Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-03-2011, 06:11 PM   #1
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,191
Offline
being centered no matter what

Tonight at the end of class we did an interesting ki excercise. All nage was to do was to focus on their center no matter what way uke moved them. Uke moved nage in any direction in a manner not to overpower nage but to challenge nage in keeping their center.
I noticed such a peaceful feeling as uke moved my shoulders and my hips in many directions. Uke could only move me so far until the energy ran down into the ground and just went away.

My shoulders and arms got more relaxed. My posture adjusted naturally and calmness surrounded me.

Last edited by Mary Eastland : 08-03-2011 at 06:12 PM. Reason: spelling
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2011, 06:57 PM   #2
JW
 
JW's Avatar
Location: San Francisco CA USA
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 509
Offline
Re: being centered no matter what

Hi Mary, I'm confused, please help me get your meaning straightened out:
Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Uke could only move me so far until the energy ran down into the ground and just went away.
So you are saying this happened, in this order?
1. someone applied force to you in some direction
2. your body started to move due to the applied force
3. after moving you a bit, the apparent force diminished
4. you stopped moving, because there was no more apparent force

If that's correct, the order is strange compared to my experience. I guess you did something between 2 and 3, correct?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2011, 07:15 PM   #3
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,191
Offline
Re: being centered no matter what

Yup...that's what happened...it was different than what I have experienced before...I wasn't resisting or fighting anything...I just focused on my center and it felt like the push went away.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2011, 08:06 PM   #4
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: being centered no matter what

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Tonight at the end of class we did an interesting ki excercise. All nage was to do was to focus on their center no matter what way uke moved them. Uke moved nage in any direction in a manner not to overpower nage but to challenge nage in keeping their center.
I noticed such a peaceful feeling as uke moved my shoulders and my hips in many directions. Uke could only move me so far until the energy ran down into the ground and just went away.

My shoulders and arms got more relaxed. My posture adjusted naturally and calmness surrounded me.
Excellent. That's what I like to hear. Congratulations.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2011, 08:51 PM   #5
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: being centered no matter what

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
Hi Mary, I'm confused, please help me get your meaning straightened out:

So you are saying this happened, in this order?
1. someone applied force to you in some direction
2. your body started to move due to the applied force
3. after moving you a bit, the apparent force diminished
4. you stopped moving, because there was no more apparent force

If that's correct, the order is strange compared to my experience. I guess you did something between 2 and 3, correct?
I'll second that's what happens through the proper discipline of centre.(Aikido wise)

I will also add that until you can do this then you will fail to get a lot of what O'Sensei meant or even reality on no fighting or non opposition etc.

Until you get reality then obviously doubts about effectiveness creep in and thus people may look elsewhere and and consider Aikido doesn't work.

When you can be calm and centred in the face of a sword cutting you in half and still remain calm and centred, unmoved, full of admiration, then you will begin to realize what centre means.

Then the motion you do is no longer for self protection but merely to help the opponent, to save them from themselves.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2011, 09:46 PM   #6
JW
 
JW's Avatar
Location: San Francisco CA USA
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 509
Offline
Re: being centered no matter what

I wasn't going to dispute anything because Mary didn't make any absolute judgements. But Graham, you did:
Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I'll second that's what happens through the proper discipline of centre.(Aikido wise)
This is what I do, I won't say it is proper, but just so you know where I'm coming from:
1. force is applied
2. I don't move because it is going to ground
3. If the force increases too much, then my connection to the ki of the universe (heaven and earth anyone?) may become broken-- then I am moved by the applied force.
4. Then I have to forge a new connection to the universal ki..

As you can see, I was confused by Mary's initial description because from my POV some things happen in reverse order in her description.

Anyway let's not get too carried away with the "if you see it another way you will never understand" type comments, because I actually agree with / understand your big picture (see below)-- it is just methodology that differs.
Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Then the motion you do is no longer for self protection but merely to help the opponent, to save them from themselves.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2011, 10:24 PM   #7
JW
 
JW's Avatar
Location: San Francisco CA USA
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 509
Offline
Re: being centered no matter what

Sorry I just realized that anyone reading might say, "well duh of course you don't move if the push is too light."

