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Old 09-17-2011, 01:58 PM   #26
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Tohei's resignation letter to the aikikai

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
There was another letter too - written in response. I wonder if that one's coming down the line...
Editor says:
September 15, 2011 at 5:33 pm
I do have the rebuttal, but no intention to publish it in the foreseeable future. It would reopen too many wounds!


http://blog.aikidojournal.com/2011/0...#comment-19048

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Old 09-17-2011, 03:27 PM   #27
Chris Li
 
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Re: Tohei's resignation letter to the aikikai

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Editor says:
September 15, 2011 at 5:33 pm
I do have the rebuttal, but no intention to publish it in the foreseeable future. It would reopen too many wounds!


http://blog.aikidojournal.com/2011/0...#comment-19048
Unlike Tohei's letter? I won't even mention what happened in Hawaii when Tohei made the announcement here - but there was plenty of monkey business all around.

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-17-2011, 08:24 PM   #28
Keith Larman
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Re: Tohei's resignation letter to the aikikai

Seems dysfunctional families are the same the world over...

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Old 09-17-2011, 10:01 PM   #29
Autrelle Holland
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Re: Tohei's resignation letter to the aikikai

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Unlike Tohei's letter? I won't even mention what happened in Hawaii when Tohei made the announcement here - but there was plenty of monkey business all around.

Best,

Chris
I'm curious. Would you consider PMing me if I swear secrecy?
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Old 09-17-2011, 10:10 PM   #30
Autrelle Holland
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Re: Tohei's resignation letter to the aikikai

http://www.aikidosphere.com/articles...aikido_pt2.php
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Old 09-18-2011, 11:36 AM   #31
Autrelle Holland
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Re: Tohei's resignation letter to the aikikai

So no one is going to say it out loud?
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Old 09-18-2011, 04:02 PM   #32
gregstec
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Re: Tohei's resignation letter to the aikikai

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Autrelle Holland wrote: View Post
So no one is going to say it out loud?
No, we are all waiting for you to be the first - whatever 'it' is, that is.

Greg
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Old 09-18-2011, 09:32 PM   #33
David Yap
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Re: Tohei's resignation letter to the aikikai

"Q. I guess that was a difficult time when Koichi Tohei left.

Yamada sensei: Yes. It was a big split. Some of the Japanese instructors went with him. Mostly the older former Tohei Sensei direct students from his hometown. Toyoda was one of them who split. Also this guy Shuji Maruyama. He was in Cleveland at first. He'd been hired by some martial arts school there. And then later he moved to Philadelphia. He went to Tohei, which was good for me and Kanai. He was a pain in the neck. (laughter)

In a way I hated to see the split happen because I didn't know how or exactly why Koichi Tohei changed his mind about the Aikikai. But ... he was a good leader. He had charisma. He was strong, positive. He always said everything straight. He was very nice, an easy boss. In a way I hated to see it happen but in another way it was a positive change. The Aikido became clearer, the aspect of technique itself. It's much clearer what were teaching now. You know, Tohei Sensei's stuff ... unbendable arm, ki, ki, ki ... too much philosophy, not enough basic technique. So, in a way it's good it happened. In a way it was good what happened with Saotome too. The people who went with him ... it cleaned up our house, in a way."


The last sentence, who was he referring to by "him"? Tohei or Saotome?
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Old 09-18-2011, 09:37 PM   #34
Chris Li
 
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Re: Tohei's resignation letter to the aikikai

Quote:
David Yap wrote: View Post
"Q. I guess that was a difficult time when Koichi Tohei left.

Yamada sensei: Yes. It was a big split. Some of the Japanese instructors went with him. Mostly the older former Tohei Sensei direct students from his hometown. Toyoda was one of them who split. Also this guy Shuji Maruyama. He was in Cleveland at first. He'd been hired by some martial arts school there. And then later he moved to Philadelphia. He went to Tohei, which was good for me and Kanai. He was a pain in the neck. (laughter)

In a way I hated to see the split happen because I didn't know how or exactly why Koichi Tohei changed his mind about the Aikikai. But ... he was a good leader. He had charisma. He was strong, positive. He always said everything straight. He was very nice, an easy boss. In a way I hated to see it happen but in another way it was a positive change. The Aikido became clearer, the aspect of technique itself. It's much clearer what were teaching now. You know, Tohei Sensei's stuff ... unbendable arm, ki, ki, ki ... too much philosophy, not enough basic technique. So, in a way it's good it happened. In a way it was good what happened with Saotome too. The people who went with him ... it cleaned up our house, in a way."


The last sentence, who was he referring to by "him"? Tohei or Saotome?
Saotome, I think.

