BJJ and Judo

What, if anything, did BJJ add to the Judo from which it was derived? Is it just Judo through the Vale Tudo crucible?

Found this to be interesting.

wikipedia wrote: One day, when Helio Gracie was 16 years old, a student showed up for class when Carlos was not around. Helio, who had memorized all the techniques from watching his brothers teach, offered to start the class. When the class was over, Carlos showed up and apologized for his delay. The student asked for Helio to continue being his instructor, Helio Gracie then gradually developed Gracie Jiu Jitsu as an adaptation from Judo as he was unable to do many Judo moves

So, more or less, Gracie "Judo," itself a derivative of Kano "Jujutsu?"

Yes, it seems from most accounts that BJJ is a "derivative".

As with everything "Martial". I think that it all depends on your perspective.

I'm not a historian on Judo/Jiu Jitsu...and it is generally regarded that Maeda brought Judo to Brazil...however, I have heard stories recently of others that came around the same time and that "BJJ" was not only a product of that lineage.

I think it is reasonable to assume that Judo was freely taught in brazil and developed in many schools.

Of course, the Gracies get full credit as they were the ones who successfully harnessed it and eventually ensured it's success in the U.S.

I think that BJJ is probably a little more than just Judo through the Vale Tudo Crucible.

Culture has alot to do with it (and history). I personally feel (without any real basis) that WWII had a dramatic impact on martial arts coming out of Japan...and most of it was negative.

Then you have Brazil down there......independent minded, innovative, and unfettered wtih politics etc.....so...

you can argue...was Kano Jiu Jitsu preserved or did it evolve?

not sure of the answer on that one.

Part of the romance of BJJ as a fighting sport is that it is derived from pre-WWII Judo, and as it was practiced as a sport there was more of an emphasis on finishing to submission and less on how well throws were performed.

It would be interesting to get a handle on exactly how pre-WWII and modern Judo differ in technical syllabus and training methodology, and how the changes in competition rules drove the evolution of both arts.

Although BJJ has it's roots in Judo, there are also some wrestling influences (from what I understand Carlos Gracie introduced the wrestling elements). In addition, BJJ's focus on ground work has resulted in a great deal of technical innovation which modern Judo has not achieved.

However, based on my own experience with both BJJ and Judo players, the Judoka has a significant advantage standing. The ability of a talented Judoka to send your ass flying is something a talented BJJ player with no Judo background may not have.

Again, this is based on my own experience and a small sample set of the BJJ/Judo communities.

Anyone can find and read the official history of BJJ.

The greater perspective I gain on martial arts, and the more I ponder it, the more I am convinced that early development of BJJ was deliberate and more marketing than anything else.

That is not to say that true genius wasn't involved. Recognizing the direct advantage that the ground affords you seemed to be beyond the grasp of most.

Within that context, a skilled practitioner can dominate almost any unskilled opponent regardless of size, strength, aggressiveness, and physical ability. And that had a significant impact on the martial arts community.

But the street fighting aspect is almost certainly fantasy. And, frankly, BJJ's effectiveness in vale tudo/MMA is limited.

Richard Stevens wrote: Although BJJ has it's roots in Judo, there are also some wrestling influences (from what I understand Carlos Gracie introduced the wrestling elements). In addition, BJJ's focus on ground work has resulted in a great deal of technical innovation which modern Judo has not achieved. However, based on my own experience with both BJJ and Judo players, the Judoka has a significant advantage standing. The ability of a talented Judoka to send your ass flying is something a talented BJJ player with no Judo background may not have. Again, this is based on my own experience and a small sample set of the BJJ/Judo communities.

Rolls Gracie is credited by most being the guy that changed BJJ to what it is today. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls_Gracie

agree with the Judo experience...however, YMMV. as a Purple Belt BJJer I entered a few Judo Tournaments as a "white belt" judo player and had no problems with the Judo Black Belts with the exception of one guy who wias very experienced, and even at that I managed to score on him. (Not trying to start a fight over the subject).

