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Old 07-22-2011, 07:36 AM   #126
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
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Re: Moving with your center

thought i throw in my experience with the so-called "moving with your center". it was not at an aikido dojo. it was a place dear and near to my heart, the all-you-can-eat buffet for $10.99. they have various lines for different type of folks. as usual, i made a bee line toward the vegetarian lover looking for a good juicy piece of blood dripping steak (methink i have some Genghis Khan blood in my vein somewhere). a lady, with a plate of mash potato and other stuffs on it, stood in my way and glared at me.

she: "what do you think you doing?"
me: "getting some steak!!??"
she (eyes burn into my skull): "the LINE IS BACK THERE!!!"
me (now i know i am in trouble but still hang in there): "i thought the line is here!"
she (extended her plate and started to push toward me): "it's not! get back there! i have been waiting here for 10 minutes now and you can't just walk up and cut in line! what do you think you are!"

at this point in time, other ladies of the vegetarian lovers glared at me and started to push their plates out in front of them and pushed me back. it started to get ugly. the kind of ugly that the good and the bad want to get the heck out of victoria's secret and don't even care if there is secret or not. so as a martial arts student/journeyman, and someone who is versed in the art of war, i used the last and greatest strategy: run away!.... run away! so i shuffled a retreat and head toward the salad bar line. lucky for me, those green lovers were a bunch of push over, who preferred to get out of the way and only grimaced indignant which didn't bother me none.

so anyone who wanted to see moving with your center in action, try to cut into the vegetarian lover line at the local buffet.
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Old 07-22-2011, 07:54 AM   #127
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
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Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
oops... it won't let me edit it. Sorry I got confused with the names. I meant you Graham although I think Marc has been standing to the side fanning the flames. In any case, it is unbecoming for all three of you.
Robin:

The wonderful thing about the internet is that people can say anything. The awful thing about the internet is that people can say anything.

I always recommend that people try a class at what ever dojo they are considering training at. Preformed opinions regarding styles and teachers are simply that, much like the good and bad about the internet. Being up close and personal about one's own experiences provides a truth beyond words.

About myself, I was raised in an environment in which the most important aspect of a person's character was to be able to stand up for what you say and NEVER hide behind your words. I have no problem acknowledging when I am right or wrong. I have no problem calling people to task when what they say or do does not hold up to the stink test. I guess that makes me quite politically incorrect and I enjoy being in that space. As to people training in my school, I am sure some of them might even be reading this, I will let them chime in if they want. I think that most people would describe my dojo as being a very friendly, honest, irreverent place, where a true sense of a caring community is obvious and evident.

Heck, I am even in Japan a couple of times a year. If you want to meet me in person (first round is always on me), knock yourself out. You would then have an opportunity to post about a real-life encounter, rather than from the comfort of the internet zone.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
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Old 07-22-2011, 08:58 AM   #128
Lee Salzman
Join Date: Nov 2005
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Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
as usual, i made a bee line toward the vegetarian lover looking for a good juicy piece of blood dripping steak
.. Whoosh (the sound of that punchline going way over my head until the end).

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote:
she (eyes burn into my skull): "the LINE IS BACK THERE!!!"
me (now i know i am in trouble but still hang in there): "i thought the line is here!"
she (extended her plate and started to push toward me): "it's not! get back there!"
That... sounds too eerily like some training sessions I have undergone. Just sayin.
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Old 07-22-2011, 09:41 AM   #129
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
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Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
I must be weird.

These are the threads I learn something from. There's no shame in disagreeing, and none in disagreeing vehemently. This stuff matters, right? You care about it? So why should disagreements not be vehement?

So we now know that Graham's 8 directions have nothing to do with Dan's 6 directions, yes? Because they don't at a minimum even consider the up/down dimension. Doesn't that seem of some passing interest to you?

And the spirals that Graham talks about, the external spirals visible in sankyo, have nothing to do with the spirals formed through the body that Dan talks about? (Dan will correct me in his usual gentle fashion, if I misrepresent him. ) Isn't that an important thing to know?

