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Old 06-13-2011, 11:02 AM   #101
Chris Li
 
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Much less since the tenants of what I am teaching, pre-date most of the martial methods we see. It stands to reason it will cause angst among those who learned the martial arts from the outside...in.
Tony's sarcastic comment "I guess I have been doing everything wrong..." I actually I have heard from shihan, senior teachers and students alike. "I didn't know, that I didn't know..." as a regular occurance in my world. In fact, from so many teachers in different branchs of the art that I lost track. Finding out you never really got aiki after trying most of your life is tough on all of us. More so that so many teachers didn't know how to teach it.
New age...is paltry to the host of insults I get to listen to from Tony, and this after offering to host him for free and buy him dinner.
Liar
Manipulator,
con man
scam artist
charleton
snake oil salesman
Obviously all okay to say here, and any attempt at a defense lumps me in as "being the same." What is clear is that it is NOT okay to respond.
So, no thanks to what is loosely being called a discussion, and no thanks to any meeting.
Dan
Hey, where's my free dinner? Well, more of Dan for the rest of us .

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-13-2011, 11:15 AM   #102
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Much less since the tenants of what I am teaching, pre-date most of the martial methods we see. It stands to reason it will cause angst among those who learned the martial arts from the outside...in.
Tony's sarcastic comment "I guess I have been doing everything wrong..." I actually I have heard from shihan, senior teachers and students alike. "I didn't know, that I didn't know..." as a regular occurance in my world. In fact, from so many teachers in different branchs of the art that I lost track. Finding out you never really got aiki after trying most of your life is tough on all of us. More so that so many teachers didn't know how to teach it.
New age...is paltry to the host of insults I get to listen to from Tony, and this after offering to host him for free and buy him dinner.
Liar
Manipulator,
con man
scam artist
charleton
snake oil salesman
Obviously all okay to say here, and any attempt at a defense lumps me in as "being the same." What is clear is that it is NOT okay to respond.
So, no thanks to what is loosely being called a discussion, and no thanks to any meeting.
Dan
So who were your teachers Dan? I'm all ears........
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Old 06-13-2011, 11:15 AM   #103
DH
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Hey, where's my free dinner? Well, more of Dan for the rest of us .

Best,

Chris
Said in my best soup nazi voice. " No dinner for you!"
Besides, according to Tony, you and every other person who found value in what I am doing is stupid, gullible, ignorant...is an aiki bunny doesn't know aikido and is now....a disciple!
I guess you drank some kool- aid I had for sale.
see ya soon. I have new powdered mix in my shorts....wait...not what I meant...
Me
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Old 06-13-2011, 11:42 AM   #104
Hellis
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Gerardo Torres wrote: View Post
Is it possible that Abbe Sensei didn't possess enough information about ki or ki training that others had?

Regards,
Gerardo
"In the 1950s / 1960s we never discussed Ki - Abbe Sensei said it was being taught by correct application of technique - there was no need to keep on about Ki "

As I stated - we were taught Ki within our training just as we would with any other exercise - just didn't treat it as anything mystical.

Henry Ellis
http://kenshiroabbe.blogspot.com/
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Old 06-13-2011, 11:42 AM   #105
DH
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

It isn't mystical. The most interesting point remains on the table. The first and foremost notion of ki....was FOR strength. So, how did modern budo people so totally corrupt a concept they obviously don't understand.
Dan
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Old 06-13-2011, 12:00 PM   #106
hughrbeyer
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

This whole thread is reminding me of a saying we have in my part of the world: "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig."

Tony's got his mind made up and though I'd never suggest he might be a trifle pig-headed, I think even he'd admit to being just a bit stubborn. All these attempts to make him think different are not going to go anywhere. One day, he'll meet someone who has what Dan's been teaching. Until then you can slag away at each other, but why? Ya should be on the mat.
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Old 06-13-2011, 12:05 PM   #107
Budd
 
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Well, I think at this point the party lines of most detractors is "We already do that" or "It is fake" yet when actually called to go check it out or feel what's going on, there's always some excuse or reason why they can't.

Whatever - if you haven't figured out by either the discussions or the behind the scenes scurry of hundreds of people out there trying to play catch-up to one degree or another - then best wishes and good luck to you, there's nothing to see here.

Oh and another thing . . there's still value in comporting yourself as a gentleperson such that, it's easier to keep doors open with consideration and manners so that you have choices and options - rather than assuming that you are entitled to whatever selection on the menu strikes your interest at any given time. Everything has a cost - and it's not always about money. Credibility and respect are still valuable commodities that are worth cultivating.

Last edited by Budd : 06-13-2011 at 12:09 PM.
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Old 06-13-2011, 12:16 PM   #108
hughrbeyer
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Whatever - if you haven't figured out by either the discussions or the behind the scenes scurry of hundreds of people out there trying to play catch-up to one degree or another - then best wishes and good luck to you, there's nothing to see here.
You know, I think you're right. We need to take the old kobudo attitude towards this.

Nothing to see here. Move along. Dan? Who? Oh, that guy. Never mind him. You're doing good stuff, right? Just keep doing it. We'll be busy over here...
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Old 06-13-2011, 12:21 PM   #109
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
This whole thread is reminding me of a saying we have in my part of the world: "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig."

Tony's got his mind made up and though I'd never suggest he might be a trifle pig-headed, I think even he'd admit to being just a bit stubborn. All these attempts to make him think different are not going to go anywhere. One day, he'll meet someone who has what Dan's been teaching. Until then you can slag away at each other, but why? Ya should be on the mat.
Oink, Oink, how do you know I already have?
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Old 06-13-2011, 12:54 PM   #110
SteveTrinkle
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

What was in that Kool-Aid? I'd like some more!

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Old 06-13-2011, 01:07 PM   #111
gregstec
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Stephen Trinkle wrote: View Post
What was in that Kool-Aid? I'd like some more!
We will have some more for you this Saturday - plus some beer too!

Greg
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Old 06-13-2011, 01:19 PM   #112
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Far out man! Groovy!

I'll bring my crystals and some more scented candles.

Last edited by SteveTrinkle : 06-13-2011 at 01:31 PM. Reason: P.S.

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Old 06-13-2011, 01:43 PM   #113
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Stephen Trinkle wrote: View Post
Far out man! Groovy!

I'll bring my crystals and some more scented candles.
geeze, not another burned out 60's freak like my wife

you don't also have a tied-dyed hakama do you /
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Old 06-13-2011, 02:01 PM   #114
DH
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
You know, I think you're right. We need to take the old kobudo attitude towards this.

Nothing to see here. Move along. Dan? Who? Oh, that guy. Never mind him. You're doing good stuff, right? Just keep doing it. We'll be busy over here...
Even tougher when you tell people " I watched you on video. You don't have it."
Then you also say " It has to be felt, you can't see it on video."
To which, people rightfully balk.
To which I reply "I never said you couldn't see it on video...
I said YOU couldn't see it on video."
"It takes an educated eye. Which causes even more angst!!!
Think of the latest vids going round with a certain person. You have all these newly educated eyes....joining with their teachers, who all see the mistakes and obvious flaws. It's not a way to win friends...so you shut up. But the people who are out there now doing the work all are seeing the same thing!!
Oy!
Dan

Last edited by DH : 06-13-2011 at 02:11 PM.
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Old 06-13-2011, 02:45 PM   #115
SteveTrinkle
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Speaking for myself only, regarding what Dan's saying, with 17 years of training (with some great teachers), I could not have "seen" this on a video. I had to experience it physically. But maybe that's just me. I don't have an axe to grind here, just pursuing my personal goals and having a great time.

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Old 06-13-2011, 03:11 PM   #116
graham christian
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

I see this thread has brought up a lot of side issues. That's o.k. from the view of seeing different perspectives on things.

I think it's been quite interesting myself.

The ip followers stuck in pr as they can't show visuals or discuss the system or individual exercises that they do. Thus they have no choice but to say come and see for yourself.

Tony basically saying less pr more show.

Meanwhile Toheis Aikido neither understood, validated or indeed seen as anything to do with the thread.

I did notice that earlier Dan seems to imply that he is taking what Tohei did that step further. Huh.

On the other hand others say it was taught as just a part of what they were doing of no further significance than that. Fair play, at least that's honest.

I will however point out that Tohei was around at the same time as these other talked about teachers be they Tomiki or whoever so his way is also old school but not the same. Would I put down Abbe Senseis way or Tomiki Senseis way? No.

Oh to be understanding and respectful without the need to put another way down or promote yours as better.

Anyway, have fun.

Regards.G.
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Old 06-13-2011, 05:19 PM   #117
Janet Rosen
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Meanwhile Toheis Aikido neither understood, validated or indeed seen as anything to do with the thread. .
My two cents, which may not even be worth that much...
My current lineage is via Tohei Sensei and I have been doing ki exercises as part of warmups for some years.

But after taking a workshop w/ Mike Sigman I started to change HOW I did them and then after a recent seminar wi/ Ikeda Sensei have further refined the actual body usage involved in how I do them . At some point maybe time/geography will work for me to meet Dan as well.

So based on my experience and seeing/feeling how some folks train, I believe that Tohei's Four Principles are sound AND I believe that some people "got it" from him - for instance my late aikido teacher - but that his Four Principles, while representing his best effort to explain what it was he could and did do, were not always taught and transmitted that well.

YMMV.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 06-13-2011, 05:39 PM   #118
graham christian
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
My two cents, which may not even be worth that much...
My current lineage is via Tohei Sensei and I have been doing ki exercises as part of warmups for some years.

But after taking a workshop w/ Mike Sigman I started to change HOW I did them and then after a recent seminar wi/ Ikeda Sensei have further refined the actual body usage involved in how I do them . At some point maybe time/geography will work for me to meet Dan as well.

So based on my experience and seeing/feeling how some folks train, I believe that Tohei's Four Principles are sound AND I believe that some people "got it" from him - for instance my late aikido teacher - but that his Four Principles, while representing his best effort to explain what it was he could and did do, were not always taught and transmitted that well.

YMMV.
Thank you Janet. Very interesting. I take it you are referring to the four principles of spirit/mind- body unification.

I too have met some who just say the right words but in my view we must remember it's a discipline, the more practiced the more understood.

Just as a side note here there are also the five principles of Aikido as well.

Compared to a lot of the comments here I would say your 2cents was worth 20 dollars.

Regards.G.
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Old 06-13-2011, 07:08 PM   #119
Budd
 
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Think of the latest vids going round with a certain person. You have all these newly educated eyes....joining with their teachers, who all see the mistakes and obvious flaws. It's not a way to win friends...so you shut up. But the people who are out there now doing the work all are seeing the same thing!!
Oy!
Dan
Er, Dan, why can't we just have the conversation regarding the vids? If they're consumable in a public format then we should take the opportunity to talk through what's being shown versus what's being seen, etc.

Or am I missing part of the conversation . . again . . *grumbles* nobody ever tells me anything.
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Old 06-13-2011, 08:07 PM   #120
JO
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Even tougher when you tell people " I watched you on video. You don't have it."
Then you also say " It has to be felt, you can't see it on video."
To which, people rightfully balk.
To which I reply "I never said you couldn't see it on video...
I said YOU couldn't see it on video."
"It takes an educated eye. Which causes even more angst!!!
Think of the latest vids going round with a certain person. You have all these newly educated eyes....joining with their teachers, who all see the mistakes and obvious flaws. It's not a way to win friends...so you shut up. But the people who are out there now doing the work all are seeing the same thing!!
Oy!
Dan
I don't know Dan, there have been a couple of people who have gone out of their way to put up videos of their own for comparison, but I don't recall anybody with "educated eyes" giving much useful feedback. Chris Hein's videos of push tests and his reproductions of exercises from videos of Akuzawa come to mind. Their is no reason to hold back comments on videos from people asking for those comments. I also think Tony has definitely deserved a thorough deconstruction of his videos (no need to be polite with him, he would see it as weakness I think).

