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Old 06-18-2002, 11:16 AM   #26
Bruce Baker
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Openings/ screaming to be hit

If you have had training in a striking art that emphisizes striking, you will eventually cause or see openings that are screaming to be hit. Either because they are deceptions, or your ability to recognize opportunity verses ability of your attacker/opponent to cover these areas, then you will have to deal with displacement of their balance by using striking/Atemi.

The game of striking is sometimes more difficult because of years of sparring practice, but as Aikido proves, it is not always the safest method of defense/offense for martial arts.

If you observe the many ways that we maneover an opponent, through locks / grabs / taking away balance / or atemi, you begin to see that we are either creating or working with openings that appear as the balance is taken and we pursue neutalizing the opponent.

Key to keeping within the tenents of Aikido is the neutralizing the opponent with the least amount of force required, a lesson learned with practice, experience, and training.

So, the arguement of what you think the ideal amount of impact Atemi has upon the importance of creating an opening, or giving you the opportunity to use other means to immobilize, it is your own experience that will determine how much YOU need to find a balance that you can live with as you train.

I think is is great that we can quote teachers, or figures who have had great impact or influence upon Aikido and the direction in which our training has advanced, but don't make their ideals the absolute goal of YOUR training.

Enjoy your practice, your training for what it is.

Observe the world for what it is, or what it was, but don't let that be your yardstick to what you must be ... that will come after you are long dead and gone by others.

Of course, learning how to strike, where to strike, and how to use the least amount of force would be equal to learning how to break walnuts with your fingers, rather then using a sledge hammer ... which I think is within the tenents of Aikido is you have the right attutude?

Atemi ... another handy tool that you must search outside of your normal Aikido practice for, but very nicely compliments your Aikido.
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Old 06-18-2002, 05:54 PM   #27
davoravo
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Dear PeterR
Thanx for the great video link. I have often practised similar techniques but always as Kokyu-nage, not atemi. Is this where are missing percentages have gone?

Also some martial artists would define nikkyo, sankyo etc as atemi.

My favourite use of atemi is as a cover. eg yokomen uchi shiho nage using the atemi to block an imaginary 2nd strike by uke. This reminds me that attacks never travel alone.

PS In the link shomen ate is being delivered to the chest, is it normally a strike to the face?

"One of my dear Aikido friends was fond of planting a big kiss on your cheek just before hurling you with her iriminage"

my kind of dojo!

Last edited by davoravo : 06-18-2002 at 06:00 PM.

David McNamara
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Old 06-18-2002, 06:50 PM   #28
davoravo
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The important thing about atemi is that it should not replace blending - uke should be off balance from the point that the attack is intercepted. Atemi can be used to keep things that way.

It is essential an aikido practicioner not get trapped into an exchange of blows because he will lose - never let uke drag you into their style of fight, always fight on your terms (ie not at all )

David McNamara
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Old 06-18-2002, 07:07 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by davoravo
In the link shomen ate is being delivered to the chest, is it normally a strike to the face?
Shomen-ate means front strike - I remember being up to the wee hours with a slightly psychotic ex-US marine looking at assorted variations, some quite nasty, of shomen-ate. His favourite was a close quarters palm heel strike under the jaw. One of my favourites, also close quarters, is putting one hand on the small of the back while pushing up and over with the other.

However, to specifically answer your question, you will notice that initially the hand does make contact to the face and it is not so much a strike as a whole body shove. The power comes from the hips not the arm. A real beginner keeps his arm straight but this has major problems in that it is easily countered - wakagatamae (one of the 17 animated gifs on that site) comes to mind. The idea is that as you move forward your hips drop and you apply a downward pressure to the chest. A double whammy so to speak. A similar situation occurs with the ushiro-ate (same page). It is not just a pull backwards but a push down.

Hope this helps.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-19-2002, 06:04 AM   #30
George S. Ledyard
 
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Atemi in Aikido

Quote:
Originally posted by chadsieger
Mr. Ledyard,

It seems to me that your article was designed to make Aikidoka aware of the atemi, as a physical strike, as it applies to budo.
No, in fact there was discussion of atemi as not physical. Most of the use of atemi in Aikido is not physical in the sense that there is not necessarily any impact (although the partner doesn't know this).

