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Old 08-03-2011, 03:50 PM   #51
aikilouis
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Re: Aikido is Elbow Power

The two elbow power exercises are described in detail in Gozo Shioda's book Total Aikido (starting page 32).

 
Old 08-03-2011, 08:26 PM   #52
NagaBaba
 
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Re: Aikido is Elbow Power

As we can see very clearly our local IP Gods can't explain very clearly Elbow Power. Additionally they immediately start nasty arguing between them, and then start to explain their own explanations, and explain explanation of their explanations........

In summary, nobody knows(God's included) what they talking about.

So we, mortals, are left with nothing!

Suddenly, hey, you simple humans, there is still a hope!!!

YOUTUBE !!!!!!!!
Here is THE MAN. His ukes are agonizing, groaning, suffer horrible tortures, but he is able very clearly explain what Elbow Power is. Watch carefully from 8:00

Real stuff, no kidding

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
 
Old 08-03-2011, 08:37 PM   #53
graham christian
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Re: Aikido is Elbow Power

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
As we can see very clearly our local IP Gods can't explain very clearly Elbow Power. Additionally they immediately start nasty arguing between them, and then start to explain their own explanations, and explain explanation of their explanations........

In summary, nobody knows(God's included) what they talking about.

So we, mortals, are left with nothing!

Suddenly, hey, you simple humans, there is still a hope!!!

YOUTUBE !!!!!!!!
Here is THE MAN. His ukes are agonizing, groaning, suffer horrible tortures, but he is able very clearly explain what Elbow Power is. Watch carefully from 8:00

Real stuff, no kidding
Is that it??? I see no elbow power. I merely see the use of one point in a 'show off' manner.

Regards.G.
 
Old 08-03-2011, 09:03 PM   #54
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido is Elbow Power

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
So we, mortals, are left with nothing!
I dunno.... what the guy does is pretty hokey and he has well-trained dive-bunnies, but what he's trying to show is basically what has already been described in the thread. Did you ever have anything to start with?

M.
 
Old 08-04-2011, 02:21 AM   #55
wxyzabc
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Re: Aikido is Elbow Power

Dan

mmm I can easily understand Mike's explanation of creating a ground path from the elbow...but you say you're talking about something else. There is also the ability to create opposing tension in the inner "suit' without the need to create a ground path.

Is there anything else??

Kindest regards

Lee
 
Old 08-04-2011, 08:15 AM   #56
Cliff Judge
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Re: Aikido is Elbow Power

A couple of weeks ago, I saw Bill Gleason make a point about aiki age. To avoid using the shoulder muscles, you move your elbow closer to uke. Works for me, but I wish I could generalize the principle to help with my aiki sage.
 
Old 08-04-2011, 08:18 AM   #57
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido is Elbow Power

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
A couple of weeks ago, I saw Bill Gleason make a point about aiki age. To avoid using the shoulder muscles, you move your elbow closer to uke. Works for me, but I wish I could generalize the principle to help with my aiki sage.
That's interesting. How would it work, in terms of avoiding shoulder usage?

Regards,

Mike
 
Old 08-04-2011, 08:32 AM   #58
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Re: Aikido is Elbow Power

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
That's interesting. How would it work, in terms of avoiding shoulder usage?

Regards,

Mike
puts you in a more "under them" position which lessens the role of the shoulder in the lift.
 
Old 08-04-2011, 02:11 PM   #59
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Re: Aikido is Elbow Power

Aikido is simply body dynamics. well, ok not so simple, but still.

When aite exerts force on you, you try to direct the force to mother earth through your structure (skeleton). The wrist, lower arm, upper arm create an arch that can manage a lot of force. Problem is that force easily finds ground/base in the shoulder, but should in fact find its way into your back, his, legs and finally earth.

Even better is off course that aite cannot find any ground 'in' you and cannot exert force to your body. Aite is off balance trying to find the counterforce in your structure where there is none. In fact you now control aite. The way of no resistance. Ultimately this is about ma-ai.
At least that is what I think.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
 
Old 08-04-2011, 08:28 PM   #60
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Re: Aikido is Elbow Power

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I dunno.... what the guy does is pretty hokey and he has well-trained dive-bunnies, but what he's trying to show is basically what has already been described in the thread. Did you ever have anything to start with?

M.
At least for me those 'explanations' are completely incomprehensible. I suspect that even you don't understand what you are talking about.
However, the video is helpful to demystify all this nonsense.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
 
Old 08-04-2011, 08:36 PM   #61
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Re: Aikido is Elbow Power

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
At least for me those 'explanations' are completely incomprehensible.
Yeah, that's what I was trying to say.



Mike
 
Old 08-05-2011, 01:01 AM   #62
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: Aikido is Elbow Power

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
At least for me those 'explanations' are completely incomprehensible. I suspect that even you don't understand what you are talking about.
However, the video is helpful to demystify all this nonsense.
The loony tunes are not even this funny... if I should be so stupid to act like this with my teacher he would probably slap me.

I have watched reasonable material of the late Sunadomari Sensei and that stuff is much more convincing.

Last edited by Tim Ruijs : 08-05-2011 at 01:03 AM.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
 
Old 08-05-2011, 08:19 PM   #63
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Re: Aikido is Elbow Power

Quote:
Lee Price wrote: View Post
Dan
mmm I can easily understand Mike's explanation of creating a ground path from the elbow...but you say you're talking about something else. There is also the ability to create opposing tension in the inner "suit' without the need to create a ground path.
Is there anything else??
Kindest regards
Lee
Hi Lee, nothing personal But I am not that much interested in whether or not things are easily understood on the net. There is a false premise that all things are easy to explain and if you don't want or care to do it then you don't know it. It's pure bullshit that some of you are whole heartedly buying into. Many things are more complete than the basic understandings that Mike always states and quotes.
As an example:
Quote:
Mike writes:
Generally, the power from the ground goes up the legs to hips and dantien and then the shortest path to the point of application. If you try to route the ground power up over the shoulders, you wind up with "normal" strength, not internal strength. Some Chinese styles (particularly southern styles like Wing Chun, Hakka, etc) keep the elbows and forearms in that line from the waist in order to maximize the power flow. Here's a translation from one of Tung Ying Chieh's books from the 1940's mentioning the idea:
"To loosen the shoulders and drop the elbows means not to concentrate the force at the back of the shoulders. Actually, the strength is transmitted through the upper part of the forearm."
The idea is a fairly common one in a number of Chinese martial-arts.
2 cents.
Mike Sigman
"The idea is a fairly common one in a number of Chinese martial-arts" might more accurately be stated that this is your understanding of the Chinese arts.

These two lines are particularly flawed.
"keep the elbows and forearms in that line from the waist in order to maximize the power flow
Actually, the strength is transmitted through the upper part of the forearm."'

I think people quote a lot and use buzz words and really don't have the experience in application to quite understand what they are reading.

While looking at this we can also examine how it ties in with the all too common specialty of the taiji one-legged-army and the back and forth movement and the erroneous ideas expressed in this dantien, elbow, and hand in a single line.
Here is another Chen Taiji Master class teacher:
"Forward and backward movement do not belong to Chen style. One small wrong movement and the posture is lost. At this time it is up to the spiral of the legs. The spiral of the leg uses on shun and one ni. The power of the hand and of the elbow is also forbidden to be double heavy (both expressing the same power)
And in the same passage:
At this time you must face forward, directly toward the opponent. The shoulder, elbow and hand, must use yin and yang. (expressing opposite power)

There is more to truly explain how this effect is so profound when force is applied to you, but I will just say that the legs, waist, hara, elbow and hand are moving in opposing spirals (always the union of opposites) and never in a line from dantien elbow to hand. That is low level understanding and Ueshiba didn't move that way either.

Morihei Ueshiba's own terminology on movement (now properly translated):
"Face your enemy and move with inside and outside spirals on opposite sides of the body
"The ways of stepping with the feet are outside-spirals and inside-spirals. This is taught in practice."


"This is taught in practice….." is an interesting comment. I agree. I wonder if Ueshiba would be here debating it with Szczepan on the internet because Szczepan hadn't heard of Ueshiba's "mumbo jumbo" in his own art before?
In short, I'm not going to deate it either.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 08-05-2011 at 08:32 PM.
 
Old 08-05-2011, 09:51 PM   #64
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Re: Aikido is Elbow Power

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post

"This is taught in practice….." is an interesting comment. I agree. I wonder if Ueshiba would be here debating it with Szczepan on the internet because Szczepan hadn't heard of Ueshiba's "mumbo jumbo" in his own art before?
In short, I'm not going to deate it either.
Dan
Debating? Dan, you must be kidding.... To debate we will have to have something tangible. Meanwhile all we have is a smoke.

You've tried to articulate your ideas already on Aikido-L, ten years later, still nothing. The best you can do is to insult ppl.Look what did happen on ebudo forum...
The results of your 'pedagogical approach" after 5 years is close to null if we have to believe your students. Most of them quit regular training of their previous arts, and in reality are doing nothing at all. These are the facts.
How can any reasonable person can take you seriously? You are living in some kind of imaginary world.

