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Old 06-15-2011, 12:09 PM   #176
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Isn't that just a bit too glibly dismissive, Graham? Surely if something is martially valid, this can be demonstrated, no? It's a copout to say, "Oh, you're just ignorant" -- if something is martially valid, can't that be demonstrated?
Depends on your version of "martial"...... and somebody else's, it's what I'm always being informed by a number of people on this site, but you know me Mary.....
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Old 06-15-2011, 12:10 PM   #177
john.burn
 
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Not for me John, when you mentioned a park I thought it was for other purposes fitting your requirements, sorry..... How many people do you know in The T/S world?
I'll ignore the first comment, but the police did seem them training lol. Not living in London I wasn't there.

I don't know anyone in the T/S world very much, and let me make this clear - I'm not saying no one in that branch does NOT have these skills. It's not a training methodology that interests me too much, I have no competitiveness in me, ask my old sports teachers. Having said that, I do have some video's of Tomiki. I just dislike sports and competition immensely and always will - it's the main thing that drew me to aikido after loosing interest in Judo and Karate as taught in this country - sports.

Best Regards,
John

www.chishindojo.co.uk
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Old 06-15-2011, 02:49 PM   #178
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
John Burn wrote: View Post
I'll ignore the first comment, but the police did seem them training lol. Not living in London I wasn't there.

I don't know anyone in the T/S world very much, and let me make this clear - I'm not saying no one in that branch does NOT have these skills. It's not a training methodology that interests me too much, I have no competitiveness in me, ask my old sports teachers. Having said that, I do have some video's of Tomiki. I just dislike sports and competition immensely and always will - it's the main thing that drew me to aikido after loosing interest in Judo and Karate as taught in this country - sports.
That's fine John, whatever suits you. We just don't talk of it in I/P I/S ?terms, but more from a down to earth point of view. I tend to view it as inner core strength developed in many ways, mine happens to come from Isometric/Isotonic exercise that's all. Did you find anything on the net regarding this? It is quite interesting when you get into it....
I've been at it for years.....
T
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Old 06-15-2011, 04:04 PM   #179
john.burn
 
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
That's fine John, whatever suits you. We just don't talk of it in I/P I/S ?terms, but more from a down to earth point of view. I tend to view it as inner core strength developed in many ways, mine happens to come from Isometric/Isotonic exercise that's all. Did you find anything on the net regarding this? It is quite interesting when you get into it....
I've been at it for years.....
T
Well... I get what you're saying Tony and I was very skeptical until I grabbed someone who had it as well. Now, I have a lot of friends who are very experienced body workers, sports injury therapists and Bowen therapists... They will confirm with no shadow of a doubt this is not the same thing as what you're talkng about with inner core strength however you get it be it from isotonics, pilates or yoga. The Bowen therapists comment was it changed his whole thought processes on what he thought, and how you can control your body. And... Im a complete beginner at this but could demonstrate it enough to make him question what he knew of anatomical things, and trust me, he knows a lot. That tells me there's something in this.

Anyways, I'm bowing out now because nothing anyone says will change your mind.

Enjoy what you don't know

Best Regards,
John

www.chishindojo.co.uk
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Old 06-15-2011, 04:08 PM   #180
hughrbeyer
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Joe

I can't agree more.
I reckon if Numata Sensei had stepped off the mat those guys would have just carried on with their ukemi exercise.
Joe, Henry-- Which is a pretty good demonstration of the futility of posting videos. What we each see is what we have the eyes to see, and there's no way to reconcile the differences until we have Numata Sensei here to put our hands on.
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Old 06-15-2011, 04:10 PM   #181
hughrbeyer
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Yes Hugh I do study the art of peace.

Where we differ is probably on many things including 'martial'

The sword of life life quote? I guarantee we differ on it's meaning.

Implications of not martially valid just shows me anothers ignorance, lack of understanding.
Huh. My post was actually intended to be an invitation to a conversation, not a put-down. If it came across that way, my apologies.
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Old 06-15-2011, 04:21 PM   #182
Hellis
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Joe, Henry-- Which is a pretty good demonstration of the futility of posting videos. What we each see is what we have the eyes to see, and there's no way to reconcile the differences until we have Numata Sensei here to put our hands on.
Hugh

In my 55 yrs of Aikido I have trained with - and I don't mean the odd weekend -- Kenshiro Abbe - Tadashi Abe - M Noro - N Tamura - M Nakazono - H Kobyashi - TK Chiba - H Tada - H Ichamura - J Nakazono - K Williams the best ever western Aikidoka.
If they had done what I saw in Numata's Sensei's video I would never have trained with them again - we see different things - may I respectfully suggest ``SpecSavers ``.
When I see videos like that I am pleased that my end is near.

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

Last edited by Hellis : 06-15-2011 at 04:24 PM.
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Old 06-15-2011, 04:33 PM   #183
Mike Sigman
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
John Burn wrote: View Post
Anyways, I'm bowing out now because nothing anyone says will change your mind.
I think it's often much more fun to NOT change someone's mind. Using just the easy example of "groundpath" and "peng jin" from back in the 90's on forums like Empty Flower, the Tai Chi Chuan Forum, Aikido L, and things like that, it was more interesting to reading what an idiot I was for saying things like that when they knew better.

Ten or fifteen years later some of them are ten or fifteen years behind where they could have been, regardless of whom they liked or disliked for suggesting they weren't as knowledgeable as they thought. Who wins?

IF Ikeda Sensei hadn't been publicly encouraging the investigation into practical usage of ki, a few years back, none of these conversations would be happening on AikiWeb today and Wagstaffes would be wagging their staffs over all. Be happy things are where they are.

Mike
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Old 06-15-2011, 05:05 PM   #184
aikilouis
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

I agree that we are probably living a historical moment for aikido. Even though the last of O Sensei's direct students fade slowly away, the quarrels of the following generation, that led to insurmontable ostracism are now weaker. The aikido landscape is more diverse than ever, but the conditions are perhaps more favourable than ever to explore the Founder's legacy with new eyes.

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Old 06-15-2011, 07:36 PM   #185
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
John Burn wrote: View Post
Well... I get what you're saying Tony and I was very skeptical until I grabbed someone who had it as well. Now, I have a lot of friends who are very experienced body workers, sports injury therapists and Bowen therapists... They will confirm with no shadow of a doubt this is not the same thing as what you're talkng about with inner core strength however you get it be it from isotonics, pilates or yoga. The Bowen therapists comment was it changed his whole thought processes on what he thought, and how you can control your body. And... Im a complete beginner at this but could demonstrate it enough to make him question what he knew of anatomical things, and trust me, he knows a lot. That tells me there's something in this.

Anyways, I'm bowing out now because nothing anyone says will change your mind.

Enjoy what you don't know
John, why is it you insist that I don't know? If as you say you have never done "aikido" against an uncooperative uke/partner/player as in Judo or T/S aikido or you don't like doing it because you are non competitive, how can you know if I don't know? That's as daft a statement as you can not demonstrate to me what it is you are on about, the same as Desperate Dan is unwilling to put up a video as we won't be able to see it.... only "feel it" A bit like saying oh I know electricity is there and depending on the output will you be able to feel it!! We can't see it unless it is bolt form during thunder storms etc. We have electricity in our bodies that belts around at light speed and we use it constantly every millisecond of our lives. It is produced by chemical reaction as you may well know. It travels through our bodies in nerves etc, makes our muscles move, twitch bla bla bla. Try out isometrics for a few months and you'll get to feel it. Isometrics have been used for hundreds if not thousands of years by martial artist in one form or another. Check out sanchin do in goju ryu karate, they use it for body conditioning..... You see I know nothing according to your statement. Typical of a lot of so called traditionalists.You may have friends that are knowledgeable and they may concur with you , but lets see them demonstrate it against a non cooperative fighter......
Many say we T/S people are heretics and we don't practice "aikido" just because Mr Ueshiba said you must not compete for one reason or another, more to do with philosophical/religious reasons, yet he cross trained and competed/ fought. If that is what you like to practice, something that resembles a martial art, but is in fact empty of any real substance, fine, and if that is the case, carry on and get your "real" substance from DD who is an unknown entity? Personally I'm glad I got my basic teaching from those of more down to earth motivations and outlook, including some traditionalist and other people from different MA who are more open minded and not secretive about what they do and can be checked out credential wise, plus it didn't cost an arm or a leg, or in many cases nothing as they did it for love of the art ...... As I do. Failing that, gut instinct....
Don't get caught in the park.....
T
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Old 06-15-2011, 07:39 PM   #186
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Hugh

In my 55 yrs of Aikido I have trained with - and I don't mean the odd weekend -- Kenshiro Abbe - Tadashi Abe - M Noro - N Tamura - M Nakazono - H Kobyashi - TK Chiba - H Tada - H Ichamura - J Nakazono - K Williams the best ever western Aikidoka.
If they had done what I saw in Numata's Sensei's video I would never have trained with them again - we see different things - may I respectfully suggest ``SpecSavers ``.
When I see videos like that I am pleased that my end is near.

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/
I hope not Sensei.....
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Old 06-15-2011, 07:42 PM   #187
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I think it's often much more fun to NOT change someone's mind. Using just the easy example of "groundpath" and "peng jin" from back in the 90's on forums like Empty Flower, the Tai Chi Chuan Forum, Aikido L, and things like that, it was more interesting to reading what an idiot I was for saying things like that when they knew better.

