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Old 09-10-2011, 08:26 AM   #26
tlk52
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Re: Weight Distribution: Standing and In Movement

"Movement may be directed from the center, but all power and movement come from the feet and our connection with the Earth.
"

Weight transfer is my focus lately.

I recently started Tai Chi (I continue to practice Aikido - 45+ years) with William C. C, Chen and it's helping increase the sensitivity to weight transfer. he has an interesting approach to it that works for other martial arts.

http://www.williamccchen.com/3nails.htm

Last edited by tlk52 : 09-10-2011 at 08:28 AM. Reason: spelling!
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Old 09-10-2011, 11:21 AM   #27
gregstec
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Re: Weight Distribution: Standing and In Movement

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
What Ron said - plus all power and movement does not come from the ground. All up energy comes from the ground and all down energy comes from gravity - now here is a novel idea, try moving your body by using this down energy instead of always using up energy.

Greg
Let's just add a few things here. So far, all discussion has been on the lower body and its weight distribution and affect on movement and balance - what about the upper body?

Looking at this from the objective of mainlining one's balance while taking the other's balance, and keeping in mind the basic tenet of whole body connection and movement, we have to consider what is going on elsewhere in the body and not just how a particular foot is weighted. If the feet are viewed to represent the weight of the lower body, let's use the hand for the upper body.

The term double weight has been used in the thread, so let's look at that. First, there are different opinions of just what that means. A lot of people view that as how it was used in this thread so far - balancing the weight 50-50 between the two feet. Others view it as adding your weight to uke's weight in a particular fashion. And then there is how some of the CIMA, and other internal arts, view it; which is having the majority of weight in both the upper and lower body of the same side at the same time - as in having all your weight in your right hand over your right foot.

Looking at the last model of double weight (or double heavy as some call it) to properly maintain your balance in a static position and avoid being double heavy, you have 50% of your weight in each foot, and since the right hand is viewed as being connected to the left foot with the left hand being connected to the right foot, you also have the weight of each foot being manifested in the opposite side of the upper body essentially giving you a cross body balance left to right - now take this one step further by making sure that if you have the left hand forward and out, the right hand is back and out, the left leg is back, and the right leg is forward - this will give you a left to right and forward to back cross body balance. Now the trick is to maintain that type of balance while moving and receiving energy; granted, while moving there will be a shifting of weights, but the upper, lower, and cross body balance ratios must stay the same - one way to help with that is cross body spiraling

Greg
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Old 09-10-2011, 05:31 PM   #28
Michael Varin
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Re: Weight Distribution: Standing and In Movement

Good discussion.

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote:
What Ron said - plus all power and movement does not come from the ground. All up energy comes from the ground and all down energy comes from gravity - now here is a novel idea, try moving your body by using this down energy instead of always using up energy.
But what Ron said doesn't seem to correspond with what you said.

Granted "all" was probably a poor choice of words, if you were in space where would your power come from? How would you move? Gas propulsion I suppose.

I'm not a physicist, but I'm pretty sure for us humans, gravity comes from the Earth. And that, combined with friction, is what allows us to move.

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote:
Walk across a room. Were you aware of carrying your own weight? Did you have to shift your weight from foot to foot in any noticeable way as you walked?
Yes and yes. It's not difficult to become very aware of these things.

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote:
When you let your weight sink to your feet, no matter the distribution pattern, in order to move you have to raise up and shift your weight before you can move laterally. That takes time. Having "no weight on your feet" allows you to initiate lateral movement without first having to move up in order to shift your weight.
I disagree. See what Greg said about "down energy."

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote:
I keep my weight centered at one point and don't "plant" myself to await the attack. So even though I appear motionless, I'm always moving. It's easier to change direction than it is to initiate motion from a standstill.
That depends on which direction you are moving and how you want to change that motion.

Do you think weight distribution is the same as "planting" yourself?

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 09-10-2011, 09:23 PM   #29
gregstec
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Re: Weight Distribution: Standing and In Movement

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Good discussion.

But what Ron said doesn't seem to correspond with what you said.

Granted "all" was probably a poor choice of words, if you were in space where would your power come from? How would you move? Gas propulsion I suppose.

I'm not a physicist, but I'm pretty sure for us humans, gravity comes from the Earth. And that, combined with friction, is what allows us to move.

Yes and yes. It's not difficult to become very aware of these things.

I disagree. See what Greg said about "down energy."

