Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-20-2002, 01:58 PM   #51
Erik
Location: Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,200
Offline
I'm sort of embarassed to come in after all that's been written. What to say after George Ledyard's posts other than "amen!"

Nuked the rest of the post!

It's wasted space relative to what came after.

Last edited by Erik : 06-20-2002 at 05:14 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2002, 03:47 PM   #52
chadsieger
Dojo: Minh Sensei
Location: Allentown, PA
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 107
Offline
Talking

Jun,

1.
Quote:
No, actually, I was wondering how you can reconcile your assertion that aikido
is a "defensive" art in the face of people who are threatening you or someone
else without attacking you?
Irimi is as intergral to Aikido as tenkan is. Irimi is considered the act of entering, to cut off an attack before it can reach its potential power. The shomenate on the Atemi Waza link is kind of what I mean. (Actually we would call that a kokyunage. Also, I am somewhat perplexed because the nage seems to blend with the attack, then switches to irimi. My point is, he had uke off balance by blending with the striking hand, then for some reason he let go and went for the strike. It should have either been one movement-strike or continue to draw to a throw. Can anyone help?)
Anyway, if I see any attack (even one not directed at me) I feel it is my duty, as human and Aikidoka to irimi the attack. That may include the use of my martial ability (the principles of budo as learned through Aikido among other arts). Hopefully, I will have Ueshiba's control and neither the attacker nor mysleft will be harmed. Whether I call it Aikido at that point I feel is moot.

2.
Quote:
I also asked what you meant when you wrote "the person blocking the doorway or
harming your child will have worse things to worry about than self-defence, like
staying in one piece!" as, frankly, my reading of it did not make sense to me.
I only meant that if someone was hurting somone else in my presence, I would be compelled to intervene. Of course their actions would dictate mine, so hopefully they would elect to talk.

3.
Quote:
Also, I was not sure how your statement of "That is precisely why when training
not to rush through moves, muscle through moves, or "strike" through moves"
explains just how you would deal with such situations as above.
My only problem with Atemi is and has always been that I feel they degrade the training in the dojo. There are so many wonderful aspects of Aikido training (softness, blending, extension, sensitivity, ect.) that all must be built by employing the mind is a controlled manner with a unwaivering uke.
Many of you feel that Atemis on the mat help your mai or improve your striking capabliity, and you would be right. However, there are so many other lessons to be learned!
The "feel" of budo is learned by masters of hard arts, however, it takes much, much longer, simply because at first their emphasis is external. Aikio is/can be internal right away. As Mr. Ledyard stated, it is your choice.

Many of you belive that removing the spirtual aspects of Aikido improves it's budo. However, this could not be farther from the truth. Training in the budo with teach you as much about the spirtual as learning the spirtual will lead you to the true budo.
You can hit so hard what next? You learn a new technique now what? When you limit your budo to defeat/win mentallity there will always be at least one loser. Ueshiba was not blowing smoke when he said, "In Aikido we never attack... do not try to supress or control an opponent unnatually. Redirect each attack and get firmly behind it." Spritually enlightening and budo sound. (BTW: he said this much later than Budo Renshu)
Eventually budo is simply the application of the priciples that have been learned. Utilize priciples on the street by entering no-mind.

To the beginner: Know your basics well.
To the master: Know your basics well.


Thanks, hope this helps.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2002, 04:48 PM   #53
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,633
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by chadsieger

Many of you believe that removing the spiritual aspects of Aikido improves its budo. However, this could not be farther from the truth. Training in the budo with teach you as much about the spiritual as learning the spiritual will lead you to the true budo.
You can hit so hard what next? You learn a new technique now what? When you limit your budo to defeat/win mentallity there will always be at least one loser.
You see, here is the essence of the misunderstanding. No one has said anything about removing the spiritual aspects of the art. This is an interpretation of what was said based on your own feelings that this is what the use of atemi is doing.

In point of fact, I defy anyone to explain to me how performing technique in a manner that would be effective is somehow less spiritual than doing it in an ineffective manner.

Also, I must add that people on both the pro-atemi and the anti-atemi side of his debate still are failing to see atemi in its true light. Yes, atemi can be used to a) create physical dysfunction, b) create distraction through application of pain, or c) simply unbalance an opponent physically. But the aspect of atemi that is so poorly understood is the non-physical side. Atemi in your kihon waza or basic techniques is usually implicit rather than explicit. It is often no more than a momentary alignment of some part of the body which points out an "opening" which the attacker may have. In that instant, whether the atemi is actualized as a strike or not, the recognition of the opening serves to "catch" the Mind for an instant. This in turn creates the space to catch the Body and take the Center.

This is not some Eastern mystical idea. Anyone who has seen boxing is familiar with the concept of the "fake". The "fake" is precisely a way in which one can produce a reaction in the opponent or to freeze him for a split second in order to achieve some other end.

Most often when I throw an atemi, I do not expect that it will strike its target. I expect that my partner will deal with it. It is precisely that involvement which I am looking for. Did you ever wonder how an Aikido practitioner can actually do an irimi against a full speed attack by a skilled partner? I am a large man, six feet and over 250 lbs. It is not possible for me to move quickly. However people perceive that I am fast. The idea that you move off the line when attacked is all very nice but try to do it against a Fourth Dan in Karate or a Western style boxer. If your Mind is attempting to move out of the way you will draw their attention directly to you every time.

Atemi is the way that you can catch the Mind of the attacker for an instant. It can produce the desire to raise an arm in defense that would otherwise have been immoveable, it can dominate the attacker's perception for an instant, blinding him to your irimi movement and keeping him from tracking you. None of this involves actually striking the opponent although he can't tell the difference until it is too late.

Clint George was teaching Yokomenuchi techniques this past weekend at our seminar. Over and over he emphasized that in receiving the attack one did not focus on the arm delivering the attack but rather on the attacker's Center. That initial irimi to the Center was precisely the instant that you CHOSE not to deliver the actual atemi but then moved to deal with the arm. At that instant the attacker's Mind recognizes that the threat of the atemi is there and his energy makes the shift that allows the actual technique to be executed. Without first catching the "attention" or the Mind of the attacker one can not expect to successfully execute a technique against a knowledgeable opponent.

I absolutely fail to see how this is somehow less "spiritual". It is precisely on this element that all of the most sophisticated, soft technique is based. An atemi can be the briefest pulse of intention towards the partner. Saotome Sensei could produce a tangible reaction producing a stoppage in my attack just at the instant that I initiated simply by tightening his hanmi and bringing his attention from a dispersed state to a focused point.

If you do not have the energy, the physical focus, and the strong intention to deliver a blow that could knock out or kill you will not be able to choose not to do this and to use that energy for another purpose. So initially the important part of atemi waza is developing a decent set of strikes that one can actually do with speed and power. But eventually the most sophisticated use of the atemi is to let the potential for that atemi produce an effect in the partner without having to make do the strike at all. This is an energetic communication rather than a merely physical act and that is about as spiritual an application of technique that I can imagine. Those who avoid atemi as violent and an attack on the other can never understand this aspect of our art.

Last edited by George S. Ledyard : 06-20-2002 at 04:53 PM.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2002, 05:53 PM   #54
AikiAlf
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 47
Offline
Circle

What Ledyard sensei has eloquently described is what I've been taught in the dojo since I started my training. So, the 90% or 99% Atemi quote seems completely reasonable to me.

I'm confused because I've never seen anyone do technique without Atemi in the sense of "taking the mind".

And in that same way I don't understand where the problem with "proactive" aikido is either.

I even get the sense from reading the posts, that everyone agrees, including Chad, given his take on Irimi.

Some people talk of Irimi in the same sense as Atemi.

I'm confused ; who are the Atemiless Aikido people?
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2002, 05:59 PM   #55
Erik
Location: Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,200
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by AikiAlf
What Ledyard sensei has eloquently described is what I've been taught in the dojo since I started my training. So, the 90% or 99% Atemi quote seems completely reasonable to me.
That's because that Rowell guy is a bad influence on you.

You can tell him I said so too.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2002, 10:48 PM   #56
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,711
United_States
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by akiy

My own thought is that aikido is not a defensive martial art nor is it aggressive. I'd characterize it as an "active" martial art. I believe that atemi is very much a part of the art, both as nage and uke.

-- Jun
I knew there was something about you I liked. Very nicely said. Compliments and appreciation. I tend to see waza as neutral, its my mentality and intent that make them otherwise.

Until again,

Lynn

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2002, 12:11 AM   #57
Bronson
 
Bronson's Avatar
Dojo: Seiwa Dojo and Southside Dojo
Location: Battle Creek & Kalamazoo, MI
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,677
Offline
Ok, I'll admit that my understanding of atemi is limited. Our dojo doesn't use it that much, or so I thought. After reading all the posts here I've been looking at atemi with different definitions than I previously had been using. I started re-examining my techniques and watching sensei's for it and I'll be dipped if it isn't everywhere.

Also if I use George's definition,

Quote:
An atemi can be the briefest pulse of intention towards the partner.
then yes I use atemi all the time in every technique that I can think of right off the top of my head. This is the kind of atemi my sensei is doing all the time and consequently what we're all trying to learn. Maybe it's like trying to start halfway up the mountain but that's for a different post

Just tonight I found myself using atemi and teaching it in a tachidori technique. Uke struck shomenuchi with the bokken and we were doing a tenkan kotegeashi with it. They go down a lot faster if they think you're gonna hit 'em in the face with there own weapon

So I guess I'll need to retract what I've said in other posts on this subject. Apparently I do use atemi, maybe not a full on physical atem, but by the definitions offered in these posts it is still definitely atemi.

I'd just like to thank everyone on here for posting. Although I don't always agree with everything that's said, it does make me think about my training and what I believe and where I want it to go. I especially like when I think I am completely on the other side of an issue from others but upon closer examination I find that we're really doing pretty much the same thing but are just using different names or have a different focus to it (kinda like the whole atemi thing)

Thanks again, learning is fun

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2002, 11:20 AM   #58
mike lee
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 646
Offline
Wink throw an atemi?

Anyone who "throws" an atemi stands a very good chance of being thrown by a good fighter. This is because he would momentarily be over-extended.

