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Old 05-29-2011, 08:12 AM   #126
Marc Abrams
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Marc. So I have conjecture and you have something superior. Don't think so.

I've met many, seen many, read many. You know what? I found those who understood only had good things to say whilst those who didn't complained they were told this and that. Mmmm.

Nice try though, especially saying I speak of when it is you speaking of and me questioning your reasoning.

It's a new way of training. That's all.

Regards.G.
Graham:

My teacher, Shizuo Imaizumi Sensei was a direct student of O'Sensei. One of his favorite tasks was assisting O'Sensei in his personal training every morning. YES, I do have something SUPERIOR to your conjecture. Then again, other people who also have long-term, direct relationships with other direct students of O'Sensei have also told you that your ideas, conjectures, beliefs, etc. are not correct. So you just keep on believing that what you have derived over the years, equals or surpasses people who had direct relationships with O'Sensei. People were discussing the concept of "delusional" right?

Marc Abrams
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Old 05-29-2011, 08:32 AM   #127
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

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Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Matt,
I think to a certain extent you are correct in your assumption that there is an inner /outer group in aikido .The very word UCHi Deshi implies an INNER group.This is nothing new or exclusive to aikido.You see this inner/outer scenario everywhere.Politics,show business, at school [the bright students get catered for , ] the Armed forces[does the Presidents/Prime Minister family join the Army and fight the Taliban?]and at your work/play.A sensei will always cater for the minority rather than the majority.You need the majority usually to pay the bills, but generally speaking there are rarely dojos where everyone is on a level playing field.As somebody said[George Orwell??] All the animals are equal , but some are more equal than others.
Put it down to human nature.Cheers, Joe.
Matt,

We may be approaching the practical limit of what can be expected from internet discussion forums such as this so thanks for taking time to explain what I had overlooked in reading this increasingly complex thread.

I agree with Joe's take, and yours as well, on the issue of an inner/outer group of students. And I would add extra emphasis to what Joe says about needing to pay the bills by saying never underestimate the business motives involved i.e. "follow the money" if you are seeking to understand what's going on with an organization or movement and why. This is something I believe to be true even where artistic dedication, spiritual monasticism and aiki training are concerned. I am that cynical and I make no apologies for it.

My knowledge of Asian culture in general, and Japanese culture in particular, is extremely limited but fwiw my experience with the methods I have seen as a beginner learning Aikido and Okinawan Karate, and as a casual player learning Go ("weiqi" in Chinese, "baduk" in Korean) is, and this is a broad generalization I know, Americans very much want to learn the easy way and are not the most serious students where these disciplines are concerned. When this general attitude comes up against a fairly robust pecuniary motive then traditional teaching methods are likely to be modified and new methods will be developed.

From what I know of the traditional, uncorrupted if you will, methods of teaching and practicing Aikido, Iaido, Karate and Go is that students are expected to work hard and work on their own to acquire the skills involved and to ultimately gain entry into a privileged inner circle. A common teaching technique I have been exposed to in each of these is a visible demonstration of a principle unaccompanied by a lot of verbal explanations. Or, the verbal description is in the form of a brief proverb which is intended to be a learning aid but which is not self-explanatory and itself requires thought and study. Sometimes its a koan, sometimes its a simple phrase and often its is just a single word. E.g. In Aikido you may be thrown a few times by the instructor, or you watch someone else being thrown, and then you are told to practice what you felt, or saw, or thought you saw or felt. In Go you are given a term as a sort of mnemonic and shown sequences taken from teaching games which you are expected to practice so that you will understand and master the principle and be able to use it fluently as a tactic or strategy in your playing. Goju-ryu involves a great deal of individual kata practice and you can expect to receive blows from your Sensei's jo when you are practicing in class. My personal observation based on limited experience is most Americans will choose much gentler teaching methods even when that means accepting much lower standards of accomplishment.


http://senseis.xmp.net/?GoTerms
http://www.tradgames.org.uk/games/Wei-Chi.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_(game)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Master_of_Go
http://www.gokgs.com/
http://www.usgo.org/problems/index.html
http://www.usgo.org/ratings/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_strategy_and_tactics
http://senseis.xmp.net/?BasicStrategiesList
http://internetgoschool.com/
http://gobase.org/games/jp/honinbo/65/?sgfmode=details
http://tigersmouth.org/forum/index.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_opening_theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gōjū-ryū
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotokan

Last edited by abraxis : 05-29-2011 at 08:43 AM.
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Old 05-29-2011, 08:34 AM   #128
graham christian
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Graham:

My teacher, Shizuo Imaizumi Sensei was a direct student of O'Sensei. One of his favorite tasks was assisting O'Sensei in his personal training every morning. YES, I do have something SUPERIOR to your conjecture. Then again, other people who also have long-term, direct relationships with other direct students of O'Sensei have also told you that your ideas, conjectures, beliefs, etc. are not correct. So you just keep on believing that what you have derived over the years, equals or surpasses people who had direct relationships with O'Sensei. People were discussing the concept of "delusional" right?

Marc Abrams
Marc.
'My teacher was' equals you have superior understanding? I suggest you rethink that logic.

Regards.G.
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Old 05-29-2011, 08:35 AM   #129
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Graham:

My teacher, Shizuo Imaizumi Sensei was a direct student of O'Sensei. One of his favorite tasks was assisting O'Sensei in his personal training every morning. YES, I do have something SUPERIOR to your conjecture. Then again, other people who also have long-term, direct relationships with other direct students of O'Sensei have also told you that your ideas, conjectures, beliefs, etc. are not correct. So you just keep on believing that what you have derived over the years, equals or surpasses people who had direct relationships with O'Sensei. People were discussing the concept of "delusional" right?

Marc Abrams
Hi marc:

That is a bit harsh. Does Shizuo Imauzumi train with Dan, too?
Best,
Mary
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Old 05-29-2011, 09:11 AM   #130
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

I don't know if this is too far OT but it may prove thought provoking in the light of the OP's question.

http://www.usgo.org/teach/quotes.html

I especially like this quote which is relevant to Aikido, our discussion here and Go:

"You're striving for harmony, and if you try to take too much, you'll come to grief."
-- Michael Redmond, the only Western go player to reach 9-dan, the highest level of professional play

Last edited by abraxis : 05-29-2011 at 09:21 AM.
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Old 05-29-2011, 10:16 AM   #131
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Give someone enough rope...

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Old 05-29-2011, 10:26 AM   #132
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Give someone enough rope...
Yep.

And...

"Just one game," they said, and started to play -- that was yesterday.
-- Chinese proverb
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Old 05-29-2011, 11:04 AM   #133
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Hi Rudy,
I think you're right about Americans and learning. I was just listening to an NPR show which spoke partly on the abuse of ADD/ADHD medicines by college students. Need to stay awake or focus? Take a pill instead of developing your own ability to do so. We are, perhaps more than most cultures today, very convenience oriented.
As usual I find myself caught between two different ideas and trying to weigh them both. I'm a big fan of the Constructivist model of teaching/learning wherein the teacher provides a series of clues and tasks for the student to set about their own learning. The teacher gradually guides the student toward any desired specifics, but apart from that, it's left more or less to the student to find their own lessons, and to a degree, their own pace.
On the other hand I'm also a fan of the Core Curriculum concept which seeks to standardize a very linear progression of very explicit lessons. Both have their strengths and weaknesses, and I think both are examples of the two basic kinds of learning: innovation and mimicry.
I want to keep writing about this because it's a topic I really like, but I'm losing focus and I have to feed my wee lad.
Thank you for the great reply! It was some good food for thought!
Take care,
Matt
P.S. Joe, also thanks to you for your reply! I'll try to offer something worthwhile when I get back on the PC. Cheers!
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Old 05-29-2011, 11:34 AM   #134
Dave de Vos
 
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Rudy Ternbach wrote: View Post
I don't know if this is too far OT but it may prove thought provoking in the light of the OP's question.

http://www.usgo.org/teach/quotes.html

I especially like this quote which is relevant to Aikido, our discussion here and Go:

"You're striving for harmony, and if you try to take too much, you'll come to grief."
-- Michael Redmond, the only Western go player to reach 9-dan, the highest level of professional play
(Off-topic) That's a nice set of quotes about go. I was surprised to read that Bill Gates is a go player too.
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Old 05-29-2011, 11:41 AM   #135
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Hi Rudy,
I think you're right about Americans and learning. I was just listening to an NPR show which spoke partly on the abuse of ADD/ADHD medicines by college students. Need to stay awake or focus? Take a pill instead of developing your own ability to do so. We are, perhaps more than most cultures today, very convenience oriented.
As usual I find myself caught between two different ideas and trying to weigh them both. I'm a big fan of the Constructivist model of teaching/learning wherein the teacher provides a series of clues and tasks for the student to set about their own learning. The teacher gradually guides the student toward any desired specifics, but apart from that, it's left more or less to the student to find their own lessons, and to a degree, their own pace.
On the other hand I'm also a fan of the Core Curriculum concept which seeks to standardize a very linear progression of very explicit lessons. Both have their strengths and weaknesses, and I think both are examples of the two basic kinds of learning: innovation and mimicry.
I want to keep writing about this because it's a topic I really like, but I'm losing focus and I have to feed my wee lad.
Thank you for the great reply! It was some good food for thought!
Take care,
Matt
P.S. Joe, also thanks to you for your reply! I'll try to offer something worthwhile when I get back on the PC. Cheers!
Matthew,

I'm assuming that if you're reading this your wee lad is content. And true what you say about our pill oriented society. I'll add the need for tests and test performance to what you've just written. Which tests, how often to test, how to go about this and what to test for are always debatable but in Go, whatever the curriculum has been, whatever your personal training methods and experience as a player, you will be given problems to solve which will test what you have learned, the teachers you have studied with (played against), and the ways you have been taught. The problems, at least up to the intermediate dan levels, have clear and efficient solutions. Beyond that kind of testing you play your own master, and you have competitive tournaments within your association and others--nowadays there are lots of opportunities for on-line tournament play as well. Beyond that you play against the best master who will play you. In this way the student makes progress, the art evolves, and each generation of players evolves to be a bit stronger than the previous one.
Best regards,
Rudy

Last edited by abraxis : 05-29-2011 at 11:54 AM.
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Old 05-29-2011, 11:47 AM   #136
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
(Off-topic) That's a nice set of quotes about go. I was surprised to read that Bill Gates is a go player too.
Yeah, me too. I wonder what he knows about Aikido.
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Old 05-29-2011, 12:38 PM   #137
Dave de Vos
 
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Rudy Ternbach wrote: View Post
Yeah, me too. I wonder what he knows about Aikido.
Ah, but here is says he isn't very good at go: http://www.britgo.org/general/celeb/

Speaking of it, I think I'm going to play a game now

Last edited by Dave de Vos : 05-29-2011 at 12:41 PM.
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Old 05-29-2011, 01:02 PM   #138
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

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Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
Ah, but here is says he isn't very good at go: http://www.britgo.org/general/celeb/

Speaking of it, I think I'm going to play a game now
Thanks for the link. I should be playing Go too but instead I'm watching Danika Patrick lead the Indy 500 by 1.7s with 17 laps to go but she may run out of gas pretty soon--like I did in Aikido yesterday because of my poor heat tolerance.
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Old 05-29-2011, 01:23 PM   #139
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Rookie leader at Indy hits the wall at 200 mph or so on the last lap but finishes second with three wheels remaining on car (happens to over-exhuberant youngsters in Aikido too). Danika Patrick finishes in 10th or so by slowing down to save on gas towards end of race (something I should do when practicing Aikido in the heat). Dario Franchiti who won last year at Indy and led today for a good part of the race gets 12th place but receives consolation prize--

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...ed=0CFwQ9QEwCA

Last edited by abraxis : 05-29-2011 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 05-29-2011, 04:54 PM   #140
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
(Off-topic) That's a nice set of quotes about go. I was surprised to read that Bill Gates is a go player too.
ummm.. considering he converted consistently inferior starting product positions into repeatedly market-rearranging category dominance -- I would be surprised if he was not.

Someone might observe a related point about some efforts in the topic at hand ...

I also like the maxim from Mr. Redmond. very applicable -- like this one:

Quos ferit, feriat silentio, in silentio et diligentia salus tamen.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 05-29-2011, 05:05 PM   #141
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Stan Baker wrote: View Post
Hi Joe
I think what you are saying about the original group is true, even though Takeda told Ueshiba not to teach aiki.They were receiving and
practicing how to develope internal power and aiki that was separate from just doing waza. This is what is missing in modern day Aikido.
Dan Harden is teaching this in amazing detail.There is a concept in Buddhism, outer, inner, secret, and most secret, one can probably apply the same idea when dealing with aiki and internal power development.
So what you are asking is totally reasonable, what is this stuff that he is teaching. I will be happy to explain my limited understanding.

stan
Dear Stan.
Whether your understanding is limited or not either way I for one will appreciate any info you care to give will be most welcome.
In fact this is all I was asking for in the first place. Of course there are methods of training which are beneficial [various types of breathing techniques, kotodama , sutras/mantras , misogi , za zen].These can be used to complement waza,depending on what floats your boat.Personally I like breathing techniques-at aged 72-to keep breathing sure is important .All else is secondary!!
I look forward to further communication from you,
As ever, all the best, Joe
Ps I do not feel that Aiki [as a concept].is limited purely to the Japanese heritage.There are concepts of acquiring mind /body control in Judaic, Indian, Native American, Chinese [to name but a few] cultures.Could Aikido be a hybrid art?Certainly the principles of In /Yo ie Yin /Yang [Fire /water] is vey Chinese.
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Old 05-29-2011, 06:24 PM   #142
DH
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
ummm.. considering he converted consistently inferior starting product positions into repeatedly market-rearranging category dominance -- I would be surprised if he was not.

Someone might observe a related point about some efforts in the topic at hand ...
Considering we deliver a consistently superior starting product which produces it's own market share through superior technology....no comparison would do. Gates could have learned something from those who both can do and then actually teach IP/aiki; delivery of a product that works, to a noncaptive audience-with options.

There is nothing quite like looking someone in the eyes and saying "Do your best, then its my turn." It tends to wake up the internet jockies with theories and opinions and those who are convinced of their " equal understanding" from a distance....up close and personal.
It also helps when we put our hands on the experts and start to sort through theory and applied skill..

Having to "Walk your talk"... in strange rooms, can be risky and rather ballsy. It is not a keyboard friendly activity, and to do so while making friends and building a shared consensus where there was none before... harder still..
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-29-2011 at 06:35 PM.
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Old 05-29-2011, 06:45 PM   #143
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Considering we deliver a consistently superior starting product which produces it's own market share through superior technology....no comparison would do.
So what do you actually do? What is your background? Do you train in Aikido?

-
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Old 05-29-2011, 07:03 PM   #144
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

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Tim Jester wrote: View Post
So what do you actually do? What is your background? Do you train in Aikido?
-
1. Teach aspects of Internal power and aiki that are critical to the practice of the arts, and I continue to train aspects of IP/aiki everyday.
2. Background in several arts and research into the above proved the inefficiency of the methods I saw being used to teach these things. This caused me to leave and come up with my own methods. These methods have proven to be of use by those who embrace them.
3. Yes and no..I left many years ago, but I am now surrounded by teachers in the art.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-29-2011 at 07:05 PM.
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Old 05-29-2011, 07:10 PM   #145
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

And so turns the wheel...

We've had this discussion way too many times on here. I got caught up in them myself back in the day.

In my case If Shoji Nishio thought O'Sensei's and Saito's Sensei's Aikido was perfect then I am sure I would be practicing Real Aikido Today LOL Even though O'Sensei encouraged Shoji Nishio Shihan to go "discover something new and make Aikido better." How many of you have Aikido Shihan that have been awarded The Budo Kyoryusho for the propagation and "DEVELOPMENT" of Aikido? What did Hombu reward him with...Nothing...just discouraging his Aikido Iaido Practice from being taught after he died and lifelong exile from Hombu Dojo.

Mr. Harden has finally gotten to the point he's willing to share his journey of Aiki with folks like me and others here.... all some want to do is chide him for it?

If Dan can make everyone's practice better than I am all for him getting a few awards too. Just give the rest of it a break please until you see and experience him for yourselves.

I hope those few don't screw it up for the rest of us in the meantime.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 05-29-2011 at 07:17 PM.
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Old 05-30-2011, 07:10 AM   #146
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

At times it seems to me Aikido is perceived by some as sort of a religion.
Ueshiba is no longer seen as a human being, liable to errors and shortcomings and self-delusions like any other human being, but being the founder of Aikido he is seen as sort of a superhuman, whose unquestionable superpowers are considered an undisputed and undisputable given, and whose tenets (many times speculated about) are deemed slightly less than the holy Gospel.

Whereas I wholeheartedly agree that the founder of a discipline needs respect, I find that between respect and idolatry there is a considerable gap that cannot be bridged without a leap of blind faith.
But what has faith to do with Aikido? There is a difference between a Sensei and a Saint, though both start with an s.

In this regard, it is perfectly possible to imagine Ueshiba as, also, a man of a different time who, probably and without this being ascribed to him like grave a fault but as an human all too human side, happened to live in a transitional epoch (he found himself flung over world wars... he witnessed his whole world crumble) and who happened to find himself also in the uncomfortable position of being not only in between two different times, but also two entirely different cultures: Eastern and Western?

What I mean is that when we see all our dojos still performing attacks with shokomenuchis, we are unwittingly betraying our underlying assumption that Ueshiba was a saint, a Seer; and that Aikido is a faith that is expected to replicate dutifully the legacy of almost a liturgy, and that whatever Ueshiba bequeathed needs to be observed saecula saeculorum, unquestioned and worshipped.

But what is that shokomenuchi we replicate as diligent lemurs in all our dojos, if not the most quintessentially crystal-clear emblem of the fact we were dealing with a man (Ueshiba) who once was a samurai and who found himself with his sword taken away from him - shokomenuchi: how to pretend I still am entitled to a sword; more than a valid training tenet we would be supposed to withhold, that shokomenuchi speaks of a man who utterly failed to come to terms with a vanishing world, and who kept envisioning training techniques that are not revealing a sound technical approach but, rather, his moving and desperate and nostalgic attempt to testify against the inexorable wreck of his times the values of his bygone world.

We have no need to follow him there simply because he was the founder - in our western worlds swords are not even simulated. We need to reshape all our training procedures and discipline, in order to meet the extremely violent and brutal settings that a WESTERN "bar fight" against competent attackers involves.
And those are mostly punches - not one, but repeated punches, rechambered fast, that keep pursuing you, with ukes highly mobile on feet and intent on going on hitting using both arms as they jump forward, backward and spin.

Shokomenuchi is wonderfully nostalgic, but it also absolutely RIDICULOUS in our modern times - who would ever attack you like that? If you have a sword, that would make SENSE, of course. But once you have no longer a sword, if you train me to develop my techniques against Shokomenuchis, you're training me to fight against ghosts.

Shokomenuchi so clearly reveals we are working with (by now) totally broken training paradigms (thence those Aikido vs tsuki videos that seem so perfect and yet so darn difficult when attempted against a real attacker TOTALLY disinclined to accommodate us).

We need to implement a modern training that recovers the full Martiality of Aikido in order to meet the violent requirements of a world that is no longer that of Ueshiba, and that ceased being such not now but as he was still alive - Ueshiba, simply, could not see it. An old man, nearly a genius, irremediably lost in a different age where attacks were made of wrist grabs and incoming swords that were not even any longer there. We are fighting against disarmed samurais. Makes sense?

If we cannot re tailor our training paradigms so to meet the CURRENTLY typical violent settings of a western fight, we train for nothing. And if we feel that we must go on teaching our pupils that the best way to learn an effective Aikido is that of going on for more decades facing empty handed Shokomenuchi, well, at that point we should also train them how to defend themselves against cowboys who, no longer entitled to carry their Colts in a holster dangling by their sides, pretend to extract it and start triggering their index fingers on non exsistant triggers.

We don't fight disarmed cowboys shooting at us with invisible guns, we would deem it ridiculous and rightly so.
Yet, we also refuse to train reproducing our most typical western violent settings.
Yet, eventually, we find it perfectly logical to fight disarmed samurais attacking us with invisible swords.

Nonsense!

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 05-30-2011 at 07:21 AM.
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Old 05-30-2011, 07:34 AM   #147
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

ps - please note that arguing that a shokomenuchi would be, after all, a valid simulation of a jab or right direct punch, would be like predicating that the countertechniques you may apply to an uppercut, are the same that would apply for a hook.

Besides, there is also a substantial difference in consequences between an isolated shokomenuchi and a set of jab/right/jab/right: the former, without a sword, do plain nothing. The latter, instead, cause significant damage and present a clear danger.

More: even our yokomenuchi are totally different from competent hooks. The difference being that yokomenuchi are telegraphed strikes that may retain their offending payload only if the incoming hand is also holding a sword that may cut you by merely grazing you and whose reach makes your arm span well beyond its normal reach.

It may afford being telegraphed, because its offending range and capabilities are immensely superior to a hook: a sword my cut off half of your face (with LETHAL consequences) even if it only touches you as you step away because you have clearly foreseen it - even more, since there is a sword there, it may be immaterial if you step back of half a meter - the sword will still get at you, with devastating consequences all the same.

But without a sword, we are training using a false and totally flawed attacking paradigm.

Normal hooks don't look like yokomenuchi in the least. They start from chambered arms and are delivered ultrafast with a trajectory that at times is only vaguely circular (hitting your nose with a jab or rather going for your chin tip requires only a slightly slanted trajectory and not a dramatic visual approach like a yokomenuchi). Good hooks are never telegraphed, whereas all yokomenuchis are invariably telegraphed. A failed hook that grazes you, won't kill you at all.

We are following the training paradigms of a samurai who cries for his gone sword.

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 05-30-2011 at 07:42 AM.
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Old 05-30-2011, 07:46 AM   #148
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Mary:

1) Harsh- Yes. Well deserved however.
2) No. I would be lying if I did not say that after a weekend with Dan, I did not have a better understanding of what Imaizumi Sensei is doing with some things. Imaizumi Sensei ALWAYS encourages me to go out and work with the best people I can do better myself. Dan is in that small list of people. Have you trained with him? If not, why not?

Alberto:

I you can consider waza as simply kata AND you have a teacher that understands and can teach the depth of kata, then shomenuchi has value. So does proper Rei for that matter. The same problem you speak about exists in karate as well. To evaluate a school I watch kata and then kumite. It is a rare teacher and school where you can clearly see the connection. That is why I also study with Kenji Ushiro Sensei. Sometimes, you can add new waters to the baby's bathtub. Throwing the baby out with the bath water is overkill to me.

Marc Abrams
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Old 05-30-2011, 08:05 AM   #149
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Considering we deliver a consistently superior starting product which produces it's own market share through superior technology....no comparison would do. ... There is nothing quite like looking someone in the eyes and saying "Do your best, then its my turn." ... It also helps when we put our hands on the experts and start to sort through theory and applied skill..
Well, this is progress, is it ... shaming inferiors? As opposed to making them better, and to want to be better.
Quote:
matthewjgano wrote:
I've heard Dan say maybe a quarter of the people who are exposed to it will have the dedication (or what have you) needed to really get it. To me this points to an important clue about what he and others mean when they talk about people "not having it."
This fairly screams selection bias in action. I have never done gymnastics -- but if I get to pick the students, I could be the greatest gymnastics coach who ever lived -- if you measure by my students. Of course there are always the great unwashed wannabes who simply don't get my unique gymnastics training methods or are unwilling to put in the massive dedication required to take benefit from them.

Less sarcastically, the 25% of people with natural faculties and the dedication to pursue almost any training, will almost certainly excel, no matter what. Saying that only a quarter get it, is saying that the method is a 75% failure in training. IOW, nothing really to crow about, since the selection bias is simply taking credit for a large component of natural variation, whatever its marginal merit beyond that, and it may well have some. More perversely, though, most people who have selection bias (e.g. -- "brilliant" stock pickers at the bottom of the market) have trouble even seeing it in the face of their manifest "success." it is two-way -- and those who benefit, may credit something that is simply an adjunct to their own dedicated observation and effort that has brought the improvement. "Stone Soup" is a large parable.

This, BTW, is why Saotome's and Ikeda's lack of concern and even advocacy of wider exposure of their students among varying forms of training is indicative of a deeper trust in the essential principles they have inculcated in their students, such that they need not concern themselves with exclusive credit for their student's accomplishments -- they brought them to understand what was already there, and with confidence to pursue it further.

The measure of training is taking people who are untrained, dead stop, or even badly trained and do something useful, explainable, and repeatable with them from there, that allows them to improve on themselves since that is what is ultimately required. Paragons under one's direction do not prove anything but the ability to pick good horses. Picking good horses does not demonstrate that one is a good trainer, even if one is. Taking the knackerman's nag and making a fair runner, now that's a real trainer.