Ten or fifteen years later some of them are ten or fifteen years behind where they could have been, regardless of whom they liked or disliked for suggesting they weren't as knowledgeable as they thought. Who wins?

IF Ikeda Sensei hadn't been publicly encouraging the investigation into practical usage of ki, a few years back, none of these conversations would be happening on AikiWeb today and Wagstaffes would be wagging their staffs over all. Be happy things are where they are.

Mike
Good name eh Mike, be careful what you do with your staff, could get nasty....
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Old 06-16-2011, 05:24 AM   #188
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Why the need to convince the other that one's more right than the other? That 'their' aikido is superior to...whatever.

I strongly believe that a teacher ultimately gets the students he deserves and implicitly the student finds the teacher he deserves.
Many Aikidoka's have changed teachers in an attempt to find confirmation to what they believe is 'good' Aikido. For years they may practise and at some day encounter someone that adjusts their view of what good Aikido is and decide to pursue that particular road.
This is what i think 'finding your way'...

In the whole process what others think is completely irrelevant. You do what you believe is best and do not try to impose your opinion onto others. But an opinion you may off course have

When asked for you opinion it is a call of (good) judgement whether or not to do so. Pick your fight.

Suffice it to say many Aikido styles/forms exist, choose wisely

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 06-16-2011, 05:43 AM   #189
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
Why the need to convince the other that one's more right than the other? That 'their' aikido is superior to...whatever.

I strongly believe that a teacher ultimately gets the students he deserves and implicitly the student finds the teacher he deserves.
Many Aikidoka's have changed teachers in an attempt to find confirmation to what they believe is 'good' Aikido. For years they may practise and at some day encounter someone that adjusts their view of what good Aikido is and decide to pursue that particular road.
This is what i think 'finding your way'...

In the whole process what others think is completely irrelevant. You do what you believe is best and do not try to impose your opinion onto others. But an opinion you may off course have

When asked for you opinion it is a call of (good) judgement whether or not to do so. Pick your fight.

Suffice it to say many Aikido styles/forms exist, choose wisely
Oh, I will, I will........
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Old 06-16-2011, 08:36 AM   #190
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Oh, I will, I will........
No, you won't. You already did

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 06-16-2011, 08:55 AM   #191
sakumeikan
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Joe

I can't agree more.
I reckon if Numata Sensei had stepped off the mat those guys would have just carried on with their ukemi exercise.

How come we never see Chiba Sensei do that stuff

Henry Ellis

http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/
Hi Henry,
Do you think anybody really asks that question concerning T.K.C?
Too many people are seeing /believe in the Emperors New Clothes[Hans Christian Anderson/Danny Kaye.
Cheers, Joe.
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Old 06-16-2011, 10:05 AM   #192
DH
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Hi Henry,
Do you think anybody really asks that question concerning T.K.C?
Too many people are seeing /believe in the Emperors New Clothes[Hans Christian Anderson/Danny Kaye.
Cheers, Joe.
I simply cannot believe anyone is going on and on about Chiba as someone great. I mean, okay he's got pretty decent aikido, but one of the greats? Come one guys. He wouldn't list himself as great either.
And for the naysayers. Chiba, Ikeda, and Saotome know what I am doing. Each has noted the changes in certain students and has told them they needed to keep training this. One has noticed the change in so many people that he has asked to meet me.
Why any of this causes such a stir is amazing to me. If you don't like it fine. Have a nice life, but it is becoming a movement within the art, with more and more people realizing it ...is...Aikido.

You can't logically (not that logic has stopped anyone here) holler about "each being let alone to do what they want"...and then bitching when a whole bunch of teachers and students are excited to be switching over and doing something you're not. They were all where you are. They are not stupid, and yes...they know the difference. You can't explain away Ikeda's decades on the mats and tell him he doesn't get it. You cannot explain away Gleasons 45 yrs on the mats and tell him he is being conned. Who can tell Ledyard he can't tell the difference between what he was doing and what he has now felt? Now add other SHihan and a host of mid level teachers. How are you going to explain away their own teachers feeling the difference ...in them.
You can't. When you try, it just sounds like sour grapes.
Worse when the responses degenerate into a level equal to school yard name calling. This latest turn by a few people here, accusing those teaching Ip/aiki of immoral, and almost criminal, acts perpetrated on unsuspecting Aikido-ka -while oddly absurd- shouldn't be tolerated. The fact that it is, says something about the attitude of the community willing to accept it.
Hanna made a compelling point; that it is getting to be a bit much, that it seems its all we are hearing. Her and I have corresponded and I am divided on the issue myself. I don't like seeing people angry over it. But the exitement that many feel is also overwhelming to them. One Shihan said what I have heard echoed many times across the country and across the pond: "I feel I am finally catching on to my first love, what drew me to aikido in the first place. This is what I was hoping for in the art, why I went to Japan, and the art didn't deliver on its promise." For them it is a very profound experience they are going through and they are seeing how it can power their aikido. They are greatly enjoying that.
As one person said,
"Why does it have to be such a big deal?"
"Because it IS a big deal!"