Atemi is primarily designed to capture the opponent's (partner's) Mind in the instant of the attack which then allows you to capture their center.

Saotome Sensei has said that if you know that your partner will not strike you, all techniques are stop-able. The only reason that you can do soft technique at all is the atemi that is hidden inside of it. If I know you won't or can't strike me, I can direct my energy to counter any technique you choose. I can place my body in positions that would normally get me struck, thereby nuetralizing your technique and giving me an angle that allows me to strike you. I can pull back my energy every time you attempt to lead it out as required by most technique. I can cut my energy off every time you attempt to throw, giving you nothing to work with.

If you have been having success working with no atemi you have been working with a compliant partner or an opponent who is incompetent. A partner who is familiar with technique, knows the kaeshiwaza, has good striking skills will not be locked or thrown without the need to keep his attention and thereby his energy evenly disbursed in order to cover his openings against potential (notice I said POTENTIAL) atemi.

We hosted Clint George Sensei this past weekend. He trained under Hikitsuchi Sensei in Japan for fifteen years and now teaches in Helena, Montana. We discussed at length the fact that so mnay Aikido people do not understand the role of atemi in their technique. His training was virtually the same as mine in that atemi or the possibility of atemi was the way in which the Mind was directed before the phsyical technique happened. Additionally, he made it clear that every technique in Aikido has a manifestation as atemi, which you are normally choosing not to do but would represent the more combative application of the technique itself.

Finally I will add that I have occasion to do technique on non-Aikido folks all the time. Since I am a police defensive tactics instructor I work with students who have NO ukemi skills. They do not know how to fall, they do not flow with you, if they don't like what is happening they will break the connection between you. Many of these fellows are extremely strong. I have two students who bench press in the four hundred pound range. There are simply no techniques that will work on these guys when they are resistant without the ability to redirect their attention with atemi. You can't even snag a limb to attempt a technique without atemi.

In my training I ask my partners to react in a sensible and knowledgeble manner. If they can stop me they should do so. If they can hit me they should do so. If my partner has a high level of skill it is impossible to do techique without atemi. That doesn't mean that you necessarily see a strike every time I throw but it is there just the same.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 06-19-2002, 06:59 AM   #31
davoravo
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Does anyone teach/learn "self-defense" techniques. I practice knee and elbow strikes on a heavy bag and eye gouges and thumb strikes to the carotid but I keep these separate from my usual aikido. They are my desperate-measures tool box.

I deliberately keep them reserved for close range grappling as I think they would ruin my flow and timing if I tried to incorporate them into my aikido.

Does anyone else have a similar practice or do you believe "everything is aikido"?

David McNamara
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Old 06-19-2002, 09:59 AM   #32
chadsieger
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Talking

Mr. McNamara,
I understand what you are saying. It is always important to have tricks up your sleeve. If you are worried about self-defence however, I would recommend simply developing your ki. For those who don't belive in ki, just learn whatever the tai chi students practice. That ki element is supposed to be in Aikido as well(for a variety of reasons), so I dont think Ueshiba would mind if you crossed disiplines. Once you begin developing your ki, opponents will find it much more difficult to "get close," and much less hurt you.

Mr. Ledyard,

I am happy to report that there is in fact nothing wrong with our uke's. We have a saying at our dojo. "No attack, no defense." It is near impossible to force Aikido techniques on those simply relaxing, much less to "snag a limb."
Now, if they are attacking (even a simple grab), they have given my something to work with. Aikido is defensive, because that is where we are stonger. Take their energy, and save the Atemi for when you are in danger.

Thanks.
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Old 06-19-2002, 10:05 AM   #33
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Talking Clairification

I meant atemis of the physical variety. Yes, all moves in a way require their own atemi. However, I believe this thread was started on physical atemis.

Thanks.
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Old 06-19-2002, 10:22 AM   #34
Paul Clark
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Without resorting to a wholesale quote:

Well said Ledyard Sensei!

best
Paul
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Old 06-19-2002, 10:46 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by chadsieger
I am happy to report that there is in fact nothing wrong with our uke's. We have a saying at our dojo. "No attack, no defense." It is near impossible to force Aikido techniques on those simply relaxing, much less to "snag a limb."
Now, if they are attacking (even a simple grab), they have given my something to work with. Aikido is defensive, because that is where we are stonger. Take their energy, and save the Atemi for when you are in danger.
The hypothetical questions I always bring up when people say something along the lines of "aikido is purely defensive" include:

What do you do when someone is attacking your child (and not you)?