That said, an acknowledge weakness of BJJ is standup for the most part, but go out and study with guys like Saulo Riberio and you won't find that missing too much...very well rounded.

Unfortunately, most people's exposure to BJJ these days is the lower ranking guys who have been studying this second hand or from guys in the U.S. that have only been doing it for 10 years or less and have only a limited grasp of the breadth of the "old school" curriculum.

It was a weakness in my game so, I went to a traditional Judo School for a while and it was very worthwhile!

Michael Varin wrote: Anyone can find and read the official history of BJJ. The greater perspective I gain on martial arts, and the more I ponder it, the more I am convinced that early development of BJJ was deliberate and more marketing than anything else. That is not to say that true genius wasn't involved. Recognizing the direct advantage that the ground affords you seemed to be beyond the grasp of most. Within that context, a skilled practitioner can dominate almost any unskilled opponent regardless of size, strength, aggressiveness, and physical ability. And that had a significant impact on the martial arts community. But the street fighting aspect is almost certainly fantasy. And, frankly, BJJ's effectiveness in vale tudo/MMA is limited.

Not sure I agree, but of course I also don't have the historical proof to back it up. I think the marketing aspect came about later in the game in the 70s and 80s.

As seen in the early UFCs yea there was alot of genius involved in drawing in those "inexperienced" fighters to play the Gracies' game....however, that does not mean that there was not some real fighting going on.

I personally think that it is not fantasy and I believe BJJ has some very real applications in fighting. Limited in Vale Tudo/MMA?

Well, sure...everything has limitations...however I think the fact that just about every major fighter has spent some time in a BJJ dojo and many successful fighters are brown belts or higher in BJJ might mean something.

Of course, there is alot of aspects to fighitng and BJJ as practiced by most only hits upon a very narrow part of the spectrum...however, it hits upon some very important parts, and it provides a good framework to build upon...which is why you see it as a foundation today of most MMAers.

Just wanted to say a quick thanks to folks for posting! I enjoyed reading what you all had to say!
Take care,
Matt

Kevin Leavitt wrote: Not sure I agree, but of course I also don't have the historical proof to back it up. I think the marketing aspect came about later in the game in the 70s and 80s. As seen in the early UFCs yea there was alot of genius involved in drawing in those "inexperienced" fighters to play the Gracies' game....however, that does not mean that there was not some real fighting going on. I personally think that it is not fantasy and I believe BJJ has some very real applications in fighting. Limited in Vale Tudo/MMA? Well, sure...everything has limitations...however I think the fact that just about every major fighter has spent some time in a BJJ dojo and many successful fighters are brown belts or higher in BJJ might mean something. Of course, there is alot of aspects to fighitng and BJJ as practiced by most only hits upon a very narrow part of the spectrum...however, it hits upon some very important parts, and it provides a good framework to build upon...which is why you see it as a foundation today of most MMAers.

Good to see you posting again, Kevin; I hope you're well.

I recently went to a local judo class (i've long been curious about learning some less subtle martial techniques - plus I can't really afford to travel to aikido, and I need exercise, too...).
The ne waza randori was so much fun; honestly: I couldn't believe it.
It was just trying out techniques, trying to get one that worked - I guess that's why I enjoyed it so much.

The standing stuff: I had no clue about; there was no kata taught - just uchikomi, then standing randori.
I'd grab the guy's gi - then have no idea what I was meant to be doing, ha.
Since that class, i've been looking to find a BJJ class I can go to.

Anyway: enough about me...

There are very few BJJ-focussed fighters in the UFC, for example, who are very good: Demian Meia is one.
I think most people are now wise to how to maintain distance with striking, or know some basic defensive tactics.
If you watch Anderson Silva Vs Demian Meia, for example, you'll see that it doesn't matter how good Meia is on the ground - because he's afraid of getting hit/knocked out by Anderson Silva on the way in.