All this is only a smoke.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
 
Old 08-05-2011, 10:10 PM   #65
gregstec
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Re: Aikido is Elbow Power

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
The results of your 'pedagogical approach" after 5 years is close to null if we have to believe your students. Most of them quit regular training of their previous arts, and in reality are doing nothing at all. These are the facts.
All this is only a smoke.
Exactly how do you come to the above conclusion? and just how many of Dan's students do you know? the answer is none - and for the few of us that did answer questions in the other thread about our IP/IT training, most of the input was from a modest perspective - has there been improvement in our martial ability from the training? in short, you betcha - just come to see any of us and we will be glad to demonstrate just how effective.

Greg
 
Old 08-05-2011, 10:31 PM   #66
wxyzabc
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Re: Aikido is Elbow Power

Hya Dan

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I'm guessing a lot of people read something like that once and dismiss it through misunderstanding on their part (easily done and a big mistake to be sure).

If you don't mind I'm going to go away and think about all that...and then probably come back with some questions

Kindest regards

Lee
 
Old 08-05-2011, 10:46 PM   #67
MM
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Re: Aikido is Elbow Power

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Look what did happen on ebudo forum...
Er, do *you* know what happened? I was an admin on E-Budo. Were you? Were you privy to all of the conversations going on both in public and private? Did you have any kind of say in determining any outcome on E-Budo? Let's see ... No, no, no, and no. So, you're basically speaking from a very uninformed view and trying to pass it off as being something, what, bad? It really isn't worth the effort to drag this subject back into the present. Please let it go.

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
The results of your 'pedagogical approach" after 5 years is close to null if we have to believe your students. Most of them quit regular training of their previous arts, and in reality are doing nothing at all. These are the facts.
Really? Facts? You sure? Hmm ... just from the people who have posted here or been mentioned. Bill Gleason - still doing aikido. Rob Liberti - still doing aikido. Howard Popkin - still doing Daito ryu. Greg Steckel - still doing Daito ryu. Far as I know, Lee is still doing his art. Chris Li is still doing aikido. Allen Beebe is still doing "aikido". Gary hasn't changed his routine of teaching an aikido class every now and then. Where is this majority of people you know? Please present us with this majority. Or are you speaking from a very uninformed view and trying to pass it off as facts?

My suggestion would be to actually show up at some workshops and meet the people training. Then, after a few of them, you can take stock of who's doing what. I've been there, done that. "Most" are still in their arts. They are ecstatic about their progress and results. IHTBF, not read.

For those reading, here you have someone who has never been to a workshop while I've been out there at the workshops meeting the people training. Most have stayed in their arts and have expressed positively that this training is making their art better. But, you can believe whomever you like.

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
How can any reasonable person can take you seriously? You are living in some kind of imaginary world.

All this is only a smoke.
There are two kinds of people out there. The good, reasonable Budo people who, when reading about something different and possibly outside their comfort zone, go and get hands on direct experience.

Then there is the keyboard warrior who reads about something different, decides from reading online that it isn't worth the effort, and then proceeds to become an expert at debunking the subject. At times, these people attack the personalities online.

Which are you, Szczepan Janczuk, going to choose to be?
 
Old 08-05-2011, 10:52 PM   #68
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Aikido is Elbow Power

Seriously guys. Ignore that troll. It will make your life better.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
 
Old 08-06-2011, 01:51 AM   #69
dps
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Re: Aikido is Elbow Power

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Seriously guys. Ignore that troll. It will make your life better.
Ok, I will put Dan on my ignore list, or is it Mike you are talking about?

dps
 
Old 08-06-2011, 06:15 AM   #70
stan baker
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Re: Aikido is Elbow Power

Szczepan's main interests are windsurfing and snowboarding he may know sonething about those things.

stan
 
Old 08-06-2011, 07:30 AM   #71
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido is Elbow Power

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
"Forward and backward movement do not belong to Chen style. One small wrong movement and the posture is lost. At this time it is up to the spiral of the legs. The spiral of the leg uses on shun and one ni. The power of the hand and of the elbow is also forbidden to be double heavy (both expressing the same power)
And in the same passage:
At this time you must face forward, directly toward the opponent. The shoulder, elbow and hand, must use yin and yang. (expressing opposite power)

There is more to truly explain how this effect is so profound when force is applied to you, but I will just say that the legs, waist, hara, elbow and hand are moving in opposing spirals (always the union of opposites) and never in a line from dantien elbow to hand. That is low level understanding and Ueshiba didn't move that way either.
OMG..... I finally get what you're trying to tell people. A lot of things are suddenly very clear. Er, Dan... you're misunderstanding a couple of things. When did you study the Chen-style and Six-Harmonies movement? The easiest way for you to get out of this mess is to get away from the spiral stuff ( you don't understand what you're saying) and just drop back to "the jin that starts at the feet, is directed by the waist, and expressed in the fingers. You're mixing up "intent" and "qi".

Just trying to be helpful.

Mike Sigman

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 08-06-2011 at 07:40 AM.
 
Old 08-06-2011, 07:50 AM   #72
DH
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Re: Aikido is Elbow Power

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Debating? Dan, you must be kidding.... To debate we will have to have something tangible. Meanwhile all we have is a smoke.
You've tried to articulate your ideas already on Aikido-L, ten years later, still nothing. The best you can do is to insult ppl.Look what did happen on ebudo forum...
How can any reasonable person can take you seriously? You are living in some kind of imaginary world.
All this is only a smoke.
Smoke?Actually these things are known to thousands of martial artists who use them to one degree or another. Your ignorance of these things does not alter or change the deeper understanding in Budo, or your founders awarenes of them.

Ebudo? Is that still going?
They had a moderator who actually altered peoples posts, erased posts of people for disagreeing with his positions. So I quit.

As for people I train quitting their arts? Bill Gleason is about to pull in, along with teachers and students of Aikido, koryu, karate, BJJ, ICMA, and Daito ryu. I'll say hello for you.

Do some research, Szczepan, or at least argue better, your sounding a bit desperate. Even though you are allowed to attack me personally on aikiweb, at least have some self respect and go after me intelligently.
Dan
 
Old 08-06-2011, 08:28 AM   #73
DH
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Re: Aikido is Elbow Power

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
OMG..... I finally get what you're trying to tell people. A lot of things are suddenly very clear. Er, Dan... you're misunderstanding a couple of things. When did you study the Chen-style and Six-Harmonies movement? The easiest way for you to get out of this mess is to get away from the spiral stuff ( you don't understand what you're saying) and just drop back to "the jin that starts at the feet, is directed by the waist, and expressed in the fingers. You're mixing up "intent" and "qi".

Just trying to be helpful.
Mike Sigman
When did you study the Chen-style and Six-Harmonies movement?
When did you?
There is a level of understanding you missed that is obvious in your movement to many people. Again, you allude to knowing more and then you offer....nothing. Nor have you been able to convince many by demonstrating either. There is a difference that can be explained between the two texts, and how it relates to the subject of the thread, but I doubt you can explain it.
No matter, after reading your stuff, then watching you move, I no longer am interested in debating you. I didn't write that for your benefit.
Good luck in your pursuits.
Dan
 
Old 08-06-2011, 08:45 AM   #74
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido is Elbow Power

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
When did you study the Chen-style and Six-Harmonies movement?
When did you?
There is a level of understanding you missed that is obvious in your movement to many people. Again, you allude to knowing more and then you offer....nothing. Nor have you been able to convince many by demonstrating either. There is a difference that can be explained between the two texts, and how it relates to the subject of the thread, but I doubt you can explain it.
No matter, after reading your stuff, then watching you move, I no longer am interested in debating you. I didn't write that for your benefit.
Actually, Dan, I did study those things and I've broken them down to where people are now actually getting them. And some very reputable Chinese experts have told me that... you seem to be desperately hunting for every negative story you can find to attack my reputation, but it's not going to change anything.

By grabbing words you didn't understand from QiJin, my posts, videos, etc.., and combining them with other patches of information you've apparently come up with the theory that Aikido uses essentially Chanssujin. You're tucking in all the buzzwords like "reverse breathing", "contradiction", and so on, but I have to ask you: have you seen any of that stuff laid out by someone like Tohei or etc., when they're trying to explain the art?

"Reeling" and "Winding" don't go down the road you're going, but I'll tell you what, why don't you lay out your case. I.e., let's hear a "debate" rather than a desperate attempt to disparage. You and I both know what you're doing and what you've done, but let's see you debate yours without constantly going to the personal attacks.

Mike Sigman
 
Old 08-06-2011, 09:15 AM   #75
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Re: Aikido is Elbow Power

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Seriously guys. Ignore that troll. It will make your life better.
Me troll??? hahahahahahah I'm longer on aikido forums than you live. What is your contribution to Elbow power discussion? - zero. What is contribution of other IP fanatics? - zero content. Only mumbo jumbo incoherent ranting.Did you explained clearly how to develop Elbow power from your point of view? - non. Mike did it? - no. Dan did it? - no. So what you are doing here?

This forum is to discuss ideas. If your ideas are secret, too noble for us, commoners - I have no problem, but don't come here, you have nothing to contribute.

On the forum is like that - you don't give a content? - your credibility is null.

You guys coming to every aikido topic just to market your sectarian stuff and to inflate you ego. You don't practice aikido, know nothing about aikido ,still you are lecturing loudly how and what we should do. That's the only contribution, very negative one. So who in reality is trolling here


When you criticize aikido it is OK, and you expect that aikidoka will be happy. When somebody criticize your ideas - ooppss suddenly you are going on the barricades, call such person bad guy, uninformed and with closed mind etc...
what a hypocrisy, what a double standards.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
 

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