Dan's discussion of what he sees in Graham's videos? (Sorry, Graham-san, you're being used as data here, nothing to do with you personally.) Pure gold. I quote:
  • shifting weight side to side, one side weighted
  • using the hips and shoulders in-line for power and not dantian
  • rocking on his feet from load

Good, great, let me start looking for that, not least in my own technique.

And this: "Were you to examine certain older arts (particularly with heavy weapons), you would see straightforward training that helped eliminate much of that" -- Which I'm now connecting with my sword training and thinking: hmmm.

Arigato goma-somethingorother to all the participants and please, continue.
Hi Hugh.
No offence taken. I'm glad people have a chance to see differences, even if there are some false representations in there.

A little bit of banter don't hurt, especially between those of different views.

Take that view of my explanation as external and rocking, hips and shoulder blah, shifting weight side to side. Ha, ha, what a joke.

This is meant to be an expert view? It shows me only where the observer is.

As I've said before, if you are limited by this internal/external view you will not be able to see for you're looking from the wrong viewpoint.

I am generally opposite in personality to those who contest what I say. I don't generally boast about things, boast how great this is and how wrong that is. In fact when it comes to promotion of what I do I'm at the other end of the scale.

This is all experimental to me, seeing what the Aikido scene is out there and the various views and scenes. I find it fascinating.

Each week my friends ask me what's been happening on happening on the Aikiweb. I give them an update and we have a laugh. Some tune in to have a look, only one has joined, but generally they too find it fascinating. Not in a bad way or a good way but more in an interesting way.

It's all good.

Regards.G.
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Old 07-22-2011, 10:01 AM   #130
jonreading
 
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Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
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Re: Moving with your center

The more I train in some of the softer stuff, the more I appreciate the vertical axis of movement. Specifically, the use of the vertical axis in uprooting my partner's balance.

Some of the center building exercises we have do not build our centers, I think. Hasso undo, happo giri, tori fune, zeppo undo, etc. We've seen 'em, but are they building our center? I remember one of Saotome Sensei's invite seminars for new black belts. He walks out onto to mat and asks, "Everyone know hasso undo?" he then proceeds to crank through the stance changes at great speed. Very few people on the mat could replicate the exercise at the pace Sensei established. Why? They had terrible balance, rocking, poor weight distribution, you name it. After watching a few minutes he simply said, "you do not know hasso undo." It stuck with me.

Moving from our center is critical to aikido. Creating a unified body structure that is is critical to aikido. My instructor taught us building exercises; he called them kiai exercises. They were not soft, they were not delicate. We did atemi. These exercises were mechanically precise kata that taught us to focus our energy as we moved. We used precise atemi to help understand and remember where we should focus our energy. We postured our bodies to receive weight loads as we shifted our partner's weight onto ours. It was his opinion that before we could worry about joining our energy with something, we needed to learn how to control it.

As for the original post, our bodies need a structure. "Relax" is a poor term to describe our posture. It is used in the spirit of not using muscle, but most of us picture a La z Boy chair and remote. I like "natural" because it implies enough structure to comfortably stand. Structure is the term I use to describe mechanics of the posture (hanmi) we assume. My instructor would say, stand like you could hold the weight of a heavy beach ball in your hands. Back straight, shoulders down, the natural curve of the arm directed toward the spine, arms extended to support top weight. Your posture should be vibrant.
The structure needs to create a space and maintain that space from intrusion. Limp structure will always yield to kiai; martially, if you yield your space your opponent moves inside embusen and know you have to contend with the fact they can affect your body. Just because we do not practice beating the c$%p out of each other does not mean we can ignore when the situation allows.

I liked my training of kiai before aiki. I think while a slower road it both gave me a solid foundation and the education to realize how and why things can get smaller and softer. It is also why I like to explore some of the other arts and the exercises they offer. I am impressed when I grab someone who is solid. I can feel they control their balance and my balance. And when I can trust those people to take my balance and respect my body I enjoy the ukemi all the more.