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-19-2011, 08:26 AM   #35
sakumeikan
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Re: Tohei's resignation letter to the aikikai

Dear All,
Why all the secrecy?Publish and be damned!! We are not talking about Atomic weapons secrets or whether the W.M. D of Mr Blair was a load of bull or whether Jesus really did die on the cross.Years have passed and the main guys are no more.So how about dropping the cloak of mystery and bring the articles [both letters ]into the sunlight?I guess we are mature enough??? to handle the shock.Joe.
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Old 09-19-2011, 11:37 AM   #36
Michael Hackett
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Re: Tohei's resignation letter to the aikikai

Stan Pranin must have some valid reasons for withholding the rebuttal letter. Since he is a research historian and depends on access to private documents and interviews with those who were involved in the history of aikido, I suspect he doesn't want to close doors by stirring old controversy. I have to respect his decision, although I'm only guessing at the reasons.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 09-19-2011, 12:10 PM   #37
Janet Rosen
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Re: Tohei's resignation letter to the aikikai

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Years have passed and the main guys are no more.
Yamada Sensei is still quite alive.

Last edited by akiy : 09-19-2011 at 12:55 PM. Reason: Fi

Janet Rosen
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Old 09-19-2011, 12:36 PM   #38
Autrelle Holland
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Re: Tohei's resignation letter to the aikikai

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Yamada Sensei is still quite alive.
Curiously, since Tohei Sensei just passed, Yamada is the only still alive as the letter concerns.

I'll go ahead and say this, and it's really just a matter of opinion based my experiences and those close to me, as well as conversations held with those same people:

K. Ueshiba, Tohei, and Yamada are the first generation students of the Founder. To say that Aikikai has become somewhat questionable and controversial is not entirely correct. It's more correct to say that it started that way.

I say that with respect to all members of USAF and Aikikai. Of course, I am open to discussion about the matter, for whatever my words are worth to anyone on the subject.

Last edited by akiy : 09-19-2011 at 12:56 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
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Old 09-19-2011, 12:42 PM   #39
graham christian
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Re: Tohei's resignation letter to the aikikai

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Editor says:
September 15, 2011 at 5:33 pm
I do have the rebuttal, but no intention to publish it in the foreseeable future. It would reopen too many wounds!


http://blog.aikidojournal.com/2011/0...#comment-19048
Complete aikido: aikido kyohan : the definitive guide to the way of harmony By Roy Suenaka, Christopher Watson

Hi Demetrio.
The above can be found on google. For some reason I couldn't copy the link. Knowing you like to study these things I think you may like this. It gives a very interesting view of the scene at the time and thereafter. Hope you enjoy.

Regards.G.
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Old 09-19-2011, 01:12 PM   #40
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Tohei's resignation letter to the aikikai

Thanks Graham.

I'll take a look.

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Old 09-19-2011, 03:21 PM   #41
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Tohei's resignation letter to the aikikai

I have a copy of Roy Suenaka's book (published by Tuttle in 1997). It contains an illuminating discussion of the split, but does not contain a copy of Abe Tadashi's response.

Best wishes,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 09-19-2011, 03:58 PM   #42
DH
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Re: Tohei's resignation letter to the aikikai

Quote:
Autrelle Holland wrote: View Post

K. Ueshiba, Tohei, and Yamada are the first generation students of the Founder. To say that Aikikai has become somewhat questionable and controversial is not entirely correct. It's more correct to say that it started that way.
Yes.. Kisshomaru himself called pre-war aikido the golden age of aikido. There are all sorts of stories, but it was clear that for whatever reason, Kisshomaru was unable to retain the former students like Shioda and Shirata. Shirata had to be pleaded with by O sensei to help, but then Shirata's film, showing basic movements (for power building) as he had learned them and his weapons were banned by Kisshomaru.
Wasn't it clear that Tohei and also Yamaguchi, were the drivers for years? Have we any credible evidence to the contrary?
Dan
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Old 09-19-2011, 04:18 PM   #43
Chris Li
 
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Re: Tohei's resignation letter to the aikikai

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Yes.. Kisshomaru himself called pre-war aikido the golden age of aikido. There are all sorts of stories, but it was clear that for whatever reason, Kisshomaru was unable to retain the former students like Shioda and Shirata. Shirata had to be pleaded with by O sensei to help, but then Shirata's film, showing basic movements (for power building) as he had learned them and his weapons were banned by Kisshomaru.
Wasn't it clear that Tohei and also Yamaguchi, were the drivers for years? Have we any credible evidence to the contrary?
Dan
You can't discount Kisaburo Osawa's influence either, I think.

Shioda was (relatively speaking) never much of a weapons guy (he flunked that part of his his 9th dan test).

Saotome was, I know, specifically told not to teach weapons at hombu by Kisshomaru - even in private lessons with his own students. Yamaguchi sometimes taught weapons at hombu - but rarely, and usually just in the private workshops. Of course, Kisshomaru was in less of a position to object where Yamaguchi was concerned.

Best.