What do you do if one person is abducting your child and another is deliberately blocking your way to reach him/her?

What happens is a person is deliberately blocking your way out of, say, a burning building?

Would you say that you wouldn't be able to apply aikido in these cases?

As an aside, some approaches to aikido include nage/shite/tori starting out with a strong atemi to uke's face and such. Many other shihan subscribe to the principle of "kobo ichi" or "offense and defense are one." I, personally, don't think there's really any difference between uke and nage outside of who has the initiative...

-- Jun

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Old 06-19-2002, 11:06 AM   #36
chadsieger
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Talking

Jun,

No, I wound not say that you could use "pure Aikido." However, if you train correctly (ie. for the "feel" of budo) that only comes from applying the mind/body to training, the person blocking the doorway or harming your child will have worse things to worry about than self-defence, like staying in one piece!

That is precisely why when training not to rush through moves, muscle through moves, or "strike" through moves. The techniques are designed to teach you the subtle feelings that when added together, form a powerful budo. Don't cheat yourself.

Mr. Leynard,
I forgot to ask you, if you know the attacker won't strike you, why is their cause to do anything?

Thanks.
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Old 06-19-2002, 11:25 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by chadsieger
No, I wound not say that you could use "pure Aikido." However, if you train correctly (ie. for the "feel" of budo) that only comes from applying the mind/body to training, the person blocking the doorway or harming your child will have worse things to worry about than self-defence, like staying in one piece!
I'm not too sure if I understand what you're saying here. Can you explain further?
Quote:
That is precisely why when training not to rush through moves, muscle through moves, or "strike" through moves. The techniques are designed to teach you the subtle feelings that when added together, form a powerful budo. Don't cheat yourself.
I'm not disagreeing with what you write here, but can you explain what this has to do with what I wrote?

Thanks,

-- Jun

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Old 06-19-2002, 12:41 PM   #38
George S. Ledyard
 
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Atemi

Quote:
Originally posted by chadsieger
Jun,

No, I wound not say that you could use "pure Aikido." However, if you train correctly (ie. for the "feel" of budo) that only comes from applying the mind/body to training, the person blocking the doorway or harming your child will have worse things to worry about than self-defence, like staying in one piece!

That is precisely why when training not to rush through moves, muscle through moves, or "strike" through moves. The techniques are designed to teach you the subtle feelings that when added together, form a powerful budo. Don't cheat yourself.

Mr. Leynard,
I forgot to ask you, if you know the attacker won't strike you, why is their cause to do anything?

Thanks.
It is clear that we are not of a mind and will not be. Unless you put yourself in a position in which your training demonstrates what I am talking about you will be able to sustain these ideas. That is absolutely your right. This is one of the areas in which the lack of matches in Aikido does make for some wide variety in opinion which would probably have been resolved in the old days. I believe that I could come to your dojo and definitely proove what I am talking about. I also believe that you could not do so at mine.

But the doing of such things leads to a kind of victory / defeat dichotomy which isn't really positive for either party. So unless you go out of your way to find a training situation in which you get exposed to what I am talking about you will have no incentive to change your thinking or your technique. Since I can see that your are happy with what you do and love your practice passionately that will not likely happen.

As for your last question, it showed that you had not understood what I was talking about. If the ATTACKER knows that you, the DEFENDER, will not strike him, then none of your so-called defensive techniques will work; not if he has any skill. The idea that Aikido is passive and that you wait for an attack is incorrect. If you wait for an attack you cede all control over the circumstance to the attacker. Once again I refer to Hikitsuchi Sensei when I say that nage initiates and does not passively recieve.

Last edited by George S. Ledyard : 06-19-2002 at 12:47 PM.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 06-19-2002, 02:31 PM   #39
chadsieger
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Talking No, I'm not there yet...

Jun,

I can answer both of your questions at the same time. You were esentially wondering how through Aikido training you would be able to stop someone hurting somone else, blocking you, ect..

