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  #51  
Old 07-14-2011, 02:46 PM
Francis Takahashi
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The Word "Aikido"

The word "Aikido" is simply a word. Like the word "Love", or "Hate" or even "Peace" are each but mere words. Like when looking at our atmosphere, we may see "blue" skies, or fiery "red" sunsets, or even the "grey" cloak of sunlight intercepted darkness. Does our description of what we see...

Last edited by akiy : 07-14-2011 at 02:45 PM.
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Old 07-20-2011, 09:16 AM   #50
sakumeikan
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Re: The Word "Aikido"

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Joe
Once again, Me, me, me, You are creating scenarios in your own head, and now stating I said things I never said, speaking for me and telling me how I feel (incorrectly I might add) and then drawing conclusions of your own making without recognizing what you have actually said. In the process of which you ignored the things I actually did say and the points I made. And ended up...talking about me ...again...instead of the topic!
What kind of an attempt is that to have a meaningful discussion? It isn't. All it does is erroneously place the burden on me as the nonresponsive participant, when I was the one discussing the topic in the first place!
to
Dan
Dear Mr Harden,
I did indeed make an error in my last blog.May I state categorically I have never implied or called you a liar.
Please accept my sincere apology in this matter.
As far as a meaningful discussion is concerned I welcome this.
Rather than personalise things I would much rather stick to the subject matter.I only responded to you in the manner that I did because I felt you were a tad disrespectful.It may well be that you are simply a plain speaking gent telling people as it is.It may well be I am somewhat sensitive.
So if we dispense with the custard pie throwing [I would welcome that]maybe indeed we could get down to brass tacks and
discuss the subject ie Aikido.
Again I apologise for any earlier blog.
Cheers, Joe
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Old 07-20-2011, 10:40 AM   #51
jonreading
 
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Re: The Word "Aikido"

Inherently, I am disturbed by our inability to define aikido, even categorically, if not specifically. To quote Einstein “If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough”. We cannot even define that which we are trying to explain... how deep does that put us in the hole? If I read a karate book, or a kenjitsu book, or a judo book I can and have found very good descriptions of "ki" and aiki". These descriptions are not from aikido people, but from people outside aikido. I do not know why, but aikido people are no longer the resource for learning more about aiki. You'd think the art that practices the way of aiki should be some kind of authority on aiki.

I sound like a broken record...

I think somewhere along the line O'Sensei made a decision to make aikido more academic and less combatively practical. I do not think he made a decision to make his students more academic and less combatively practical. I think to the outer world, aikido is just a word that describes a modern budo - "those people practice the way of aiki". I think the critique in that statement is that many aikido people are not studying aiki. Which is fine, we all gotta start someplace; but after years of training? The implied argument here is "you practice the academic study of aiki, yet you cannot demonstrate or explain it?"

I think we occlude this critique by presenting an over-complicated counter-argument without responding to the initial argument. "It is not that simple. You cannot understand how complex aikido is, therefore you cannot understand what I do." This is a great answer when we're called to the carpet, right? Heaven forbid we show the lay-person what is aikido, their poor brain mind explode.

Shut up and train is a good motto here because most of us do not know what we are doing well enough to explain it to another. And there is nothing wrong with that. Budo is a personal journey, you have a right not to let the guy behind you sneak a peek at your answers. You also have a right to share your answers. Here's the worst part, you have a responsibility for the impact those answers have on those with whom you share.

I think Takahashi Sensei is spot on. O'Sensei's aikido was intended to give its practitioners a liberal perspective of aiki. But I think it was done with the intention those practicing would have a pre-existing working knowledge of ki and kiai and therefore not need the structure of those exercises.
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Old 07-20-2011, 11:25 AM   #52
DH
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Re: The Word "Aikido"

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
....I think Takahashi Sensei is spot on. O'Sensei's aikido was intended to give its practitioners a liberal perspective of aiki. But I think it was done with the intention those practicing would have a pre-existing working knowledge of ki and kiai and therefore not need the structure of those exercises.
Hello Jon
By and Large I am in agreement with a few points.
As I said earlier
I think he wanted us to discover our path with an understanding of the Way of Aiki...you know...the stuff he was always talking about.
I don't think he intended his name to be put on our desires to make our own stuff up as we go along and imagine we understand the way that he was talking about. If you don't understand aiki, then no matter what you think you're doing, you are not doing his aiki-do or even your own aiki-do.