I've been watching these discussions here for years now, it's been a while since anybody really said anything new. For the record, I'd love to see and feel what you do in person to put all this blablabla in perspective. But it bugs me that I don't even know what you look like or have any idea of how you move or what your training entails.

On a more general note, the video I want to see from the aiki folks is not another push test or a bunch of followers falling over for their teachers. I want to see what happens when two people of real skill train with each other, when it's not a given who will end up staring at the ceiling. You claim to train that way Dan, that's what I'd like to see.

Jonathan Olson
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Old 06-13-2011, 08:16 PM   #121
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Ki development in the context of the aikido I train in is based on non competive testing. Maruyama, Sensei and my teacher Ron Ragusa, Sensei stressed this aspect as being most important.

I am sure someone will always be stronger and better than me.

That is not the point for me. It is important that I don't compete and that I don't have to make you wrong so I can be right.
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Old 06-13-2011, 08:23 PM   #122
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Jonathan Olson wrote: View Post
On a more general note, the video I want to see from the aiki folks is not another push test or a bunch of followers falling over for their teachers. I want to see what happens when two people of real skill train with each other, when it's not a given who will end up staring at the ceiling. You claim to train that way Dan, that's what I'd like to see.
Aren't you one of the "aiki folks"? .

Personally, I think that video does better service in terms of clearly demonstrating "the basics" ( ie: basic techniques and excercises). Upping the ante makes already subtle skills even harder to clearly pick out IMO.
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Old 06-13-2011, 08:38 PM   #123
Budd
 
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
Personally, I think that video does better service in terms of clearly demonstrating "the basics" ( ie: basic techniques and excercises). Upping the ante makes already subtle skills even harder to clearly pick out IMO.
I kinda agree with this - for no other reason than to make sure people are on the same page when discussing "the basics".
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Old 06-13-2011, 08:50 PM   #124
hughrbeyer
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Graham, I haven't commented on the Tohei video you posted because I don't have much that's useful to say. What I see in it is a lot of bouncy-bouncy external movement. That may be expressive of a certain use of ki and connection for all I know, but it has nothing to do with the kind of connection I'm working on right now. Contrast it with the vid of Numata Sensei I posted (picking on him just to keep away from any IS/IP controversy). What I see there is connection and power delivered through a relaxed structure so easily that there's no need for a lot of external movement. *That's* what I'm going for. So it's a different path.

I have to say in response to Janet, just to rant for a bit, that I'm very tired of schools which say "Oh, we have all that aiki in our basic exercises, it's just that no one does them right." I bought that once, but now I've experienced one system that trains the internals directly--you can't help but practice the right internals unless you're wearing your iPod to class. And another system which doesn't talk the internals at all (so far in my experience) but locks the body movements in in such a way that if you do the exercises at all, you can't help but practice the right internals.

So I say, if you have a bunch of students all of whom are doing the exercises without knowing why or moving with the right internals, your system has failed. Not the students, not even the teachers--the system. This stuff does not have to be so flipping esoteric. And I'd suggest, respectfully, exploring some of the options and see what's worth importing into your style.
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Old 06-13-2011, 09:13 PM   #125
JO
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
Aren't you one of the "aiki folks"? .

Personally, I think that video does better service in terms of clearly demonstrating "the basics" ( ie: basic techniques and excercises). Upping the ante makes already subtle skills even harder to clearly pick out IMO.
Well, I train in aikido. I meant the IS/IP/IT/Ki, whatever. But you knew that anyway.

Nothing wrong with showing basics, but when it stops there, you get a "so what" reflex, especially from those that train "hard", as they say. Me, when I see great claims of martial power and effectiveness, I have a gut reaction that says "show me". And demos of basic exercises with cooperative partners don't show that (I've tried to walk mma type youtube commenters through the basics and objectives of my dan exam clips, so I speak from experience).

Jonathan Olson
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