There was also the recent fight between Renzo Gracie and Matt Hughes: Gracie is a sixth (6th) Dan in BJJ - but the fight went the distance, without once going to the ground...
When the original UFC champion, Royce Gracie returned to the event and fought that same opponent (Hughes) in 2006 (eleven years after he last fought there), he was completely dominated on the ground, and chose to have his head bludgeoned, rather than be submitted by juji-gatame.

I'm really excited about Roger Gracie, however: he's only had four fights, but won them all by submission; he seems to know how to enter, get close, stay attached, and smother an opponent.
He has a big fight coming up on the 10th September.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Gracie

Now: to learn how to choke someone when they tuck their chin into their chest...

Thanks Graham,

I agree, there are no fighters that successfully use a "BJJ only" strategy. My only point was that most good fighters have a BJJ background and have spent some time learning BJJ as it has proven to be a decent training methodology for ground fighting.

Royce had it easy in the beginning as the guys that went into the ring with him, with the exception of really only Ken Shamrock had no real experience in fighting in that manner, so he could use a very simple strategy.

Today, if you look at the evolution of both rules and strategies, alot of the ground game has shifted back to stand up for sure.

Getting a little off topic from the OP...but I think it is good o discuss this when you are looking at the importance of ne waza training in the overall grand scheme of things.

sorry...didn't mean BJJ is a good strategy from "ground fighting"...that it has proven to be a good strategy for the overall development of a MMA fighter. BJJ is about more than just ground fighting BTW. In a good school you will spend time standing and clinching and transitioning from closing the distance to gaining dominance in a fight.

That said, yes...most of the time you will spend in ne waza....because it allows for learning what is really important in BJJ and that is developing the proper "feel", responses, proprioceptions etc.

Graham Jenkins wrote: Now: to learn how to choke someone when they tuck their chin into their chest...

You still put the choke on them but tweak their lower jaw causing a lot of pain!!

Another fun thing to do is to apply pressure to the nerve behind the ear near the jaw. Some people will pop their head up like a turtle when you do that!!

-

Tim Jester wrote: You still put the choke on them but tweak their lower jaw causing a lot of pain!! Another fun thing to do is to apply pressure to the nerve behind the ear near the jaw. Some people will pop their head up like a turtle when you do that!! -

Hahahaha.
I don't think the rules would allow that...
I tried to pull a guy's forehead back with my hand, and he told me it was illegal; from what i've heard, competitive judo has made lots and lots of things illegal: I read recently that they'd made a technique illegal just because there was this big Mongolian guy who kept using it (I think it was a bearhug-type technique).

This is him (I think):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xhm0Nbs3J5U

You can no longer grab the legs/trousers of an opponent, I believe, on account of this man's success.

When you forbid so many techniques, it makes me wonder what the purpose of judo is.

Kevin Leavitt wrote: Thanks Graham, I agree, there are no fighters that successfully use a "BJJ only" strategy. My only point was that most good fighters have a BJJ background and have spent some time learning BJJ as it has proven to be a decent training methodology for ground fighting. Royce had it easy in the beginning as the guys that went into the ring with him, with the exception of really only Ken Shamrock had no real experience in fighting in that manner, so he could use a very simple strategy. Today, if you look at the evolution of both rules and strategies, alot of the ground game has shifted back to stand up for sure. Getting a little off topic from the OP...but I think it is good o discuss this when you are looking at the importance of ne waza training in the overall grand scheme of things.

Oh absolutely, yeah: BJJ/groundwork is an essential part of a skillset.
You get great strikers like Anderson Silva, Chuck Liddell, and Lyoto Machida who all have/had great defence from takedowns, and the ability to get back up (or submit someone, if need be); they wouldn't be able to strike without it.

Then you get someone like Dan Hardy, who is a pure striker, and has lost four in a row, now (three times defeated by groundwork; once knocked out).
I keep wondering if he's learnt even the basic defence - but no: he never has done.

I don't think the early UFCs showed that BJJ was the best system; only that it was better, under those rules, against those unsuspecting opponents.
His last fight in the early days, against Dan Severn, a wrestler, took him a good while to win - and since then, a great many sportsmen have got involved in the sport, and well, we've seen the results: when was the last Gracie MMA champion?