That depends on which direction you are moving and how you want to change that motion.

Do you think weight distribution is the same as "planting" yourself?
OK - some good points - I can see where a lot of this can be somewhat confusing based upon a particular perspective - everything is relative, so let's just try to keep it simple with a focus on the objective of maintaining balance.

In its simplest terms balance is yin and yang - opposing forces relative to each other that counter act. In a static mode, this is easy to maintain once a proper structure is set up in the body to support and align the body to counter the forces of gravity. However, in the dynamic mode with incoming forces from another, that is where the fun begins because force vectors are changing and interacting constantly.

The challenge is to blend with that and adjust to maintain the initial balance that was set up in the static mode - the only way to do that is to flow with the go

Greg
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Old 09-11-2011, 12:39 AM   #30
Janet Rosen
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Re: Weight Distribution: Standing and In Movement

As I use the terms, weighting does not equal rooting. Weighting is an awareness of and then a volitional control of the relationship between my center and my feet that, done properly, prevents me from becoming rooted.
Having mind at one point can never negate the reality that I am standing, walking, turning etc on two feet and that some relative portion of my body's mass and weight has to be on one. Or both of them.

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Old 09-11-2011, 05:39 AM   #31
Mario Tobias
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Re: Weight Distribution: Standing and In Movement

A 9th Dan Aikidoka explains the 60-40 weight distribution as I discussed previously .

Inoue Sensei Kamae

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vzyl1amcS8o
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Old 09-11-2011, 08:07 AM   #32
gregstec
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Re: Weight Distribution: Standing and In Movement

Quote:
Mario Tobias wrote: View Post
A 9th Dan Aikidoka explains the 60-40 weight distribution as I discussed previously .

Inoue Sensei Kamae

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vzyl1amcS8o
As I mentioned, everything is relative - the stance in Yoshikan, as described by Inoue, is very strong front to back but is extremely weak left to right - most other Aikido groups are not that linear in the front to back and have some left to right balance - and all the internal arts (Chinese and Japanese) that I am aware of have front/back and left/right balance in their stances.

Greg
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Old 09-11-2011, 09:06 AM   #33
gates
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Re: Weight Distribution: Standing and In Movement

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
As I mentioned, everything is relative - the stance in Yoshikan, as described by Inoue, is very strong front to back but is extremely weak left to right - most other Aikido groups are not that linear in the front to back and have some left to right balance - and all the internal arts (Chinese and Japanese) that I am aware of have front/back and left/right balance in their stances.

Greg
Based on the tripod/triangle rule they are weak(er) on the diagonals then?
(Not trying to be a smart arse - serious question)
Regards
Keith

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Old 09-11-2011, 09:41 AM   #34
gregstec
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Re: Weight Distribution: Standing and In Movement

Quote:
Keith Gates wrote: View Post
Based on the tripod/triangle rule they are weak(er) on the diagonals then?
(Not trying to be a smart arse - serious question)
Regards
Keith
Fair enough question - however, I need some clarification before I can answer.

So, please define your definition of the tripod/triangle rule and how you view it to relate to Uke and Nage.

And, are you asking how I view it to the Yoshikan two sided stance or the four sided IS stance ?

Greg
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Old 09-11-2011, 10:11 AM   #35
gates
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Re: Weight Distribution: Standing and In Movement

Greg,
Sorry I wasn't clear enough.

You stated that in the Yoshikan stance, as described, that the strongest direction is front-back and the weakest line is side to side, fair enough.

You stated that in Internal styles have front-back , left-right balance.

The tripod/triangle rule is described as follows: draw a line between the two feet, draw another line at right angles from the centre of this line. This is the weakest line inherent in any given stance.

To maintain a good forward-backward, side-side balance I am assuming that the feet are placed on a diagonal, with a bit of separation? The weak line is as described above, at right angles to a line connecting the two feet together.

Hope that makes sense !?!

I think it also worth noting that the specific angles of the feet (and therefore knees and hips) is also important in Hanmi Kamai and will change balance lines. FWIW I have been taught that the front foot should be turned out slightly so that it points back to the big toe of the rear foot, (As shown in various books) if not turned out then never turned inwards. Turning the front foot out slightly has several benefits, one of which is better left-right balance.
Regards
Keith

Last edited by gates : 09-11-2011 at 10:22 AM.

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Old 09-11-2011, 08:26 PM   #36
gregstec
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Re: Weight Distribution: Standing and In Movement

Quote:
Keith Gates wrote: View Post
Greg,
Sorry I wasn't clear enough.

