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Old 08-06-2011, 09:44 AM   #76
Lorel Latorilla
Location: Osaka
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 311
Japan
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Re: Aikido is Elbow Power

I swear, I should be always logged in because when I'm not logged in, I have to see this troll's posts. Jun, can you ban this guy already? The noise to signal ratio is tilting towards the noise side because of this troll.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
 
Old 08-06-2011, 09:47 AM   #77
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
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Re: Aikido is Elbow Power

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Me troll??? hahahahahahah I'm longer on aikido forums than you live. What is your contribution to Elbow power discussion? - zero. What is contribution of other IP fanatics? - zero content. Only mumbo jumbo incoherent ranting.Did you explained clearly how to develop Elbow power from your point of view? - non. Mike did it? - no. Dan did it? - no. So what you are doing here?

This forum is to discuss ideas. If your ideas are secret, too noble for us, commoners - I have no problem, but don't come here, you have nothing to contribute.

On the forum is like that - you don't give a content? - your credibility is null.

You guys coming to every aikido topic just to market your sectarian stuff and to inflate you ego. You don't practice aikido, know nothing about aikido ,still you are lecturing loudly how and what we should do. That's the only contribution, very negative one. So who in reality is trolling here


When you criticize aikido it is OK, and you expect that aikidoka will be happy. When somebody criticize your ideas - ooppss suddenly you are going on the barricades, call such person bad guy, uninformed and with closed mind etc...
what a hypocrisy, what a double standards.
So, please inform us on how many seminars/workshops of Mike, Dan, Ark that you have attended where you can make intelligent comparisons, contrasts, or be able to tell when other people who have gone are getting explanations right or wrong. What was that about hypocrisy? Who actually is guilty of it?

Actually, show us in your posts here in this thread where you actually explained *anything at all* about the topic at hand? You actually have anything to add to the topic? What was that about double standards? Who is actually guilty of it?

Please provide us with this "most" group that have left their previous arts. So far, the evidence points to you being completely and utterly wrong. Can you refute that?

How about lending some credence to your words and actually provide facts (real facts, not how you've redefined that term in this thread) to support your views?
 
Old 08-06-2011, 10:10 AM   #78
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
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Re: Aikido is Elbow Power

Disparage you? I'll tell you what..leave out comments about what. a mess I'm in, how I do things...that you don't have clue about and you will get more neutral replies from me.
There are any number of pros who do not agree. I don't see a need to attack people when they disagree with you.
your own abilities and mine...do not warrant. such surety.
Dan

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Actually, Dan, I did study those things and I've broken them down to where people are now actually getting them. And some very reputable Chinese experts have told me that... you seem to be desperately hunting for every negative story you can find to attack my reputation, but it's not going to change anything.

By grabbing words you didn't understand from QiJin, my posts, videos, etc.., and combining them with other patches of information you've apparently come up with the theory that Aikido uses essentially Chanssujin. You're tucking in all the buzzwords like "reverse breathing", "contradiction", and so on, but I have to ask you: have you seen any of that stuff laid out by someone like Tohei or etc., when they're trying to explain the art?

"Reeling" and "Winding" don't go down the road you're going, but I'll tell you what, why don't you lay out your case. I.e., let's hear a "debate" rather than a desperate attempt to disparage. You and I both know what you're doing and what you've done, but let's see you debate yours without constantly going to the personal attacks.