Just to clarify:
In the exercise Mary described, the interesting thing, the value or meat of it, was in what she did after being forced to move.
In the exercise I am describing, the interesting thing is what happens before you are forced to move.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2011, 11:06 PM   #8
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,931
Offline
Re: being centered no matter what

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
Sorry I just realized that anyone reading might say, "well duh of course you don't move if the push is too light."

Just to clarify:
In the exercise Mary described, the interesting thing, the value or meat of it, was in what she did after being forced to move.
In the exercise I am describing, the interesting thing is what happens before you are forced to move.
May another party interject here (go ahead, try and stop me, I'm from Brooklyn...)...
I believe it can happen BOTH ways and there is no contradiction. Once can be centered, find the groundpath, not move.
One can be disrupted by the incoming, find one's center, find the groundpath, not move.
Me, I'm happy either way....
What was the OSensei quote or paraphrase? Something like, yeah I lose my center but I get it back before you notice.....

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2011, 03:13 AM   #9
Tim Ruijs
 
Tim Ruijs's Avatar
Dojo: Makato/Netherlands
Location: Netherlands - Leusden
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 395
Netherlands
Offline
Re: being centered no matter what

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
What was the OSensei quote or paraphrase? Something like, yeah I lose my center but I get it back before you notice.....
+1 Moving Zen comes to mind. Move from one stable posture to another, fluently. When done in harmony (at the right time, right speed) with your partner...

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2011, 04:30 AM   #10
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: being centered no matter what

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
I wasn't going to dispute anything because Mary didn't make any absolute judgements. But Graham, you did:

This is what I do, I won't say it is proper, but just so you know where I'm coming from:
1. force is applied
2. I don't move because it is going to ground
3. If the force increases too much, then my connection to the ki of the universe (heaven and earth anyone?) may become broken-- then I am moved by the applied force.
4. Then I have to forge a new connection to the universal ki..

As you can see, I was confused by Mary's initial description because from my POV some things happen in reverse order in her description.

Anyway let's not get too carried away with the "if you see it another way you will never understand" type comments, because I actually agree with / understand your big picture (see below)-- it is just methodology that differs.
Hi Jonathon.
Proper. By this I mean using centre as center wants to be used, Centre accepts whilst remaining undisturbed. Thus it allows. It allows the force to enter and thus dissipate. It allows the body to adjust in a non resistive absorbant way, hence the body movement which is merely natural adjustment.

In your example you describe a don't move situation which can be affected by more force which leads to disconnection and then reconnection.

That implies to me a lesser understanding of centre all be it still quite a good one. Why? Because you believe apparently that the body moving, adjusting, is due to lack of centre? I'm sure in Marys case this wasn't so.

Also you believe that much more force leads to disconnection? Thus you believe in disturbing centre? Most people do however centre is actually undisturbable and this is what I believe Mary was experiencing. Our own belief in it being disturbable is what makes it so, not the increased force. (in truth that is)

Therefore I am saying that any thoughts of body needing to be immovable is limited and prone to such continuous disconnection and reconnection issues. Centre is spiritual helping the body and it is that which needs to remain there no matter what not the other way around.

Hope this explains what I was acknowledging.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2011, 05:13 AM   #11
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,758
United_States
Offline
Re: being centered no matter what

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
Sorry I just realized that anyone reading might say, "well duh of course you don't move if the push is too light."