You stated that in the Yoshikan stance, as described, that the strongest direction is front-back and the weakest line is side to side, fair enough.

You stated that in Internal styles have front-back , left-right balance.

The tripod/triangle rule is described as follows: draw a line between the two feet, draw another line at right angles from the centre of this line. This is the weakest line inherent in any given stance.

To maintain a good forward-backward, side-side balance I am assuming that the feet are placed on a diagonal, with a bit of separation? The weak line is as described above, at right angles to a line connecting the two feet together.

Hope that makes sense !?!

I think it also worth noting that the specific angles of the feet (and therefore knees and hips) is also important in Hanmi Kamai and will change balance lines. FWIW I have been taught that the front foot should be turned out slightly so that it points back to the big toe of the rear foot, (As shown in various books) if not turned out then never turned inwards. Turning the front foot out slightly has several benefits, one of which is better left-right balance.
Regards
Keith
Sorry for the delay is response - football Sunday

Understood on the tripod rule - yes, IMO, the weak point increases proportionally with the increase of angle from a strong point of balance - for example, 90 degrees from a front or back strong point would be the weakest.

Yes, a lot of IS folks have one foot forward and a wide low stance as seen in a lot of Taichi folks. I prefer a not so pronounced stance with one foot slightly forward turned slightly out with hips straight and knees slightly bent - I establish a four point of balance by using the upper body to counter the lower body is a cross body mode like I previously described - then use cross body spiraling to counter in coming forces to maintain balance.

Greg
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Old 09-11-2011, 10:41 PM   #37
gates
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Re: Weight Distribution: Standing and In Movement

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Sorry for the delay is response - football Sunday

Understood on the tripod rule - yes, IMO, the weak point increases proportionally with the increase of angle from a strong point of balance - for example, 90 degrees from a front or back strong point would be the weakest.

Yes, a lot of IS folks have one foot forward and a wide low stance as seen in a lot of Taichi folks. I prefer a not so pronounced stance with one foot slightly forward turned slightly out with hips straight and knees slightly bent - I establish a four point of balance by using the upper body to counter the lower body is a cross body mode like I previously described - then use cross body spiraling to counter in coming forces to maintain balance.

Greg
Greg,
I am interested to know a little more about the stance you are holding.

'four points of balance using upper body to counter lower body as a cross body mode" and "cross body spiralling to maintain balance"

These are not concepts I am familiar with, other than you description above - which for the most part are quite clear.
My question is what is cross body spiralling anatomically? How does it manifest itself internally and externally?

Intuitively I think I can understand the principle so I am wondering if I would be correct in assuming that the body spiralling you refer to would be akin to turning out the front foot out slightly in a basic hanmi kamae?

If you have pictures/clips of somebody/anybody standing in the type of stance you refer to then that would be of a great help, to get a better sense of what it looks like and how it might work to help maintain a stable balance.

Obviously there are pros and cons to any given stance. A more square on, feet apart stance should have better overall balance, and a hanmi kamae allows for quick turns and pivots. I am yet to see a well executed shihonage from anything other than a proper hanmi.
Keith

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Old 09-12-2011, 07:12 AM   #38
gregstec
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Re: Weight Distribution: Standing and In Movement

Quote:
Keith Gates wrote: View Post
Greg,
I am interested to know a little more about the stance you are holding.

'four points of balance using upper body to counter lower body as a cross body mode" and "cross body spiralling to maintain balance"

These are not concepts I am familiar with, other than you description above - which for the most part are quite clear.
My question is what is cross body spiralling anatomically? How does it manifest itself internally and externally?

Intuitively I think I can understand the principle so I am wondering if I would be correct in assuming that the body spiralling you refer to would be akin to turning out the front foot out slightly in a basic hanmi kamae?

If you have pictures/clips of somebody/anybody standing in the type of stance you refer to then that would be of a great help, to get a better sense of what it looks like and how it might work to help maintain a stable balance.

Obviously there are pros and cons to any given stance. A more square on, feet apart stance should have better overall balance, and a hanmi kamae allows for quick turns and pivots. I am yet to see a well executed shihonage from anything other than a proper hanmi.
Keith
OK, I will try to explain a little better. The stance I am referring to is what we do in a basic IS exercise from Dan called central pivot - it is used to deal with incoming frontal energy. As you might have guessed from some hints in other threads, we don't do pictures nor videos sorry.