One of my favorite matches that I used to show my Combatives Classes was Tim Sylvia vs Jeff Monson. Monson is a superior grappler. Siliva defeated him, not by becoming a better grappler, but simply learning how to sprawl and avoid takedowns. He wore Monson out who what shorter and basically had a grappling strategy for the fight.

It demonstrates that in Rules based MMA fighitng having a game plan and a strategy is paramount. You no longer have to be a good grappler...you simply need a strategy to defeat the guy you are fighting.

Graham Jenkins wrote: Hahahaha. I don't think the rules would allow that... I tried to pull a guy's forehead back with my hand, and he told me it was illegal; from what i've heard, competitive judo has made lots and lots of things illegal: I read recently that they'd made a technique illegal just because there was this big Mongolian guy who kept using it (I think it was a bearhug-type technique). This is him (I think): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xhm0Nbs3J5U You can no longer grab the legs/trousers of an opponent, I believe, on account of this man's success. When you forbid so many techniques, it makes me wonder what the purpose of judo is.

From what I heard it was to get back to throwing. So many guys (wrestlers) were coming into Judo and having success by doing sacrifice throws and leg takedowns. I believe the Judo folks (Committee) wanted to get back to the basics of Judo and make it so you had to concentrate on the techniques and details of the throws.

Yea I learned the hard way when trying to convert someone out of a turtle by grabbing the back of their gi color and pulling them straight back...that it is a no, no in Judo.

One thing I like about Judo Ne Waza is you have to be decisively engaged in attacking your opponent and you need to do it fast and good. If not, well you are standing back up.

In BJJ you can screw around alot and take your time getting to a position you want. I think Judo Ne Waza is good practice in this respect.

Kevin Leavitt wrote: From what I heard it was to get back to throwing. So many guys (wrestlers) were coming into Judo and having success by doing sacrifice throws and leg takedowns. I believe the Judo folks (Committee) wanted to get back to the basics of Judo and make it so you had to concentrate on the techniques and details of the throws. Yea I learned the hard way when trying to convert someone out of a turtle by grabbing the back of their gi color and pulling them straight back...that it is a no, no in Judo. One thing I like about Judo Ne Waza is you have to be decisively engaged in attacking your opponent and you need to do it fast and good. If not, well you are standing back up. In BJJ you can screw around alot and take your time getting to a position you want. I think Judo Ne Waza is good practice in this respect.

Well i've spent the last few hours reading about BJJ, and watching videos...it looks like i'm going to be getting into it.
Great: I don't have any money, and i'm taking up a new hobby...

I like how it has less rule restrictions than judo ne waza; how did you find BJJ, coming from aikido? Or was it vice versa?
It seems to be the same sort of thing: relaxing; using the hips...
I'm fascinated by the techniques - the ethos underlying them: leverage, etc.; I think it'll help to inform my aikido.

Regards the original topic. I found this:

http://www.slideyfoot.com/2006/10/bj...html#judovsbjj

And if you want to see some cool BJJ, check this out (I was watching when it happened):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyK3N...eature=related

...and the hilarious, expert walkthrough of 'The Twister' by Eddie Bravo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5KQ948H2ps

Thanks for the website link on Slideyfoot. Looks like a good source of information.

I got involved in BJJ accidently. I was working with some guys doing Aikido in my Infantry BN in the post gym one morning during PT and one of our Battalion NCOs was doing BJJ in the same room. Long story short we had the philosophical discussion about ground fighting vice multiple opponent and why I thought BJJ was retarded.

To keep the long story short, we agreed to throw on the Blauer Suits and he would fight me however I wanted with whatever restrictions/rules/agreements I wanted. Of course he schooled me....and then one of his students with about 4 months of training schooled me. I didn't have answers in my martial experience for what I dealt with and couldn't answer the questions folks were asking me when I trained them in my unit...that and the Army had an awesome Combatives program....

So I decided to explore BJJ.