Chris

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Old 09-19-2011, 04:18 PM   #44
sakumeikan
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Re: Tohei's resignation letter to the aikikai

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Yamada Sensei is still quite alive.
Dear Janet,
I meant Tohei Sensei and the 2nd Doshu. I think these two were the main men in the affair.I am aware that Yamada Sensei is alive. Cheers, Joe.
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Old 09-19-2011, 08:45 PM   #45
rulemaker
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Re: Tohei's resignation letter to the aikikai

I also have a copy of Roy Suenaka's book "Aikido Complete" and I think it is about time to read it again.
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Old 09-20-2011, 01:23 AM   #46
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Re: Tohei's resignation letter to the aikikai

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
You can't discount Kisaburo Osawa's influence either, I think.

Shioda was (relatively speaking) never much of a weapons guy (he flunked that part of his his 9th dan test).

Saotome was, I know, specifically told not to teach weapons at hombu by Kisshomaru - even in private lessons with his own students. Yamaguchi sometimes taught weapons at hombu - but rarely, and usually just in the private workshops. Of course, Kisshomaru was in less of a position to object where Yamaguchi was concerned.
One might have some sympathy for Kisshomaru's position if he felt that there was not a strong enough curriculum or pedagogy to fully support the practice of ken or jo. Better nothing at all than something half assed. Indeed that would explain both the absence of training at honbu and the practice at Iwama without recourse to anything other than good sense and decorum on the part of the Doshu.

-Doug Walker
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Old 09-20-2011, 01:51 AM   #47
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Re: Tohei's resignation letter to the aikikai

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Shioda was (relatively speaking) never much of a weapons guy (he flunked that part of his his 9th dan test).
We're off topic here, but that story sounds a bit strange to me. If the rank you're referring to is Aikikai (I suppose Shioda was of high Aikikai rank before he left) were there really formal grading tests on that level? And including weapons, even more surprising.

If the rank is Yoshinkan the story also sounds weird. The founder of a style getting rank in his own style, judged by whom?
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Old 09-20-2011, 02:04 AM   #48
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Re: Tohei's resignation letter to the aikikai

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Hanna Bj�rk wrote: View Post
We're off topic here, but that story sounds a bit strange to me. If the rank you're referring to is Aikikai (I suppose Shioda was of high Aikikai rank before he left) were there really formal grading tests on that level? And including weapons, even more surprising.

If the rank is Yoshinkan the story also sounds weird. The founder of a style getting rank in his own style, judged by whom?
It was 1951 in Iwama, and the uke for the test was...Morihei Ueshiba. I suppose that makes it Aikikai .

The first part of the test was sword, the second part was empty hand.

Actually, Shioda never left, since the Yoshinkan never formally separated from the Aikikai - they just sort of developed in parallel after the war. I don't know how it is now, but I believe that Shioda was on the board of directors of the Aikikai until he died, and vice-verse with Kisshomaru and the Yoshinkan.

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-20-2011, 02:15 AM   #49
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Re: Tohei's resignation letter to the aikikai

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
It was 1951 in Iwama, and the uke for the test was...Morihei Ueshiba. I suppose that makes it Aikikai .

The first part of the test was sword, the second part was empty hand.
So Ueshiba actually performed grading tests? Interesting, I was under the impression he just handed ranks out in pretty lofty ways. Where did you learn this?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Actually, Shioda never left, since the Yoshinkan never formally separated from the Aikikai - they just sort of developed in parallel after the war. I don't know how it is now, but I believe that Shioda was on the board of directors of the Aikikai until he died, and vice-verse with Kisshomaru and the Yoshinkan.
That's also very intresting.
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Old 09-20-2011, 02:16 AM   #50
Chris Li
 
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Re: Tohei's resignation letter to the aikikai

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Doug Walker wrote: View Post
One might have some sympathy for Kisshomaru's position if he felt that there was not a strong enough curriculum or pedagogy to fully support the practice of ken or jo. Better nothing at all than something half assed. Indeed that would explain both the absence of training at honbu and the practice at Iwama without recourse to anything other than good sense and decorum on the part of the Doshu.
Of course, that may be true, and there's a good argument for that. On the other hand, one could say much the same about the lack of a curriculum or pedagogy for empty hand technique - and that didn't seem to stop them. They went ahead and formulated a curriculum and pedagogy on their own.

Think about it....

Ueshiba adopted a swordsman, Kiyoshi Nakakura, in 1932 to take over his art - according to Nakakura:

Quote:
Ueshiba Sensei used to say that Aikido is closer to Kendo than it is to Judo. Therefore, he expressed his desire to receive an adopted son from the Kendo side.
It was important enough that he made blood oath to Kashima-Shinto Ryu in order to have Kisshomaru receive instruction in the sword before the war.

In 1951 sword was important enough to make up half of Shioda's 9th dan test.

Of course, we know what importance Ueshiba placed on weapons with Morihiro Saito in Iwama through the late 1950's and 1960's.

So what part of all that didn't the students at hombu understand?

Best,

Chris

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