Start with left foot forward with right arm and hand out with palm up, left hand back and out with palm down - hips and head are facing forward. Balance is distributed equally between both feet. As uke pushes on your chest, you pivot the torso by turning the right shoulder forward, right hand is reaching out spiraling clockwise, left shoulder is turning back, left hand reaching back and spiraling clockwise, left knee joint is opening with right knee joint closing, AND head and hips stay facing straight forward.

From the above, you should get a picture of the external physical portion of the drill - I did not go into any of the stuff that is going on at the same time with intent, ki, breath, or dantein - for that type of detail, it is best to get hands on with someone - sorry.

Greg
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Old 09-12-2011, 07:57 AM   #39
Walter Martindale
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Re: Weight Distribution: Standing and In Movement

Quote:
Daniel James wrote: View Post
Using force plates at a training camp recently I was stunned to discover that most aikidoka there were unaware of weight changes of up to 5kgs (or more) when asked to stand evenly. Digging a bit further in the scientific literature it seem this is true in elite athletes as well (ballet and football plays) looking at centre of preassure studies.
Its stunning because induced weight shifts of this order are enough to create a topple i.e. kuzushi and yet its below the level of perception of most.
Its been a real where to from here moment, some clues are lurking in the IS community I think

dan
Oooh. Cool!! Measured weight distribution!!!
Was any done dynamically and synched to video? I know that you get a centre of pressure from a force plate, and that if there are two feet on the same force plate, the centre of pressure will be somewhere between the two feet (that's where centre of mass falls) unless the person is deliberately shifting weight to one foot or the other. My question - was centre of pressure tracked statically with people standing, or was it tracked during execution of techniques?
THAT would be interesting to see if it could be done - Uke starting on one force platform and Nage performing most of the technique on another force platform - considering how much force platforms cost, this isn't a trivial exercise....
Then you'd get the facts about what's going on, rather than the martial artists' interpretation of what they delude themselves to believe they're doing. such as - not putting weight on the foot when walking - well, sorry - if you don't put your weight on your foot while you're walking, you either don't touch the ground (not possible) or you sink through the ground (quicksand?) or....you buckle? I have yet to see a human fly without some form of mechanical assistance.
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Old 09-12-2011, 11:02 AM   #40
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Re: Weight Distribution: Standing and In Movement

“Normally people explain doubly heavy as the condition when both feet are equally strong and the center of gravity is centered between the two legs. This has been treated as the fundamental taboo of Taijiquan. I think otherwise. Some also say that double heavy is when two opponents have equal power. However, this observation complies with the requirement of; “When the opponent is hard then I am soft.” From the Taijiquan treatise. This method avoids the problem of head-on power, but this straight line of retreat will cause the rear to be double heavy and the energy to become lost. In order to void the mistake of double heavy and achieve the ability of not losing nor powering up, one must coordinate the upper and lower body by using spiral movement.
“The opponent is hard while I am soft” is realized when the hand is solid while the foot is empty. This will avoid double heaviness. The solidness of my hand is the result of the opponents amplifying my power. The requirement of the feet is that the empty foot is lighter than the solid foot. It is definitely NOT that one is empty and the other is full.

The condition of double heavy occurs whenever the hand and foot on the same side are weighted solidly or equally at the same time. Techniques (of defense) that attempted under these circumstances will be rendered useless. The separation of the upper and lower bodies is crucial to the solution to double-weight (or double-heavy). Double-weight is manifested in being caught stiff (equally on one side). When upper and lower body separation is applied, the balance is maintained.
When both the front hand and front foot are solid and weighted you can fall or be pulled forward. When both the front hand and front foot are solid and weighted you will fall on your back or be bounced out. The chan si energy of the two legs must always have one positive while the other is negative…….”
Hong Junsheng

It is interesting to note that he repeatedly offers in his writing that many experts have misunderstood the classics and that many writings disagree. He also notes specific instances where Chan Fake said this is and where later those in Chen vilage would disagree on this or that related point with others who had trained with Chen Fake and with the Yang community. Think of it like the Takeda/Ueshiba/ Sagawa groups arguing their take on aiki.

I have very strong opinions on this subject based on my experiences within traditional arts and MMA.

_____________________________

This is a clear example of double weighting. You will note that in the entirety of the exchanges here, the guy who is being thrown is being made to conform to double heavy (The weight of the thrower or nage is being placed on or is drawing ukes weight out toward, the same hand or shoulder over the same side foot).

