09-20-2011, 12:03 PM   #44
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Lightbulb Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

I have yet again been reminded that even the most simplistic terms can be misleading.

A couple of weeks ago, I was working with someone hands-on, and she said:

"Have you noticed that you keep your lower abdomin kind of tight and maintain a constant posterior tilt to your pelvis?"

To which I replied, "duhhh" because I couldn't tell. it felt perfectly reasonable to me.

So, after a few manipulations, I felt what it's like to really move the lowest part of my abdomin downward while inhalin and simultaneously slightly engagin my extensors. Suddenly my center of gravity moved forward and down ... The kinesthetic sensation was that my hips were down around my knees

Without unnecessary tension pulling my spine back and downward, I could feel the upward push of the bone chain from the balls of each toe going up my spine and to my skull. Quite an odd thing to fel taller and lower at the same time.

Now I have to re-think all of these issues, like where is my dantien, and what am I turning when ... and could I have been using wrong alignment for aikido-taiji, etc all of these years?

I'm pretty sure I can feel L5 turning in the pelvic cradle when I turn my waist now. very creepy sensation.

who'd'of thunk it.

Joel
 
Old 09-20-2011, 12:39 PM   #45
chillzATL
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
So, while I know this thread has been initially about hip-rotation and movement - I think it's turning into a useful debate on what kinds of discussions around "this stuff" are useful online versus what level of stuff has to be felt and vetted in person.

I would posit that for online purposes - there's a level of discussion you can have regarding one's "take", how it ties to traditional views of the subject, where you've made innovations, etc. Just in terms of internal strength. Even in that topic, I look at things from a baseline introduction, then conditioning, then beginning stages of application, since there's so much upfront work to do to rewire the body.

Where I expect some big disagreements, potentially, would be where you integrate the conditioning and skill building aspects of IS into applications, etc. I don't think disagreements in that subject area need to be mutually exclusive with the foundational "here's how it works" discussions. But there should be something of a sequential "Here's how it works at step 1 foundationally, once you achieve X checkpoint of skill/conditioning, you're ready to move into step 2, and so on . ."

But is the internet the right place to have that discussion past even checkpoint 1? I have my doubts. The great thing about the internet for me has been to get some seed info to see about who I can then meet up with in person. So far all have been positive experiences, regardless of my perceptions of their ability, style, system, etc.

But I'm also interested in seeing how far we can push the "how's it work" discussion, with intended follow-ups in person to compare notes, etc. The built in assumption is that people will be bringing their own agendas, assumptions, beliefs and that challenging them/changing them won't necessarily be the outcome - nor should it be, if we're looking at the skillset as "how's it work", "how's it trained", "how's it used/applied"? People will have the choice to buy into the info, then line that up against what they've gotten elsewhere.

Ultimately, words will only get you so far, what you are "shown" will also only get you so far . . you have to take the information in, filter it, practice it like a maniac and make sure the results are in line with your goals/expectations. Comes down to choices, commitments and taking responsibility for your progress.

YMMV
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Budd.

When I derailed the thread, the point I was trying to make was that I believe these skills, what we're doing to train them and our thoughts and ideas about them can be shared and discussed in a civil way. Whether you're doing what I"m doing or whether you're goals for it are the same as mine isn't really important. We can focus on the common ground, of which there are acres, and accept that not every routine or exercise or way of thinking about things fits everyone else. There are a lot of people out there who have been to a seminar or two and maybe don't have the luxury of regular groups to meet up with and such, but they're still doing things they were shown and are still struggling to come to a better understanding. There's no reason those people can't read a discussion about these skills and apply another persons perspective to what they're doing to increase their understanding. That stuff happens... everywhere, even on the internet, without becoming arguements. Where the arguements start is when people get so hyper focused in believing that what they're doing is the best way, the most powerful way, the only way and simply can't put that down long enough to appreciate the common ground that exists. I mean that type of interaction, exchange and acceptance sounds to me to be exactly what Ueshiba had in mind for his aiki-do. I believe that he also suggested that it is the ego that ruins it, to which I agree.