Remember that martial arts (budo) is really only one mountain, is just that Ueshiba calls Aikido the fastest way up. Karate/TKD start hard, they end soft. At first they emphasize the external, its only later in training do they begin to look inwards (generally ).

Aikido is nice because immediatly it trains all the things that true budo involves (circles, extension, softness, sensitivity, absorbsion, taisabaki, blending, creativity, breath, no-mindedness, irimi), but it also lays them out in some sort of system (techniques, ukemi, streaches, breathing ect.). Amazingly, those simple tai chi routines (when done correctly) will teach you almost all of those qualities as well (maybe not ukemi).

However, regardless of the style a proper instructor and plenty of practice is the only way to begin down this road. Eventually combatants will no longer seem as singular oponents, but instead a system of which you are the most integral part and you will dictate the outcome. This is not only for a select few sequestered on a hillside somewhere, this is attainable for anyone.

Mr. Ledyard

With regard to this statement,

Mr. Leyard wrote:
Quote:
As for your last question, it showed that you had not understood what I was talking about. If the ATTACKER knows that you, the DEFENDER, will not strike him, then none of your so-called defensive techniques will work; not if he has any skill. The idea that Aikido is passive and that you wait for an attack is incorrect. If you wait for an attack you cede all control over the circumstance to the attacker
I did understand what you were saying, however I am sorry but I must still disagree. If the attacker does not attack, will will stalemate. Hopefully giving us time to think, maybe talk, or one of us time to run away. If that prevents a conflict, I think that would qualify as Aikido. Nonaction is an act.

If you are referring to a martial arts fight, I still wouldn't attack. Blend with whatever energy they offer and redirect it. Maybe an irimi is called for? Regardless, the attacker never gets control of circumstances, rather quite the opposite. With multiple attackers or if the necessity ever arises, yes I might strike. Hopefully I would enter no-mind and after all, strike are a part of budo.

Although questionable, I suppose I'll quote Ueshiba,
"When an opponent comes forward, move in and greet him; if he wants to pull back, send him on his way."

Thanks for reading.

Last edited by chadsieger : 06-19-2002 at 02:43 PM.
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Old 06-19-2002, 02:53 PM   #40
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Re: No, I'm not there yet...

Quote:
Originally posted by chadsieger
I can answer both of your questions at the same time. You were esentially wondering how through Aikido training you would be able to stop someone hurting somone else, blocking you, ect..
No, actually, I was wondering how you can reconcile your assertion that aikido is a "defensive" art in the face of people who are threatening you or someone else without attacking you.

I also asked what you meant when you wrote "the person blocking the doorway or harming your child will have worse things to worry about than self-defence, like staying in one piece!" as, frankly, my reading of it did not make sense to me.

Also, I was not sure how your statement of "That is precisely why when training not to rush through moves, muscle through moves, or "strike" through moves" explains just how you would deal with such situations as above.

Am I the only one confused here?

In any case, I agree with George here in that aikido is not a passive art but is one in which sen-no-sen and sen-sen-no-sen are utilized. I'll have to also disagree with your assertion that aikido is the "fastest way up" the mountain; it's not the art -- it's the practitioner.

-- Jun

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Old 06-19-2002, 04:53 PM   #41
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Just one comment on 'compliant' ukes: yes, some just go where you want, either out of a sense that thay should, or being muscled there (us little folk). Some of them also go because they recognise that to stand there is to be open to atemi (whether or not this is what you all are meaning by non-physical atemi or not, I have no clue). But some of us, especially sized challenged, know better than to stand where we can get pounded by a much bigger nage, and get our body parts out of the way.

I can certainly say, when attacking Ledyard Sensei (or my current sensei) I am well aware any given limb of theirs holds more muscle mass than my entire body, and I do my best not to put the more delicate parts of that same body in the path of all that muscle mass. So from my point of view, compliant just means 'not too stupid to get out of the way of the fist'...something I've found not always true when I have a big uke (by this I do NOT mean Ledyard Sensei or my current sensei , both of whom move real quick for big guys )
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Old 06-19-2002, 05:38 PM   #42
George S. Ledyard
 
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Compliance

Quote:
Originally posted by ca
Just one comment on 'compliant' ukes: yes, some just go where you want, either out of a sense that thay should, or being muscled there (us little folk). Some of them also go because they recognise that to stand there is to be open to atemi (whether or not this is what you all are meaning by non-physical atemi or not, I have no clue). But some of us, especially sized challenged, know better than to stand where we can get pounded by a much bigger nage, and get our body parts out of the way.