In the end, I found that the methodology that BJJ used to train Jiu Jitsu with was very relevant to my over all understanding of body mechanics and how stuff worked. As time went on...I saw many of the same principles and things I saw in aikido...found they were NOT in opposition or conflict...but supporting.

That is not to say that Aikido is BJJ and BJJ is AIkido...two different methodologies focused on a different aspect of the same basic problem. They are, however, IMO, complimentary in many respects.

I'll warn you though BJJ will take a while to get used to and you will need to stick with it a couple of years in order to get there. It is a commitment just like anything else worthwhile. You aren't going to go into the dojo and in a few classes increase your knowledge or proficiency.

Less rules and restrictions: seemingly. and yes, I agree for the most part that is true. However, unspoken, there are many, many "rules" or constraints in BJJ that are imposed through the traditions, customs, and courtesies of training.

For example, most BJJers won't back out of a guard or break contact with a fight. They will stall in various positions, because there is no referee telling them to fight decisively....there are lots of "rules" that are implicit in BJJ. Ironically the rules in Judo are designed to force compliance to and shape things to keep the fight honest. Of course, more specified rules, as we know, create advantages for those that figure out how to exploit them! Sigh!

The good thing about BJJ, IMO, is that for the most part people want to train and they want to train hard. The "rules" and "constraints" allow you to roll hard and on the ground it becomes apparent what you know and don't know. As one of my good friends' motto is "in BJJ, the mat don't lie!"...he has it printed on tee-shirts!

Kevin Leavitt wrote: One of my favorite matches that I used to show my Combatives Classes was Tim Sylvia vs Jeff Monson. Monson is a superior grappler. Siliva defeated him, not by becoming a better grappler, but simply learning how to sprawl and avoid takedowns. He wore Monson out who what shorter and basically had a grappling strategy for the fight. It demonstrates that in Rules based MMA fighitng having a game plan and a strategy is paramount. You no longer have to be a good grappler...you simply need a strategy to defeat the guy you are fighting.

5'9" against 6'8". Monson just couldn't get inside Silvia. Silvia's size and reach kept a lot of people at bay. I loved Randy Couture's strategy against Silvia!

Kevin Leavitt wrote: Thanks for the website link on Slideyfoot. Looks like a good source of information. I got involved in BJJ accidently. I was working with some guys doing Aikido in my Infantry BN in the post gym one morning during PT and one of our Battalion NCOs was doing BJJ in the same room. Long story short we had the philosophical discussion about ground fighting vice multiple opponent and why I thought BJJ was retarded. To keep the long story short, we agreed to throw on the Blauer Suits and he would fight me however I wanted with whatever restrictions/rules/agreements I wanted. Of course he schooled me....and then one of his students with about 4 months of training schooled me. I didn't have answers in my martial experience for what I dealt with and couldn't answer the questions folks were asking me when I trained them in my unit...that and the Army had an awesome Combatives program.... So I decided to explore BJJ. In the end, I found that the methodology that BJJ used to train Jiu Jitsu with was very relevant to my over all understanding of body mechanics and how stuff worked. As time went on...I saw many of the same principles and things I saw in aikido...found they were NOT in opposition or conflict...but supporting. That is not to say that Aikido is BJJ and BJJ is AIkido...two different methodologies focused on a different aspect of the same basic problem. They are, however, IMO, complimentary in many respects. I'll warn you though BJJ will take a while to get used to and you will need to stick with it a couple of years in order to get there. It is a commitment just like anything else worthwhile. You aren't going to go into the dojo and in a few classes increase your knowledge or proficiency. Less rules and restrictions: seemingly. and yes, I agree for the most part that is true. However, unspoken, there are many, many "rules" or constraints in BJJ that are imposed through the traditions, customs, and courtesies of training. For example, most BJJers won't back out of a guard or break contact with a fight. They will stall in various positions, because there is no referee telling them to fight decisively....there are lots of "rules" that are implicit in BJJ. Ironically the rules in Judo are designed to force compliance to and shape things to keep the fight honest. Of course, more specified rules, as we know, create advantages for those that figure out how to exploit them! Sigh! The good thing about BJJ, IMO, is that for the most part people want to train and they want to train hard. The "rules" and "constraints" allow you to roll hard and on the ground it becomes apparent what you know and don't know. As one of my good friends' motto is "in BJJ, the mat don't lie!"...he has it printed on tee-shirts!

It's a really good resource, yeah: i've spent a few hours reading it already, ha.

I'm not under any illusions, or in any rush: I had loads of fun in the ground randori at judo, and want to do that as much as possible (executing the stand-up throws in judo doesn't 'buzz' me, if i'm honest: too ungainly; too much hard work).
I've also been meaning to lose the little excess weight around my midriff - but plain exercise just doesn't interest me; I could do something fun like BJJ for hours, though - so purely on that basis, it'll be worth it.

I've just been reading about the GJJ Vs BJJ thing, ha. Apparently, GJJ (headed by Helio Gracie's oldest son, and heir) is being criticised for becoming a McDojo, and adopting the ethos of TMAs: 'Sport isn't real; real techniques only exist where there are no rules: the street!'...the irony.

My local dojo is Gracie Barra, and that seems to be legitimate; it's run by a couple of brown belts.

I got my start with Gracie Barra and have several close friends that are GB Black Belts and have dojos. My first coach and good friend in Brazil is a GB Black Belt as well. I am working on bringing these guys over to Germany sometime in the next year for a seminar.

I have trained some with the Valente Brothers down in Miami. They are closely aligned under Helio and are very careful to let you know they teach what they consider to be GM Helio's BJJ.

When I went there, only white Gi's with no patches. They teach lots of self defense, and stand up and they are very traditional.

They are quick to distinguish what they are doing from the mainstream of BJJ.

Actually, the curriculum I follow with my instructors and organization, we try and do many of the same practices. We do the tournament thing, but it is not our focus.

I have heard about the controversy of the GJJ curriculum and the whole McDojo thing. It is not as bad as it sounds I think. There are many out there that need help and do not have access to dojos and the "online"/DVD curriculums are there to help these folks....of course..YMMV.

Kevin Leavitt wrote: I have trained some with the Valente Brothers down in Miami. They are closely aligned under Helio and are very careful to let you know they teach what they consider to be GM Helio's BJJ. When I went there, only white Gi's with no patches. They teach lots of self defense, and stand up and they are very traditional. They are quick to distinguish what they are doing from the mainstream of BJJ. Actually, the curriculum I follow with my instructors and organization, we try and do many of the same practices. We do the tournament thing, but it is not our focus. I have heard about the controversy of the GJJ curriculum and the whole McDojo thing. It is not as bad as it sounds I think. There are many out there that need help and do not have access to dojos and the "online"/DVD curriculums are there to help these folks....of course..YMMV.

Well I watched some GJJ stuff while I was researching the various schools, what have you (very hard to keep track: so many Gracies, ha)...
It looked good - the instructors even have a YouTube channel where they break down various UFC fights:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BibrFCYmLvg

And they seem like really nice guys.
The feeling on forums, however, is that they are selling a product - hiding techniques, etc. - and that they have set up their own competitions; so their style has stagnated, whereas BJJ has continued to evolve - evolution/willingness to change being what made BJJ what it was in the first place.
I've found the same thing in aikido: there are various organisations who prefer to practice it how they were taught it in the 50s, 60, 70s, etc. - whereas the style i'm doing now, for example, has very close ties to hombu, and present-day aikido, and there are all kinds of innovations i'd never seen before.

I'm not fit to judge, anyway: i've yet to go to my first class.

One thing I have come to realise, Kevin, after that judo ne waza: after a while of trying to muscle techniques, my strength would go through exhaustion - so I would have no choice but to relax, and attempt to use pure technique.
A massive lesson to learn.

I could always use a little strength in aikido (without knowing) - because practice would never see me using it all up, and having no choice but to use technique...

A good interview on BJJ with a little Aikido perspective thrown in:
http://blog.aikidojournal.com/2011/0...tanley-pranin/