So during this time, it is difficult for it not to be a topic of conversation since it is so very fundamental to the art itself.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 06-16-2011 at 10:19 AM.
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Old 06-16-2011, 10:22 AM   #193
DH
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Thankfully, we are having a hell of alot of fun doing it.
Without all the angst of talking about it!
Cheers
Dan
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Old 06-16-2011, 10:39 AM   #194
DH
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Oops, just got yelled at in e-mail.
I wrote:
Quote:
Worse when the responses degenerate into a level equal to school yard name calling. This latest turn by a few people here, accusing those teaching Ip/aiki of immoral, and almost criminal, acts perpetrated on unsuspecting Aikido-ka -while oddly absurd- shouldn't be tolerated. The fact that it is, says something about the attitude of the community willing to accept it.
To which I got
"Er...Dan, you haven't been reading the thread have you?"
"Well no, not really, no."
"What Tony and Graham are saying is NOT being tollerated by anyone, least of all us here in England!"

Er...Thank you guys. Sorry.
Dan
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Old 06-16-2011, 10:54 AM   #195
phitruong
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Worse when the responses degenerate into a level equal to school yard name calling. This latest turn by a few people here, accusing those teaching Ip/aiki of immoral, and almost criminal, acts perpetrated on unsuspecting Aikido-ka -while oddly absurd- shouldn't be tolerated. The fact that it is, says something about the attitude of the community willing to accept it.

Dan
the imply of the message that you delivered were that folks have spent years of their lives investing in a practice that doesn't worth much. another indirect message that folks also read "your teacher(s) either didn't understand the art or didn't have it in their art". and you expected what sort of reaction? and surprise by the various negative reactions?
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Old 06-16-2011, 11:01 AM   #196
Gorgeous George
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

For what it's worth, I spent my first couple of years of doing aikido the way Tony does it.
I finally realised i'd hit a brick wall: by doing what I was doing, I was not progressing, and I was never going to be able to do what those aikidoka I look up to can do.

So I started learning a different way - a way that made this quote of Koichi Tohei's make perfect sense:

'When someone uses power to throw you, there’s always something you can do to react or counter. But it’s a different story when the person isn’t doing anything in particular and you’re still getting thrown. I thought, “Wow, this is the real thing!”'.

And when I have the money, and with his permission, I would love to attend a Dan Harden seminar.
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Old 06-16-2011, 11:14 AM   #197
DH
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
the imply of the message that you delivered were that folks have spent years of their lives investing in a practice that doesn't worth much. another indirect message that folks also read "your teacher(s) either didn't understand the art or didn't have it in their art". and you expected what sort of reaction? and surprise by the various negative reactions?
Hi Phi
Actually it is the nature and quality of the few replies that are ourageous and are...if you will note, because it is worth noting....NOT typical of budo people. They are not well thought through or even logical.
Most budo people are sharp. Even when they disagree the debates are usually based on logic, are reasoned and at least make sense. Few take it to the level recently seen here.

How do you think so many are now out training this stuff? Because they based their analysis on logic and what was reasonable. It is no surprise what the outcome is. This is the essence of aikido and once felt, aikido people know it instantly. That's why the conversion rate is so damn high. For most, its more like..."Welcome home."
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 06-16-2011 at 11:21 AM.
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Old 06-16-2011, 11:45 AM   #198
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

I think people have entertained this Tony Wagstaffe troll for too long.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 06-16-2011, 11:51 AM   #199
phitruong
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Phi
Actually it is the nature and quality of the few replies that are ourageous and are...if you will note, because it is worth noting....NOT typical of budo people. They are not well thought through or even logical.
Most budo people are sharp. Even when they disagree the debates are usually based on logic, are reasoned and at least make sense. Few take it to the level recently seen here.

Dan
Dan, it's not the logics the motivated some of the responses. it's more in the domain of emotional, something more primal. those are difficult to deal with for folks who are in it as well as folks who are on the peripheral.
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Old 06-16-2011, 11:54 AM   #200
Gorgeous George
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
I think people have entertained this Tony Wagstaffe troll for too long.
I can't believe they've bothered talking to him for so long.
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