I can certainly say, when attacking Ledyard Sensei (or my current sensei) I am well aware any given limb of theirs holds more muscle mass than my entire body, and I do my best not to put the more delicate parts of that same body in the path of all that muscle mass. So from my point of view, compliant just means 'not too stupid to get out of the way of the fist'...something I've found not always true when I have a big uke (by this I do NOT mean Ledyard Sensei or my current sensei , both of whom move real quick for big guys )
I am really not talking so much about practice asa true martial encounter. In training we are of course going to comply with any technique which is close to effective. Who wants to be injured?

But in a real encounter we are talking about a life and death encounter. In class we throw someone and we "win" in a fight a successful technique could mean serious injury or death. You simply can't afford to "go along" you do whatever it takes to stop the techniue, reverse it or escape from it. This is one area in which many non-Aikidoka see a disadvantage to our style of compliant training. Unless you put special attention to the issue it is quite possible to develop quite nice technique without the strength of intention required to execute that technique in a real martial encounter. That's why so many judoka are stronger martial artists than their Aikido counter parts. This is not always true, and as a "sport" judo has it's own problems but strong intention on the part of the practitioners isn't one of them.

For someone of your physical characteristics the compliance isn't a matter of giving in, it is a matter of moving to escape a technique, set up a reversal, and / or gain an opening for an atemi. Since this thread has been about atemi it is important to point out that atemi is the great equalizer. A small person who understands atemi can still handle a larger attacker. Take out the atemi and you find out quickly why the sport martial arts like judo have weight classes.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 06-19-2002, 06:02 PM   #43
tedehara
 
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Question atemi

Quote:
Originally posted by Ecosamurai

...If I'm performing a technique that has an atmei, if I move too quickly my partner gets injured, if I move too slowly, the technique doesn't work and I leave myself with openings. It has to be timed just right, I have to harmonise with ukes timing.
If you ask me that sounds like its in the best traditions of Aiki, and there is nothing confusing about it.
Mike Haft
This reminds me of a former dojo mate who practiced a Chinese art. He was happy to train in Aikido because you could really do the techniques. Striking with a poison palm technique, if done properly, would wipe out your training partner. This meant untold problems in recuiting new training partners and keeping a lawyer on retainer to defend you from those annoying manslaughter charges.

All joking aside, there are plenty of things atemi can teach you. Chief among them are relaxation and ma-ai.

However, for those of you who talk about the real world, I was told about two experienced martial artists who were arguing and lost their tempers. Instead of using their respective arts, they ended up bashing each other. Another martial arts moment lost forever...

Last edited by tedehara : 06-19-2002 at 06:05 PM.

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Old 06-19-2002, 06:22 PM   #44
Paul Clark
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Hi Jun,

Quote:
Am I the only one confused here?
Nope, I'm also not "getting" much of what Chad says.

Quote:
In any case, I agree with George here in that aikido is not a passive art but is one in which sen-no-sen and sen-sen-no-sen are utilized. I'll have to also disagree with your assertion that aikido is the "fastest way up" the mountain; it's not the art -- it's the practitioner
Amen. Although I'm not certain of the Japanese translation, I "get" this intuitively, including the bit about the practitioner (I think); well said.

cheers
Paul
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Old 06-19-2002, 06:49 PM   #45
George S. Ledyard
 
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Atemi

We can clearly see that there is a wide gap of understanding which I do not see closing as Aikido goes forward in its development.

People do Aikido for a variety of reasons. There are many people who are not in this lifetime going to be martial artists. They are not interested in that side of the art. Rather they are interested in pursuing the movement side, the energy side, the side which serves as a model for conflict resolution. In some cases they simply like to have a community of like minded people with whom they can do an interesting practice.

I have no problem whatever with that. Your practice must be a reflection of who you are and who you'd like to be. When people are straight with themselves and others and state that they simply aren't interested in the martial side of Aikido they are free to proceed without any criticism from me.