And for the record. The BS of ignoring martial tradition because we cannot make it work is ridiculous.There are right and wrong ways to do exercises, techniques, etc. There is aiki; it is not different colors or interpretations or whatever. Takahashi Sensei's post on aikido prompted me to think more about this. I cannot validate "aiki" that does not work on anyone, all of the time. I cannot validate one's aikido that only works in their dojo, on their students. Something is wrong when our technique does not work on anyone. Something is wrong when we cannot blend with anyone. Something is wrong when our exercises are not teaching us something. Occluding our failings as something other than what they are directly goes against the academic pursuit of studying aiki. Somewhere I can faintly hear Pee Wee Herman saying, "I meant to do that..."
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Old 07-22-2011, 10:13 AM   #131
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
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Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
If it were just a matter of adding jumping-jacks to happo-undo, would it be an important point of discussion at all? One is talking about directions of stabilization or force generation that come in pairs - i.e. for some parts to extend up in space, others must extend down against something, or for some parts to sink down with the aid of gravity, other parts must rise up. The other is talking about just a movement exercise. They're just not on the same page, entirely different chapters of the book.
Lee.
Obviously you think that for you are used to that particular view.
When you then assume what I say equals x then you are way off the mark.

Yes, the eight direction exercises are linear directions, from centre may I add, and are done for the reasons given. How does that equal no up or down dynamic?

To me for beginners and maybe others further along the line that may be true but obvious because they are learning. But the key is in the word centre.

If you are truly aware of centre then you will truly aware of a whole sphere, space, three dimentional. When this is normal to you then such comments wouldn't be made would they?

Centre, the reality of which leads to many understandings. I could write a whole chapter on that one thing.

Take the eight direction sword cut exercise. What happens when you cut in a straight line? The sword is cutting down in a straight line you may say. Well now look at the tip of the sword. It is cutting in a circle. It's almost 'drawing' a circle. Space.

Now do that exercise thousands of times and learn many things. Eventually you will understand what centre feels like for you will feel like you are just a centre having fun cutting through the universe. All else disappears. Thoughts of heavyness of sword or body mechanics or shoulders or feet or correct posture by that time have all been overcome and now it's just what it is, eight direction sword cut. Now just sit back and watch others debate it and say this and that about it and smile.

Regards.G.
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Old 07-22-2011, 10:32 AM   #132
robin_jet_alt
Join Date: Jun 2011
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Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Robin:

Heck, I am even in Japan a couple of times a year. If you want to meet me in person (first round is always on me), knock yourself out. You would then have an opportunity to post about a real-life encounter, rather than from the comfort of the internet zone.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
Hi Marc. Let me know when you are here. Lets get some ramen or something.
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Old 07-22-2011, 10:44 AM   #133
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Re: Moving with your center

All I see you doing Graham is beng contrary about anything that is curiously a known deeper understanding. I haven't seen it go to any useful purpose. or you offering anything of value in return.
An example is your obvious lack of retaining center in movement and then defending it by saying we, as experienced observers, don't see the benefit of your falling apart, or denying that you do.

As Jon pointed out in Saotome's example, no one could replicate Saotome's moving at speed while retaining central balance. This is done (in part) by maintaining contradictory forces in a way you have not expressed an understanding of, nor display in your movement Six directions as expressed by your founder, has nothing to do with what you are talking about. We have watched you fall apart in slow movement. It is what it is. Just say you're happy with what you. Trying to state there is a good reason for it, or it didn't happen is a bit ridiculous.

You, can fantasize, assume, guess, try to re create or whatever you want to try to do to that age old model. A model that is already within what Tohei was teaching, it just isn't about cutting in different directions! I would suggest you embrace it as it will aid you in fixing your aikido.

I've seen it before, It's not knew to me. I've talked with Shihan who missed what their Japanese teacher had to say and were quite livid with me for pointing it out...furious even. Then we met and touched hands. Now they understand and are quite delighted to be keying in and understanding where and how the terminology meets the movement. All of this is bigger, grander, than a few people playing around experimenting, Graham.
Saotome, Ikeda, and others under them and some under, Chiba, Yamada, Imaizumi, and Suwata, realize this. I don't see them adopting the lessor path but are instead trying to get people to join the world of deeper martial understanding.

