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Old 09-10-2011, 04:09 PM   #51
Allen Beebe
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Just doing my bit to protect the secrets

It has something to do with the forum software, but I'm not sure what. Here's a link with the Japanese (and some explanation - I haven't read through it, it just came up on Google):

http://www.ac.auone-net.jp/~aikida/touitudou/touitu.htm

Best,

Chris
Thanks Chris!

All the best,
Allen

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 09-11-2011, 12:31 PM   #52
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
But also, is about the reliability of the expert witnesses who are delivering expert evidence about who has IP based on what they see on video.

Remember there is not possible to feel Mifune anymore. Expert witnesses and remembrances of the people who trained with him is the only thing available today.
No, it is not possible to directly feel what Mifune was doing, but we should give some credit and credibility to individuals who have directly felt and trained in "internal" body methods, when they say that they can recognize certain visual cues -- even in a video -- that such skills are being used.

As an example, albeit an imperfect one: Back in the 1980s, a movie called "The Black Stallion" came out in the U.S., and I watched it with a young man I was dating at the time. The movie was about -- of course -- a black stallion, and a young boy who befriended it.

There came a scene in the movie where the horse and the boy were walking on a sandy beach along the ocean. I watched the horse's movements, and casually mentioned to my boyfriend, "That horse is about to drop and roll on the ground." About two seconds later, sure enough, the horse dropped and rolled. My boyfriend was taken aback: "You've already seen this movie," he said with some annoyance. But, I had not. I had been riding and working around horses since I was four years old, and I owned a horse. I knew the body language.

Similarly, there are visual cues and hints in Mifune's videos to someone who has some background in IMA and knows what to watch for. This does not mean that they always can see everything, or that it's never difficult to discern "internal" from "just very good judo," but I would not be so reticent about giving the people who train this way, some respect for their observations.

My old boyfriend continued to believe that I had seen "The Black Stallion" beforehand, until I had described to him the body cues to watch for, and he saw my horse do the exact same thing,
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Old 09-11-2011, 12:39 PM   #53
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
we should give some credit and credibility to individuals who have directly felt and trained in "internal" body methods, when they say that they can recognize certain visual cues -- even in a video -- that such skills are being used.
To all of them?

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Old 09-11-2011, 12:45 PM   #54
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
To all of them?
That's a question you certainly could answer for yourself.
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Old 09-11-2011, 08:03 PM   #55
jester
 
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

Is there an exact description of what IP is on this forum? If so, please post it so we can all be on the same page.

-It seems to be all about semantics!
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Old 09-12-2011, 04:05 AM   #56
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

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Tim Jester wrote: View Post
Is there an exact description of what IP is on this forum? If so, please post it so we can all be on the same page.
IP, like the Tao, is ineffable.

PS: More on Bluming's visit to Aikikai Hombu
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...9&postcount=41

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 09-12-2011 at 04:07 AM.

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Old 09-12-2011, 04:27 AM   #57
gates
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
IP, like the Tao, is ineffable.
Maybe to give us a clue we should refer to the latest Shambala release "The IP of Pooh"

Last edited by gates : 09-12-2011 at 04:30 AM.

Enjoy the journey
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Old 09-12-2011, 04:33 AM   #58
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

The IP of Pooh comes from eating hunny.

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Old 09-12-2011, 05:45 AM   #59
dps
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
IP, like the Tao, is ineffable.

PS: More on Bluming's visit to Aikikai Hombu
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...9&postcount=41
from that article;

"From Bluming's point of view, it had to work on him and be functional"

Practical application in real life not videos, demos, or forum posts determines credibility.

dps
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Old 09-12-2011, 06:27 AM   #60
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

Ignore function is awesome.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 09-12-2011, 06:38 AM   #61
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote:
Ignore function is awesome.
There is no charge for awesomeness... or attractiveness.

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Old 09-12-2011, 08:56 AM   #62
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
IP, like the Tao, is ineffable.
Any physical activity can be expressed and explained.

What I see in the Mifune video is Judo. He was very good of course but he's up against a lot of guys who weren't even close to his level. It's no wonder that none of them stand any chance of throwing him.



-

Last edited by jester : 09-12-2011 at 09:04 AM.

-It seems to be all about semantics!
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Old 09-12-2011, 09:17 AM   #63
Keith Larman
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

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Tim Jester wrote: View Post
Any physical activity can be expressed and explained.
No, those physical activities for which we have a vocabulary due to a deeper understanding can be explained.

There is another thread here on the forums that tries to give a framework in western/modern terms as to what *might* be going on.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20239

It fits well with my personal perception of my own experiences. It *could* be. I'm not a physiologist. But has been an increasing awareness within sports medicine and other related fields that our simple models of human movement (bones at structure, muscles as little contracting engines) may be oversimplified.

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
What I see in the Mifune video is Judo. He was very good of course but he's up against a lot of guys who weren't even close to his level. It's no wonder that none of them stand any chance of throwing him.
-
And what some of us are saying is that if the ideas expressed are correct then many of the greats in many physical endeavors may in fact develop aspects of this same thing we're talking about and their utilization of those developed body attributes helps them transcend. You can be very good without them. But having the skills is just yet another tool in the toolbox.

What I tried to say before the condescending/dismissive BS entered the conversation was that yes, there are aspects of his movement that look very much like IP as I have experienced it.

But I'm done. I've read the last few comments and realize there is little sincerity among some posters (not you, Tim) and to be honest I see little point in this. There's tough guys on the forum who discount it but won't bother getting out to see any of the guys. Their's aiki-fluffy guys who discount it but won't get out and get hands on. No amount of talking is going to convince everyone.

I would suggest reading Allen Beebe's recent post. He very eloquently expressed the issue facing people trying to understand this stuff as well as the philosophical conundrum of trying to "deconstruct" something of this nature.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20267

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Old 09-12-2011, 09:40 AM   #64
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

one thing that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is that there are many layers to the onion that is IP with each layer really being its own specific thing. Nobody should be surprised to see these various layers pop up in all sorts of places, MA based or not. Having some grasp of one of those aspects doesn't imply having them all.

While I think Mifune has a relaxed, connected body and he does use the ground for support as mentioned earlier, it's impossible to say to what degree those skills exist and how much of what you see is just damned good judo skills augmented slightly by them. If one were to do strictly IP based "tests" with him, I'd imagine his skill level wouldn't astound anyone, but when you take what he has, combined with a lifetime of technical skill, practice and such, you get someone like him.
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Old 09-12-2011, 10:21 AM   #65
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
While I think Mifune has a relaxed, connected body and he does use the ground for support as mentioned earlier, it's impossible to say to what degree those skills exist and how much of what you see is just damned good judo skills augmented slightly by them. If one were to do strictly IP based "tests" with him, I'd imagine his skill level wouldn't astound anyone, but when you take what he has, combined with a lifetime of technical skill, practice and such, you get someone like him.
So we could discard the existence of some kind of IP developement methods in early Kodokan judo.

Thanks for the info.

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Old 09-12-2011, 10:44 AM   #66
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
So we could discard the existence of some kind of IP developement methods in early Kodokan judo.

Thanks for the info.
no, I wouldn't say that at all. I'm no Judo historian, but I recall there being several old kata that are different in nature to most others. It's theorized that those kata's are for just that, but few if any actually bother with them. The old "nobody trains like that anymore" thing. There would also have to be some level of instruction on how to do the kata's as well, for it to matter. The question would be to what degree those kata trained the skills overall.

It's just reworking the body to move in a different way, not magic.
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Old 09-12-2011, 10:58 AM   #67
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

But Jason,

Mifune, and the other judoka I pointed to, were the guys who trained those kata. So the theory that those kata were (at least at the beginning of judo) IP training tools is probably wrong (or the kata impropery practised).

Itsutsu no kata, for instance dates from late 19 century (iirc it comes from Tenjin Shinyo-ryu)... something went wrong or they were wrong from the start?

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Old 09-12-2011, 11:59 AM   #68
chillzATL
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
But Jason,

Mifune, and the other judoka I pointed to, were the guys who trained those kata. So the theory that those kata were (at least at the beginning of judo) IP training tools is probably wrong (or the kata impropery practised).

Itsutsu no kata, for instance dates from late 19 century (iirc it comes from Tenjin Shinyo-ryu)... something went wrong or they were wrong from the start?
I don't understand how this changes anything. I said that Mifune seems to have some aspects of IS skill, but to what degree I can't say and it certainly isn't evident on the video. IMO it would not be to the degree of someone like Ueshiba, Takeda, etc. That's just my opinion though, but I think it's a safe one to give.

As I also said, there has to be a certain amount of understanding involved with the doing. Does that make sense? A lot of people do a lot of things and never really understand them. Just deciding you're going to do something doesn't really mean that you're going to be able to do it.

As for the kata, I'm speculating, but I would think that these were separate movements made into a kata, but again, me speculating. I don't think that's hte one I'm thinking of, I recall it being much longer. Anyway, I see a lot of relaxed stretching of the body to connect it as a unit, there could be breathing components as well, but you can't tell from the vid. The one where he backs into uke with his forearm on his chest looks very similar to an exercise Toby Threadgill teaches.

Last edited by chillzATL : 09-12-2011 at 12:06 PM.
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Old 09-12-2011, 07:20 PM   #69
Toby Threadgill
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
The one where he backs into uke with his forearm on his chest looks very similar to an exercise Toby Threadgill teaches.
FWIW...During one of my forays into Kanda bookstores I found a small book first published in the late 1800's titled something like "Judo Giho and Gokui" One chapter included notes and drawings related to several of the Yoshin ryu Nairiki kata. I should have bought it but the price was an obscene 45,000 yen. My shopping colleague, budo historian and friend Shingo Ohgami took a peek at the book and said he already had a copy of the book and I could scan it. A year later while visiting Ohgami's sensei's research library I located his copy of the book intent on scanning it for my collection. When I looked for the Nairiki chapter it was not to be found. It seems Ohgami's copy of the book was a much later printing from the early 20th century and the Nairiki chapter had been omitted. Unfortunately, stuff like the Nairiki kata were deemed martial mysticism by early 20th century Judoka and slowly abandoned. So here we are 100 years later wondering what a guy like Kyuzo Mifune was exposed to and by whom. You see, when I watch Mifune, I see some of the telltale internal signs Keith Larman alluded to. So, there's little question in my mind that Kyuzo Mifune had some level of internal skills, and given that two lines of Yoshin ryu had a significant technical impact on Judo, I believe I'm familiar with the source of his internal skills. The question remains who taught him and how deep was his study. That we'll never know.

Regardless, the guy was a fantastic judoka and an exquisite budo technician. I admire him and his skills greatly.

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

Last edited by Toby Threadgill : 09-12-2011 at 07:24 PM.
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Old 09-12-2011, 07:39 PM   #70
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
no, I wouldn't say that at all. I'm no Judo historian, but I recall there being several old kata that are different in nature to most others. It's theorized that those kata's are for just that, but few if any actually bother with them. The old "nobody trains like that anymore" thing. There would also have to be some level of instruction on how to do the kata's as well, for it to matter. The question would be to what degree those kata trained the skills overall.

It's just reworking the body to move in a different way, not magic.
I agree. Of those I have seen and also were shown by old Kodokan guys, they were more indicative of six-direction training, postural alignment, weight transfer, and also of more technical oriented movement, which Mifune shows and not much else. These are very, very basic things (which Keith and Toby allude to).While I am a fan, I think the internal connection is overplayed. There is no indication of deeper or higher level internal work that I have seen, just excellent...oh hell...superior- technical skill.
Dan
P.S. ...."The Nairiki chapter was ommited..." Surprise!
Tobs, bet ya wish you could go back in time and buy that book now. Not that you needed it, but these tidbits to tie things together are priceless.

Last edited by DH : 09-12-2011 at 07:49 PM.
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Old 09-13-2011, 02:06 AM   #71
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

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Tim Jester wrote: View Post
Is there an exact description of what IP is on this forum? If so, please post it so we can all be on the same page.
IP as it is used here on Aikiweb is at the most basic level: powering movement by using the support of the ground or your body weight through a relaxed yet connected body. There are more than enough directions to take it from there, though.
It's a bit like saying that playing the guitar is pressing strings with your left hand and plucking then with your right hand. It's not untrue, but it's not necessarily music either.

For further catch-up reading: everything by Mike Sigman (including his blog here on Aikiweb) and everything by Dan Harden. And plenty of posts by other people, but you'll find those in most threads with posts of those two gentlemen. :-)
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Old 09-13-2011, 07:18 AM   #72
ewolput
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

Most of the people see judo as a "sports game", but in older times it was quite different. They spoke how to use force, strength and power. They had a kata to cultivate "ki"
The text below is from a study about the forgotten judo kata : go-no-kata

Ju no kata and go no kata.
The efficient study of these two Kata would have given the practitioners the key of how to use their own physical force in a manner consistent with the theory of yielding. In some older texts the Go-no-Kata is called Go Ju-no-Kata, emphasizing the correlation between the use of force and the study of gentleness that is in its exercises. This kata is thought to be the only Judo kata intended to assist in the development of actual physical force, but also to use correctly the force of Uke during the action. Tenth Dan Nagaoka recommended practicing this kata before every lesson like a warming up exercise. Nagaoka also wrote that the Go-no-Kata contributes to increased willpower, physical force, and ki.


Interesting?

Eddy
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Old 09-13-2011, 08:23 AM   #73
dps
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

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Eddy Wolput wrote: View Post
Most of the people see judo as a "sports game", but in older times it was quite different. They spoke how to use force, strength and power. They had a kata to cultivate "ki"
The text below is from a study about the forgotten judo kata : go-no-kata

Ju no kata and go no kata.
The efficient study of these two Kata would have given the practitioners the key of how to use their own physical force in a manner consistent with the theory of yielding. In some older texts the Go-no-Kata is called Go Ju-no-Kata, emphasizing the correlation between the use of force and the study of gentleness that is in its exercises. This kata is thought to be the only Judo kata intended to assist in the development of actual physical force, but also to use correctly the force of Uke during the action. Tenth Dan Nagaoka recommended practicing this kata before every lesson like a warming up exercise. Nagaoka also wrote that the Go-no-Kata contributes to increased willpower, physical force, and ki.


Interesting?

Eddy
Ju-no-kata before 1940

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7Le9LeVsEY

dps
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Old 09-13-2011, 08:57 AM   #74
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
For further catch-up reading: everything by Mike Sigman (including his blog here on Aikiweb) and everything by Dan Harden. And plenty of posts by other people, but you'll find those in most threads with posts of those two gentlemen. :-)
The only problem I have with all that is that none of them really agree on what is what so who do you listen to??

-It seems to be all about semantics!
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Old 09-13-2011, 09:28 AM   #75
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

About Go-no-Kata:

http://howdoarmbar.blogspot.com/2010...ata-go-no.html

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