Just to clarify:
In the exercise Mary described, the interesting thing, the value or meat of it, was in what she did after being forced to move.
In the exercise I am describing, the interesting thing is what happens before you are forced to move.
my thought along the same line. reactive vs active. it's interesting to hear description of "being centered" from aikido and understand the playing with ground path from IS perspective. it's the same as this standing post exercise http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...3&postcount=34 that's the basic level. next level is to have two ukes push you in two different directions at the same time, for example, front-to-back and lift up at the same time. next level, send the push back to pusher after being push. next level, send the push back at the moment of contact, sort of setting up a force reflecting mirror using your body. there are a few exercises from IS folks that would help aikido folks to "being centered" in a short period of time (a few months), no mystical or spiritual required.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2011, 05:24 AM   #12
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: being centered no matter what

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
my thought along the same line. reactive vs active. it's interesting to hear description of "being centered" from aikido and understand the playing with ground path from IS perspective. it's the same as this standing post exercise http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...3&postcount=34 that's the basic level. next level is to have two ukes push you in two different directions at the same time, for example, front-to-back and lift up at the same time. next level, send the push back to pusher after being push. next level, send the push back at the moment of contact, sort of setting up a force reflecting mirror using your body. there are a few exercises from IS folks that would help aikido folks to "being centered" in a short period of time (a few months), no mystical or spiritual required.
Phi. That's all very well but it's ip and not centre as described by the op. It's nowhere near the same thing.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2011, 05:39 AM   #13
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,758
United_States
Offline
Re: being centered no matter what

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Phi. That's all very well but it's ip and not centre as described by the op. It's nowhere near the same thing.

Regards.G.
i begged the differ. from my point of view and my teachers which included Ikeda and Saotome, it is the same. matter of fact, a few month backs, i was attending class at Saotome dojo, he went through a number of similar exercises and said these were what O Sensei taught him so he passed them down to us. matter of fact, i was his uke and i was pushing him pretty hard. that small old man stood there, then proceed to bounce me back. sorry, but i took his words before your, since he had been an uchideshi with O Sensei and actually spent time with O Sensei vs you which i doubt had never spent a second hand-on time with O Sensei.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2011, 09:25 AM   #14
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,931
Offline
Re: being centered no matter what

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Phi. That's all very well but it's ip and not centre as described by the op. It's nowhere near the same thing.

Regards.G.
I disagree. I train in an aikido dojo whose lineage is direct via Tohei Sensei to my recently deceased teacher. The solo IP training exercises I do tie right into the body use of four principles, simply making them a little more explicit. I find them all totally congruent.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2011, 09:31 AM   #15
RonRagusa
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 657
United_States
Online
Re: being centered no matter what

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
Sorry I just realized that anyone reading might say, "well duh of course you don't move if the push is too light."

Just to clarify:
In the exercise Mary described, the interesting thing, the value or meat of it, was in what she did after being forced to move.
In the exercise I am describing, the interesting thing is what happens before you are forced to move.
Hi Jonathan -

Further clarification: When we practice this exercise the point is that we're not being forced to move. We're choosing to go where the push/pull/lift/compression leads us until there's nowhere left to go at which point our partner's force bleeds off into nothing.

More concretely: I stand in natural stance, Mary behind me with her hands resting on my back just below my shoulder line. From this position she is free to maneuver me in any direction(s). Let's say she pushes forward on my right shoulder. I will let my shoulder move forward, remaining centered and relaxed. At a point when my shoulder is fully "extended" and unable to move forward further it simply stops, none of the force is transferred to the rest of my body and I remain balanced and relaxed. She can then increase the amount of pressure applied to my shoulder and I'll remain standing, undisturbed. Obviously if she goes beyond my point of structural integrity I'll be forced to move to compensate, but that's not the point of the exercise. With continued practice I am able to handle greater and greater loads before my structure is compromised.

Best,

Ron

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2011, 10:12 AM   #16
JW
 
JW's Avatar
Location: San Francisco CA USA
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 509
Offline
Re: being centered no matter what

Hi Ron, thank you that is very illuminating. Look how many words have been thrown around and I misinterpreted one word in the OP: "moved." I thought it meant something like take a few steps away from starting position. But this is different:

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
I will let my shoulder move forward, remaining centered and relaxed. At a point when my shoulder is fully "extended" and unable to move forward further it simply stops, none of the force is transferred to the rest of my body and I remain balanced and relaxed.
Now I think there may be a bit more to it than what you said here (this is a forum after all, not the actual class), but I think you are talking about exactly what I am into, gone about in a certain way. That is, in this exercise the receiver has some slack in his body, and the exercise involves not letting that slack go to the "advantage" of the pusher (that is don't let the slack be used to unbalnce you). Instead, while the push is coming in, conscientiously settle into a "good" state, while the motion caused by the push eats up the slack. End result is a well-formed chain: ground, body parts, push. I think it's great.