In the real world everyone doesn't get an "A" and people are better at things than others. It's how we grow, there's no shame in it. being too timid to compete or to be exposed leads to the lowest common denominator not the best we can be. This idea you have of all views being equal didn't work out for those trying to copy Saotome did it? Nor will it work for you when you meet someone who trains like many of us are training. You will fail to be able to do anything to them and they will have you on contact. All your theories and ideas will go out the window on that day.
Why? For retaining central equilibrium and absorbing energy and casting it aside or cutting through, for blending with an opponent....this way is superior. That's why your founder, as did his teacher before him as did Asians for many generations before them, all choose to train this way too.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-22-2011 at 10:59 AM.
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Old 07-22-2011, 11:00 AM   #134
Lee Salzman
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 405
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Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Lee.
Obviously you think that for you are used to that particular view.
When you then assume what I say equals x then you are way off the mark.

Yes, the eight direction exercises are linear directions, from centre may I add, and are done for the reasons given. How does that equal no up or down dynamic?

To me for beginners and maybe others further along the line that may be true but obvious because they are learning. But the key is in the word centre.

If you are truly aware of centre then you will truly aware of a whole sphere, space, three dimentional. When this is normal to you then such comments wouldn't be made would they?

Centre, the reality of which leads to many understandings. I could write a whole chapter on that one thing.

Take the eight direction sword cut exercise. What happens when you cut in a straight line? The sword is cutting down in a straight line you may say. Well now look at the tip of the sword. It is cutting in a circle. It's almost 'drawing' a circle. Space.

Now do that exercise thousands of times and learn many things. Eventually you will understand what centre feels like for you will feel like you are just a centre having fun cutting through the universe. All else disappears. Thoughts of heavyness of sword or body mechanics or shoulders or feet or correct posture by that time have all been overcome and now it's just what it is, eight direction sword cut. Now just sit back and watch others debate it and say this and that about it and smile.

Regards.G.
In a way, I'm on your side in the regards of "six" vs. "eight" more than you know, man. I was just trying to spell out clearly what was not being said, what was different about what you guys were talking about, since no one seemed to be saying it. Didn't mean that there is no up-down element to movement exercises, just that the "six" are specifically laying out that that is present and how to bring about its presence, whereas the "eight" are an application or playground in which to test them. In that play you can better understand the nature of the "six", but the wider the play the wider the understanding because you look at the same problem through more and more lenses until one day hopefully you can approach universal understanding of the problem, rather than just being the proverbial blind man feeling up only the elephant's trunk. That is why "eight" feels limiting to me. That is why "six" feels limiting to me. They are mental ruts. I can do one thing a thousand times, but my understanding will be very specialized to that one thing, or I can do that thing a thousand different ways one time to arrive at an understanding that unifies them all.

But kinda riffing on what you are pointing out about the sword, the shapes our bodies are describing in space does not really articulate where we are sending our power at any given time. So just because all your body is not moving up (or postured up) does not mean power can't be going up, and just because your body is moving up (or postured up) that doesn't mean your power is necessarily going up. Your body may describe an arc, but the power may be straight. Your body may describe a straight line, but your power may be going in an arc. So what if the sword is a flexible spear, and you are it - one unified thing? How do you wield yourself?

Last edited by Lee Salzman : 07-22-2011 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 07-22-2011, 11:34 AM   #135
Gerardo Torres
Location: SF Bay Area
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Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Hi Gerardo, thanks for presenting more complexity into an already complex point IMO, the six directions are simply base points of reference for extension of energy from the center - in reality, there are multiple six directional opposing forces in the X,Y,Z dimensions as we move. Now that should be clear as mud to all

Greg
Hi Greg,

Us nerds can't help throwing some spherical coordinates whenever we can . I agree, these are just reference models. I just wanted to understand the basic models - the technical language - so I know what's being discussed next time I see them mentioned (6-directions, 8-directions, etc.). As far as moving while keeping harmonies... for me it's hard enough to keep them while static!
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Old 07-22-2011, 12:11 PM   #136
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
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Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
As Jon pointed out in Saotome's example, no one could replicate Saotome's moving at speed while retaining central balance. This is done (in part) by maintaining contradictory forces in a way you have not expressed an understanding of, nor display in your movement
Is this what Saotome himself says he is doing? If not, are you *sure* this is what Saotome is doing?

