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Old 06-27-2011, 09:18 PM   #76
stan baker
Location: east granby, ct
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 174
Wake Island
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Re: What Is Your Frame Of Reference For Understanding Aikido?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
My frame of reference is martial and the the one place I don't see martial is in the ring.

In the ring I see skill, I see ability, I see sport. No martial.

Regards.G.



What are you talking about

Last edited by stan baker : 06-27-2011 at 09:24 PM.
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Old 06-28-2011, 05:27 AM   #77
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Re: What Is Your Frame Of Reference For Understanding Aikido?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well now, wouldn't that depend on what we are talking about? You'd have to be talking about specific things that are irrefutable or concepts that are known.
There are any number of ways, and any number of people who can judge us quite well. What's more, many times their judgment...of...us, will be agreed upon...by...us, once we are exposed.
Education is a good thing. Some people fear it, others welcome it. I've often found it helps us grow.
But judgment and education are not the same thing.

My point is that judgment per se isn't helpful and can be limiting, if you're too quick to give credence to someone who's very good at sounding authoritative and knowledgeable and loudly asserting that he is right. It's a paradox with pitfalls on either side: being less knowledgeable, how do you judge whether the "authority" passing judgment is qualified? There are some common-sense guidelines and some blatant bs flags, but a skilled manipulator can negotiate that minefield with ease. "Trust but verify" is probably the only sane way, and don't ever drink any koolade, no matter how many people tell you that it's tasty and good for you.
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Old 06-28-2011, 06:30 AM   #78
Mary Eastland
 
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Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,200
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Re: What Is Your Frame Of Reference For Understanding Aikido?

The orginal question is helpful in understanding the disconnect in this conversation.

What is your frame of reference for understanding Aikido?

If we each could define our frame of reference: with examples of say lineage...training...where we are now in Aikido ...it might be helpful.
Aikido means different things to different people. To try to have conversations assuming that it means the same things to all of us keeps leading us to the same place.

I think an Aikido site is an excellent place for authortive people who say they have the answer to dominate because a lot of people who train in aikido have no interest in having power over another or in being right even on an internet board.

So the same conversation keeps happening. Some of the players change but after a while we realize that resistance prolongs the attack. Relaxing, laughing at myself and training are better responses for me.
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Old 06-28-2011, 08:39 AM   #79
chillzATL
Location: ATL
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Re: What Is Your Frame Of Reference For Understanding Aikido?

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
These days everything I do and think of in regards to aikido is framed around IS/IP skills. Coming from a lineage very similar to Keith, whom you quoted, I now see the point behind pretty much everything we do.
this thread is listing horribly...

To expand on my original post.

I've also found yard work to be a great frame of reference for my aikido as it is today. Mainly because of the ample opportunities to work on the IS conditioning. Digging post holes, throwing sod, planting (digging of any sort really), even mowing the lawn (sometimes),are good repetative ways to work on that conditioning and it translates right over to the mat. As with all this stuff, the details are in how you do it, but once you have a good idea of that it's hard to not do those things and feel the difference compared to how you would do them otherwise, especially a few days later. I've never been one to enjoy that sort of stuff on its own, but I find myself enjoying that time a lot more now.
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Old 06-28-2011, 09:30 AM   #80
jonreading
 
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Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
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Re: What Is Your Frame Of Reference For Understanding Aikido?

My frame of reference is the martial paradigm. In addition to the technical information we have from aikido, I also often find many other arts contribute instructional information relevant to aikido. In experience, I have found more good aikido from people with martial backgrounds than without; so for now, I believe the martial paradigm and subsequent education is the better direction for me.

That said, I want to clarify that "martial" is simply a reference to the origin of an educational system. I read a couple posts that danced around the elephant in the room; badly doing martial arts does not make martial arts bad. I think aikido is infested with people who walk the fine line of non-functional aikido and crappy jujutsu. We validate these people's aikido when we allow that behavior to persist.

Dan talked about simply expecting a competent aikido person to effect technique. Not just technique on a colluding uke or on a fellow dojo-mate, anyone. I believe this is a reasonable expectation. As stewards of aikido, I believe we are expected to discern between functional and non-functional aikido and apply constant pressure to increase competency.

I also believe that there is a form to aikido. I think we have moved away from the correct form in practice and adopted a "do your own thing" perspective. I thing there is some truth in stating that aikido techniques no longer contain aiki. I think a followup question to the statement is did the forms have aiki at some earlier point in time?

Personally, I believe that aikido is in the process of recreating itself to bring back some of what was removed. From a martial perspective I believe I may be able to access references and information to help me re-create some of the aiki stuff that was lost.
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Old 06-28-2011, 10:19 PM   #81
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
Location: Peterborough, NH
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 653
United_States
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Re: What Is Your Frame Of Reference For Understanding Aikido?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
My point is that judgment per se isn't helpful and can be limiting, if you're too quick to give credence to someone who's very good at sounding authoritative and knowledgeable and loudly asserting that he is right. It's a paradox with pitfalls on either side: being less knowledgeable, how do you judge whether the "authority" passing judgment is qualified? There are some common-sense guidelines and some blatant bs flags, but a skilled manipulator can negotiate that minefield with ease. "Trust but verify" is probably the only sane way, and don't ever drink any koolade, no matter how many people tell you that it's tasty and good for you.
Today my Aikido was judged by another aikidoka during ato-gaiko after class. I was trying to put kaiten-nage on him and he judged my technique... insufficient. It's not about "sounding" authoritative, it's not about "being less knowledgeable", it's not about "authority"... my technique didn't work. I've got something to learn there. I don't think anybody's suggesting anything else. IHTBF, and when it's felt, there's not really an argument any more, is there?
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