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Old 09-09-2011, 12:18 PM   #26
gates
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
I would be more inclined to attempt to seriously answer the question if you hadn't been around these discussions long enough to have seen this asked and answered several times before...

not sure if serious or just being sarcastic...
If he is being Sarcastic I will warm to him.
Cheeky monkey a bit like Mifune naturally swinging from that guy.
"Weight underside" a concept well coined by Tohei I do believe.

Takes one to know one !!!

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Old 09-09-2011, 12:24 PM   #27
Keith Larman
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

And just to toss out a novice view...

I've seen tremendously good stuff from people who were able to attain a level of relaxation combined with incredible timing. When it works it is truly sublime. But the IS stuff seems to be something else entirely. That said being able to relax the musculature and allow the "something else" to take over is part of it. So I see guys doing stuff that is relaxed the point of silliness and who are totally ineffective except against their students who "attack" accordingly. So they see the relaxed part and think "oh, that's it". Within our group our late sensei changed the translation of Tohei's principle of "relax completely" to "controlled relaxation" because he felt it better conveyed what Tohei meant in his conversations in Japanese on the topic with him. So the question becomes what is that "controlled" part when you're otherwise relaxed? I see that in Mifune when he's able to shut down the bigger guys. Then also when he goes in to his throw he doesn't suddenly tense up. He's connected completely, controlled, but relaxed and has kuzushi before the other guy realizes it. It reminds me very much of a good sleight of hand artist. What you see of the trick is actually the end result and not the hard part. So it's easy to confuse the "tada!" part with the actual difficult skills that allowed it to happen so easily...

Now I'm rambling.

I see that video and just shrug. Looks pretty damned talented to me. And it ain't brute strength. And it ain't just timing. And it ain't just "relaxation". He's fully connected internally and is able to connect to the other guy completely allowing him to easily imbalance and throw with minimal effort. Connection. Oneness of body and energy and attachment. Aiki...

Mongo go back to work now... Let others debate meaning of life...

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Old 09-09-2011, 01:00 PM   #28
gates
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Within our group our late sensei changed the translation of Tohei's principle of "relax completely" to "controlled relaxation" because he felt it better conveyed what Tohei meant in his conversations in Japanese on the topic with him. So the question becomes what is that "controlled" part when you're otherwise relaxed?
When you do unbendable arm you cant let your arm relax completely it just bends. Given the great threads about the fascia system perhaps we could re translate 'extend ki' as 'Relax muscles - engage total body fascia system'.

Relaxation as 'weight underside' does not mean '(relaxed) dead weight'. Playing either 'game' and you can start to work things.

I wonder how many of the throws he uses to down the Judo guys are legal in a Judo comp?

Last edited by gates : 09-09-2011 at 01:02 PM.

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Old 09-09-2011, 01:32 PM   #29
Keith Larman
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

Quote:
Keith Gates wrote: View Post
When you do unbendable arm you cant let your arm relax completely it just bends. Given the great threads about the fascia system perhaps we could re translate 'extend ki' as 'Relax muscles - engage total body fascia system'.
FWIW Rod Kobayashi "retranslated" a couple of the principles for us. So instead of "extend ki" he said "let your ki flow". The idea to get that feeling throughout your body of "connectedness" to allow the "ki" to move. Instead of "weight underside" he went with "settle down". From what I understand he liked the emotional connotation of "settle down" as well as the idea of everything simply settling in to its "proper" place. So it's not about "getting low" as much as a way of standing allowing things to settle in to their proper places. So add those in to the idea of "controlled" relaxation.

I've always found it interesting that he translated these things differently from the "official" ki society translations. He was bilingual and apparently felt that the translations didn't always quite convey the meaning correctly.

Just a gigantic fwiw. Interesting glimpses looking back... Seeing through new eyes and all that. I'd love to have a time machine and go back 35 years and ask a few questions...