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-22-2011, 12:28 PM   #137
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
All I see you doing Graham is beng contrary about anything that is curiously a known deeper understanding. I haven't seen it go to any useful purpose. or you offering anything of value in return.
An example is your obvious lack of retaining center in movement and then defending it by saying we, as experienced observers, don't see the benefit of your falling apart, or denying that you do.

As Jon pointed out in Saotome's example, no one could replicate Saotome's moving at speed while retaining central balance. This is done (in part) by maintaining contradictory forces in a way you have not expressed an understanding of, nor display in your movement Six directions as expressed by your founder, has nothing to do with what you are talking about. We have watched you fall apart in slow movement. It is what it is. Just say you're happy with what you. Trying to state there is a good reason for it, or it didn't happen is a bit ridiculous.

You, can fantasize, assume, guess, try to re create or whatever you want to try to do to that age old model. A model that is already within what Tohei was teaching, it just isn't about cutting in different directions! I would suggest you embrace it as it will aid you in fixing your aikido.

I've seen it before, It's not knew to me. I've talked with Shihan who missed what their Japanese teacher had to say and were quite livid with me for pointing it out...furious even. Then we met and touched hands. Now they understand and are quite delighted to be keying in and understanding where and how the terminology meets the movement. All of this is bigger, grander, than a few people playing around experimenting, Graham.
Saotome, Ikeda, and others under them and some under, Chiba, Yamada, Imaizumi, and Suwata, realize this. I don't see them adopting the lessor path but are instead trying to get people to join the world of deeper martial understanding.

In the real world everyone doesn't get an "A" and people are better at things than others. It's how we grow, there's no shame in it. being too timid to compete or to be exposed leads to the lowest common denominator not the best we can be. This idea you have of all views being equal didn't work out for those trying to copy Saotome did it? Nor will it work for you when you meet someone who trains like many of us are training. You will fail to be able to do anything to them and they will have you on contact. All your theories and ideas will go out the window on that day.
Why? For retaining central equilibrium and absorbing energy and casting it aside or cutting through, for blending with an opponent....this way is superior. That's why your founder, as did his teacher before him as did Asians for many generations before them, all choose to train this way too.

Dan
Dan. That's your 'expert' opinion? On me?

You're welcome to it.

I do contribute on many issues thank you.

You've seen many things before.

I've seen many things before. So what?

I don't name drop, I don't need to. Every person who I helped improve their Aikido or indeed other martial art had a teacher. Every teacher had a teacher. So what. It means nothing to me.

I'm not into this is better than that Dan.

I'm not into proving superiority either.

No doubt you see that as a failing. I see it as a way.

Maybe you feel you have something to offer me from which I would benefit. Good for you. You must think I'm dumb if you feel you have to insist all the time. Good for you.

You forget one thing. I choose as and when I need something.

All this everyone gets an A business? I don't have a clue what you're on about, maybe I missed that discussion.

Your obviously certain about your way. Good for you.

For me I know my path. I'm good at it too. I've never failed to improve someone no matter how many gold stars they have. So what? Does that make me superior or right or holder of the secrets? No. It means nothing to me. It's just my path and that's all.

As I said, you enjoy your world and have fun.