In addition, anyone who advocates using atemi to make up for their own lack of proficiency when practicing with a much larger, stronger individual, doesn't know how to practice aikido correctly. This is white-belt stuff.

If tori practices atemi correctly, when uke moves into an atemi, he should feel a rock-solid fist.

People who can't even take the time to learn how to fall have no business learning aikido techniques. There is no free lunch, especially when it comes to learning aikido. Any teacher worth his salt should know that.

Aikido is a budo of love, not of violence. Violent intentions undo the enemy, and more words count less.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2002, 01:20 PM   #59
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
Location: Barnegaat, NJ
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 893
Offline
One word, a thousand meanings

It is said that you can say the same words in different ways, and they will have a thousand different meanings ... that would seem to be the case here, after reading all of the posts for three plus pages.

We have the young warriors who use speed, emotion, and what they think is strength to tear into the opponent, then we have some of the older heavier guys, like George Ledyard and myself (6ft tall over 250lbs), who somehow appear fast and proficient because of distractions, and maneovers that take away the power of our opponents.

There is no absolute right way to learn, but there are ways to train to lesson the pain, or the time it takes to acquire skills you see in other practitioners or teachers. If you break some of the complicated renderings of your mother tongue so that you can understand what is being said, it might be easier to understand so that the japanese terms won't mean a thousand different things.

Yeah, I know that is a cheat way to do it, but being a bear of very little brains, I find that understanding what a technique does is not always grasp by its japanese description.

Atemi ... hmmmm.

I did like the description about the muscled policemen, and that they needed a little prodding to get them going, such as a distraction, poke, or a little pain?

I look at most of the Aikido techniques as working from a pain point of view, atemi use to initiate or counter, the use of some type of distraction or pain initiate movement is your primary goal.

As for the TKD people, they take a lot longer to realize that their skills of kicking, or punching are not the end all, along with the emotional baggage of proving they are the best fighters in a given situation, although some people do get past this.

The few good points of looking at the overall opponent, his/her balance or offensive capabilities, and Clint George bringing these little tidbits to Ledyard sensei's attention are worth rereading by those seeking to understand interpreting a larger picture verses emotional baggage or a hand coming toward your face?

Oh, well.

Atemi causes action, you react, then hopefully you will gain control or upper hand.

It shouldn't matter if you are the cause or you react from it, eventually, with proper training, it shouldn't matter.

If you don't believe it, pay attention to your training, mentally mark the times you miss a technique, and see if your reaction corrects for the miss or not ... eventually it will, then you will see the first strike, or reaction to Atemi.

By the way, I did enjoy reading most of the posts for this thread, they were more interactive than the normal da-a-a-a-ah.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2002, 09:01 AM   #60
Mike Haber
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 34
Offline
Re: throw an atemi?

Quote:
Originally posted by mike lee
Anyone who "throws" an atemi stands a very good chance of being thrown by a good fighter. This is because he would momentarily be over-extended.

In addition, anyone who advocates using atemi to make up for their own lack of proficiency when practicing with a much larger, stronger individual, doesn't know how to practice aikido correctly. This is white-belt stuff.

If tori practices atemi correctly, when uke moves into an atemi, he should feel a rock-solid fist.

People who can't even take the time to learn how to fall have no business learning aikido techniques. There is no free lunch, especially when it comes to learning aikido. Any teacher worth his salt should know that.

Aikido is a budo of love, not of violence. Violent intentions undo the enemy, and more words count less.
I hate to say this but people like you are why aikido is seen as a dance and not an affective way to deal with real attacks. Atemi is absolutely ESSENTIAL to aikido in a true self-defense or combat situation.

Sincerely,

Mike Haber
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2002, 09:19 AM   #61
mike lee
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 646
Offline
illiterate

People like me? I never said that atemi was not important.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2002, 10:04 AM   #62
ChristianBoddum
 
ChristianBoddum's Avatar
Dojo: Aarhus AiKiKai
Location: Aarhus,Denmark
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 263
Offline
Re: illiterate

Hi there !
Correct me if I'm wrong.My understanding and
practice of atemi is not to intently hit someone,but to initiate your technique and
the "rythm" and continuation of the technique
- drawing of the sword and completing the cut.
I once had a conversation with a policeman,
he said that unfortunately he could not use atemi to start an arrest,because to the public it would look like police brutality or
agression to the layman.
If the opponent does get hit,in my opinion ,
it is because he really is attacking and does mean to hit you .
I once noticed K.Tohei do gokyo (textbook aikido) and to my eyes that showed me the meaning of atemi,also O'senseis atemi's
looked to do the same.
Yours - Chr.B.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Value of atemi DustinAcuff Techniques 67 06-08-2007 08:35 AM
Atemi George S. Ledyard Techniques 35 04-11-2007 07:42 AM
Atemi, kuzushi and effectiveness L. Camejo Techniques 17 04-18-2004 10:35 AM
O Sensei starts "No Atemi" Aikido? tedehara Techniques 89 03-18-2004 08:28 AM
teaching effectiveness Hagen Seibert Techniques 28 05-03-2001 07:02 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:24 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate