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Old 08-03-2011, 05:02 AM   #1
Michael Varin
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
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5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

Hello All,

I have been away from AikiWeb for some time, and have done some reflecting on the discussions here and my contributions to them.

I realized that some of you have been training specifically in "IP/IT/IS" for over five years.

I am looking for responses from Mark Murray and Rob Liberti and others, stating specifically how "IP/IT/IS" has benefited them, and what increases in effectiveness/abilities they have experienced. What they are looking for in the future. What is holding them back. And what disparity from their expectations they have experienced.

There is no judgment, positive or negative, implied in this thread, just curiosity.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 08-03-2011, 09:28 AM   #2
MM
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

Actually, it hasn't been 5 years yet. I met Dan in Oct of 2006. I wouldn't exactly call that a "training" session.

The next meeting was with Mike Sigman and Rob John and that was a training workshop. That was in Feb 2007.

I trained with Dan in Mar 2007. Workshops attended from Feb 2007 to the present.

With Rob John: 1
With Mike: 2
With Dan: 15

In 4 years and 5 months, I've had 17 seminars. An average of 3-4 per year.

Typically these are 2 day workshops. If we look at 8 hours per day, 2 days, we have 272 hours. Figure an average training week is 3 days at 2 hours a day for 6 hours. I've racked up about 45 training days over 4.5 years.

How far can one progress in that amount of time for Modern Aikido within those parameters? Would one even get past white belt?

I'm more stable now. The only person in aikido who can get me in a joint lock is Bill Gleason. I am getting better so that he has to work at it. I've played around with a judo person who outweighed me by 100 pounds and he couldn't throw me. It is much harder to get kuzushi on me.

But, since I stopped training aikido, I haven't actually had the chance to experience just how different I am. In that regard, I'd have to say I'm not really sure. Sorry. Would like to get together with you to talk and play around, but we're on different coasts. I've been thinking about going to a local judo or BJJ school to play just because, like you, I am curious.

As for the others ... if I remember correctly, none of them are at 5 years yet, either. Maybe 4-5 months shy.

The future? Getting better and better. I have progressed and I can tell I am progressing. It's only getting better. I look for the next few years to start generating Internal Power, spirals, kuzushi on contact, asagao, fure aiki, and elbow power.

Holding me back? Me. I just don't do the exercises enough. I don't put enough time into them. In the last 7 months, I haven't done hardly any training. I hate it, too. Then again, don't we all when we get like that.

Mark
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Old 08-03-2011, 09:48 AM   #3
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I've been thinking about going to a local judo or BJJ school to play just because, like you, I am curious.
If you go to "play" with a BJJ'er your size and 5 years of training time record it on video please,

I'm curious too.

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Old 08-03-2011, 10:30 AM   #4
MM
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
If you go to "play" with a BJJ'er your size and 5 years of training time record it on video please,

I'm curious too.
Since I have 0 hours training in BJJ, I probably would video it. LOL! Because I have 45 days aiki versus 5 years BJJ. If I could hold my own, that'd be something.
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Old 08-03-2011, 10:54 AM   #5
MM
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

I had a math mistake pointed out. I have 45 weeks in training and not days. Workshop total is correct because Rob and Mike did one together.
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Old 08-03-2011, 10:58 AM   #6
Gorgeous George
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Since I have 0 hours training in BJJ, I probably would video it. LOL! Because I have 45 days aiki versus 5 years BJJ. If I could hold my own, that'd be something.
But you could easily nullify the judoka...
Is BJJ completely different from judo?
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Old 08-03-2011, 11:08 AM   #7
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
But you could easily nullify the judoka...
If american.

Quote:
Is BJJ completely different from judo?
Funnier and safer, IME

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Old 08-03-2011, 11:15 AM   #8
jester
 
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I've played around with a judo person who outweighed me by 100 pounds and he couldn't throw me. It is much harder to get kuzushi on me.
Were you actively attacking him or just defending?

-

-It seems to be all about semantics!
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Old 08-03-2011, 11:26 AM   #9
Mike Sigman
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
The next meeting was with Mike Sigman and Rob John and that was a training workshop. That was in Feb 2007.
If you mean that time a bunch of us met in a parking lot for a get-together/show-and-tell, that wasn't a workshop, as I remember it.

If you mean that show and tell at Jim Sorrentino's that wasn't really a workshop either. That was more like a brief in-service.

Mike
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Old 08-03-2011, 11:42 AM   #10
MM
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
If you mean that time a bunch of us met in a parking lot for a get-together/show-and-tell, that wasn't a workshop, as I remember it.

If you mean that show and tell at Jim Sorrentino's that wasn't really a workshop either. That was more like a brief in-service.

Mike
Yeah, that was the reference. In-service, it is. Wasn't really a true workshop, I agree. But it was more than a meet and greet.
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Old 08-03-2011, 11:48 AM   #11
MM
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
Were you actively attacking him or just defending?

-
Defending. It was just playing around and not tournament kind of serious. Made me curious about going to a judo place, though.
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Old 08-03-2011, 11:57 AM   #12
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

So Mark,

How are you going to compare your progress if you don't have experience in serious alive rolling/randori with competent partners?.

