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Old 07-01-2011, 04:47 PM   #101
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

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Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
Hi Kevin, want to guess where I first heard about it?
From your posts, here.

Anyway do you have any feeling regarding what I said about changing yourself so that your actions don't operate within that paradigm anymore? Do you think it is far fetched? Thanks!
Thanks. Well I think if it generates thought and discussion about what you guys are talking about then the conversation is valuable.

I am not sure I am understanding everything especially the stuff on transcendence so can't comment on that directly.

However this thought comes to mind when reading the entirety of the discussion:

OODA is a model for a theory. It gives us a reference point to talk about this stuff. So in that since it is awesome cause it helps us put words and concepts around the subject.

OODA is not a methodology or fight strategy. You can apply the principles of OODA but it in itself does nothing for you.

I think we have a tendency to want to make simple things complex. Again, OODA is a simplistic model that was wonderfully organized and explained by Boyd that describes a process related to decison making and action.

I think the discussion around it is awesome!

IMO, the beauty of OODA is its simplicity. Either you are ahead of the loop or you are no. If you are not then you are losing and will continue to lose. Recognizing this is paramount for fighters or anyone that is working in areas of martial arts or physical conflict.

Failure to recognize this means you are experiencing dissonance. This is what causes the delay in your process and it is the thing you can affect. Recognising the dissonance is the first step and the second step is taking action to resolce or mitigate it.

So by transcedence I take it to mean you are trying to transcend the dissonance you experience to improve your response.

An important fact in the equation. But transcending the dissonance doesn't mean we will prevail necessarily. Only that we recognize cognitively what is going on.

We still have the issue of the other person to deal with and what they are doing to us and with what object etc.

It may mean that we can do nothing but recognize that we are screwed and going to die.

We can be the best martial artist on the planet. In shape, at one with the universe, AWESOME Internal Strength skills, have the whole no mind thing going for us.......

And A 98 year old woman with no skill, the element of surprise and a baseball bat can ruin our day.

I think OODA is as simple as understanding that fact.

As far as OODA helping us with our training:

Once we understand the role of dissonance and the importance of getting ahead of the decision cycle and that OODA in concept has NOTHING to do with martial techincs or skills and everything to do with strategy and opportunity.....

It liberates us to break down the barriers and paradigm imposed on us through our own preconceptions, experiences....and the various methodologies, styles, art, systems and begin to make better informed decisions about where we should spend our time training in order to best "shorten" or mitigate the situations (OODA) we believe we might find ourselves in martially.

I hope this makes some sense. It is just off the top of my head.

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Old 07-01-2011, 04:56 PM   #102
graham christian
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Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

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Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Tim,
If you consider that aikido waza is ineffective in an actual fight why do you train in Aikido ?Do you consider it a Martial art?If you do ,why will it be ineffective , if you do not consider aikido as a martial art, are you practicing meditation , philosophy , keep fit [in fancy uniforms ] or what?In my opinion the Aikido community is slowly but surely taking a martial art and diluting it to a point where it compares with synchronised swimming or ballroom dancing.
Next thing we will have is Olympic competition for the the
best presented aikidoka sequence dancing.
Cheers, Joe.
Hi Joe.
I'm not going to answer for Tim but I think you bring up a great point. A lot of people think such things lead to what you point out.

Here's the thing. Even more who do it end up as you point out.

However, in the end the ones who do it properly do not enter into competitive fighting yet if life brings it then they are in a fight and handling it. To the outsider they were fighting but to them they were merely exercising principles of non-competition. Thus they have no fear of fighting.

What do you think?

Regards.G.
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Old 07-01-2011, 05:05 PM   #103
Keith Larman
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Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Made a great deal of sense to me, Kevin. Great post and thanks.

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Old 07-01-2011, 05:12 PM   #104
JW
 
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Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Hi Graham, those are great anecdotes, thanks. So great in fact, some might call them Paul Bunyan tales. But, of course I have no evidence upon which to call you a liar. (If people call you strange after looking at the hats in your vids for instance.. ok, there are plenty of reasons to call me strange as well, so I hope "strange" doesn't make one a liar.)

One thing though is we don't have that fellow's side of the story. He might say, "oh that guy clearly couldn't handle me, so I never really tried with him." Example here, when people were alarmed at Dan's posts here long ago, they went to check him out. They stayed with us to share their sides of the story, and that helped people like me really perk up.

