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Old 06-19-2011, 12:06 AM   #26
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Aikido wrist catching?

Quote:
Jon Frashier wrote: View Post
Thanks everyone for the advice. Yes I meant that I "can't", and Yes I am looking into Self-Defense. Lately I have been feeling that Judo is more realistic in terms of defense but I feel as I said like it is hard on my body and I don't want to have to worry about injuries and being out of work at any juncture. I have always been interested in Aikido because I am not a fighter, or an attacker, and it feels like it would be a good match for me in terms of my personality and I like the idea of being able to relax and it calming me, as I'm pretty stressed frequently. I'm just worried about its practicality in terms of self-defense in the real world. I've gone to aikidofaqs and read some of the stories there but everything I'm reading sounds great but I don't want to have to wait years until I can use any of this stuff and as I said I'm worried about the art as it relies alot on wrist locks. I definitely appreciate everyone's info and help and advice and I'm definitely taking it to heart.

Jon
Hi John,

This post changes a lot of things imo.

If you want Budo, study Budo.

If you want Self Defence skills find a reputable Reality Based Self Defence school. Before you even do that read this website - http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/

If you want realism in terms of self defence you need to understand a lot more than just physical techniques and neither typical Judo nor Aikido training will give you what you need in these areas.

The mindsets trained in most Aikido or Sport Judo are very different to the survival mindset you need for self defence.

Best regards

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 06-19-2011, 12:07 AM   #27
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Re: Aikido wrist catching?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
This is simply not correct
I have never met anyone actually ...in...koryu (not just iai) who would ever make that statement.
Aikido™ has nothing in it to give a student a comprehensive overview of Koryu: the movement, maai, weapons handling, intent, angles, and approach are much different.
Nor is it going to give you a comprehensive overview of aikijujutsu.
And Aikido™ doesn't function like koryu jujutsu.

Dan
Very well said.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 06-19-2011, 07:03 PM   #28
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Re: Aikido wrist catching?

Quote:
Jon Frashier wrote: View Post
Some interesting responses. I most definitely appreciate the responses and the advice. I want to do a martial art because:

A.) I enjoy and am fascinated/interested in the martial arts.
B.) They help de-stress oneself and focus on things other thing real life if only for a bit.

C.)Self-Defense is a practical afterthought.

Some of the things I have said are being blown a bit out of proportion. I am not a basket case sorry guys. I'm a normal guy, living in a normal area of town, living a normal life at a normal job. My questions are more catered towards those with more experience in the art than myself and with the idea that I am currently studying both but I don't have time to continue to do so and a choice has to be made. I was and am leaning towards aikido I just thought it might be nice to get more info to make a better more educated decision from people who know more than myself so that A, B and C are somewhat covered/quantified in a sense.
It sure would be nice if you could quantify things that way, wouldn't it? It would make your decision very easy, and you could rest secure in the knowledge that you'd made the best choice. But you're not going to be able to quantify your A, B and C that way -- they're just too dependent on an individual's personality and situation.

Quote:
Jon Frashier wrote: View Post
PS, Sure I haven't been injured but being worried about a future injury and not being able to work I believe is somewhat practical and does not make me out to be a hypochondriac.
It doesn't make you a hypochondriac, but injury and disability is something that happens to everyone, no matter how careful they are. Not just people who study martial arts, but people just doing ordinary everyday activities. What kind of work do you do? Is there some reason why you need to be especially concerned about injury, more so than the average white collar worker?
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Old 06-20-2011, 10:07 AM   #29
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Re: Aikido wrist catching?

To the OP: I think it would be helpful to reframe the question. i.e. Is it possible to deal with a skilled boxer using Aikido?

If you think of the boxer's hands as weapons, then you deal with them as you would other weapons. You want to be either outside the effective range of the weapon or inside the effective range of the weapon. If you are outside you are safe for the time being, but you can't do anything to bring about an end to the conflict. If you can get inside then you can bring things to a conclusion. And there are plenty of things you can do, with Aikido technique, once you are inside. Getting inside is the tricky part, but not as tricky as trying to catch the punch of a skilled boxer.
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Old 06-21-2011, 02:33 AM   #30
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Re: Aikido wrist catching?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
This is simply not correct
I have never met anyone actually ...in...koryu (not just iai) who would ever make that statement.
Aikido™ has nothing in it to give a student a comprehensive overview of Koryu: the movement, maai, weapons handling, intent, angles, and approach are much different.
Nor is it going to give you a comprehensive overview of aikijujutsu.
And Aikido™ doesn't function like koryu jujutsu.

Dan
Koryu is a big field Dan.

So let's just cut it down to Koryu Jujutsu. Then, lets take a closer look at my statement and see that I specified Technical syllabus. I have seen very few physical techniques done in any Koryu Jujutsu, that are not grossly covered in either Judo or Aikido. I say grossly, because as I said in my statement, overview (overview:general review or summery of a subject).

So that is what I mean when I said: "Aikido and Judo are both Gendai Budo-modern Japanese martial arts. Between the two, you'll get a pretty comprehensive overview of many Koryu (Japanese old schools) Jujutsu/Aikijujutsu technical syllabus."

I said comprehensive because as I stated above-There are very few physical techniques in Koryu jujutsu that are not covered in Judo or Aikido. I said overview because there are indeed many smaller details that differ, or are specific to different Koryu Jujutsu, these details often differ from Koryu to Koryu as well.

Also it is quite clear that both Aikido and Judo are gendai. What is it that you are arguing Dan? I'm not saying that Aikido or Judo are koryu. I'm not saying that Aikido and Judo teach anywhere near the range that all of Koryu teaches. I'm simply saying the between the two, they generally cover most of the physical techniques that you will see in Koryu Jujutsu.

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Old 06-21-2011, 06:49 AM   #31
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Re: Aikido wrist catching?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I said comprehensive because as I stated above-There are very few physical techniques in Koryu jujutsu that are not covered in Judo or Aikido.
This I think is true only if looking at the outwardly shape of the techniques?

For example: My aikido teacher also teaches Tenshin shoden katori shinto ryu. And their use of yin/yang makes outwardly similar looking techniques very special/different. It looks the like. But when explained it falls apart.

Well I think it's not the shape, but the "little details" wich are important. And the use of aiki in aikido (as I know it) also is such a "detail" which makes aikido itself "special". So I don't think aikido gives an overview but just a very special view.
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Old 06-21-2011, 07:49 AM   #32
DH
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Re: Aikido wrist catching?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
What is it that you are arguing Dan?
I'm not arguing. You presented an argument. I responded to your argument:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
Aikido and Judo are both Gendai Budo-modern Japanese martial arts. Between the two, you'll get a pretty comprehensive overview of many Koryu (Japanese old schools) Jujutsu/Aikijujutsu technical syllabus.
This is simply not correct
I have never met anyone actually ...in...koryu (not just iai) who would ever make that statement.
Aikido™ has nothing in it to give a student a comprehensive overview of Koryu: the movement, maai, weapons handling, intent, angles, and approach are much different.
Nor is it going to give you a comprehensive overview of aikijujutsu.
And Aikido™ doesn't function like koryu jujutsu.

Dan
I don't know why I need to repeat it. And hey, I am not saying good, bad, or indifferent. We have been over this before with your theories on weapon work you developed in your garage. You were unmoved by the opinions expressed by several koryu people then, why would I want a repeat.
Your new expanded edit isn't relevant either.
Quote:
I'm simply saying the between the two, they generally cover most of the physical techniques that you will see in Koryu Jujutsu.
No they don't.
To be clear what makes you think you have seen a single koryu's technique, much less a broad enough view to comment on a collected work? For the most part what you see in embu footage and you tube is not what is really going on in the first place. Which make an opinion on "all koryu" sort of...moot. Menkyo's qualify their opinion's when discussing other koryu. Wy, because when they don't they get bit-with fact, not anger or politics.
There was an interesting read on E-budo (back when it was active and worth reading) when a Menkyo in one ryu apologized for writing about the theory of another koryu, then meeting that arts headmaster. He went to great lengths to explain his own hubris in thinking a) he was exposed to the real art from viewing anything b) that his ideas had been so off base that even he was shocked.

To interject some humor. I have discussed and/or heard Koryu teachers on the floor, going out of their way to point out just how what we were doing has no relation to Judo or aikido. And how THAT type of movement had leaked its way into various koryu and had to be eradicated, that it is antithetical to everything in their koryu. After, these experiences, somehow, it just doesn't make me interested in debating that point with you, Chris.

Dan
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Old 06-21-2011, 08:25 AM   #33
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Re: Aikido wrist catching?

Aaaaaand another derail, right on schedule...
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Old 06-21-2011, 09:05 AM   #34
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Re: Aikido wrist catching?

Yes -- let's please try to keep on topic, folks. Please start a new thread when your discussion veers from the original topic.

Thank you,

-- Jun

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Old 06-21-2011, 10:20 AM   #35
DH
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Re: Aikido wrist catching?

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
The television show "Mythbusters" investigated and tested the story of catching a live blade between the palms. They used robotic arms and ballistic gel hands for their experiments and with all sort of trick electronic devices and switches, they were unable to do it. They visited a San Francisco area Ninjutsu instructor who demonstrated the catch with one of his students. As I watched the human demonstration it appeared to me (cynic that I am) that the student wasn't delivering a killing blow that would split the body, but rather making a very controlled shomenuchi cut that stopped at the point where the palms would meet the blade. As I recall, they labeled the myth as "plausible", but very unlikely to actually happen. My view is that it was a terrific parlor trick that requires two people to have precise timing and a lot of time on their hands, along with an iaito.
Like all of these things a great deal depends on who the puncher who's wrist is going to supposedly be grabbed, or who the guy is who wielding the sword. There is a very wide gap of capability in most dojo I have been in, much more out in the public.

Tricks
There is another trick with the swordsman cutting an arrow out of the air:
*The arrow is aimed above his head so he can follow the trajectory, and not aimed... at him, at no time was he in danger.
*There are just as many ki trick demo's (taking ki out of and back into people) based on tricks, and others that are pure mind game nonsense.
*Cutting a watermelon off the belly-dulll sword, needles placed in the last 3/4" so the blade hits the needles, dull sword makes more explosive cut.

All that said, how many people really know how to punch, and fewer still those who (beyond their own imagination) really know how to use weapons. It's no small wonder that you can convince budo people that you can grab a wrist out of the air and stop a sword between your hands...good grief!

Wrist grabbing and a more positive spin. Why do it at all?
You can use it as a graduated drill to enter and move, working on foot work, distance, timing, placement, lack of fear for a newbie, etc. It doesn't have to be empty, or even fake. It helps if everyone involved is self aware and the more experienced teach the limits of such things to newbies. There are ways to drill to connect and control and from that point have some more realistic potentials.

The potentials can be anywhere from stupid, to well reasoned, depending on the teacher. Sadly alot of B.S. get passed on down, just as much, if not more than the real deal. A teacher, is not a promise of excellence or your success.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 06-21-2011 at 10:35 AM.
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Old 06-21-2011, 10:21 AM   #36
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Re: Aikido wrist catching?

To the OP:
As Don pointed out Judo is a young mans sport. It is hard on the body, and constant randori will take it's toll rather quickly.

When talking about being martially effective you must first think about your martial context. If you are planning on fighting in a ring your context is very different than it would be if you are going to be fighting for you life if a criminal breaks into your house.

People tend to think of boxing, wrestling and Judo type throwing first when they think of martial ability. These areas are all fine and well but pretty limited, and probably not the most important areas of study when thinking about the contexts you will likely find yourself in, in a fight.

Some people have already touched on this in the thread. The big areas of self defense lay outside of boxing, wresting and throwing skills. Think in terms of the big self defense picture

Surprise- How aware and alert are you in your day to day life? Do you pay attention when walking down the street, are you aware of what is normal or abnormal goings on around your house? Do you know the bad parts of town,and how to stay away from them?

Weapons- Do you know how to use a weapon? Do you own a weapon? Could you quickly find a weapon to use and have the ability to use it in a random situation (using things like fire extinguishers, brooms, kitchen knifes, things you can throw etc)?

Numbers- Do you have the basic idea of how to deal with multiple people trying to attack you? Do you know where you should position yourself and how to find escape?

Environment- Could you fight in the dark? Do you know the layout of your house really well? Could you get to the police station, hospital, or other safe places quickly?

These areas are the major areas of martial arts. Things like boxing, wrestling and throwing take a major back seat to these when it comes to real self defense. Most Aikido schools will at least touch on these areas (environment much less), where as a Judo school will teach you mostly about Throwing and Grappling technique as it is used in the controlled environment of sport.

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Old 06-21-2011, 02:06 PM   #37
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Re: Aikido wrist catching?

Thank you for all of the info guys! Appreciate it all! Chris was going to ask you, well your post made alot of sense and well your previous posts have mentioned the idea of resistance being needed in modern day aikido to be effective. The Aikido Dojo I train at even though it is supposed to be Tomiki says that they dont' use any resistance at all and the mere repitition over time should be enough to spark your sub conscious to react when its needed. I'm wonder what you think about that and how I can go about speaking with my Instructor to try to implement a little bit of resistance into the training. Jon
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Old 06-21-2011, 05:45 PM   #38
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Re: Aikido wrist catching?

Quote:
Jon Frashier wrote: View Post
Thank you for all of the info guys! Appreciate it all! Chris was going to ask you, well your post made alot of sense and well your previous posts have mentioned the idea of resistance being needed in modern day aikido to be effective. The Aikido Dojo I train at even though it is supposed to be Tomiki says that they dont' use any resistance at all and the mere repitition over time should be enough to spark your sub conscious to react when its needed. I'm wonder what you think about that and how I can go about speaking with my Instructor to try to implement a little bit of resistance into the training. Jon
If you've never had a conversation in French, but you've read books about French, and understand some words and the structure of the language, taken a few classes, how well do you think you'll do the first time you encounter a native French speaker who is trying to have a conversation with you?

Repetition alone won't do it. You've got to practice "speaking the language" of Aikido over and over, in unexpected non-cooperative ways. No matter how much you study a subject, the actual doing is always different.

Your teachers Dojo is his, it's not up to you to try and change that. His opinions, I'm sure, come from years of experience, and he has a vision for the kind of training he wants to do.

If you want to add resistance, get some Dojo mates, friends, like minded people who want to do the same thing, and add resistance to your training, on your own, outside of class.

Remember there is no one correct way, experiment and find your way. I wish you the best of luck on your journey! If you want any ideas about drills/ sparring practices you could try, shoot me an email, I've got lots!

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Old 06-21-2011, 08:28 PM   #39
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Re: Aikido wrist catching?

Quote:
Jon Frashier wrote: View Post
The Aikido Dojo I train at even though it is supposed to be Tomiki says that they dont' use any resistance at all and the mere repitition over time should be enough to spark your sub conscious to react when its needed. I'm wonder what you think about that and how I can go about speaking with my Instructor to try to implement a little bit of resistance into the training. Jon
Wow its weird to hear of a Tomiki dojo that does not use resistance randori as a training method. That is actually one of the hallmarks of Tomiki's method of Aikido practice.

Jon, I am not sure who your Sensei may be, but a little bit of study on the history of Tomiki Sensei's Aikido will reveal the logic of the randori method and why resistance is important to understand why things work when they work. Some articles on that can be found here - http://tomiki.org/tomikiaikido.html and here - http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi1.html.

This should be enough to consider your request, if in fact he calls what he does Tomiki Aikido.

Just a thought.

Best
LC

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Old 06-22-2011, 07:08 AM   #40
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Re: Aikido wrist catching?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
To the OP:
As Don pointed out Judo is a young mans sport. It is hard on the body, and constant randori will take it's toll rather quickly.

When talking about being martially effective you must first think about your martial context. If you are planning on fighting in a ring your context is very different than it would be if you are going to be fighting for you life if a criminal breaks into your house.

People tend to think of boxing, wrestling and Judo type throwing first when they think of martial ability. These areas are all fine and well but pretty limited, and probably not the most important areas of study when thinking about the contexts you will likely find yourself in, in a fight.

Some people have already touched on this in the thread. The big areas of self defense lay outside of boxing, wresting and throwing skills. Think in terms of the big self defense picture

Surprise- How aware and alert are you in your day to day life? Do you pay attention when walking down the street, are you aware of what is normal or abnormal goings on around your house? Do you know the bad parts of town,and how to stay away from them?

Weapons- Do you know how to use a weapon? Do you own a weapon? Could you quickly find a weapon to use and have the ability to use it in a random situation (using things like fire extinguishers, brooms, kitchen knifes, things you can throw etc)?

Numbers- Do you have the basic idea of how to deal with multiple people trying to attack you? Do you know where you should position yourself and how to find escape?

Environment- Could you fight in the dark? Do you know the layout of your house really well? Could you get to the police station, hospital, or other safe places quickly?

These areas are the major areas of martial arts. Things like boxing, wrestling and throwing take a major back seat to these when it comes to real self defense. Most Aikido schools will at least touch on these areas (environment much less), where as a Judo school will teach you mostly about Throwing and Grappling technique as it is used in the controlled environment of sport.
While I agree with the majority of your post. I really don't think any martial art adequately prepares you for a 'real life' encounter. I've trained in or visited more martial arts and martial art schools then I can even count. Everyone has obvious and easy to identify holes in their training and philosophy. It's just a matter of what angle you look at it.

My advice? Don't train for self defense. Train to be effective at what you are doing. I train in BJJ and Judo to be good at grappling (throwing people down and choking them). I train in boxing to be good at not being punched while punching people. I train in firearms to be a good marksman.

All of these are skills that could lend themselves to a self defense situation. However, the mistake that many (and myself) have made in the past and currently make is to train for self defense. Self defense is a short term goal that can not be reached without long term experience. It's a moving goal with the goalposts set anywhere anyone can imagine. It is a target that preys on your fears and typically not in reality. Name a martial art and someone will just as quickly be able to name a valid reason why that martial art fails to provide proper training for self defense.

So instead, do what you get enjoyment from, be honest in what skills you are developing, and learn to accept and grow from experience.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 06-22-2011, 09:20 AM   #41
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Re: Aikido wrist catching?

Thanks for all of the useful info guys! I also have an update. I have decided to go with Aikido. I had a yellow belt in Judo but after going more to aikido and talking to everyone it just seems like the right decision for me. When I go to do Aikido, I enjoy everyones company, I don't feel everyone has to be competitive with me, I don't look at the clock, and I relax and I actually enjoy it.

I also wanted to say that apparently I found out that we indeed do do a little bit of resistance and randori once we've got all the basics down.

I have a question though, I'm actually training in Texas now but soon will be back in Albuquerque and may need to find a new place to train. There are so many different dojos, it's hard to decide. I wanted to know if other forms of Aikido also do "chaining"? I really like this idea and the concept behind it.

Thanks again all of you!

Jon
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Old 06-22-2011, 10:29 AM   #42
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Re: Aikido wrist catching?

Quote:
Jon Frashier wrote: View Post
I don't look at the clock, and I relax and I actually enjoy it.
This is probably the most important thing!

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Old 06-23-2011, 07:44 PM   #43
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Re: Aikido wrist catching?

Jon
Aikido is a great art, I don't even do it anymore, I do BJJ, but I still think about aikido all the time.
Sure Aikido ain't that practical, but I tell you this...

How many hours do you train a week? 3, 4, 5, 6 whatever. How many time have you been attacked? (insert answer). How many times are you likely to be attacked? Well that depends on what you do, places you visit, time of day/night etc.

As the years pass, and I don't know how old you are, but due to maturity we put ourselves less and less in the way of danger, from robbers etc...

The point being as time goes by you will have trained for hundreds, if not thousands of hours, and if we train with self defence at the fore of our mind, you are doing all this training for what, as the years pass, is a decreasing chance of being able to use it.

To that end we must all train without the thought of Self Defense or else we will be bitterly disappointed in 20 years when we've never been able to apply it.
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