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Old 06-24-2011, 10:12 PM   #26
jester
 
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Re: Judo and IP/IS

Don't be so coy Dan. If you don't feel like discussing the video, please feel free to move along.

I didn't start this thread to be a pissing match. Just an avenue to figure out what it is you are talking about.

-It seems to be all about semantics!
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Old 06-24-2011, 10:20 PM   #27
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Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
Don't be so coy Dan. If you don't feel like discussing the video, please feel free to move along.
I didn't start this thread to be a pissing match. Just an avenue to figure out what it is you are talking about.
Yes you did. You were disingenuous from the jump.
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Old 06-25-2011, 01:03 AM   #28
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Re: Judo and IP/IS

Jester:

You ought to be reported for backpedalling, passive-aggressiveness, and backhanded insults. I say, if you think dude is talking tall tales, prove it...here, or on the mat.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 06-25-2011, 02:31 AM   #29
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Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Ya. Really informed and useful opinions
Just so that were on the record: you disagree with the notion that ki is bodily skill or do you just like making noise?

Quote:
there from whatever source.
Well, Feldenkrais studied directly with Kano, (in Japan), Koizumi and and Mifune (amongst others).

Who did you study with again, Dan, such that we should place your reflections on Judo above his?

Quote:
As useful as you then you telling us "Don't believe anything you read, and only half of what you hear."
Why not read the article and pick something substantive to elaborate on instead of taking cheap pot shots?

Quote:
Great conversation starter.
Hmm. It's a direct recollection and explanation from someone there at the time. What's more, it's quite direct in stating how ki was viewed in judo circles at the time.


Quote:
Good bye now.
Dan
Sure. You too.

Last edited by bob_stra : 06-25-2011 at 02:44 AM.
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Old 06-25-2011, 05:18 AM   #30
sakumeikan
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Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
It's a shot in the dark but you never know what will stick to the wall! You posted and it seems you have some Judo background.

I have no clue what the IP/IS thing is about and when it comes to Aikido but I wanted to see how it applies or doesn't apply to other arts.

Since the Aikido I study is based on Judo principals , I'd like to try that avenue to see what people have to say about it.

Thanks for the info.
Dear Tim,
The principles applied to Judo and Aikido are not the same. Judo ;when pushed /pull.When pulled push.Aikido when pulled;Enter .When Pushed :turn and push.As a long term judoka/aikidoka you will be mixed up if you apply Judo principles to aikido.In the first place the posture is different, the maai is different and the initial contact with uke/control of uke is different.Judoka close the maai and due to their posture [shizentai etc ] they can be kicked /punched fairly easily before/on establishing contact.Of course once contact is established
a throw can be set up or if the encounter goes to the ground the judoka can apply ne waza.Judoka in general do not train in atemi.
As a footnote most if not all my own teachers were Budo trained.Judo to me is closer to Iaido/Kendo in tai sabaki / foot work.Aikido uses hamni /judo shizentai +Jigotai.
Cheers, Joe.
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Old 06-25-2011, 05:44 AM   #31
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Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:
Pat Togher wrote: View Post
Wow, the article you cited was great.
Could you share more?

Pat
Dear Pat,
Unless I am mistaken reference to the seika tanden[tantien ] is made in a book on Judo by E.J.Harrison.The tanden according to Eastern viewpoints is the source of/ centre of Ki /power.If one acquires the ability to activate /use the tanden a person can become light as a feather /or be come a heavy as a mountain.Of course this is not saying a man loses or gains weight.
My own judo teacher [who was 90 % disabled]in over thirteen years no one who ever came to the dojo ever threw him.When attempting to throw him it was like moving a building.
In aikido Tamura Sensei[ a great man ] was tiny yet very few guys could budge him.He would just stand a smile while you tried in vain to move him.He is a great loss to the aikido community.
Cheers, Joe
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Old 06-25-2011, 07:17 AM   #32
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Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
Just so that were on the record: you disagree with the notion that ki is bodily skill or do you just like making noise?
Disagree with Feldenkrais? Yes I do. On just what part...well that might have been an interesting discussion.
Quote:
Hmm. It's a direct recollection and explanation from someone there at the time. What's more, it's quite direct in stating how ki was viewed in judo circles at the time.
I don't care how Ki was viewed by Feldenkrais. Nor was his opinion a reflection of how ki was viewed by everyone in Judo. In fact his quotes about ki not being in the tanden and being shit, directly contradicts other writings of those who trained in judo at that time and which are available elsewhere.
And to help you, since it escaped your attention, he was making a case for disagreeing with those in Judo. in your own quote he makes it clear he was in fact disagreeing with a widely held belief.
And what makes this open for opinion? Because anything is open for opinion when you don't know the subject.

Quote:
Why not read the article and pick something substantive to elaborate on instead of taking cheap pot shots?
I have read it I am sparing you tall tales and half truths which are not really worth your time reading. Although, if we borrow some advice from Tim's Grandfather; you should apparently not believe anything that Feldenkrais wrote and only half of what he says -though that doesn't quite add up or make sense anyway does it?
Speaking of which, the cheap pot shots started a long time ago. Why didn't you say something then if cheap shots bother you? They don't really help do they? Nor are they conducive to good conversation. Something to think about going in next time.
I'll leave you to reading more opinion.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 06-25-2011 at 07:28 AM.
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Old 06-25-2011, 09:16 AM   #33
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Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Tim,
The principles applied to Judo and Aikido are not the same. Judo ;when pushed /pull.When pulled push.Aikido when pulled;Enter .When Pushed :turn and push.As a long term judoka/aikidoka you will be mixed up if you apply Judo principles to aikido.In the first place the posture is different, the maai is different and the initial contact with uke/control of uke is different.Judoka close the maai and due to their posture [shizentai etc ] they can be kicked /punched fairly easily before/on establishing contact.Of course once contact is established
a throw can be set up or if the encounter goes to the ground the judoka can apply ne waza.Judoka in general do not train in atemi.
As a footnote most if not all my own teachers were Budo trained.Judo to me is closer to Iaido/Kendo in tai sabaki / foot work.Aikido uses hamni /judo shizentai +Jigotai.
Cheers, Joe.
Thanks for the info Joe. Tomiki Aikido was developed for Judo players. It follows those principals. Although the techniques are different looking, a principal is a principal and you have to understand what is happening in terms of off balance etc.

For instance, take Kote Gaeshi and Osoto Gari. They look totally different but they really aren't. You can get Uke in the same position with either technique. It's the off balance that puts uke in a certain position. That's how I see it.

I have a book from 1957 that Kenji Tomiki wrote entitled Judo and Aikido. Chapter 4 is titled "Explaination of Aikido Techniques According to the Principals of Judo".

They are very similar you just have to look at it from another angle.

-

-It seems to be all about semantics!
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Old 06-25-2011, 09:35 AM   #34
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Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Jester:

You ought to be reported for backpedalling, passive-aggressiveness, and backhanded insults. I say, if you think dude is talking tall tales, prove it...here, or on the mat.
Lorel, did you even take the time to read the post that I was referring to as a tall tale? If you didn't, here it is. If you have nothing to ad, why even post?

Quote:
Of further interest may be an incident in the late 1930's when Takeda Sokaku (founder of Daito ryu aikijujutsu) stormed the stage at the budokan in front of a large public crowd filled with seriously educated budo men and a general audience gathered there for a budo exhibition. He started ranting how "the arts being shown were not the true arts of Japan and how the modern arts had ruined true bujutsu of Japan, That what was being shown was fake and he needed to show real bujutsu for the sake of the country! (not way to win friends and influence people eh?). He proceeded to then challenge the 5th, and 6th dans (Judoka as it was reported) to all come at him at once and do what they would. He started tossing them all over the stage and pinning them and insulting them while he did so in a loud voice. Many there were angry and found it startling and awe inspiring all at the same time. One fellow a student of Ueshiba and a koryu weapons guy said many were whispering in the crowd suddenly realizing who it was they were watching "Takeda!"
Oddly one account I read the Budo man himself a tenth dan and Koryu menkyo said it was 'thee most stunning display of budo he had ever seen before or since!" And yet Takeda was so frightening and rude that he would never consider training with him.
Okay
Next story.
I have it on good authority from another Koryu menkyo, who was told that at the Kodokan -every once in a while this little old man would show up unannounced and Kano would say to his guys "hey, try to throw that old man!" the seniors would beg off, but the new bully boys would give it a whirl, and not be able to throw the old guy but would instead get their asses handed to them. One event that was notable was a guy who gave the old dude a hard time not playing by the rules. Supposedly the old dud tatpped him on the hip and dislocated it. Who was the old guy. Ueshiba! The founder of Aikido and senior student of....? Takeda.
I have played with enough Master level teachers of the ICMA to know that the internal methods of the Japanese arts must have come from China, there are just too many similarities. Unfortunately, the Japanese arts are just like the Chinese ones. Most people are doing waza and want to only learn how to fight. And while they attain high rank and either are or..these days it is fair to say WERE...convinced they knew about internals...They really don't have a clue about the deeper stuff.

Dan
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-It seems to be all about semantics!
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Old 06-25-2011, 09:42 AM   #35
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Re: Judo and IP/IS

Oops. Didn't read that part. My bad. Ima exit outta here now.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 06-25-2011, 10:04 AM   #36
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Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Oops. Didn't read that part. My bad. Ima exit outta here now.
I should have quoted that in the first place. People are just passionate about this topic.

-

-It seems to be all about semantics!
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Old 06-25-2011, 10:07 AM   #37
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Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
Thanks for the info Joe. Tomiki Aikido was developed for Judo players. It follows those principals. Although the techniques are different looking, a principal is a principal and you have to understand what is happening in terms of off balance etc.

For instance, take Kote Gaeshi and Osoto Gari. They look totally different but they really aren't. You can get Uke in the same position with either technique. It's the off balance that puts uke in a certain position. That's how I see it.

I have a book from 1957 that Kenji Tomiki wrote entitled Judo and Aikido. Chapter 4 is titled "Explaination of Aikido Techniques According to the Principals of Judo".

They are very similar you just have to look at it from another angle.

-
Dear Tim,
Its quite a jump to connect a leg throw [o soto gari] with Kote Gaeshi [a te waza] .O Sotogari throws the man to his rear.Kote gaeshi rarely does this.Only thing in common between the two is the kuzushi[balance breaking ].You need to unbalance[mentally /physically] your partner before execution of any waza, be it against an opponent doing judo /aikido /sumo/pub brawls.
Tomiki Sensei being primarily a judoka [and competitive minded] would as expected would look at aikido from a judo perspective.
The book you mention came out at the same time as a quaint book by Bruce Tegner.This one was good for a laugh as was his Judo /Self Defence book.This self defence tome included defences against rabid dogs , oriental gents armed with axes etc.
I have a copy of this, offers over a thousand dollars only will be considered. Cheers, Joe.
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Old 06-25-2011, 10:42 AM   #38
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Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Tim,
Its quite a jump to connect a leg throw [o soto gari] with Kote Gaeshi [a te waza] .O Sotogari throws the man to his rear.Kote gaeshi rarely does this.Only thing in common between the two is the kuzushi[balance breaking ].You need to unbalance[mentally /physically] your partner before execution of any waza, be it against an opponent doing judo /aikido /sumo/pub brawls.
Tomiki Sensei being primarily a judoka [and competitive minded] would as expected would look at aikido from a judo perspective.
The book you mention came out at the same time as a quaint book by Bruce Tegner.This one was good for a laugh as was his Judo /Self Defence book.This self defence tome included defences against rabid dogs , oriental gents armed with axes etc.
I have a copy of this, offers over a thousand dollars only will be considered.

Cheers, Joe.
Thanks Joe! It took a few years to put it all together. It's not so far of a jump if you understand Kuzushi and what Kenji Tomiki's art is all about.

The book I am talking about was written by Kenji Tomiki himself. It only has 15 basic techniques and it's a great glimpse into how he developed his system. Here is a link to it. http://www.budovideos.com/shop/custo...roductid=17014 You apparently have a different book.

I don't expect everyone to understand the correlations between techniques but you got the similarity which is Kuzushi! All techniques in Tomiki Aikido require it. Does it really matter how you get it?

If a wrist is turned back it puts uke on his heels (elbow goes down). If it is turned forward it puts uke on his toes (elbow goes up). In the book, Kenji Tomiki says when uke's posture is broken backwards (heels) to do ko-soto-gari or o-soto-gari. You can argue this all you want but I'll still have to agree with Kenji Tomiki. The pic in the bottom right looks a lot like the Kote Gaeshi I learned.



-

-It seems to be all about semantics!
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Old 06-25-2011, 10:48 AM   #39
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Re: Judo and IP/IS

Well Dan, I don't agree with what you wrote and am happy to refute it
but I'm equally happy for people to read the quote cited and make up their own mind. I think it stands on its own merit and frankly, I think you misread or misunderstood it. C'est la vie.

How about this, instead:

Phi cited the Go-No-Kata video. It's a good video as these things go, and GNK has some interesting historical ties to older jujitsu ryu.

Would you like to have a discussion about GNK (there are related videos to boot) or do you want to call it a day?

Frankly, I'm yet to be convinced of the profit in engaging in these discussions on Aikiweb (as I said in my initial replies) but I'm willing to bet against experience. Call me hopelessly optimistic.

Last edited by bob_stra : 06-25-2011 at 10:59 AM. Reason: fluency
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Old 06-25-2011, 11:03 AM   #40
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Re: Judo and IP/IS

We now interrupt this discussion for a quick humor break:

http://www.collegehumor.com/article/...tical-argument

Now back to the discussion.

-

-It seems to be all about semantics!
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Old 06-25-2011, 11:11 AM   #41
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Re: Judo and IP/IS

I prefer this one



Of course, for gits and shiggles, we could stick to the topic at hand, novel albeit that idea.
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Old 06-25-2011, 01:07 PM   #42
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Re: Judo and IP/IS

Dan, my Grandfather just knocked me on my ass for mis-quoting him. He said it's "believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see".

So there you have it.

-It seems to be all about semantics!
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Old 06-25-2011, 01:51 PM   #43
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Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
Thanks Joe! It took a few years to put it all together. It's not so far of a jump if you understand Kuzushi and what Kenji Tomiki's art is all about.

If a wrist is turned back it puts uke on his heels (elbow goes down). If it is turned forward it puts uke on his toes (elbow goes up). In the book, Kenji Tomiki says when uke's posture is broken backwards (heels) to do ko-soto-gari or o-soto-gari. You can argue this all you want but I'll still have to agree with Kenji Tomiki. The pic in the bottom right looks a lot like the Kote Gaeshi I learned.
-
FWIW, the two postures show the result of triggering the extensor reflex (pitch forward) and flexor reflex (pitch back), respectively, on the lower limbs. Read up on the Jendrassik maneuver. It can be done by applying sudden torque stretching in the upper limbs OR by sudden stretching of the lower limbs directly because the spinal reflexive circuits are connected.

O soto gari gains kuzushi by simply triggering the flexor reflex with a pop to the calf or hamstring and which is inverse to the extensor reflex that doctors demonstrate with a hammer rap to the patellar tendon.)

Enjoy.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 06-27-2011, 10:38 AM   #44
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Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
AFAIK, one person within judo did "have it," and applied it to HIS judo.
You might enjoy the clips and commentary here:
http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.p...st=0&sk=t&sd=a
Thanks for the link Cady. A lot of good info there.

Eric Joyce
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Old 06-27-2011, 10:42 AM   #45
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Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
Thanks Phi, is this your first post without humor??

I wonder if there's a video of Mifune doing it. I'll check around.

-
it's terrible that i posted that way. i need to be punished. i need to have a good looking judo lady to lock me down in a north-south lock. (many years ago when i took judo, a lady did that to me. after awhile, she noticed i didn't move. she asked why i wasn't trying to escape. my muffled reply was "i liked it here". she hit me and i rolled away laughing).

for the GNK (gonokata), it's not the throws that are important, but what happens in between, i.e. the various push-pull. there is a video of Ochiai sensei showing GNK. the things i would change would be to do the various push-pull without losing balance if the other person disappeared, along with the ability to switch from push to pull and vice versa without posture change, i.e. internal intent. there are a few more changes, but those would be the start.
*dogging and weaving now because a bunch of judo folks will jump me for sure*
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Old 07-02-2011, 10:21 PM   #46
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Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Really, it is I'm a con man, snake oil salesman, liar, and scam artist. Why bother?
Cheers
Dan
Sheesh, I wish someone would have told me this before I wasted my time training with you. I'm guessing the improvements I've made in my structure and stability had nothing to do with those crappy drills you've showed us. Purely coincidence!
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Old 07-06-2011, 08:26 PM   #47
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Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
Tomiki Aikido was developed for Judo players. It follows those principals. Although the techniques are different looking, a principal is a principal and you have to understand what is happening in terms of off balance etc.
This is incorrect imho. Tomiki K. studied the Daito Ryu/Aikibudo/Aikido of Ueshiba M. and being highly ranked and very knowledgeable in Judo and a professor of physical education, was able to see the obvious common points between the Aikido and Judo. For him, the primary difference that influenced Aiki waza or Ju waza was ma ai. But to say that his Aikido was developed for Judo players is a great exaggeration. Being highly ranked and influential in the Judo world it definitely supported his approach to Aikido and the way he structured and formulated it. He was also heavily influenced by Kano and encouraged to continue his research into Aikido and create a structured training method similar to the Judo paradigm, but contrary to what the book Judo and Aikido (or the earlier Judo:Appendix Aikido) may lead one to believe, Tomiki was not redesigning Aikido as per Judo principles. Kuzushi is required for any Aikido technique to work, regardless of style.

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
For instance, take Kote Gaeshi and Osoto Gari. They look totally different but they really aren't.
The main similarity between Kote Gaeshi and O Soto Gari is the direction of kake. Both go to the weak line at the back corner of the attacker. The kuzushi used to setup both techniques however are very different. The kuzushi for Kotegaeshi is to the front corner, at a lateral angle to the little toe of the leading foot while the kuzushi for O Soto Gari is to the back corner of the leading foot, planting the attacker's weight on that leg and then removing that support. In a real sense, kotegaeshi uses kuzushi to extend the spine, then compress or collapse it to the back corner. O Soto Gari uses kuzushi to compress the spine to the back corner, rendering the leg immovable, then collapse the body by removing the leg. Different forces, intents and directions in my book.

Just my 2 cents. My apologies for any thread drift.

Best
LC

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Old 07-06-2011, 10:49 PM   #48
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Re: Judo and IP/IS

Thanks for your input Larry. It's nice to see what other people get from their research.

I see just basic principals these days and don't get caught up with techniques. I can get Kote Gaeshi in so many ways and I see them all as the same thing.

I keep it very simple and it works out best for me..

-

Last edited by jester : 07-06-2011 at 10:55 PM.

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Old 07-07-2011, 06:34 AM   #49
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Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:
Bryan Walker wrote: View Post
Sheesh, I wish someone would have told me this before I wasted my time training with you. I'm guessing the improvements I've made in my structure and stability had nothing to do with those crappy drills you've showed us. Purely coincidence!
Hi Bryan
Yes, and someone should have told the guy with 20 years teaching grappling that this was nonsense as well. It would saved him being gassed and getting choked out by skills that oddly do not apply, or are mysteriously ...already in judo...even though no one has read about them there and most continue to argue against it. This thread being yet another example of the lack of knowledge of IP/aiki in judo....
Hope to see you again
Dan
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Old 07-07-2011, 08:37 AM   #50
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Re: Judo and IP/IS

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
This thread being yet another example of the lack of knowledge of IP/aiki in judo....

Dan
Here's you chance to fill us in, I'm all ears. How do you see it applying to Judo??

How are the set ups, throws etc different??

-

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