Regards.G.
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Old 07-22-2011, 12:30 PM   #138
gregstec
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
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Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Gerardo Torres wrote: View Post
Hi Greg,

Us nerds can't help throwing some spherical coordinates whenever we can . I agree, these are just reference models. I just wanted to understand the basic models - the technical language - so I know what's being discussed next time I see them mentioned (6-directions, 8-directions, etc.). As far as moving while keeping harmonies... for me it's hard enough to keep them while static!
Hi Gerardo,

I had an idea where you were coming from, just wanted to sling some stuff out there for the fun of it

I know what you mean about keeping the harmonies, but that is why we train

Greg
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Old 07-22-2011, 01:26 PM   #139
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
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England
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Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
In a way, I'm on your side in the regards of "six" vs. "eight" more than you know, man. I was just trying to spell out clearly what was not being said, what was different about what you guys were talking about, since no one seemed to be saying it. Didn't mean that there is no up-down element to movement exercises, just that the "six" are specifically laying out that that is present and how to bring about its presence, whereas the "eight" are an application or playground in which to test them. In that play you can better understand the nature of the "six", but the wider the play the wider the understanding because you look at the same problem through more and more lenses until one day hopefully you can approach universal understanding of the problem, rather than just being the proverbial blind man feeling up only the elephant's trunk. That is why "eight" feels limiting to me. That is why "six" feels limiting to me. They are mental ruts. I can do one thing a thousand times, but my understanding will be very specialized to that one thing, or I can do that thing a thousand different ways one time to arrive at an understanding that unifies them all.

But kinda riffing on what you are pointing out about the sword, the shapes our bodies are describing in space does not really articulate where we are sending our power at any given time. So just because all your body is not moving up (or postured up) does not mean power can't be going up, and just because your body is moving up (or postured up) that doesn't mean your power is necessarily going up. Your body may describe an arc, but the power may be straight. Your body may describe a straight line, but your power may be going in an arc. So what if the sword is a flexible spear, and you are it - one unified thing? How do you wield yourself?
Wow Lee. I like the post. Even when I came to this forum I found it strange that so many 'experts' attacked and told me what I need etc. yet no one actually asked much at all.

To do with the cutting and understanding from a universal point of view. When I or some of my compatriots see explanations all related to body, including pathways in the body, we smile and recognise the view as being very 'physical'

When I give instruction I know what I say will be translated very 'physically' for that is the frame of reference people have. Therein lies the challenge of transmitting certain principles of Aikido.

As you say the motions of the 'body' going up and down. I'm not actually talking about the body only. When I mention space I'm not only talking about physical space. I'm talking physical space, spiritual space and universal space, awareness of in the present moment.

So when you say the shapes our bodies are describing in space does not show where we are sending our power I wouldn't agree.

From how I view it's almost opposiite to what your saying there. Why? Because the shapes of the body are the result of what you are doing space and energy wise and thus knowing the ways of space and energy you can see what's happening even by just looking at the body movement or shape.

Add to this you can feel way before any touching happens.

Too much attention only on the body shape equalling where the power is going will eventually lead to confusion for you will find the body shape seemed to be saying one thing yet the power was going a different way. Hence the need to understand the principles rather than the physical only.

Bringing a flexible spear into the equasion is interesting too.

Flexible. Now we enter into an area I call 'tricks' as far as my Aikido goes. We enter into the field of energy waves. You could develop a whole way of the spear or jo based on this. Thus you would have wavelengths and vibrations etc. No doubt you would even have to develop a flexible frame to suit.

By tricks I don't mean something that isn't effective or even useful but it's too limited for me.

To go all shaolin on you I would say a snake uses this as it's one major weapon.

Regards.G.
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Old 07-22-2011, 02:43 PM   #140
Brad Gould
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin-Budo Kai/Bedford Hills, NY
Location: NY
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Re: Moving with your center

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Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
However, I wouldn't want to train with either of you, if you are going to get into this sort of exchange on the internet.
While we've certainly drifted off topic, I saw this and felt that I should comment.

I am one of Marc Abrams Sensei's students, and I feel very fortunate to train with him. Not only is Marc Sensei both a caring teacher and individual, he can be counted on by his students in or out of the dojo. He strives to improve himself and his students, and has brought very tallented martial artists and teachers to the dojo. Also, he has no problem talking about his own areas for improvement. Thanks to Marc, this dojo is a place where ideas of aiki, teaching, or other concepts can be challenged and evaluated honestly with an open mind, and learned.