My point of view would involve this being an introductory step toward a similar idea but without the initial slack. Employing the same method of resolution described in the original exercise, you would get there without the body having to physically travel: you could bring the stability of the final position into the initial position using intent/the mind.
Anyway if that is the next step, I hope it is clear to everyone that what is being discussed here is pretty much identical to what Phi decribed (in his link, plus his elaborations here).
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2011, 10:41 AM   #17
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: being centered no matter what

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
i begged the differ. from my point of view and my teachers which included Ikeda and Saotome, it is the same. matter of fact, a few month backs, i was attending class at Saotome dojo, he went through a number of similar exercises and said these were what O Sensei taught him so he passed them down to us. matter of fact, i was his uke and i was pushing him pretty hard. that small old man stood there, then proceed to bounce me back. sorry, but i took his words before your, since he had been an uchideshi with O Sensei and actually spent time with O Sensei vs you which i doubt had never spent a second hand-on time with O Sensei.
Ok. So what has a force reflecting mirror got to do with centre? I think two things are being mixed here as centre is mentioned in the same sentence as 'ground force.

If people think ground force is all part of centre then they are mistaken. Two different things, in fact one is called Koshi.

What exactly did Saotome tell you he was demonstrating?

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2011, 12:56 PM   #18
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,931
Offline
Re: being centered no matter what

I'm not Phi but I will say in my experience if you don't have a good center you can't establish a groundpath.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2011, 01:38 PM   #19
JW
 
JW's Avatar
Location: San Francisco CA USA
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 509
Offline
Re: being centered no matter what

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Two different things, in fact one is called Koshi.
I thought we covered that in the other thread: koshi is a word referring to a body part, the sacro-illial area, yes? Rather than being the name of the center or the ground-force.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2011, 02:24 PM   #20
JW
 
JW's Avatar
Location: San Francisco CA USA
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 509
Offline
Re: being centered no matter what

The 'koshi' thing actually reminds me of the arguments between Ashe Higgs and Mike Sigman, here and here.

To sum up, it basically went like this.
--------
Mike: you're not using internal strength, but your teacher is. You're not moving from the dantian.
Ashe: We don't use the dantian. We use the mingmen.
Mike: just because you know the word mingmen and that it should be involved, it doesn't mean you are doing anything right. That kind of talk doesn't necessarily violate any theory on its own, but by not acknowledging the fact that the mingmen is only a part of a bigger picture, you make yourself sound wrong.
....
--------
My point is this. There are different ways of using the body. In aikido, if there was no talk about "seika tanden," and more talk about "koshi," then I might be inclined to follow your point of view more, Graham. But the way I see it the things Mike and Dan, and here, Ron, talk about sound very familiar from my aikido point of view, while you saying "koshi" sounds different and unfamiliar to my aikido background. So from my point of view, the aikido way to move the body sounds more similar to Mike and Dan's posts than to yours, so I don't think of them as being 'outsiders.'

Anyway I'm just expressing what sounds weird and what sounds like the aikido that is taught in my experience. In other words I won't say there is nothing important about the koshi but I am not centering my worldview towards it. You could chalk this up to different perspectives on the same scene.

Last edited by JW : 08-04-2011 at 02:30 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2011, 02:48 PM   #21
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: being centered no matter what

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
The 'koshi' thing actually reminds me of the arguments between Ashe Higgs and Mike Sigman, here and here.