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Old 09-09-2011, 03:31 PM   #30
sakumeikan
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

Dear All,
Before I entered into Aikido I studied Judo. My teacher , A Mr Tam Mc Dermott during the thirteen years I trained with him I never saw him being thrown by anyone.He was registered disabled and walking down the street he was always shuffling along due to arthritis.Once on the mat he was transformed.He could give you advanced notice of what throw he was going to use and despite all defences , he always bounced you off the mat.He was not a big man , but a genius at judo.I also met Saburo Matsushita , Anton Geesink , a giant but very light on his feet , Kisaburo Watanabe [a great stylist ]and for me the best ever Kenshiro Abbe. He was a great Budo man.An excellent Aikidoka.See Henry Ellis web site.
As it happens, one of my contemporaries, George Kerr,has received 10th Dan .He is now in his 70s.All these men were fluid in their waza and almost impossible to throw.Good posture, good weight distribution , coupled with good timing was the key to their success.
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Old 09-10-2011, 12:11 AM   #31
gates
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Not like the "shinkickers" who mistake judo with soccer... ouch!!!

Lots of old clips in that youtube channel. Worth watching.
Thanks Demetrio for sharing.

http://www.youtube.com/user/nicholai...24/X4Q96TQoT6s

The Mifune video had inspired me to pull out an old book I was given about 15 years ago and was looking at it whilst watching the videos, what a nice coincidence to see somebody has kindly re-digitized it.

I know this is all off topic but it reminded me of a little story. We used to play fight with friends as a teenagers. I had spent all afternoon studdying Hisa Guruma from the book. My friend attacked me wanting a wrestling match, I was not in the mood. He did some weight training and was quite a bit bigger than me, I was tired and feeling bad. He would not let up so I decided to try to employ my new technique.

I finished the technique by jumping in the air and landing on his shoulders with both my knees, I then slapped him hard across the face and exclaimed "have you had enough?" to which he replied more meekishly than I had ever seen him, "yes, yes, you win, you win".

Given the conversations about the validity of learning from videos and books. I think you definitely can learn some aspects and techniques from videos and books especially relatively simple unbalancing techniques such as Hisa Guruma.

Enjoy the journey
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Old 09-10-2011, 01:17 AM   #32
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
BTW,

How do you know Mifune is showing IS watching him in an old movie

It has to be felt.
Just making a guess? You have any other explanations why a slight old man is able to stop throws from a younger bigger guy and is able, almost at will, to throw the same guy around? Would love to hear your explanations on this one.

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Old 09-10-2011, 06:41 AM   #33
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Just making a guess? You have any other explanations why a slight old man is able to stop throws from a younger bigger guy and is able, almost at will, to throw the same guy around? Would love to hear your explanations on this one.
I have alternative theories, but I wasn't asking about if Mifune had it or not.

I'm asking about posters ability to affirm he had it from watching Mifune perform, when the consensus was, to date, that telling aiki usage from another skills (excellent timing, leverage, technique, etc) like the people Joe mentioned in his post; or psychological manipulation (and there are cases of people using "headology" and calling it aiki), can be only done in person.

Keith answered:

Quote:
And once you've felt it enough times in enough contexts you start to see more and more of the tell tale signs.
Now, we have something to work on.

Keith, In the youtube channel I linked there are various old judo films. Would you be so kind to watch them (no need to hurry, take your time cause this is not something urgent, only historical curiosity) and if you see another case of aiki in old judo point to it?

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 09-10-2011 at 06:45 AM.

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Old 09-10-2011, 07:20 AM   #34
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I have alternative theories, but I wasn't asking about if Mifune had it or not.

I'm asking about posters ability to affirm he had it from watching Mifune perform, when the consensus was, to date, that telling aiki usage from another skills (excellent timing, leverage, technique, etc) like the people Joe mentioned in his post; or psychological manipulation (and there are cases of people using "headology" and calling it aiki), can be only done in person.

Keith answered:

Now, we have something to work on.

Keith, In the youtube channel I linked there are various old judo films. Would you be so kind to watch them (no need to hurry, take your time cause this is not something urgent, only historical curiosity) and if you see another case of aiki in old judo point to it?
No offense, but your post does not make sense. Can you make it clearer so I can understand?

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Old 09-10-2011, 08:21 AM   #35
gregstec
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

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Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Actually in a couple of those clips he does some throws in a very distinctive fashion. Minimal movement, total connection, and he takes a much larger fella off instantaneously. Having been thrown that way via brute force and having been on the receiving end of someone doing it with tremendous grace and elegance using something other than the brute force, it is unmistakable. Okay, can't be 100% sure. Nor can I be 100% sure there is no such thing as unicorns. However, as you said, it has to be felt. And once you've felt it enough times in enough contexts you start to see more and more of the tell tale signs.

So yeah, the guy has some serious skills. Seems obvious from the video.
I am with Keith here - it is very obvious that the man has extreme talent, and there are clues in there that may lead the experienced IS guy to think IS is going on, but the only true way to know what is really happening is to feel it yourself.

Greg
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Old 09-10-2011, 08:30 AM   #36
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
No offense, but your post does not make sense. Can you make it clearer so I can understand?
Is there aiki in any of the other old movies available in that youtube channel? Hirano had it? Oda had it? What about Nagaoka?

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Old 09-10-2011, 08:38 AM   #37
gregstec
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
FWIW Rod Kobayashi "retranslated" a couple of the principles for us. So instead of "extend ki" he said "let your ki flow". The idea to get that feeling throughout your body of "connectedness" to allow the "ki" to move. Instead of "weight underside" he went with "settle down". From what I understand he liked the emotional connotation of "settle down" as well as the idea of everything simply settling in to its "proper" place. So it's not about "getting low" as much as a way of standing allowing things to settle in to their proper places. So add those in to the idea of "controlled" relaxation.

I've always found it interesting that he translated these things differently from the "official" ki society translations. He was bilingual and apparently felt that the translations didn't always quite convey the meaning correctly.

Just a gigantic fwiw. Interesting glimpses looking back... Seeing through new eyes and all that. I'd love to have a time machine and go back 35 years and ask a few questions...
I also have found Tohie's nomenclature of the four principles somewhat misleading and hard to truly understand, so I view them as follows:

1. Keep One Point: Place your mind in your center and move and look at everything from there.

2. Keep Weight Underside: Think down, simply allow all your weight to settle down as you mentioned.

3. Relax Completely: Soft extension to take the slack out of the body while removing all muscle tension.

4. Extend Ki: Mentally fill the soft extended body with ki and extend it outside the body from center in all directions to develop awareness.

Greg
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Old 09-10-2011, 09:02 AM   #38
Keith Larman
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

Ya know, Demetrio, this is why this stuff gets tiring for *everyone* involved. It's not like we're talking about absolutes. I've seen a *lot* of really experienced judoka who could do really amazing things. I do subscribe to Ellis' idea in his "Hidden in Plain Sight" book that through long term proper ukemi people can develop a "different" physicality. And I have little doubt many people in many arts develop some of these abilities to some extent or another.

Whether they *focus* on those things and try to develop it explicitly is another issue entirely.

I have *long* argued that the problem with this stuff within Aikido is that those who could do it to some extent or another lacked a complete and comprehensive framework from within which to transmit the information to their students. That doesn't mean there wasn't some transmission to some. Just that many didn't "get it" simply because the person who "had it" lacked the ability to communicate what they were doing. They "felt it" because for whatever reason they had developed the ability/sensitivity to do it. But lacking that development the students were handicapped. The teacher says "just relax and extend ki". The student says "what the hell does that mean?" The teacher feels it. The student doesn't.

I have trained with people in JJ who have remarkably subtle body skills, something I'd call akin to aiki. Whether it is their primary tool or just something they developed varies with each person. And I'm sure as hell not the judge of who's got it and who doesn't.

I see Mifune doing stuff that reminds me greatly of times I've been thrown in incredibly subtle ways not using just muscle, timing and technique. I see the attacker's balance taken before the throw. I see no jerk, no "power" move, just a clean, solid connection taking a much larger man down. Something from his very core.

I've seen similar stuff in a some martial artists. Usually the very experienced, long term guys who trained very, very hard for many years who over time softened up in to amazingly subtle artists. Based on *my* experiences and what *I've* felt I have little problem saying they probably have developed some degree of the body and sensitivity to do some of this stuff. Is it pure? Is it canonical? Hell, I don't know. I don't care either.

It's not either/or. And this sort of petty bickering and absolutist crap is simply silly.

Please forget I ever posted a thought. Make your own minds up. Lord knows I keep going out and getting hands on different people and I've had to swallow my pride many times already. Will likely have to do it again. So on that note, damatte keikoshiro. No, I'm not saying that to anyone else. Just myself.

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Old 09-10-2011, 09:12 AM   #39
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Is there aiki in any of the other old movies available in that youtube channel? Hirano had it? Oda had it? What about Nagaoka?
Sorry I don't know these guys. I'm done with this thread. Thanks

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Old 09-10-2011, 09:25 AM   #40
Ellis Amdur
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

Umm - one point that nobody has considered, apparently. This was probably not randori. I spoke with a judoka many years ago, who was, in the 60's, right below the top tier (didn't quite make it to the Olympic trials). He was, at that time, about 180-190 pounds. I asked him if he'd ever done randori with Mifune. He said that he had. And I asked him if he had been helpless, "like the guy in the film." He replied, "Mifune sensei was an old man. He was incredible for his age, but he was old. Of course, I didn't go all out. We took falls for him. Sort of like aikido."
Best
Ellis Amdur

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Old 09-10-2011, 09:44 AM   #41
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

Ellis, you could have waited a bit...

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Old 09-10-2011, 10:00 AM   #42
dps
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Umm - one point that nobody has considered, apparently. This was probably not randori. I spoke with a judoka many years ago, who was, in the 60's, right below the top tier (didn't quite make it to the Olympic trials). He was, at that time, about 180-190 pounds. I asked him if he'd ever done randori with Mifune. He said that he had. And I asked him if he had been helpless, "like the guy in the film." He replied, "Mifune sensei was an old man. He was incredible for his age, but he was old. Of course, I didn't go all out. We took falls for him. Sort of like aikido."
Best
Ellis Amdur
Which should be a reminder to all not to trust videos to reveal all and as you get older beware of people younger than you telling you how great you are. They may be just humoring the old man or woman.

dps

dps

Last edited by dps : 09-10-2011 at 10:05 AM.
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Old 09-10-2011, 10:30 AM   #43
Allen Beebe
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

BTW, I believe I remember Jon Bluming, who trained under Mifune and others at the Kodokan, while appreciating and respecting Mifune as a teacher (He enjoys telling a story of seeing Mifune lovingly tending the flowers in his garden and thinking to himself, "Damn! I hope I never wind up like THAT old fart!" Only to tearfully be stopped cold, decades later, by that very recollection as he (Jon Bluming) was lovingly tending the flowers in his garden!) , scorned the idea that he (Mifune) was somehow "superhuman" in ability, similarly describing him as small and old and therefore necessarily needing to being shown due physical deference in the dojo.

Interestingly enough, Jon Bluming also visited the Aikido Hombu dojo having heard that Ueshiba Morihei was reported to have "superhuman" abilities. If I remember correctly, after observing a demonstration by Ueshiba Kisshomaru, Jon Bluming basically stated that the whole affair looked like "fair dancing" to him (or something along those lines) and asked if Ueshiba Morihei or anybody else wouldn't mind showing him personally the superhuman efficaciousness of Aikido . . . instead he was shown the door.

Consequently Aikido was not one of the many arts (Judo, Karate, Kendo, Jodo, Iaido) that Jon Bluming studied to the Yudansha level and beyond . . .