I'm glad to see you may be enjoying some ramen together.
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Old 07-23-2011, 07:31 AM   #141
Lee Salzman
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Re: Moving with your center

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Wow Lee. I like the post. Even when I came to this forum I found it strange that so many 'experts' attacked and told me what I need etc. yet no one actually asked much at all.

To do with the cutting and understanding from a universal point of view. When I or some of my compatriots see explanations all related to body, including pathways in the body, we smile and recognise the view as being very 'physical'

When I give instruction I know what I say will be translated very 'physically' for that is the frame of reference people have. Therein lies the challenge of transmitting certain principles of Aikido.

As you say the motions of the 'body' going up and down. I'm not actually talking about the body only. When I mention space I'm not only talking about physical space. I'm talking physical space, spiritual space and universal space, awareness of in the present moment.

So when you say the shapes our bodies are describing in space does not show where we are sending our power I wouldn't agree.

From how I view it's almost opposiite to what your saying there. Why? Because the shapes of the body are the result of what you are doing space and energy wise and thus knowing the ways of space and energy you can see what's happening even by just looking at the body movement or shape.

Add to this you can feel way before any touching happens.

Too much attention only on the body shape equalling where the power is going will eventually lead to confusion for you will find the body shape seemed to be saying one thing yet the power was going a different way. Hence the need to understand the principles rather than the physical only.

Bringing a flexible spear into the equasion is interesting too.

Flexible. Now we enter into an area I call 'tricks' as far as my Aikido goes. We enter into the field of energy waves. You could develop a whole way of the spear or jo based on this. Thus you would have wavelengths and vibrations etc. No doubt you would even have to develop a flexible frame to suit.

By tricks I don't mean something that isn't effective or even useful but it's too limited for me.

To go all shaolin on you I would say a snake uses this as it's one major weapon.

Regards.G.
Snakes? You want snakes? I got your snakes here.

Perhaps not for the easily startled...
Snake 1
Snake 2
Snake 3
Snake 4

The snake doesn't seem to need to worry about things like energy waves or vibrations but gets along just fine. But when you go back and watch these things in the view of quaint-sounding aphorisms like "when one part moves, all parts move", "form round, force straight", etc., the snake seems to get it without really having to waste any mental effort expounding on any of these things. The snake is not using its body like a whip or a bludgeon, not just on the way back out, but also on the way back in. This is probably closer to the reality of what our spines are, but at least throughout my aikido career, I was never shown to regard my spine and how it connects into the limbs as anything other than, well, a big giant stick.

Last edited by Lee Salzman : 07-23-2011 at 07:36 AM.
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Old 07-23-2011, 08:02 AM   #142
graham christian
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Re: Moving with your center

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Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
Snakes? You want snakes? I got your snakes here.

Perhaps not for the easily startled...
Snake 1
Snake 2
Snake 3
Snake 4

The snake doesn't seem to need to worry about things like energy waves or vibrations but gets along just fine. But when you go back and watch these things in the view of quaint-sounding aphorisms like "when one part moves, all parts move", "form round, force straight", etc., the snake seems to get it without really having to waste any mental effort expounding on any of these things. The snake is not using its body like a whip or a bludgeon, not just on the way back out, but also on the way back in. This is probably closer to the reality of what our spines are, but at least throughout my aikido career, I was never shown to regard my spine and how it connects into the limbs as anything other than, well, a big giant stick.
Ha, ha. Nicessssssssss.

When you see them move along the ground you'll see a wave going through the body.The snake is all rhythm and mesmerism. Anyway, looks like you like snakes so you probably like this one.

http://youtu.be/vdg9gkmWsEA

You ever watched lions and tigers? Lions go straight in, tigers especially against lions) tend to atemi and irimi.

Dogs, especially those little bullit headed ones tend to grab and shake but use their koshi (back of hips) with gravity to pull with power.

Then the eagles claw, mmm, like taking the wrist from a strike whilst doing tai-sabaki.