Mike Sigman
 
Old 08-06-2011, 11:15 AM   #79
Gary David
 
Gary David's Avatar
Location: Long Beach, CA
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 329
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Re: Aikido is Elbow Power

Nagababa
I've been involved in Aikido since 1974, before the internet was more than something used by universities and the military, before any of these forums and a time when learning was so regionalized that one was lucky if someone passed through that could offer some help. I live on the west coast so we had access to anyone coming through Hawaii, connections to there, to the San Francisco groups and for 3 years directly to Tohei Sensei who was teacher and friend to my teacher Harry Ishisaka, a friendship based on relationship build in Hawaii. Following Ishisaka Sensei passing my connections have flowed through a number of organizations connected to the Aikikai. In the 80's trained with Chiba Sensei, my group being part of his organization for a while at the time and in bits with all of the other 3rd generation deshi here. Of all of these Saotome Sensei had something that was beyond waza and just hard technical training. I kept looking around for help with finding what that was....... mostly just came in contact with folks who wanted to fly around the mat doing waza. Of course over time you have to acquire some base and the ability to work through hard holds. At some point all of this fast waza, kick-ass training starts to fall apart and the soft compliant training never worked anyway. All my friends from those days now have bad knees and hard to work hips. There has to be more to all of this.....

I will always acknowledge Mike Sigman for responding to my questions and being willing to do meetups and a workshop. Mike set some path markers in place for me. When he told me essentially "I had a long ways to go" I took that as a challenge and being the searcher that I can be I continued to look for processes and tools that fit me. In this search I hooked up with Mark Murray when he came out to Los Angels on business. For all my years of going with the flow, blending, following, extending ki, years of hard waza training.....I couldn't do anything with him. Of course I could have hit him or used a chair, but my stand approach to nikkyo and the like didn't work. Mark's connection got me to Dan Harden. Now maybe I have a little east coast in me I don't know, but I liked the guy straight off. When Dan told me that I suck I took it as a friendly way of pointing out my level. Dan's approaches and tool fit ME so this is were I work. Meeting Dan's students (I mean those that train with him in his dojo and not those of us who have once or twice a year contact) you just like them. They all do what they say they can at the level they say they can and are just nice people. I call Dan friend as well and Mark.

The connection first with Mike and then with Dan has reopened my closeness with a couple of same age friends who are very capable and into which Dan's approach fits quite well. One is John Clodig who at one time was a close in student of Don Angier and the other Walter Muryasz who had a lot of face time with Tohei Sensei back in the '70s. John is aikijutsu and Walter is all about movement in response to touch and energy. I am talking all of this because none of these folks are in it for the money......

Elbow power......my add...secondary pressure...intention through the elbow......

just go straight
Gary
 
Old 08-06-2011, 11:42 AM   #80
stan baker
Location: east granby, ct
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 174
Wake Island
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Re: Aikido is Elbow Power

Hi Mike
when and who are the reputable experts that have told you.
and what have they told you,I think you can share that.

stan
 
Old 08-06-2011, 12:50 PM   #81
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
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Re: Aikido is Elbow Power

Quote:
Stan Baker wrote: View Post
Hi Mike
when and who are the reputable experts that have told you.
and what have they told you,I think you can share that.

stan
No fawning Beta Pack Dogs, please. Let's not take an "Elbow Power" thread and ruin it.

Stan, let's see you post something substantive. After all the years that you've "doing martial arts", surely you can give us the scoop on what Elbow Power is?

Mike Sigman
 
Old 08-06-2011, 12:50 PM   #82
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
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Re: Aikido is Elbow Power

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Me troll??? hahahahahahah I'm longer on aikido forums than you live. What is your contribution to Elbow power discussion? - zero. What is contribution of other IP fanatics? - zero content. Only mumbo jumbo incoherent ranting.Did you explained clearly how to develop Elbow power from your point of view? - non. Mike did it? - no. Dan did it? - no. So what you are doing here?

This forum is to discuss ideas. If your ideas are secret, too noble for us, commoners - I have no problem, but don't come here, you have nothing to contribute.

On the forum is like that - you don't give a content? - your credibility is null.