When I contrast his behavior in the Aikido dojo vs the Judo dojo I wonder if the difference in behavior was due to the claims made by the practitioners at the time. Perhaps in the Judo dojo the claim made for Mifune sensei by Judoka was that he was a phenomenal technician and teacher, while perhaps the claim made for Ueshiba sensei by Aikidoka was that he was "superhuman."

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Old 09-10-2011, 10:33 AM   #44
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

The discussion is about Mifune's trademark judo, and what he used to give power to his judo.
We all acknowledge the toll that age takes on our physical abilities. However, the deference to an old man should in no way discredit or diminish the value of Mifune's very real skill, gamesmanship and knowledge, or convince the uninitiated that "IP" and aiki do not exist.
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Old 09-10-2011, 10:39 AM   #45
Chris Li
 
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
FWIW Rod Kobayashi "retranslated" a couple of the principles for us. So instead of "extend ki" he said "let your ki flow". The idea to get that feeling throughout your body of "connectedness" to allow the "ki" to move. Instead of "weight underside" he went with "settle down". From what I understand he liked the emotional connotation of "settle down" as well as the idea of everything simply settling in to its "proper" place. So it's not about "getting low" as much as a way of standing allowing things to settle in to their proper places. So add those in to the idea of "controlled" relaxation.

I've always found it interesting that he translated these things differently from the "official" ki society translations. He was bilingual and apparently felt that the translations didn't always quite convey the meaning correctly.

Just a gigantic fwiw. Interesting glimpses looking back... Seeing through new eyes and all that. I'd love to have a time machine and go back 35 years and ask a few questions...
FWIW, here are the originals:

1、臍下の一点に心'しずめ統一する。
'、全身の力'完全に抜く。
"、身"の総ての部分の重み'、その最下のおく。
"、氣'出す。

"Let your ki flow" would be a pretty liberal re-interpretation (not saying it's wrong).

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-10-2011, 10:49 AM   #46
Allen Beebe
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
FWIW, here are the originals:

1、臍下の一点に心'しずめ統一する。
'、全身の力'完全に抜く。
"、身"の総ての部分の重み'、その最下のおく。
"、氣'出す。

"Let your ki flow" would be a pretty liberal re-interpretation (not saying it's wrong).

Best,

Chris
Hey Chris,

This is the second time your post appears to be "garble gook" on my computer. The first time I thought you MEANT to post "garble gook." but now I've figured out that you are probably posting Japanese . . . which normally appears without problem on my computer.

Do you have any guess as to why I'm having this problem or any solutions?

Thanks,
Allen

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Old 09-10-2011, 11:02 AM   #47
Chris Li
 
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
Hey Chris,

This is the second time your post appears to be "garble gook" on my computer. The first time I thought you MEANT to post "garble gook." but now I've figured out that you are probably posting Japanese . . . which normally appears without problem on my computer.

Do you have any guess as to why I'm having this problem or any solutions?

Thanks,
Allen
Just doing my bit to protect the secrets

It has something to do with the forum software, but I'm not sure what. Here's a link with the Japanese (and some explanation - I haven't read through it, it just came up on Google):

http://www.ac.auone-net.jp/~aikida/touitudou/touitu.htm

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-10-2011, 11:03 AM   #48
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
The discussion is about Mifune's trademark judo, and what he used to give power to his judo.
Yes

Quote:
We all acknowledge the toll that age takes on our physical abilities. However, the deference to an old man should in no way discredit or diminish the value of Mifune's very real skill, gamesmanship and knowledge, or convince the uninitiated that "IP" and aiki do not exist.
Of course.

But also, is about the reliability of the expert witnesses who are delivering expert evidence about who has IP based on what they see on video.

Remember there is not possible to feel Mifune anymore. Expert witnesses and remembrances of the people who trained with him is the only thing available today.