Back to maxims, preserved wisdom is usually sounder, anyway:

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

Aikido is distinguished as a martial community, IOW -- an army:.

An army marches only as fast as its slowest soldier.

Whatever training does not improve the slackest fatboy does not make the army run faster. SEAL's are better not because they are faster, stronger, and better trained, though they are fast, and strong and well-trained -- but because they are welded units, in which every member identifies almost completely with the other members.

The genius of Aikido takes that principle of totalizing identification and seeks to weld the defender and attacker into an indissoluble unit. It makes use of a physical principle called aiki, to do that, but like all physical principles, aiki can be used to other ends, as well.

The mountaineer's prowess is not in summitting first, but in summitting and returning with the whole expedition in tow. "Acceptable losses" is a would-be general's admission that he does not identify with the men he means to command, even at loss ratios well below 75% acceptable failures. That the consequences of the case in training are less severe does not change the nature of the martial problem in question.

Doctrines that tend to prompt divisions are antithetical to that singular genius of Aikido, regardless of their isolated technical merit. That there is very likely a good deal of technical merit to be had does not diminish the problem with the manner of its presentation and questionable assumptions of its approach as applied.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 05-30-2011 at 08:11 AM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 05-30-2011, 08:24 AM   #150
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Well, this is progress, is it ... shaming inferiors? As opposed to making them better, and to want to be better.
This fairly screams selection bias in action. I have never done gymnastics -- but if I get to pick the students, I could be the greatest gymnastics coach who ever lived -- if you measure by my students. Of course there are always the great unwashed wannabes who simply don't get my unique gymnastics training methods or are unwilling to put in the massive dedication required to take benefit from them.

Less sarcastically, the 25% of people with natural faculties and the dedication to pursue almost any training, will almost certainly excel, no matter what. Saying that only a quarter get it, is saying that the method is a 75% failure in training. IOW, nothing really to crow about, since the selection bias is simply taking credit for a large component of natural variation, whatever its marginal merit beyond that, and it may well have some. More perversely, though, most people who have selection bias (e.g. -- "brilliant" stock pickers at the bottom of the market) have trouble even seeing it in the face of their manifest "success." it is two-way -- and those who benefit, may credit something that is simply an adjunct to their own dedicated observation and effort that has brought the improvement. "Stone Soup" is a large parable.

This, BTW, is why Saotome's and Ikeda's lack of concern and even advocacy of wider exposure of their students among varying forms of training is indicative of a deeper trust in the essential principles they have inculcated in their students, such that they need not concern themselves with exclusive credit for their student's accomplishments -- they brought them to understand what was already there, and with confidence to pursue it further.

The measure of training is taking people who are untrained, dead stop, or even badly trained and do something useful, explainable, and repeatable with them from there, that allows them to improve on themselves since that is what is ultimately required. Paragons under one's direction do not prove anything but the ability to pick good horses. Picking good horses does not demonstrate that one is a good trainer, even if one is. Taking the knackerman's nag and making a fair runner, now that's a real trainer.

Back to maxims, preserved wisdom is usually sounder, anyway:

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

Aikido is distinguished as a martial community, IOW -- an army:.

An army marches only as fast as its slowest soldier.

Whatever training does not improve the slackest fatboy does not make the army run faster. SEAL's are better not because they are faster, stronger, and better trained, though they are fast, and strong and well-trained -- but because they are welded units, in which every member identifies almost completely with the other members.

The genius of Aikido takes that principle of totalizing identification and seeks to weld the defender and attacker into an indissoluble unit. It makes use of a physical principle called aiki, to do that, but like all physical principles, aiki can be used to other ends, as well.

The mountaineer's prowess is not in summitting first, but in summitting and returning with the whole expedition in tow. "Acceptable losses" is a would-be general's admission that he does not identify with the men he means to command, even at loss ratios well below 75% acceptable failures. That the consequences of the case in training are less severe does not change the nature of the martial problem in question.

Doctrines that tend to prompt divisions are antithetical to that singular genius of Aikido, regardless of their isolated technical merit. That there is very likely a good deal of technical merit to be had does not diminish the problem with the manner of its presentation and questionable assumptions of its approach as applied.
Agreed. Too much polytrix.

Regards.G.
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