I think this notion that the Asians had a working knowledge of ki and kiai doesn't fly. It was a skill taught just like anything else and not a skill that everyone knew. Its the reason guys who got it were well known...they stood out.

For those who keep thinking he was a benevolent spiritual figure delighted by each persons invention of their own aiki, they should be called to explain a couple of things:
Why he clothed his vision in a fighting art
Why he showed up at his own dojo now operated by his son and shouted "This is not my aikido."
What do you think he would say about yours?

People can continue to imagine that they're doing his aiki all they like. Fantasies like that will last as long as they avoid those who do have it or are just even trying to get it. I can only imagine Ueshiba stepping into most modern dojos and seeing the disaster that has been pawned off as aiki and what he would say.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 07-20-2011, 11:31 AM   #53
DH
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Re: The Word "Aikido"

To be clear
For those who keep thinking he was a benevolent spiritual figure accepting and gleefully delighted by each persons invention of their own aiki,
Why did he show up at his own dojo now operated by his son and shout "This is not my aikido." and proceed to lecture them on...aiki?
Why?
Were your argument to be sound he would have been thrilled at the corruption...er...development... of his art, right?
Not even close fella's.

What do you think he would say about yours?
Dan
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Old 07-20-2011, 11:46 AM   #54
chillzATL
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Re: The Word "Aikido"

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post

What do you think he would say about yours?
Dan
I think he would be as pleased as he was the day he signed off on any of the books or videos Tohei produced in his name or the day he made him shihan bucho.

With that said, I do believe that aiki is a specific thing and not open for interpretation.
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Old 07-20-2011, 12:07 PM   #55
gregstec
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Re: The Word "Aikido"

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Graham,
A very respectful answer to a blog which to my mind was almost if not desultory to you.Mr Harden I feel may well have something to offer to the Aikido community.Modesty , good manners and respect for others would not be on his skills list cv.
Cheers, Joe.
Dear Mr Curran:

I do not wish to distract from Francis' thread, however, I feel compelled to comment on your 'manners and respect to others' statement based on what I have seen from your online behavior. Most people find that talking in the third person about someone when they can hear or read what you are saying about them to another person is extremely disrespectful and in bad taste. You have done that to me when you questioned my lineage and experience concerning Tohei. I answered your questions and you never responded with a thank you or any other type of acknowledgment other than responding directly to another person's comment on my response where you talked about me in the third person. I responded to that with a direct post to you asking if you had any other questions, you never responded or acknowledged that post either - I found all of that disrespectful and an exhibit of bad manners. Now you are doing the same type of third person stuff with Dan's posts.

In some circles, people behave that way to intentionally attack people and show disrespect. If that is not your intention, OK - but now you know how others may be viewing the way you post.

I apologize for stepping off topic, but I felt the issue needed addressed and this was the latest occurrence that provided an opening.

Thank You

Greg Steckel
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Old 07-20-2011, 12:10 PM   #56
gregstec
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Re: The Word "Aikido"

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
With that said, I do believe that aiki is a specific thing and not open for interpretation.
I am with you on that - however the 'do' part can have all the personal interpretation it wants

Greg
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Old 07-20-2011, 12:37 PM   #57
dps
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Re: The Word "Aikido"

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Why did he show up at his own dojo now operated by his son and shout "This is not my aikido."
Dan
Maybe they were goofing off, you know,

"the old man ain't here, lets party".

dps
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Old 07-20-2011, 12:41 PM   #58
Lee Salzman
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Re: The Word "Aikido"

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
I am with you on that - however the 'do' part can have all the personal interpretation it wants

Greg
So what if, in the spirit of Engrish, you called it "aikiology", the science of aiki, rather than the art of aiki? If a geologist can avoid making an art out of studying rocks, could an aikiologist?
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Old 07-20-2011, 12:47 PM   #59
DH
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Re: The Word "Aikido"

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
So what if, in the spirit of Engrish, you called it "aikiology", the science of aiki, rather than the art of aiki? If a geologist can avoid making an art out of studying rocks, could an aikiologist?
Not that it matters
Aiki-jutsu (art) as in; Aiki jujutsu or Kenjutsu, Bujutsu
Aiki-do (way) as in; Aikido, kendo, budo
Aiki-ology (science) as in; are you bored on a Wednesday.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 07-20-2011, 12:48 PM   #60
gregstec
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Re: The Word "Aikido"