You guys coming to every aikido topic just to market your sectarian stuff and to inflate you ego. You don't practice aikido, know nothing about aikido ,still you are lecturing loudly how and what we should do. That's the only contribution, very negative one. So who in reality is trolling here


When you criticize aikido it is OK, and you expect that aikidoka will be happy. When somebody criticize your ideas - ooppss suddenly you are going on the barricades, call such person bad guy, uninformed and with closed mind etc...
what a hypocrisy, what a double standards.
SJ has a point...and so does Sigman, Harden and the rest...I just wish you guys could imagine me buying you dinner and having a respectful informative debate/discussion that left everyone a little better informed and excited at the prospect of learning something new that makes their practice "better".

I admit that in the past I let my petty ego get in the way on this forum and it did nothing but hurt my prospects of getting a chance to connect with some really good teachers. It has only hurt me...

Hopefully some of you are asking the same questions of yourselves.

I think my friend Gary said it best.

We have a code in one of the groups I am a long term member of...

Principles above personalities.

William Hazen
 
Old 08-06-2011, 02:10 PM   #83
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
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Re: Aikido is Elbow Power

You know, and good discussion forum needs people like Chris Hein, Szczepan, etc., for legitimate questioning of the orthodoxy, suggested ideas, and so on. Sure, it can go too far sometimes, but I never worry much about it.... discord often forces thinking and good results come from that. In trying to rebut someone, often a lot of people are forced to formulate their thoughts before they articulate. So they gain in the exchange. Besides, it always strikes me that instead of arguing with someone unproductively, it's better to let them go and live with what they already know.

In terms of Elbow Power, there are only two aspects that need to be looked at: qi/suit and jin.

Qi/suit is what conveys power, mainly, although it's a storage device too and a couple of other things. In terms of the 'elbow power', it's not something you need to "spiral" or anything, since its main function is to connect the elbow to the dantien.

Jin forces from the ground are linear; any "winding" as such only serves to store or enhance the linear jin. "There is only one jin" ... everything else is just ways of handling the linear aspect of the ground jin. Down jin is also linear at heart, but let's leave it out and keep the discussion simple. What makes the ground-derived jin so important is that the support of the ground takes the place of muscle-produced force. Hence the ground-support needs to go the shortest possible path from the ground to point of application and in a simple example we would see the jin path go from ground to hip to center across to arm and then target. If someone's power goes up and through his shoulder, it cannot be the ground-jin, obviously. So using the shoulder for power means you're not using the ground-jin (aka part of the "Qi of Earth"). And therefore any 'spiraling' of jin simply does not compute except where spiraling of the qi/suit adds some power to go along with the basic jin. If you understand the ground-jin and the fact that "there is only one jin", the conclusion is obvious.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
 
Old 08-06-2011, 08:43 PM   #84
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
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Re: Aikido is Elbow Power

This idea, that the ground arrives in one place and is linear conveys a foundational mistake. It also violates some important aspects of Ueshiba's Budo, Datio ryu and koryu as well. It does explain why you move like you do in your videos, what you teach, and why you hold so many mistaken views on weapon use.
I think many of your theories are things you read somewhere but haven't really fleshed out yet in a budo framework. Some of your stuff just won't pan out in a broader budo sense. I only mention these things for others to keep thinking and searching.
Dan
 
Old 08-06-2011, 08:50 PM   #85
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
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Re: Aikido is Elbow Power

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
This idea, that the ground arrives in one place and is linear conveys a foundational mistake. It also violates some important aspects of Ueshiba's Budo, Datio ryu and koryu as well. It does explain why you move like you do in your videos, what you teach, and why you hold so many mistaken views on weapon use.
I think many of your theories are things you read somewhere but haven't really fleshed out yet in a budo framework. Some of your stuff just won't pan out in a broader budo sense. I only mention these things for others to keep thinking and searching.
Er, where (as in "quotation please") has anyone said "arrives in one place"?

That being said, checkmate. You're done. You just don't realize it and think you can BS your way out of it. Trying to hide behind "Japanese stuff is different" is a lost argument that sells only to people who can't think beyond that sort of statement.

Mike Sigman
 

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