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Old 09-10-2011, 11:20 AM   #49
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
Interestingly enough, Jon Bluming also visited the Aikido Hombu dojo having heard that Ueshiba Morihei was reported to have "superhuman" abilities. If I remember correctly, after observing a demonstration by Ueshiba Kisshomaru, Jon Bluming basically stated that the whole affair looked like "fair dancing" to him (or something along those lines) and asked if Ueshiba Morihei or anybody else wouldn't mind showing him personally the superhuman efficaciousness of Aikido . . . instead he was shown the door.
Bluming interview (extract):

Q: To impress the Westerners who were attracted to martial arts, do you think that some Japanese personalities have greatly exaggerated their capabilities and historical facts with unbelievable stories?

A: Definitely yes! And the worst place is Asia. But there are plenty who really are what they say. Please allow me to tell you a funny example of this. My wife works for the Dutch-Chinese travel office. One day while I was waiting for her, I picked up a Chinese magazine about sports. I saw some Chinese wushu, and there was an article in memoriam of a 100-year-old Chinese wushu teacher who had passed away. He was very famous in his district because he had defeated a tiger with his bare hands many years before. I would have loved to talked to the man and taken some lessons from him, but I am afraid I would not have been able to keep a straight face! In another magazine, some time later, I found the same story. This time it was a black bear. Well, it’s up to you guys to believe it or not. Some wushu people said they believed it, and that’s the kind the money grabbers love so much because they pay a lot of money for this crap. I remember that Draeger Sensei took me to the Ueshiba dojo for aikido classes. I looked on in amazement. The movements were very nice, but on the street nobody is going to run around you and jump all over himself when taken by the wrist! I asked the sensei if I could fight one of his students or his son, but he told me they did not fight. I asked them if that’s how they did their championships, but they said they didn’t. So I told them that I could take dancing lessons in Holland. To be honest, in the modern fashion of aikijitsu, there are some very good and real street-fighting techniques that are useful. I even studied some, so that has changed for the better. This is simply an example to show you how those stupid stories come into the world. When I was training under Oyama Sensei for several weeks, he invited Bill and I into the office upstairs. While there, he showed us a film of him fighting a bull at Tatyama prefecture in 1952. To start, it was not a bull but an ox. That is a big difference, my friend! The ox was visibly scared because oxes are kept as pets in farm country, and they let them fight each other under strict rules like sumo. As soon as they put their heads together to push each other over a certain spot in the ring and there is some blood, they stop the fight and care for their pets. To hit one that is very much used to being stroked emotionally is — in my opinion — very wrong. I love animals. Oyama Sensei never killed the ox; they did that at the slaughterhouse. But he seriously hurt the animal. The ox did not want to fight and never attempted to do anything. That’s sad. I told Sensei Draeger not to show this to Westerners because they would not like it. He looked at me and said that he [Oyama] was not completely crazy, and we had a good dinner after that. Oyama explained that this occurred at the start of kyokushin karate, and he needed the publicity stunt. He added that he would never do something like that again.

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 09-10-2011 at 11:23 AM.

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Old 09-10-2011, 01:27 PM   #50
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Re: Is Mifune showing IP/Aiki

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
FWIW, here are the originals:

1、臍下の一点に心'しずめ統一する。
'、全身の力'完全に抜く。
"、身"の総ての部分の重み'、その最下のおく。
"、氣'出す。

"Let your ki flow" would be a pretty liberal re-interpretation (not saying it's wrong).

Best,

Chris
Chris:

I wouldn't think of arguing the point and I think you are correct. I should probably have added that Kobayashi's "retranslation" wasn't just an issue of translation. It was also due to his training with Tohei here and in Japan. And also late night conversations over beverages. Kobayashi apparently felt that his version better conveyed to his students what he had learned from Tohei. None of these concepts are easy to convey to begin with and there is a lot of subtlety involved. There is also, of course, the difference of how people come to understand these things. Kobayashi felt his "version" of the principle was better for his students given how he was teaching. Now of course I agree but I come from that lineage so that shouldn't be surprising as it fits the larger framework of my understanding better. The larger meta-issue is whether it in fact does map better to whatever the heck it is that's happening when we do that voodoo we doooooo... Shu be do be do...

Me, I don't have a clue. Just tryin' to figure it out for myself.

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