Interestingly there is a way to train the body that will cancel this effect. You can learn to carry your weight and manifest energy so that it is extremely difficult to be thrown. It has tendency to cancel out force with hardly any thought, and it conforms to HJS theory. Of further interest is the ability to hit and kick without wind up and where your bodies movements, expressing yin and yang, has a tendency ...to... move (off balance, or make them adjust) anything that touches it along it's point of movement or their point of contact. They are encoutering a myriad of differing movements; all moving and being expressed as one in totally different directions.

So, it's more about being or better stated, getting weighted... not the way you move yourself. Then having the waist and Dantian moving with the legs and the balance point between them allowing instantanious changes to take place with the weight carried on the hand (arm, shoulder, side) transfering to the opposite foot. It is rather obvious in the jujutsu video I linked to. I'd venture to bet that while they discovered it is a principle to throw, they don't know quite how to prevent it from happening to them by a certain way to condition their body.

Dan
“In order to void the mistake of double heavy and achieve the ability of not losing nor powering up, one must coordinate the upper and lower body by using spiral movement.”
----Hong Junsheng
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Old 09-12-2011, 11:58 AM   #41
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Re: Weight Distribution: Standing and In Movement

Hey Dan,

Link doesn't work!

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 09-12-2011, 12:15 PM   #42
Janet Rosen
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Re: Weight Distribution: Standing and In Movement

Alas, a private video....

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Old 09-12-2011, 03:19 PM   #43
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Re: Weight Distribution: Standing and In Movement

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Alas, a private video....
Don't get too excited - I saw it before it went private and it is not of Dan Just two guys showing Dan's point of double weighting same side hand and foot to execute a throw, etc.

Greg
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Old 09-12-2011, 04:29 PM   #44
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Re: Weight Distribution: Standing and In Movement

Apparently that fellow pulled it. He made the point that he had "discovered" a principle with which to throw people, not realizing what he had "discovered" is both one of thee major cornerstone principles to throw people, and one of the major principles to train in order not to be thrown. No need to worry, go to any Judo, aikido, Taiji or jujutsu video and you will see those set ups...it's all over the place. The fellows throws were not bad at all; decent setups for a training vid, and clearly showed the principle he was trying to demonstrate.

Aikido's founder discussed a method (no doubt learned from 23 yrs in Daito ryu) that trains the body to counter that. He apparently talked about it openly many times in plain Japanese terms and in some colorful terms and those who translated were clueless to decipher terminology- that some of us now know has been around and discussed in exactly the same manner in Chinese budo as well for hundreds of years.
What he discussed was trained in Daito Ryu, known, taught, and written in various Bagua and Taiji treatises and is work-a-day information. Apparently to a number of Ueshiba's students and translators...it was indecipherable and he was a living Kami.
Dan
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Old 09-12-2011, 06:05 PM   #45
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Re: Weight Distribution: Standing and In Movement

Sounds like a complicated way of saying, counter balancing?
Keith

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Old 09-12-2011, 06:25 PM   #46
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Re: Weight Distribution: Standing and In Movement

Quote:
Keith Gates wrote: View Post
Sounds like a complicated way of saying, counter balancing?
Keith
It is counter balancing by definition, it is also extraordinarily difficult to maintain and do without certain factors being in place.
1. I've not met the man anywhere, except in Master class Chinese teachers who could pull it off under stress.
2. Nor has it been written in any Japanese source I am familiar with.
3. Nor has it been written about in any forum I have ever read.
Though I must say that after telling a well known teacher years ago...all of a sudden their published works highlighting just the opposite way of moving...changed. And later, they of course...had been doing it all along and I was told I stole it from them!!. Lucky for me, I saved all the published works and made friends with dozens of people who posess those dated hand-outs as well.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 09-12-2011 at 06:30 PM.
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Old 09-12-2011, 07:33 PM   #47
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Re: Weight Distribution: Standing and In Movement

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
It is counter balancing by definition, it is also extraordinarily difficult to maintain and do without certain factors being in place.
1. I've not met the man anywhere, except in Master class Chinese teachers who could pull it off under stress.
2. Nor has it been written in any Japanese source I am familiar with.
3. Nor has it been written about in any forum I have ever read.
Dan, I am grateful that you are prepared to share your thoughts and knowledge.

I realise that it was a complete over simplification on my behalf but I wanted to clarify my understanding of the concept at a root level.

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