OK so all that said-- you might be doing a fine job of telling the objective truth about your anecdotes. So let's start there. How in the world did you accomplish this? You have described your feeling during the encounters (harmonizing, just "be," don't fight, that sort of thing). Now there is some physical ramification of this state of mind, surely-- and that's what the other guy ran into. Anyway we won't hit on a black-and-white correct answer right off the bat-- but we have to theorize and experiment, if we really do want those answers.

One last thing that is of central importance: I presume you did not do things like read a bunch of philosophy (O-sensei's words included) and then suddenly have these abilities. Instead, there is some kind of training there-- something that made you become able to do these things. Even if you want to keep your methods private, maybe we could discuss the specific effects of your training.
Would you care to share regarding what exactly are these changes in body and mind that your training has produced, that allow these abilities? Thanks!

Hi Kevin-
Excellent, thanks. I need lots more partner practice!
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Old 07-01-2011, 05:13 PM   #105
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Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Do you consider it a Martial art?
No. Martial discipline would be better (please consider: aikibudo, aikijitsu, aikido, aiki-ken, aiki-jo). Do you for example seriously believe that you learn to how to fight with a sword in Aikido? Really? Katori shinto ryu is a whole damn harder to master, whereas the sword techniques in Aikido are relatively easy.

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
If you consider that aikido waza is ineffective in an actual fight why do you train in Aikido ?
I practise aikido, not aikijitsu. The first , to me means discipline, the second art. Jitsu form is actual combat, fight to survive. Do is disciplinairy practise in martial context to understand why something (in jitsu) works.

So I practise/train to understand and learn the body mechanics according the philosophy of aiki. I do not have focus on learning how to fight (jitsu). I merely use that aspect to understand the principles and to verify my understanding (do).

To my understanding in Aikido I must try and learn to be able to get in the right place at the right time to be in control of the (any) situation. Then I decide whether or not to inflict damage. Aikido happens before that decision. O Sensei: when someone decides to attack me he has already lost....

Others probably feel different on the subject which is fine by me.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 07-01-2011, 05:28 PM   #106
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Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

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Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
In fact the ideas about technique-based training are intimately familiar to me. But I've had a change of heart.

....but aren't being taught that way? And that the accounts of O-sensei's physical abilities seem so different than what is going on in aikido.
I cannot help but think "depends on the style and your teacher". How do you know your teacher is any good? How can you judge him when you have hardly (no is more likely) knowledge of Aikido? When you want to advance you search, and probably change teachers until you find that teacher that fits your idea of what Aikido is (supposed to be).

O Sensei has displayed seemingly unhuman power which where essentially a mechanical trick.....we have done some of these exercises.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 07-01-2011, 05:37 PM   #107
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Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

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Yeah, it was a number of years ago when I was training a lot with some very good people with lots of experience. We were occasionally mixing it up on the mat when it was just a few of us. I found that when I was successful it was when I had that level of control of the entire thing. And when I wasn't it was when I lost that control in the whole feedback loop. Kind of like being a half step behind all the time.

So I keep standing around, doing solo exercises, trying to build a different body, trying to burn in pathways inside... As I said elsewhere, it "informs" my techniques. It "informs" my waza. It vgyallows me to be there first, to flow more easily, to change more fluidly. So I find that, for myself, it *is* the "how" you're talking about. Yeah, I know all about "let your ki flow", I know all about "relax". But most of us also remember how frustrating that was to hear when we first started. And as we got better we'd say the same thing to others. But... Do we really understand "how" that works? Why it works sometimes now when it didn't before? What's going on "under the covers" that makes it work? I don't think I've answered that question to my own satisfaction yet, but I'm a lot more satisfied with making progress.
Cool. For me I describe it as "branches and sequels" as we gain experience we begin to recognize patterns and movements and we develop responses. Getting better we begin to reduce proprioceptions and create situations where when we are ahead our opponent can't catch up and when we are behind we have the ability to make up the gap. There are a number of ways to do this. As you know working with someone like Toby Threadgill this becomes very apparent.

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Old 07-01-2011, 05:48 PM   #108
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Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
when we are behind we have the ability to make up the gap.
This is a critical overlooked thing, I think.
I get obsessed with working towards an ideal-- for instance, always being ahead is a great ideal. But then what? If that falls through for just one moment then I could be hosed. Correcting that momentary failure is a big task to study.
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Old 07-01-2011, 06:03 PM   #109
graham christian
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Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

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Hi Graham, those are great anecdotes, thanks. So great in fact, some might call them Paul Bunyan tales. But, of course I have no evidence upon which to call you a liar. (If people call you strange after looking at the hats in your vids for instance.. ok, there are plenty of reasons to call me strange as well, so I hope "strange" doesn't make one a liar.)