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
So what if, in the spirit of Engrish, you called it "aikiology", the science of aiki, rather than the art of aiki? If a geologist can avoid making an art out of studying rocks, could an aikiologist?
Geez, Lee, why go and take an already complicated and diversely viewed issue and add another diverse dimension to it

Greg
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Old 07-20-2011, 12:57 PM   #61
DH
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Re: The Word "Aikido"

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Geez, Lee, why go and take an already complicated and diversely viewed issue and add another diverse dimension to it
Greg
It is rather conclusive; go put your hands on someone.
Something certain people will avoid like the plague as they will be exposed. It's easier to sound off about your individual creation of a new meaning and attract like minded individualists from behind a keyboard, rather than meet someone who will cancel everything you do and take your center everytime you move...with actual aiki, a thing that was established long before their fantasies about ownership of aiki took hold.
I guess if you can't do something, it's safer to reinvent a meaning to fit what you can do. Then no one can challenge or test you and everyone is special and gets an '"A"
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-20-2011 at 01:10 PM.
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Old 07-20-2011, 01:17 PM   #62
graham christian
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Re: The Word "Aikido"

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
To be clear
For those who keep thinking he was a benevolent spiritual figure accepting and gleefully delighted by each persons invention of their own aiki,
Why did he show up at his own dojo now operated by his son and shout "This is not my aikido." and proceed to lecture them on...aiki?
Why?
Were your argument to be sound he would have been thrilled at the corruption...er...development... of his art, right?
Not even close fella's.

What do you think he would say about yours?
Dan
I'll be clear. I believe he was a benevolent spiritual figure but that does not make him someone who gleefully delights in people doing other than instructed. So no connection there.

I understand why he was frustrated and said 'that's not my Aikido' so no problem there either.

Any teacher of their own art or style would say the same if they saw students 'reverting' to something and not following the principles taught.

It's so patently obvious in fact I don't see what all the significance is. He had a way that people weren't used to and thus they kept reverting back to what they knew, probably jutsu or whatever depending on their background.

His Aikido was different to what went before and teaching that difference was the hard part.

Regards.G.
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Old 07-20-2011, 01:19 PM   #63
gregstec
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Re: The Word "Aikido"

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Then no one can challenge or test you and everyone is special and gets an '"A"
Cheers
Dan
My name and 'A's together were a rare sight on any document during high school - I was too busy doing my own thing to pay attention to all those rules and other school stuff However, during my college time, they were routine - and they were earned

Greg
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Old 07-20-2011, 01:20 PM   #64
DH
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Re: The Word "Aikido"

I wonder why Takeda was special and people flocked to him.
I wonder why Ueshiba was special and people flocked to him.
How is it their "aiki" was not seen as equal among a culture of highly trained and experienced men. Why was it different from every one elses special and equal aiki?

Today were their skills publicly exposed to an educated audience, how many would be even remotely interested in the "aiki" of some of these new people?
Just say'n
Dan
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Old 07-20-2011, 01:34 PM   #65
graham christian
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Re: The Word "Aikido"

Why did people get attracted to this new Aikido? Well I think most people now only have to remember what attracted them.

Why were thousands if not millions attracted to Bruce Lee and his way? The answer lies in those people once again.

So the answer to that question is once again pretty obvious, it's down to how it was promoted, the concept promoted. Very simple really.

Add to this the words of O'Sensei that were used in those promotions and descriptions and there you have it......Aikido.

After that we have opinion.

Regards.G.
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Old 07-20-2011, 01:50 PM   #66
jonreading
 
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Re: The Word "Aikido"

Dan, I appreciate the response. Concerning the point you bring up about early aikido students [not] having a pre-existing working knowledge of aiki... I do not know if they had a pre-existing working knowledge of aiki, but many of the early students had previous training in other arts. I advocate this preliminary exposure training may have prepared them to better receive instruction from O'Sensei without a remedial class in ki101. Certainly among those early students where several who excelled in aikido. I say this because I believe that these ki building exercises are a missing component of mainstream aikido curriculum that is now almost required because fewer people enter aikido after significant training in a another art. It makes sense that we need to control ourselves before we start trying to control someone else. I am glad to see some exercises starting to come back into the circles I travel and I want to express my thanks to those who are bringing them back.
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Old 07-20-2011, 02:08 PM   #67
Lee Salzman
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Re: The Word "Aikido"

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Why did people get attracted to this new Aikido? Well I think most people now only have to remember what attracted them.

Why were thousands if not millions attracted to Bruce Lee and his way? The answer lies in those people once again.

So the answer to that question is once again pretty obvious, it's down to how it was promoted, the concept promoted. Very simple really.

Add to this the words of O'Sensei that were used in those promotions and descriptions and there you have it......Aikido.

After that we have opinion.

Regards.G.
Would it be that presumptuous of me to assume that a majority of what attracts people to aikido, what initially defined it for us, was O'Sensei? Was he the promoter, or was he really the promotion? If we promote on his back our own interpretations, without first being able to match or exceed his own, what does that make us?
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Old 07-20-2011, 02:14 PM   #68
gregstec
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Re: The Word "Aikido"

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
Would it be that presumptuous of me to assume that a majority of what attracts people to aikido, what initially defined it for us, was O'Sensei? Was he the promoter, or was he really the promotion? If we promote on his back our own interpretations, without first being able to match or exceed his own, what does that make us?
IMO, he was his son's and Tohei's promotion with both skewing facts to support their own agendas.

Greg
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Old 07-20-2011, 02:51 PM   #69
DH
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Re: The Word "Aikido"

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Dan, I appreciate the response. Concerning the point you bring up about early aikido students [not] having a pre-existing working knowledge of aiki... I do not know if they had a pre-existing working knowledge of aiki, but many of the early students had previous training in other arts. I advocate this preliminary exposure training may have prepared them to better receive instruction from O'Sensei without a remedial class in ki101. Certainly among those early students where several who excelled in aikido. I say this because I believe that these ki building exercises are a missing component of mainstream aikido curriculum that is now almost required because fewer people enter aikido after significant training in a another art. It makes sense that we need to control ourselves before we start trying to control someone else. I am glad to see some exercises starting to come back into the circles I travel and I want to express my thanks to those who are bringing them back.
Hi Jon
I think I have a handle on what you are trying to say; that the ki model was in place throughout Asia and a lot of guys got it from various budo. I know this is the current buzz in certain circles. I just think it's an exaggeration of the reality.
The guys who got it stood out (in all cultures), that means by default that they were standing out...from most others who did not get it. Cases were Toheis teacher, Tenryu when he met Ueshiba...all have some ki training, yet Ueshiab stood out.
In China a whole lot of people did ICMA yet only a percentage of those practicing have stood out.

I am not saying Takeda's students (Ueshiba included) were the only giants of aiki in Japan, I am just asking where are the others in their era? This seems pretty hard to hide within a community of budo people. I have yet to receive an intelligent answer to that question. I can see others here and there having some ki or whatever, but no big dogs anywhere to be found. Among all these meditaton, chi gong and chi breathers and ki exponants, the aiki arts stood alone.

We do agree that ki and aiki are old, and predate Ueshiba,
The other posters forwarding the preposterous idea that every modern budo-ka can reinvent a new personalized meaning of aiki is either the height of arrogance, or complete ignorance of the world of Budo that they are supposedly a part of, embarrassing really. I'll leave the "insecure and childish" assessments I read here alone as they seem poorly constructed thoughts -in keeping with the quality of the rebuttals- and not worth consideration.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-20-2011 at 02:59 PM.
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Old 07-20-2011, 03:09 PM   #70
sakumeikan
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Re: The Word "Aikido"

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Dear Mr Curran:

I do not wish to distract from Francis' thread, however, I feel compelled to comment on your 'manners and respect to others' statement based on what I have seen from your online behavior. Most people find that talking in the third person about someone when they can hear or read what you are saying about them to another person is extremely disrespectful and in bad taste. You have done that to me when you questioned my lineage and experience concerning Tohei. I answered your questions and you never responded with a thank you or any other type of acknowledgment other than responding directly to another person's comment on my response where you talked about me in the third person. I responded to that with a direct post to you asking if you had any other questions, you never responded or acknowledged that post either - I found all of that disrespectful and an exhibit of bad manners. Now you are doing the same type of third person stuff with Dan's posts.

In some circles, people behave that way to intentionally attack people and show disrespect. If that is not your intention, OK - but now you know how others may be viewing the way you post.

I apologize for stepping off topic, but I felt the issue needed addressed and this was the latest occurrence that provided an opening.

Thank You

Greg Steckel
Dear Mr Steckel,
If you care to refresh you memory and look at the blogs where I asked you about your Aikido lineage I believe I asked these questions in a polite respectful manner.I also answered a supplementary blog from a gentleman who shared your lineage where I made it quite clear my position in relation to my request for information concerning your lineage.Again I ask you to check my reply to him. This dialogue took place over a year ago.May I ask the following question of you ?If you were really upset or peeved at my failure to respond in a manner you feel is appropriate why did you not express you feelings sooner?Why wait a year to take me to task? Had you sent me a P.M . I would have immediately remedied my oversight.
So in order to put this issue to bed I will repeat for all our readers the following.1. At no time have I ever sought to disrespect you in any way.2. On the basis that I have neglected to thank you for
not responding to you earlier mail, I send my belated Thank You.
Thank You .
J.Curran
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Old 07-20-2011, 03:42 PM   #71
gregstec
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Re: The Word "Aikido"

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Mr Steckel,
If you care to refresh you memory and look at the blogs where I asked you about your Aikido lineage I believe I asked these questions in a polite respectful manner.I also answered a supplementary blog from a gentleman who shared your lineage where I made it quite clear my position in relation to my request for information concerning your lineage.Again I ask you to check my reply to him. This dialogue took place over a year ago.May I ask the following question of you ?If you were really upset or peeved at my failure to respond in a manner you feel is appropriate why did you not express you feelings sooner?Why wait a year to take me to task? Had you sent me a P.M . I would have immediately remedied my oversight.
So in order to put this issue to bed I will repeat for all our readers the following.1. At no time have I ever sought to disrespect you in any way.2. On the basis that I have neglected to thank you for
not responding to you earlier mail, I send my belated Thank You.
Thank You .
J.Curran
Joe,

Thank you for the belated apology. However, just to set the record straight, the post I was referring to was just over a month ago on 6/16/2011 and not over a year ago - here is the link:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...817#post285817

Also, you have not explained why you talk about people in the third person in front of them - that is considered extremely rude and in poor taste.

Thank you

Greg
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Old 07-20-2011, 04:40 PM   #72
Hellis
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Re: The Word "Aikido"

Hi Joe

You are too insensative.

Henry Ellis
British Aikido
http://britishaikido.blogspot.com/
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Old 07-20-2011, 07:35 PM   #73
gregstec
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Re: The Word "Aikido"

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Joe,

Thank you for the belated apology. However, just to set the record straight, the post I was referring to was just over a month ago on 6/16/2011 and not over a year ago - here is the link:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...817#post285817

Also, you have not explained why you talk about people in the third person in front of them - that is considered extremely rude and in poor taste.

Thank you

Greg
Just to let folks know - Joe and I have exchanged private emails and have cleared up any misunderstandings and there are no further issues.

Thanks

Greg
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Old 07-20-2011, 09:24 PM   #74
graham christian
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Re: The Word "Aikido"

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
Would it be that presumptuous of me to assume that a majority of what attracts people to aikido, what initially defined it for us, was O'Sensei? Was he the promoter, or was he really the promotion? If we promote on his back our own interpretations, without first being able to match or exceed his own, what does that make us?
I would say yes it is presumptuous of you.

As I have said there was promotion.1) People asked and were given descriptions of what Aikido is.2) O'Senseis words were usually in that promotion. 3) They saw film of him, others read about him, others met him, and were impressed by what they saw.

So for you personally seeing him himself may have been what defined it for you.

So he was both part promoter and party to it's promotion.

As to should we promote on his back? I would say no. You should always promote on your own back for that is what you are offering isn't it? So you should promote your way of Aikido honestly and then those who want to learn that will come and not be dissatisfied for you are delivering what you promise.

Comparing to what you believe was O'Senseis Aikido you also have the right to do in response to questions asked about such and it's relation to yours. In other words people naturally ask about the founder, the person you thank for the wonderful art.

However, note the major difference. That is not the promotion, it is background information.

Regards.G.
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