But there are people who have spent many years attempting to maintain the side of the art which manifests the principles of Budo. The art as it was presented to me was both a vital spiritual practice and a martial art. It is a matter of importance to me that people not misunderstand the nature of what they are doing.

There are many of us who look at what passes for Aikido as nothing more than an art of "wishful thinking". I have seen people fly into the air when the nage was ten feet away. I have done techniques on an uke that sent them flying across the room with a flick of my wrist fully knowing that that same technique would have had no effect whatever on one of my own students. I regularly get on the mat with people whose strikes are designed to do anything except hit the defender. I watched once as Ikeda Sensei refused to move until the uke really struck him. That uke could not get himself to do the strike. Repeatedly he diverted the strike at the last second.

All of these people had the notion that they were doing a martial art. But what was going on had nothing to do with Budo. The Founders of the modern martial arts wanted to preserve those aspects of the martial arts which they could see developed by deep training in the martial arts. They recognized that the primary purpose of training was not combat any more, modern technology made that irrelevant. Yet they did see that there were lessons which Budo training did provide and they did not wish to see those disappear.

Aikido is precisely one of those arts. The Founder was quite specific about not wanting Aikido to be sportified. The training he gave his students was of the most strenuous kind. He certainly did not view his art as a form of non-martial dance that had no application.

When the art is toned down to the point where there is no longer any reality in the training the lessons of Budo are absent. So when there are discussions in which it is apparent that well intentioned people make statements about Aikido that are quite simply not accurate it does bring out a response.

This is not just a matter of opinion. Spirituality, philosophy, technical variation, are largely matters of personal preference. Martial application is not. You can either do it or you can't. In the old days in Japan, if you set yourself up as a teacher you could expect that someone would show up on your doorstep to see if you could walk your talk. If you couldn't, your students were apt to go down the street.

Those days are gone. So all that is left is the application of common sense, the desire to gain as much knowledge as possible, and a commitment to truth in your own training. You have to ask for the partners who will strike you if they can, the ones who will stop your technique when you make an error, ones who can reverse you when they get the opening.

I have trained with every Aikido teacher I have encountered over the years. There is a huge range of focus and ability amongst these people. Some can do their technique in a martial context and others can not. Some are martially ferocious but not useful as models of the values I am espousing in my life. A small number can do both and those are the teachers with whom I now go out of my way to train. Barring going around the country challenging other martial artists to fights that is the best I can do. When teachers who have more ability and experience than I am likely to ever have tell me something I tend to believe them. When I see people with a fraction of their experience or even a fraction of my own experience ignoring their teachings and maintaining that things are possible which I know not to be, it rather makes me despair of the state of training and what it means for the art in the future.

There are people who are highly skilled at technique and teaching. It is a shame that so many students can not tell the difference between what is real on a fundamental level and what is simply a case of the Emperor's New Clothes. Many of the finest Aikido practitioners I know have a hard time surviving because there simply aren't very many people who seem to have the desire to take their art up to the level it could be. Instead they avoid challenges to their preconceptions, join with people with whom they can be mutually affirming, and make their practice fun. That is precisely the thing to do if you want to remove those elements of personal transformation which exist in the practice of a true Budo.

O-Sensei challenged all of us to see that there was a radical shift in looking at his art. It didn't in any sense mean to him that the art was going to be watered down, made to be an entertaining pastime for well meaning Seekers. And that is one part of what Aikido has become. And I don't know that anything will change that. For people for whom that has appeal, training in Aikido as Budo will not be their path. If people do not want to know something, no one can make them see it. So Aikido will continue to develop in such a way that merely saying you do Aikido will have no meaning. Instead you will need to specify what type of Aikido you do, what is the approach you take, who your teacher is, etc. Then people might have some idea what you are doing. There are people out there doing Aikido which has nothing but a superficial resemblance to what I am doing. Yet we both call it Aikido. That will continue as long as there are people training who do not wish to know what they can and cannot really do but simply wish to be validated for their efforts.