If you go into a gym, you'll find all sorts of people working out. They all have different motivations, different methods and different goals, but you don't see fights breaking out because the guy who wants to become as big and strong as possible is doing something different from the guy who just wants to put on some muscle and look better in his mankini. No, those guys could find common ground and discuss things about their approaches that each might find benefit in, regardless of the fact that they have completely different goals. It should be no different here. You could read my description of what I'm doing and my thoughts about it and offer suggestions "maybe give this a try" or "see how this feels". I get up and try it, maybe it makes sense, maybe it doesn't, maybe I feel it and say "damn, that's hot!" or maybe I say "yah, I see what you're saying, but I'm not sold just yet". That's discussion and that's something people can benefit from. It's no replacement for hands on time, but it's certainly a way for improving our thought processes about what we're doing which absolutely helps, especially when you factor in the different goals we all have.

Thanks again.
 
Old 09-20-2011, 12:46 PM   #46
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Joel Zimba wrote: View Post
I have yet again been reminded that even the most simplistic terms can be misleading.

A couple of weeks ago, I was working with someone hands-on, and she said:

"Have you noticed that you keep your lower abdomin kind of tight and maintain a constant posterior tilt to your pelvis?"

To which I replied, "duhhh" because I couldn't tell. it felt perfectly reasonable to me.

So, after a few manipulations, I felt what it's like to really move the lowest part of my abdomin downward while inhalin and simultaneously slightly engagin my extensors. Suddenly my center of gravity moved forward and down ... The kinesthetic sensation was that my hips were down around my knees

Without unnecessary tension pulling my spine back and downward, I could feel the upward push of the bone chain from the balls of each toe going up my spine and to my skull. Quite an odd thing to fel taller and lower at the same time.

Now I have to re-think all of these issues, like where is my dantien, and what am I turning when ... and could I have been using wrong alignment for aikido-taiji, etc all of these years?

I'm pretty sure I can feel L5 turning in the pelvic cradle when I turn my waist now. very creepy sensation.

who'd'of thunk it.

Joel
very nice, good description too! Were you physically corrected to help remove the tension or did you just work it out yourself?
 
Old 09-20-2011, 01:43 PM   #47
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
With certain target goals in mind, this is simply not true. Demonstrably so. Further, while traveling about feeling the efforts of people who are training with various internal coaches; both amateurs and experts, there is a wide disparity with results. It appears the amateurs teach better, and it is obvious not all of them are teaching the same things. The rest can be the result of the laziness or intelligence of the student.
But I would NEVER say there is no good or bad. Give someone a bad compass and tell them to travel a thousand miles and ask them about good or bad.
Time and distance can be a killer to the best efforts.
Now add bad information at the outset.
Dan
Thanks for your comment. I see your point.
Would you not agree that the compass only proves good or bad, after the person experienced it himself/herself? You can try to convince the other person that your compass is right, but someone else can also offer a compass with the same pitch. How can the user of the compass know which is better (i.e good or bad)? On what ground would one decide which compass to use?
Agreed that once you know you got your bearing. But then there is no question anymore either, is there?

(a bit off topic: I think many believe that what they are doing is correct, because they have been taught that way. It takes effort to search beyond what you know, what you have been taught and become a master and judge for yourself what is good. Now while I know this, I am not saying I am able to, far from. I am struggling day to day to find my way. )

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
 
Old 09-20-2011, 02:15 PM   #48
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Budd ...
to my knowledge and review- no one else but me has ever even mentioned that particular mode of movement of utilizing opposite sides and upper lower as opposed to same side movement on the modern forums, much less explained the reasons it works or fails.
All the best
Dan
Ahem .... That is not entirely true.

It is explained in understanding these depictions of the mechanics involved. Whether this manner of explanations works for everyone or not -- it is explained by them.

The first one shows the static or stress relations that drive the dynamic in the diagonal spirals -- opposite side upper/lower.



The second shows the dynamic relation of the motions following those stress paths:



Now back to your regular programming. Move along. Nothing to see here. Enjoy your training.


Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 09-20-2011, 02:50 PM   #49
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Ahem .... That is not entirely true.

It is explained in understanding these depictions of the mechanics involved. Whether this manner of explanations works for everyone or not -- it is explained by them.

The first one shows the static or stress relations that drive the dynamic in the diagonal spirals -- opposite side upper/lower.



The second shows the dynamic relation of the motions following those stress paths:



Now back to your regular programming. Move along. Nothing to see here. Enjoy your training.

Erick, seems like you have it all figured out. Plan to do any seminars soon? I would love to go where you are at and train with you.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
 
Old 09-20-2011, 03:12 PM   #50
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Progression of Hip/Lower torso movement

I agree. That is such an abstraction such that it ceases to be useful in any way. If you're going to argue your 'mission statement' please indicate how it has lead to a progression of hip/lower torso movement relevant to the thread.
 

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