One thing though is we don't have that fellow's side of the story. He might say, "oh that guy clearly couldn't handle me, so I never really tried with him." Example here, when people were alarmed at Dan's posts here long ago, they went to check him out. They stayed with us to share their sides of the story, and that helped people like me really perk up.

OK so all that said-- you might be doing a fine job of telling the objective truth about your anecdotes. So let's start there. How in the world did you accomplish this? You have described your feeling during the encounters (harmonizing, just "be," don't fight, that sort of thing). Now there is some physical ramification of this state of mind, surely-- and that's what the other guy ran into. Anyway we won't hit on a black-and-white correct answer right off the bat-- but we have to theorize and experiment, if we really do want those answers.

One last thing that is of central importance: I presume you did not do things like read a bunch of philosophy (O-sensei's words included) and then suddenly have these abilities. Instead, there is some kind of training there-- something that made you become able to do these things. Even if you want to keep your methods private, maybe we could discuss the specific effects of your training.
Would you care to share regarding what exactly are these changes in body and mind that your training has produced, that allow these abilities? Thanks!

Hi Kevin-
Excellent, thanks. I need lots more partner practice!
Hi Jonathan.
Glad you liked them, I have many as have some I know but I don't usually tell my personal encounter stories for fear of being seen as arrogant or lying. That's why I just communicate what I know is possible to achieve for those who doubt it.

As to central importance and methods of training which led me the current point, well that's been stated by me many times in past posts. Basically Toheis four rules of mind and body unification and his five rules of Aikido application.

As far as sharing goes then I do and have many times and learned it's more of a matter of what is done with what I have shared. Nothing I do is secret or private it's no different to any other discipline in as much of keeping applying principles. The process is the same, some of the principles are indeed different and those are the ones that make the difference in my opinion.

Changes in body and mind? Well if you have read what I have said before then I emphasize three things: spirit, mind and body. The changes are many but to boil it done it is this: Awakened spirit, calm mind and relaxed body.

Regards.G.
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Old 07-01-2011, 06:38 PM   #110
Janet Rosen
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Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
And A 98 year old woman with no skill, the element of surprise and a baseball bat can ruin our day.
And my goal in life is to BE that 98 year old woman albiet with a bit of skill...
(serious note: Kevin, GOOD to see you live and posting!)

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 07-01-2011, 08:00 PM   #111
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Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Thanks Janet. LOL. Starting to get my life back to "normal" although making a move to Germany in about three weeks!

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Old 07-01-2011, 08:11 PM   #112
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

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Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
This is a critical overlooked thing, I think.
I get obsessed with working towards an ideal-- for instance, always being ahead is a great ideal. But then what? If that falls through for just one moment then I could be hosed. Correcting that momentary failure is a big task to study.
Not to get off the subject, but there are systems that work this very specifically. That is from "point of failure"

I think O Sensei and the other leaders in Aikido wanted us to train under specfic constraints and conditions in situations that force us to think and deal with some very specific things.

I think those reasons are probably very valid and worth studying.

Things like musubi and mushin come to mind. These things are important to understand if ultimately you want to achieve a higher level of skill giving all other things equal. Keith Larman addresses this above.

However, I agree, that "but then what" is also very important. Recognizing the various components of study and then piecing it back together in an over all strategy of study iswhat I think we all struggle with. There are only so many hours in the day!

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Old 07-01-2011, 09:54 PM   #113
hughrbeyer
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Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Y'know Jonathan, it would be nice if we were all working on the same thing underneath and we could all get together and join hands and sing kumbya while waving ribbons around, but I'm guessing it's not going to happen.

Just going by the evidence of the posts of the past month on these forums people have very different ideas about what makes Aikido work. They use entirely different language, and I think that language reflects the reality of what they're practicing.

So we have a set of folks who see Aikido as forces and vectors, moving the CofM away from the CofG, applying force perpendicular to the line between uke's feet, etc. For them it's a problem of technique, positioning, and applying force appropriately.

Closely related are the jutsu guys, who love to lock up the joints and use the pain and mechanical leverage they gain to move uke.

Then we have the folks who think Aikido is based on momentum, using your partner's force against him, using his attack to unbalance him, and so forth. I would put Koichi Tohei Sensei in this group, at least when he's in bouncy-bouncy mode. For them it's about blending with the attack and redirecting it.

Then you have the group who worry about hara-to-hara connection, usually with a healthy dose of ki thrown in. The post I wrote above in response to J's original question is entirely in the language of this group. They talk about "receiving" more than "blending". They talk about "connection" almost in a taiji push-hands kind of way. I think Tohei (when he plants his feet on the ground), Yamaguchi Sensei, and Saotome Sensei are in this group.

And then you've got the IS folks, who are not in any way to be confused with the connection folks. It seems to me, tho still a neophyte, the IS approach is very different. It avoids connection--instead of receiving the attack into your hara you direct the intention of the attack around you. Rather than being a wall, you're invisible. Rather than extend ki out in any one direction, you are complete and stable in yourself. I don't know how much the various shihans have been in this group, but Gleason Sensei says the IS perspective has allowed him to recognize and understand things about Yamaguchi's waza that he'd never seen before.

So these people aren't going to agree, and why should they? What a boring world that would be. I'm much more interested in hearing how they disagree, how they think what they're doing works, and what they see are the advantages over other people's approaches.

Of course, all this suggests the question: Which style of Aikido was O-Sensei's Aikido?

But that's above my pay grade.
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Old 07-01-2011, 10:30 PM   #114
Janet Rosen
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Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Hugh that's a pretty good summary/distillation though I'm not yet far enough into IS to differentiate it from the connection camp...perhaps some more work and seminars will have that make more sense to me Thank you for the thought and articulation.

Janet Rosen
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Old 07-02-2011, 12:19 AM   #115
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Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Hi Hugh, that's totally true. You and Keith hit the diversity nail on the head, and I like it.

Regarding everyone agreeing on something, I would only expect the very most basic stuff, which would be shared amongst the groups, to be what we could all analyze together (though you are right, lots of differences/variations on the basics will persist to muddy the discussion.. but that's great, more food for thought). The idea that something significant is shared is far from proven, so I won't say I firmly think it is true.. but I'm still leaning that way. But certainly I agree that looking at the differences would be a good thing to do.

I would be very surprised if Gleason sensei agreed with you about a "connection" camp that is distinct from an "IS" camp. I think the "directing force around yourself" thing is just one specific aspect-- in general, I would characterize IS as the study of connection. But I'm no expert, just saying how I see it.
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Old 07-02-2011, 06:34 AM   #116
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Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Y'know Jonathan, it would be nice if we were all working on the same thing underneath and we could all get together and join hands and sing kumbya while waving ribbons around, but I'm guessing it's not going to happen.

Just going by the evidence of the posts of the past month on these forums people have very different ideas about what makes Aikido work. They use entirely different language, and I think that language reflects the reality of what they're practicing.
Bring on the diversity (with out the zealotry), every discipline has its own language, methods and jargon and once past that there is probably a lot of common ground as well as unique insights(certainly this has been my experience working in interdisciplinary science). Call it the 30 odd views of Mount Fuji or the 3 blind men and the elephant analogy I think there is plenty of room for different tools/view points to improve understanding. Time is short but hopefully there is enough time to try many approaches when the opportunity presents

Having sampled a few of the mentioned ideas I find myself always on the lookout for the next thing around the corner that might bring some improvement (because there is plenty of room there)

One of my favourite quotes from a seminar a few years back "Your aikido will only improve when your concept of aikido improves" Kenjiro Yoshigasaki Sensei

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Old 07-02-2011, 06:39 AM   #117
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Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Jonathan -- Speculating on what Gleason Sensei thinks is definitely above my pay grade.

I didn't say that there's no connection in IS--but how you achieve it and what you do with it seems very different to me.
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Old 07-02-2011, 07:26 AM   #118
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Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Y'know Jonathan, it would be nice if we were all working on the same thing underneath and we could all get together and join hands and sing kumbya while waving ribbons around, but I'm guessing it's not going to happen.

Just going by the evidence of the posts of the past month on these forums people have very different ideas about what makes Aikido work. They use entirely different language, and I think that language reflects the reality of what they're practicing.

So we have a set of folks who see Aikido as forces and vectors, moving the CofM away from the CofG, applying force perpendicular to the line between uke's feet, etc. For them it's a problem of technique, positioning, and applying force appropriately.

Closely related are the jutsu guys, who love to lock up the joints and use the pain and mechanical leverage they gain to move uke.

Then we have the folks who think Aikido is based on momentum, using your partner's force against him, using his attack to unbalance him, and so forth. I would put Koichi Tohei Sensei in this group, at least when he's in bouncy-bouncy mode. For them it's about blending with the attack and redirecting it.

Then you have the group who worry about hara-to-hara connection, usually with a healthy dose of ki thrown in. The post I wrote above in response to J's original question is entirely in the language of this group. They talk about "receiving" more than "blending". They talk about "connection" almost in a taiji push-hands kind of way. I think Tohei (when he plants his feet on the ground), Yamaguchi Sensei, and Saotome Sensei are in this group.

And then you've got the IS folks, who are not in any way to be confused with the connection folks. It seems to me, tho still a neophyte, the IS approach is very different. It avoids connection--instead of receiving the attack into your hara you direct the intention of the attack around you. Rather than being a wall, you're invisible. Rather than extend ki out in any one direction, you are complete and stable in yourself. I don't know how much the various shihans have been in this group, but Gleason Sensei says the IS perspective has allowed him to recognize and understand things about Yamaguchi's waza that he'd never seen before.

So these people aren't going to agree, and why should they? What a boring world that would be. I'm much more interested in hearing how they disagree, how they think what they're doing works, and what they see are the advantages over other people's approaches.

Of course, all this suggests the question: Which style of Aikido was O-Sensei's Aikido?

But that's above my pay grade.
Hugh,

The IS folks are just focused on building a body capable of actually doing the things you mentioned in a more effective, less cooperative way. IS is nothing more than a process of conditioning the body so that it is relaxedly connected and relaxedly supported against outside forces. This support and connection is strengthened by various things (breath, etc) and then the entire unit is moved from the center/hara/dantien. How you use it to affect another person is up to you, but once you have that body you can do a lot of different things with it. Connecting to another persons center and moving them (up, down, around) is just one of them. On the surface it's the same thing that most aikido says it does too, only without the specifics of building that body. You're expected to get it through waza, IF the instructor is even aware of it, which is pretty well proven to not work without some inside knowledge into the process of actually building the body itself, and even then only maybe.

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Old 07-02-2011, 09:08 AM   #119
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Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Then you have the group who worry about hara-to-hara connection, usually with a healthy dose of ki thrown in. The post I wrote above in response to J's original question is entirely in the language of this group. They talk about "receiving" more than "blending". They talk about "connection" almost in a taiji push-hands kind of way. I think Tohei (when he plants his feet on the ground), Yamaguchi Sensei, and Saotome Sensei are in this group.

And then you've got the IS folks, who are not in any way to be confused with the connection folks. It seems to me, tho still a neophyte, the IS approach is very different. It avoids connection--instead of receiving the attack into your hara you direct the intention of the attack around you. Rather than being a wall, you're invisible. Rather than extend ki out in any one direction, you are complete and stable in yourself.
I'm new to this, only started conditioning my body a few months ago (and not sure if I do it correctly), but I'd say that the IS folks don't avoid connection (rather the opposite IMO) and being a wall is definitely one of the options. (As far as I understood from what Dan taught in his seminar in the Netherlands and from my temporary membership of the QiJin list)

So I don't think there is a distinction in the way you describe here.

But perhaps it depends on which IS teacher you have in mind.

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Old 07-02-2011, 11:22 AM   #120
sakumeikan
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Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
No. Martial discipline would be better (please consider: aikibudo, aikijitsu, aikido, aiki-ken, aiki-jo). Do you for example seriously believe that you learn to how to fight with a sword in Aikido? Really? Katori shinto ryu is a whole damn harder to master, whereas the sword techniques in Aikido are relatively easy.

I practise aikido, not aikijitsu. The first , to me means discipline, the second art. Jitsu form is actual combat, fight to survive. Do is disciplinairy practise in martial context to understand why something (in jitsu) works.

So I practise/train to understand and learn the body mechanics according the philosophy of aiki. I do not have focus on learning how to fight (jitsu). I merely use that aspect to understand the principles and to verify my understanding (do).

To my understanding in Aikido I must try and learn to be able to get in the right place at the right time to be in control of the (any) situation. Then I decide whether or not to inflict damage. Aikido happens before that decision. O Sensei: when someone decides to attack me he has already lost....