Ha, ha, we can call this the secrets of shaolin Aikido.

Regards.G.
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Old 07-23-2011, 08:23 AM   #143
DH
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Re: Moving with your center

Hmmm...you will notice how balanced they are in motion as well. What kind of animal moves like this?
Just say'n
Dan
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Old 07-23-2011, 08:37 AM   #144
graham christian
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Re: Moving with your center

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hmmm...you will notice how balanced they are in motion as well. What kind of animal moves like this?
Just say'n
Dan
Strange view on balance.
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Old 07-23-2011, 09:28 AM   #145
gregstec
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Re: Moving with your center

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Strange view on balance.
So, Graham, buddy, what is your view on balance?

Thanks

Greg
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Old 07-23-2011, 09:44 AM   #146
ewolput
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Re: Moving with your center

hi all,
is this a joke or serious talking?
Anyway find here my definition of "moving with the centre"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxR-0DDhzik
It is the art of Gigolo Kano
I hope you enjoy it and I hope also you will practise this in your place.

Eddy
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Old 07-23-2011, 10:11 AM   #147
graham christian
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Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
So, Graham, buddy, what is your view on balance?

Thanks

Greg
Hi Greg.
Basically the state of equilibrium my man. I think you'll find most definitions have something to do with 'equal' in them. In fact the root of the word is to do with 'two' (in fact two plates as in a set of scales)

So enough of that.

Being at one with Aikido wise is balance. Harmonizing with is also balance. Keeping centre whilst doing a breakfall is also balance. A flowing movement is also balance.

Thus it also relates to stability. A stable centre. A still mind. Naturally flowing Ki. Relaxed body. Loving space. Neutral centre line. Etc.

Or you could just concentrate on the physical and miss the multidimentional beauty of Aikido.

Need I say more?

Regards.G.
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Old 07-23-2011, 12:03 PM   #148
Lee Salzman
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Re: Moving with your center

Quote:
Eddy Wolput wrote: View Post
hi all,
is this a joke or serious talking?
Anyway find here my definition of "moving with the centre"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxR-0DDhzik
It is the art of Gigolo Kano
I hope you enjoy it and I hope also you will practise this in your place.

Eddy
I can't tell if this is quite meant to be serious either.

Can anyone spot the difference between what the brave "Gigolo" is doing here and the snake, where his power is actually going, and how it is going differently, in these select moments?

Gigolo @ 55s
Gigolo @ 105s
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Old 07-25-2011, 08:06 AM   #149
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Moving with your center

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
When I was at a seminar w/ Ikeda Sensei a few months ago, for the first time, and after doing some solo IS exercises for a while, I found that it is explicitly what he is teaching, ...
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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
I would second what Janet said. He is basically doing the same things, though IMO you'd have some difficulty figuring out what he's asking you to do without some previous IS/IP experience.
Thank you both! I actually have been at Ikeda senseis seminar and it was great!

He chose me several times as his uke in front of the class. So I could exactly feel what he was talking about and what he wanted to demonstrate.

Most things he wanted us to do, I could do, because what he teaches is very near to our practice!!! It was familiar to what I learned from Endo sensei. Even if he uses different words and sometimes different "images".
But you can "translate" those languages quite easy. (At least I think so.)

During the break I asked sensei for some basic exercises which can help to better understand what he teaches and learn his way, his "construction" of what he wanted us to do.
Regarding my practice with Endo sensei and also my own teaching I think such basic exercises, solo or with partner (not waza but just learning to organize ones body / and mind) are the key to a better understanding of what a certain teacher does and how he understands things like aiki, connection, doing kuzushi ...
So Ikeda sensei showed me some things I can practice for myself.

Thank you again for your advice!
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Old 07-25-2011, 12:11 PM   #150
JW
 
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Re: Moving with your center

Hi Carsten, it is really cool to hear how similar your experience with the teachings of Endo and Ikeda Senseis is a match. From videos, always thought this should be true, with additional matches with Tamura and Sunadomari senseis' teachings.
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