Last edited by George S. Ledyard : 06-21-2002 at 11:24 AM.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
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Old 06-19-2002, 11:20 PM   #46
chadsieger
Dojo: Minh Sensei
Location: Allentown, PA
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Confused

Sorry Jun,

I thought that you asked me this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by akiy
The hypothetical questions I always bring up when people say something along the lines of "aikido is purely defensive" include:

What do you do when someone is attacking your child (and not you)?
What do you do if one person is abducting your child and another is deliberately blocking your way to reach him/her?
What happens is a person is deliberately blocking your way out of, say, a burning building?
Would you say that you wouldn't be able to apply aikido in these cases?
So, I poorly summed it up with :

Quote:
Originally Posted by chadsieger
You were esentially wondering how through Aikido training you would be able to stop someone hurting somone else, blocking you, ect..
I then did my best to explain myself, sorry if it didn't help. If you are wondering if I would still call my martial response "Aikido" if I was forced to initiate budo on someone hurting a nearby victum, the answer would still be yes. Ueshiba, I think, would call that a decicive irimi. Cut off an attack all the same, and if they aren't focused on you, they are already out of position.

Thanks.

Last edited by chadsieger : 06-19-2002 at 11:42 PM.
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Old 06-20-2002, 01:43 AM   #47
Jermaine Alley
Dojo: Aikido Of Richmond
Location: Richmond, VA
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Atemi Remarks

It is my opinion that the use of Atemi is important for the majority of our techniques. We all train in some shape or form to consider "real world" applications. I am only a novice in this game, but there aren't too many arts that don't include some kind of offensive strike etc. to facilitate a technique. If that atemi, should end the altercation without the application of whatever technique, so be it.
That is why now more than ever, I try to include some type of atemi somewhere in the technique. Atemi at the beginning, the middle and the end is the best policy in my humble opinion.
Can you still make Aikido work without atemi? I believe that you can.
Take care..
jermaine
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Old 06-20-2002, 01:53 AM   #48
Jermaine Alley
Dojo: Aikido Of Richmond
Location: Richmond, VA
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Offensive Aikido

Hey,
You brought up some good questions about aikido and Offenses.
In trying to convince some of my co workers to train (police co workers) questions about effectiveness, necessary aggresiveness etc. always seem to sneak into the conversation.
When it comes to switching from defensive to offensive technique, I am reminded of the term takemusu (if i spelled it correctly). Martial Creativity is what I have understood it to mean. MC covers all of those variations that you might do in rhandori, or the wierd "beach front" kokyu nage's that a well trained imagination might come to think up. Being offensive whenyou need to be offensive is also a part of MC. You canmake any technique work offensively and defensively.
What do you think?
jermaine
richmond, VA...
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Old 06-20-2002, 05:20 AM   #49
paw
Join Date: Mar 2002
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Mr. Ledyard,

Props for an open, honest baring of your martial soul! As I've said before, I greatly appreciate your integrity and honesty.

Warm Regards,

Paul
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Old 06-20-2002, 12:36 PM   #50
akiy
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by chadsieger
I then did my best to explain myself, sorry if it didn't help.
Maybe it's just me, but your response seemed to just be an redirection of sorts
-- answers that really didn't have much to do with what I asked.

Once again:

No, actually, I was wondering how you can reconcile your assertion that aikido
is a "defensive" art in the face of people who are threatening you or someone
else without attacking you.

I also asked what you meant when you wrote "the person blocking the doorway or
harming your child will have worse things to worry about than self-defence, like
staying in one piece!" as, frankly, my reading of it did not make sense to me.

Also, I was not sure how your statement of "That is precisely why when training
not to rush through moves, muscle through moves, or "strike" through moves"
explains just how you would deal with such situations as above.

Any possibility you could address these three points above, one by one? I'm
just curious as to why you believe aikido is a "defensive" art when there are so
many people (including the founder) who indicate that nage/tori/shite initiates
the technique (often with something along the lines of, "Tori: Step out on your
right foot and strike directly at your opponent's face with your right te-gatana
and punch his ribs with your left fist" (from "Budo" by Morihei Ueshiba))...

My own thought is that aikido is not a defensive martial art nor is it aggressive. I'd characterize it as an "active" martial art. I believe that atemi is very much a part of the art, both as nage and uke.

Also, a public "thank you" to George for his most recent post. Good stuff.

-- Jun

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