Others probably feel different on the subject which is fine by me.
Dear Tim,
On what basis do you consider Katori Shinto ryu is more difficult to learn than Aikiken?Is this your own opinion or can you substantiate this claim?Surely it depends on whether you train in basic Aikiken and do not practise the multi dimensional aspect of aikiken[Sword /Stick Sword /Tanto/Sword /body art applications .Both Kashima /Aikiken training methods are invaluable yo Aikidoka in general.I do not imagine anybody studying these two systems will go on a rampant rage and use these skills in the public domain.
You have your own views here, I have mine.I would not say one method is harder to learn than the other.It depends on the trainee and the quality of instruction given.
Have a nice day, Joe.
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Old 07-02-2011, 11:45 AM   #121
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Thank you for your "classification" Hugh!

For me who never someone of the "IS-Group" this is the first time to grasp a little understanding of what makes this group different.
And it helps me a little bit to classify what we do in this landscape.
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Old 07-02-2011, 03:00 PM   #122
graham christian
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Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Y'know Jonathan, it would be nice if we were all working on the same thing underneath and we could all get together and join hands and sing kumbya while waving ribbons around, but I'm guessing it's not going to happen.

Just going by the evidence of the posts of the past month on these forums people have very different ideas about what makes Aikido work. They use entirely different language, and I think that language reflects the reality of what they're practicing.

So we have a set of folks who see Aikido as forces and vectors, moving the CofM away from the CofG, applying force perpendicular to the line between uke's feet, etc. For them it's a problem of technique, positioning, and applying force appropriately.

Closely related are the jutsu guys, who love to lock up the joints and use the pain and mechanical leverage they gain to move uke.

Then we have the folks who think Aikido is based on momentum, using your partner's force against him, using his attack to unbalance him, and so forth. I would put Koichi Tohei Sensei in this group, at least when he's in bouncy-bouncy mode. For them it's about blending with the attack and redirecting it.

Then you have the group who worry about hara-to-hara connection, usually with a healthy dose of ki thrown in. The post I wrote above in response to J's original question is entirely in the language of this group. They talk about "receiving" more than "blending". They talk about "connection" almost in a taiji push-hands kind of way. I think Tohei (when he plants his feet on the ground), Yamaguchi Sensei, and Saotome Sensei are in this group.

And then you've got the IS folks, who are not in any way to be confused with the connection folks. It seems to me, tho still a neophyte, the IS approach is very different. It avoids connection--instead of receiving the attack into your hara you direct the intention of the attack around you. Rather than being a wall, you're invisible. Rather than extend ki out in any one direction, you are complete and stable in yourself. I don't know how much the various shihans have been in this group, but Gleason Sensei says the IS perspective has allowed him to recognize and understand things about Yamaguchi's waza that he'd never seen before.

So these people aren't going to agree, and why should they? What a boring world that would be. I'm much more interested in hearing how they disagree, how they think what they're doing works, and what they see are the advantages over other people's approaches.

Of course, all this suggests the question: Which style of Aikido was O-Sensei's Aikido?

But that's above my pay grade.
Que???
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Old 07-02-2011, 04:23 PM   #123
Janet Rosen
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Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Can people please trim the posts they are quoting? Very tiresome scrolling scrolling through the same post eight times just to find a couple of new sentences at the end - esp those of us reading on a handheld device. Thanks!!!

Janet Rosen
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Old 07-02-2011, 05:18 PM   #124
JW
 
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Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
For me who never someone of the "IS-Group" this is the first time to grasp a little understanding of what makes this group different.
And it helps me a little bit to classify what we do in this landscape.
While I still appreciate Hugh's process and sharing of thoughts-- please keep in mind that Jason, Janet, and I all thought there was something wrong about the categories.. particularly regarding connection.
Not saying Janet and Jason were totally saying the same thing as me, but I still think there is something fundamental about "connection" in IS.

That is to say the exploration of unification, connection, bridging of "gaps," and that sort of thing are the basis of IS as I understand it. Like when Mike S calls it "vector force," or "force-skill," as I understand there is a central importance of summation, or recombination of things into a new whole. (you know, like how a single resultant vector is equivalent to the net effect of all other vectors in a system)

In other words, in my understanding you could say IS is the fruits of cultivation of musubi. Maybe these are the types of comments that should only be discussed in the company of those more knowledgeable though.
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Old 07-03-2011, 09:06 AM   #125
hughrbeyer
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Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Being only a small fish in the pond, I'm not going to try to argue that my interpretation is the only one. I'd just suggest--think about how elbow power is used; think about how spirals are used. Both alter the nature of connection profoundly.
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