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Old 08-03-2011, 02:31 PM   #13
gregstec
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

Like Mark, I am less than five years into the type of IP/IT being discussed around here - about three years with Dan and about four and half years with Howard Popkin and DR aiki - although I have considerably more time and experience with Tohei's ki stuff, I do not consider that the same as the IP/IT from Dan and DR. However, it does provide a good foundation for learning their IP/IT.

So far, I am not faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, nor able to leap tall buildings in a single bound - maybe next year

On a serious note, I do the occasional Aikido seminar and I have found that I am better connected, softer, and more relaxed in technique application - and I have found that there are only three people that I can not stop from taking my balance during waza- those three being Dan, Howard, and Bill Gleason.

Greg
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Old 08-03-2011, 06:40 PM   #14
asiawide
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

My IP/IT/IS experiences are

Aunkai seminar : 2 times (5 hours per seminar)
Rob's coaching : 2 times (about 1 hour per session)
plus valuable info from Neijia forum
Solo training : 1 hour per day. 3~4 times a week since mid 2009.

Results are

1. Got a clue for doing kokyuho/aikiage/or whatever it called
I confess I couldn't do that and got no clues though I've been doing aikido for many years.

2. Easy to stop or nullify nage's techniques though I'm not resisting that much. Fix my dive-bunny habit too.

3. Others grumble that I'm heavier than before.

4. Feel connected when nage/uke push/pull me instatntly.

5. Feel more stable and comfortable in seiza

6. Can detect whether nage/uke is solid or float.

Of course these results are not much helping me to apply techniques to other people. And I'm just an average pain-in-the-ass&hard-to-throw joe in the dojo.

But I believe this baby step is a starting point to get better in the future.
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Old 08-04-2011, 09:46 AM   #15
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

In short: no big increases in performance even in a cooperative training environment.

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Old 08-04-2011, 10:13 AM   #16
vjw
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
In short: no big increases in performance even in a cooperative training environment.
He has had just 12 hours of instruction in two years and has made a great effort to work alone. Your remark is very unfair.
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Old 08-04-2011, 10:27 AM   #17
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

Unfair?

They were given the holy grail, the key for the awesomeness, the ultimate source of martial power, the door of the mad skillz was opened to them and...

Basically nothing achieved.

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Old 08-04-2011, 10:31 AM   #18
Rabih Shanshiry
 
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
They were given the holy grail, the key for the awesomeness, the ultimate source of martial power, the door of the mad skillz was opened to them and...

Basically nothing achieved.
El burro hablando de orejas.
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Old 08-04-2011, 10:33 AM   #19
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

Sorry, I dont understand mexican insults. Try in Spanish.

Thanks in advance.

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Old 08-04-2011, 10:36 AM   #20
Rabih Shanshiry
 
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

It wasn't an insult; it was an observation. What greatness have your methods achieved in 35 years of training? Perhaps you should not be so critical of others.

Last edited by Rabih Shanshiry : 08-04-2011 at 10:43 AM.
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Old 08-04-2011, 10:43 AM   #21
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Unfair?

They were given the holy grail, the key for the awesomeness, the ultimate source of martial power, the door of the mad skillz was opened to them and...

Basically nothing achieved.
Hi Demetrio,

Feeling kinda left out there and bitter there? LOL

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 08-04-2011, 10:44 AM   #22
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

Yeah, Demetrio...what have you gained after training in 35 years? Curious.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 08-04-2011, 10:46 AM   #23
Gerardo Torres
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post

Basically nothing achieved.
asiawide wrote:

Quote:
1. Got a clue for doing kokyuho/aikiage/or whatever it called
I confess I couldn't do that and got no clues though I've been doing aikido for many years.

2. Easy to stop or nullify nage's techniques though I'm not resisting that much. Fix my dive-bunny habit too.

3. Others grumble that I'm heavier than before.

4. Feel connected when nage/uke push/pull me instatntly.

5. Feel more stable and comfortable in seiza

6. Can detect whether nage/uke is solid or float.
After 12 hours instruction and working by himself he got initiated or improved:

- directing energy
- using less muscle
- feeling heavier to partners
- connected body / connection
- became more stable
- increased sensitivity

So nothing eh? I thought these things were kind of important in martial arts.
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Old 08-04-2011, 10:48 AM   #24
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Yeah, Demetrio...what have you gained after training in 35 years? Curious.
Me? Nothing.

A pair of people around... more time in this planet.

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Old 08-04-2011, 10:51 AM   #25
JW
 
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Re: 5+ years with "IP/IT/IS"

Mark did say he was interested in going to a BJJ or judo place, to check on things.
Demetrio, competetive practice aside, what progress would you expect to be described within the cooperative context? Would you agree that the maximum observable progress is something like what Mark, Greg and Jaemin described-- being hard to throw, not having balance taken, etc? I mean it's not like someone is going to say I could never do ikkyo before but since I met Dan now I can ikkyo all day long.

I just mean because in aikido you are generally not stopped from succeeding. In aikido, you can even ikkyo with one finger only-- as long as that is what sensei showed, most of your attempts will work, with or without IP.

Anyway I agree that a more free environment is the real testing ground. Though at some point, you should be able to go to an aikido dojo and have your own internal feedback as to how "well" you are doing, even if it is not something to talk about here (I was able to stay connected through 90% of the movements today, or that kind of thing).
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