To sum up, it basically went like this.
--------
Mike: you're not using internal strength, but your teacher is. You're not moving from the dantian.
Ashe: We don't use the dantian. We use the mingmen.
Mike: just because you know the word mingmen and that it should be involved, it doesn't mean you are doing anything right. That kind of talk doesn't necessarily violate any theory on its own, but by not acknowledging the fact that the mingmen is only a part of a bigger picture, you make yourself sound wrong.
....
--------
My point is this. There are different ways of using the body. In aikido, if there was no talk about "seika tanden," and more talk about "koshi," then I might be inclined to follow your point of view more, Graham. But the way I see it the things Mike and Dan, and here, Ron, talk about sound very familiar from my aikido point of view, while you saying "koshi" sounds different and unfamiliar to my aikido background. So from my point of view, the aikido way to move the body sounds more similar to Mike and Dan's posts than to yours, so I don't think of them as being 'outsiders.'

Anyway I'm just expressing what sounds weird and what sounds like the aikido that is taught in my experience. In other words I won't say there is nothing important about the koshi but I am not centering my worldview towards it. You could chalk this up to different perspectives on the same scene.
Just to clarify about mingmen (around the L3 lower vertebra) and the dantien *point* (just below the navel). The dantien as a whole is like a strong, articulate basketball, etc., that contols the body through the lower spine and the "suit"/body-connectivity. The ball can be looked at as bounded by the diaphragm on top, the dantien acupoint on the front, the perineum on the bottom, and the mingmen on the back. It's one large ball, in actuality and normal movement is considered to originate at the mingmen point of the whole ball and to come back into the body at the dantien point (too complex to cover in a short post).

My point was that saying someone doesn't use the dantien but uses the mingmen is simply a non-sequitur and shows an error in understanding.

2 cents.

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2011, 06:52 PM   #22
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: being centered no matter what

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
I thought we covered that in the other thread: koshi is a word referring to a body part, the sacro-illial area, yes? Rather than being the name of the center or the ground-force.
Close. The area is correct yes. Different area than the centre. The point from which you experience what ip calls ground force yes.

Once again I'll differentiate further. They are both spiritual points aligned with the body.

If Mike calls this Mingmin then so be it. I'm unaware of any Aikido that uses such terminology be it Iwama or Tomiki et.al.

If those studying ip and relating it to Aikido are thus using that terminology then so be it. I didn't need it for the terminology inherent already sufficed. I must admit however that not many I have met have known the truth of Koshi and thus related all to centre.

I like your approach though. Good for you.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2011, 07:24 PM   #23
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: being centered no matter what

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
If Mike calls this Mingmin then so be it. I'm unaware of any Aikido that uses such terminology be it Iwama or Tomiki et.al.
Koshi is not mingmen, Graham. And you'd be surprised how many legitimate Japanese and Aikidoka know what it is since they use "ki", etc., exactly as the Chinese do. Perhaps, and I know this might be impossible to embrace, you have no idea what the conversation is about but you have such faith in yourself that it overcomes simple facts?

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2011, 08:38 AM   #24
Abasan
Dojo: Aiki Shoshinkan, Aiki Kenkyukai
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 813
Malaysia
Offline
Re: being centered no matter what

Phi, Did saotome Sensei bounced you by sinking his center or rounding his shoulders or moving his hara or did he just stand there keeping still. Did you bounce back feet first or shoulder first? Were your hands locked when you were pushing him? Was he standing shizentai
or in hanmi?

I wish you have a vid...

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2011, 01:29 PM   #25
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: being centered no matter what

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
I'm not Phi but I will say in my experience if you don't have a good center you can't establish a groundpath.
I agree. The development of centre comes first.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"One Point" - is it gone, or is it a matter of semantics? sefie Techniques 13 07-13-2007 08:14 AM
Does size matter... Adam Alexander General 45 02-02-2007 10:26 AM
Does Rank Really Matter? Nafis Zahir Training 126 12-01-2003 12:50 AM
Being centered w/ Ki flowing during techniques C. Emerson General 19 07-24-2003 11:16 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:10 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate