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Old 05-28-2011, 04:15 PM   #101
hughrbeyer
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

You know, guys, in the end you have to take control of your own training. What are your weaknesses? What does your aikido need to be stronger? What should you be working on? Figure out what that is, and go get it.

If you think you need to work on connection, letting go of muscle strength, and martial effectiveness, then yeah, Dan's your go-to guy. But you're not going to learn anything from a video--get on the mat with him, or one of the other guys who are doing similar work. Or look at other avenues to the same goal--Taiji, Bagua, Feldenkrais, Systema. Me, I'm a slut--I'll go with anybody who I think has something useful to offer. Why wouldn't you? Aikido's not a religion.

But the IP stuff isn't what you need, then just chill. Who cares anyway? I read the recent posts on knife defense with interest, but that's not what I'm working on right now. I don't care if my aikido doesn't work against a skilled knife attack, today. I've got other fish to fry first. So I'm not out hunting a Silat teacher.

If you're just curious, and want to see what this stuff looks like without any intention to commit, I offer you all kinds of sympathy but you know what? That's your problem, not anybody else's.
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Old 05-28-2011, 04:20 PM   #102
sakumeikan
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Stan Baker wrote: View Post
Hi Joe
I guess we could discuss why Takeda told Ueshiba not to teach the foundational aiki training.

stan
Dear Stan,
Ok, tell me why you think Takeda said this. Why would any student of O Sensei stay with him for years if it was rubbish Osensei was teaching?This would be an insult to the intelligence of most .Admittedly there are a few guys out there who could do with a brain transplant [present company excepted]but seriously can you state that Shirata , Tomiki , Kenshiro Abbe [one of the greatest Budo men, Tamura and others would have wasted years of their lives ?I think not, Cheers, Joe.
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Old 05-28-2011, 04:21 PM   #103
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Chris wrote:
The elite-secret-special club stuff is REALLY silly. It's one of the main reasons I personally don't take the IP, IS, IT crowd very seriously.

Quit using words like "vetted", quit holding "no pictures, no video, send request in advance" seminars, post a couple of videos and quit talking about how the Japanese are out to get you.

Get over it.
I don't get the sense Dan and the other folks who feel similarly to him are starting any elite-secret-special clubs; quite the contrary, in fact. My experience is that these folks are anxious to get the word out; to show the authenticity a certain kind of understanding (whatever it may be) can have. I still think the key problem to these discussions has to do with styles of communication.
The essential issues of "internal training" has to do with exposure and efforts at developing. I've heard Dan say maybe a quarter of the people who are exposed to it will have the dedication (or what have you) needed to really get it. To me this points to an important clue about what he and others mean when they talk about people "not having it."
With regard to the Japanese being "out to get you," I think that's mischaracterizing the issue. I think it's human nature to generally keep for ourselves the greatest things we can find. Include cultural affectations which serve to reinforce such thinking, and I think it's just another of many reasons why IS/whatever isn't as understood as it probably could be.
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Old 05-28-2011, 04:30 PM   #104
sakumeikan
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
You know, guys, in the end you have to take control of your own training. What are your weaknesses? What does your aikido need to be stronger? What should you be working on? Figure out what that is, and go get it.

If you think you need to work on connection, letting go of muscle strength, and martial effectiveness, then yeah, Dan's your go-to guy. But you're not going to learn anything from a video--get on the mat with him, or one of the other guys who are doing similar work. Or look at other avenues to the same goal--Taiji, Bagua, Feldenkrais, Systema. Me, I'm a slut--I'll go with anybody who I think has something useful to offer. Why wouldn't you? Aikido's not a religion.

But the IP stuff isn't what you need, then just chill. Who cares anyway? I read the recent posts on knife defense with interest, but that's not what I'm working on right now. I don't care if my aikido doesn't work against a skilled knife attack, today. I've got other fish to fry first. So I'm not out hunting a Silat teacher.

If you're just curious, and want to see what this stuff looks like without any intention to commit, I offer you all kinds of sympathy but you know what? That's your problem, not anybody else's.
Dear Hugh,
If you wish to purchase a new car or tv or whatever do you look around and see what the makers have for sale?Do you read some reviews of the item you are considering buying?Most people would not buy a car without a test drive.Whats the difference between getting info on a new model auto and trying to seek info on an aspect of Aikido ?If you were visiting a new dojo/Sensei would you try and get some prior info on the dojo/sensei or would you just show up at the door?By the way I dont have a problem so no sympathy required from your goodself. Thanks for the generous offer of course.
Cheers, Joe.
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Old 05-28-2011, 04:32 PM   #105
sakumeikan
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Hugh,
If you wish to purchase a new car or tv or whatever do you look around and see what the makers have for sale?Do you read some reviews of the item you are considering buying?Most people would not buy a car without a test drive.Whats the difference between getting info on a new model auto and trying to seek info on an aspect of Aikido ?If you were visiting a new dojo/Sensei would you try and get some prior info on the dojo/sensei or would you just show up at the door?By the way I dont have a problem so no sympathy required from your goodself. Thanks for the generous offer of course.
Cheers, Joe.
Dear Hugh,
Where did I say anything about Aikido being a religion?Joe.
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Old 05-28-2011, 04:50 PM   #106
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
....I still think the key problem to these discussions has to do with styles of communication....
Quite True.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
....With regard to the Japanese being "out to get you," I think that's mischaracterizing the issue. I think it's human nature to generally keep for ourselves the greatest things we can find. Include cultural affectations which serve to reinforce such thinking, and I think it's just another of many reasons why IS/whatever isn't as understood as it probably could be.
Probably true as well but I'm not sure it's Japanese Aikidoka here on AikiWeb who are raising concerns about Dan's communication styles or his methods of training.
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Old 05-28-2011, 04:57 PM   #107
hughrbeyer
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Hugh,
Where did I say anything about Aikido being a religion?Joe.
You didn't, of course. But your posts make it sound as though showing up at a seminar is some big deal, and as though training outside your regular school or style is a big deal. Since you don't want my sympathy I won't offer you advice either, but if I were to offer advice, it would be to quit thinking and just go. A seminar's a lot cheaper than a car.
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Old 05-28-2011, 05:57 PM   #108
graham christian
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Graham:

You just speak of what you think about what O'Sensei might have thought, done, etc.... There are people out there who did train directly with him. Heck, some us even train with them. Heck, we even know directly from them as to what was said, done, etc... Just a little bit different than your conjectures.

Chris:

Nothing secret about that stuff. You simply have not made an effort to experience any of it. No one really cares whether you take it seriously or not. You simply won't know what you don't know until you make the effort on your end to find out.

Rudy:

One of the interesting things is that Dan trains his students to be good teachers. His methodical teaching is replicable, which is very helpful. Many of his students are accomplished martial artists in areas that they train & teach. Sounds like you are in Dan's neck of the woods. Simply e-mail him so that you can experience it for yourself. He will be at my dojo next weekend. If you are interested in attending, send him an e-mail.

Marc Abrams
Marc. So I have conjecture and you have something superior. Don't think so.

I've met many, seen many, read many. You know what? I found those who understood only had good things to say whilst those who didn't complained they were told this and that. Mmmm.

Nice try though, especially saying I speak of when it is you speaking of and me questioning your reasoning.

It's a new way of training. That's all.

Regards.G.
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Old 05-28-2011, 06:16 PM   #109
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I don't get the sense Dan and the other folks who feel similarly to him are starting any elite-secret-special clubs; quite the contrary, in fact. My experience is that these folks are anxious to get the word out; to show the authenticity a certain kind of understanding (whatever it may be) can have. I still think the key problem to these discussions has to do with styles of communication.
The essential issues of "internal training" has to do with exposure and efforts at developing. I've heard Dan say maybe a quarter of the people who are exposed to it will have the dedication (or what have you) needed to really get it. To me this points to an important clue about what he and others mean when they talk about people "not having it."
With regard to the Japanese being "out to get you," I think that's mischaracterizing the issue. I think it's human nature to generally keep for ourselves the greatest things we can find. Include cultural affectations which serve to reinforce such thinking, and I think it's just another of many reasons why IS/whatever isn't as understood as it probably could be.
Matthew.
You have been to one of Dans events and I have read your thoughts. That's all that's needed really.

In my opinion there is no reason for anyone to insult, put down, denegrate or otherwise anything to do with O'Sensei or any other Aikido Shihan be it Tomiki, Tohei, Noro, Saotome, whoever. It's quite simply a matter of honour and is only done by those with hidden agendas no matter how good they are at what they do.

Regards.G.
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Old 05-28-2011, 06:33 PM   #110
DH
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Maybe it would make more people want to taste what he is promoting?As it stands right now could this strategy be a marketing ploy ie keep it secret and exclusive and more people will buy the product?
Mr Curran
I certainly know how to market. and were I interested in marketing or selling a product, secrecy would not not be one of my strategies. Since I openly teach and rarely refuse to let people come to a seminar, this idea you have fails on it merits.
I actually do NOT want a lot of people to "taste what I am promoting..." Learning this is difficult, decidedly not sexy or snazzy, and I can only manage to teach just so many folks. I am hoping that I can establish a relationship with those who will follow through.That's who I am looking for and hoping to teach. Now, last I checked I was only one guy doing this part time, and I wasn't getting rich doing so, and I have no plans to grow and organization of any kind.

Now, see how mundane and normal that explanation is?
I am neither the second coming or the devil incarnate. I'm just a fella trying to help, and hoping it all works out.

Quote:
1. .....If we are, as Mr Harden seems to think, all training minus aiki,
2. I welcome anyone who feels like they have the remedy for this situation.
1. I've actually never stated this, nor do I think it is true, of you knew me you would know that doesn't being to cover my view. I do think the majority in the aiki arts have missed the mark, but no one gets it? Really?
And
2.You certainly have NOT welcomed me..and sir...according to hundreds of your arts teachers, I CAN and HAVE remedied the situation for many.

History and context
Look, this type of training is the best thing you can ever do for yourself in the martial arts. It is the essence, the magic, that made the arts what they once were. There is nothing else better....period. Curiously or humorously, the history of the arts shows they trained it and had solo training exercises to develop it. If you got it, you would be agreeing with me.
It doesn't matter to me that you don't get it and that you don't know it. Anyone who claims to know it, and doesn't think it is the most important thing in the arts, is only kidding themselves that they have it in the first place.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 05-28-2011, 06:40 PM   #111
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Rudy Ternbach wrote: View Post
Probably true as well but I'm not sure it's Japanese Aikidoka here on AikiWeb who are raising concerns about Dan's communication styles or his methods of training.
I guess I don't see the distinction you're making here...would you mind explaining your meaning for me?
I'm just saying I think it's a valid point to suggest there are cultural (and even biological) reasons things aren't/weren't always taught as openly as we'd like. I also think the amount of training/dedication required accounts for a considerable portion of any supposed lack of presence.
Chris was saying he couldn't take a group of people very seriously, but then gave something of a hyperbole for why...in my opinion, at least. I was just trying to address the perceived hyperbole. To be clear, I think there are valid criticisms to be made for most of us in how we communicate here, so I certainly don't mean to dismiss the whole of his message.
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Old 05-28-2011, 06:52 PM   #112
DH
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
In my opinion there is no reason for anyone to insult, put down, denegrate or otherwise anything to do with O'Sensei or any other Aikido Shihan be it Tomiki, Tohei, Noro, Saotome, whoever. It's quite simply a matter of honour and is only done by those with hidden agendas no matter how good they are at what they do.

Regards.G.
Dishonorable? No...it isn't.
It most certainly is not dishonorable to question teaching models and to recite things like....
"Don't teach white people..."
"Only teach one or two of your closest students..."

and then discuss the fact that it is increasingly obvious that few ever really got what the greats had. I think it is a requirement. It is also very clear that the Japanese do not have a very good teaching model for this, even when they WANT to teach it openly. I find it quite surprising, even startling to hear westerners think that they do

As for put downs, depends on what you call a put down. Of course the fella who doesn't having anything special (and how many do you think secretly already know it) is going to feel put down, it simply cannot be avoided...but it can be fixed.

As for the list of people you mentioned; have you noted I spoke well of Saotome and added Shirata to that list. Have you considered that Ikeda has himself gone outside of the art to get it from someone else beside Saotome, and so isn't Gleason and Ledyard?
Do you know it is perfectly fine with Saotome?
Apparently he understands the wisdom in it, something that many are as yet still not seeing.
Now add various shihan and many dozens of teachers from other styles to that list and your argument sort of looks empty. Frankly I see it as much ado about nothing. People are training in something they like.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-28-2011 at 07:06 PM.
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Old 05-28-2011, 07:34 PM   #113
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I guess I don't see the distinction you're making here...would you mind explaining your meaning for me?.
What I meant to say was: it seems to me it is not Japanese Aikidoka here on AikiWeb who are raising concerns about Dan's communication style or his methods of training. Sorry if I didn't state this clearly the first time.

Thanks in advance for returning the courtesy by explaining what you meant by the statement "...there are cultural (and even biological) reasons things aren't/weren't always taught as openly as we'd like...."
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Old 05-28-2011, 07:42 PM   #114
graham christian
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Dishonorable? No...it isn't.
It most certainly is not dishonorable to question teaching models and to recite things like....
"Don't teach white people..."
"Only teach one or two of your closest students..."

and then discuss the fact that it is increasingly obvious that few ever really got what the greats had. I think it is a requirement. It is also very clear that the Japanese do not have a very good teaching model for this, even when they WANT to teach it openly. I find it quite surprising, even startling to hear westerners think that they do

As for put downs, depends on what you call a put down. Of course the fella who doesn't having anything special (and how many do you think secretly already know it) is going to feel put down, it simply cannot be avoided...but it can be fixed.

As for the list of people you mentioned; have you noted I spoke well of Saotome and added Shirata to that list. Have you considered that Ikeda has himself gone outside of the art to get it from someone else beside Saotome, and so isn't Gleason and Ledyard?
Do you know it is perfectly fine with Saotome?
Apparently he understands the wisdom in it, something that many are as yet still not seeing.
Now add various shihan and many dozens of teachers from other styles to that list and your argument sort of looks empty. Frankly I see it as much ado about nothing. People are training in something they like.
Cheers
Dan
Dan.
I agree it is not dishonourable to question such dishonourable statements. The person who said such a thing was being ignorant not the receiver. It is wise to question but unwise to believe just because some say. IF found to be a rule in operation then it would be wise to leave if you can't change it. This would still be no reason to put down or denegrate. As I said it's a matter of honour.

Japanese not having a model for teaching this I find just as startling a belief to hold. For all those greats who did learn namely from O'Sensei or any other 'Japanese'. Obviously they followed a model and it worked for them. It was an 'apprenticeship' type model.

Now if you are to say that in this day and age a new model is needed because the modern STUDENT can't follow that old tried and tested model the that's fine and reasonable. But implying great teachers can't teach is silly.

OF course I know it's fine with Saotome and Ledyard Sensei. Why wouldn't it be? You my friend seem to be so busy defending it along with others that do it that you class me as someone against it. So if my 'argument' that you seem to be doing something that others like and are benefiting from is hollow then you are the fool my friend.

Regards.G.
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Old 05-28-2011, 08:09 PM   #115
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Most of the current big dogs were as far from the best as you could get. Most of those we are supposed to be following had 6-10 yrs or so training and that mostly at hombu with Kisshomaru, ,who did what he could to rewrite the history of the art.
Isn't hearsay great! Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see!

-
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Old 05-28-2011, 08:48 PM   #116
DH
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
Isn't hearsay great! Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see!

-
Hmmm.....Probably the most researchered...view or opinion. I particularly found it interesting that he had to note that the early uchideshi's version of events "Hey I spent all my time training with Osensei..." is not supported by the facts,
Quote:
Aikido Journal Fall/Winter 1996
I believe there is a very different explanation for this considerable divergency of styles. I think it is due primarily to the fact that very few of O-Sensei’s students trained under him for any protracted length of time. With the exception of Yoichiro (Hoken) Inoue, a nephew of Ueshiba, Gozo Shioda, the founder of Yoshinkan Aikido, and Tsutomu Yukawa, O-Sensei’s prewar uchideshi studied a maximum of perhaps five to six years. Certainly this was enough time to become proficient in the art, but not enough to master the vast technical repertoire of aiki budo with its many subtleties. Most of these vigorous young men who enrolled as uchideshi were forced to prematurely end their martial arts training to enter military service. Furthermore, only a handful of these early deshi resumed their practice after the war.
The same can be said of the postwar period. The initiates of that period include such well-known figures as Sadateru Arikawa, Hiroshi Tada, Seigo Yamaguchi, Shoji Nishio, Nobuyoshi Tamura, Yasuo Kobayashi, and later Yoshimitsu Yamada, Mitsunari Kanai, Kazuo Chiba, Seiichi Sugano, Mitsugi Saotome and various others. Shigenobu Okumura, Koichi Tohei, and Kisaburo Osawa form a somewhat unique group in that they practiced only briefly before the war, but achieved master status after World War II. None of these teachers spent any lengthy period studying directly under O- Sensei. This may seem like a shocking statement, but let’s look at the historical facts.Before the war, Morihei Ueshiba used the Kobukan Dojo in Tokyo as his base, but was widely active in the Kansai area as well. In fact, he even had a house at one time in Osaka. Over the years it has become clear to me from listening to the testimonies of the oldtimers that the founder moved around a great deal and would spend perhaps one to two weeks a month away from the Kobukan Dojo. Also, keep in mind that the early uchideshi ended up being coopted as instructors due to the burgeoning popularity of the art and the wide-ranging activities of the Omoto-sponsored Budo Senyokai (Society for the Promotion of Martial Arts) headed by Ueshiba. These pioneers studied for relatively short periods, had only limited exposure to the founder because of his frequent absences from the dojo, and were themselves often away from the headquarters dojo functioning in a teaching capacity.In the years during and shortly after the war, O-Sensei was ensconced in Iwama. Finally from the mid-1950s he began to resume his travels with occasional visits to Tokyo and the Kansai region. By the late 1950s his trips increased in frequency and it seemed no one ever knew where he would be at a given point in time. He divided his time between Iwama, Tokyo, and his favorite spots in Kansai which included Osaka, Kameoka, Ayabe, his native Tanabe, and Shingu. He even visited Kanshu Sunadomari in far away Kyushu. I remember hearing Michio Hikitsuchi Sensei state that O-Sensei visited Shingu more than sixty times after the war. Considering that this refers to a period of about twelve to fifteen years, we see that the founder was off in Kansai on the average of four to six times per year.
The astute reader will see no doubt see what I am leading up to. O-Sensei did not teach in Tokyo on a regular basis after the war. Even when he appeared on the mat, often he would spend most of the hour lecturing on esoteric subjects completely beyond the comprehension of the students present. The main teachers at the Hombu in the postwar years were Koichi Tohei Sensei and the present Doshu Kisshomaru Ueshiba. They were assisted by Okumura, Osawa, Arikawa, Tada, Tamura and the subsequent generation of uchideshi mentioned above.
I want to make my point perfectly clear. What I mean to say is that Morihei Ueshiba was NOT the main figure at the Hombu Dojo who taught on a day-to-day basis. O-Sensei was there at unpredictible intervals and often his instruction centered on philosophical subjects. Tohei and Kisshomaru Ueshiba are the persons most responsible for the technical content and development of aikido within the Aikikai Hombu system. As before the war, the uchideshi of later years would teach outside the Hombu Dojo in clubs and universities after only a relatively short period of apprenticeship. Also, this period was characterized by “dan inflation,” many of these young teachers being promoted at the rate of one dan per year. In a number of cases, they also “skipped” ranks. But that is the subject of another article!
What does all of this mean? It means that the common view of the spread of aikido following the war taking place under the direct tutelage of the founder is fundamentally in error. Tohei and the present Doshu deserve the lion’s share of the credit, not the founder. It means further that O-Sensei Morihei Ueshiba was not seriously involved in the instruction or administration of aikido in the postwar years. He was already long retired and very focused on his personal training, spiritual development, travel and social activities. Also, it should be noted that, despite his stereotyped image as a gentle, kind old man, O-Sensei was also the possessor of piercing eyes and a heroic temper. His presence was not always sought at the Hombu Dojo due to his critical comments and frequent outbursts.
This is the truth of the matter as attested to by numerous first-hand witnesses. In the past I have hinted at some of these things, but have only recently felt confident enough to speak out because of the weighty evidence gathered from numerous sources close to the founder.
I can’t say necessarily that these comments will help practitioners in their training or bring them closer to their goals, but I do sincerely hope that by shining the light of truth on an important subject, those committed to aikido will have a deeper understanding on which to base their judgments.
As far as the outburst go...the agreed upon content was him booming that they....were not practicing his aikido.
Then
He would lecture them on the very stuff that ...well.... the IP/aiki crowd are talking about today and teachers are now going back and pursuing!!
It certainly explains the incredible difference between certain old timers versus the newer generation of deshi, all of whom would be shodan by todays standards when they started teaching. I don't really care either way, but it is what it is and explains quite a bit of the wierd differences we see..
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-28-2011 at 09:02 PM.
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Old 05-28-2011, 09:13 PM   #117
DH
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Chiba said..."We couldn't wait till he would shut up and we could go back to training...."

The newer Model we need...is and always was.... Ueshiba's, and there are those going back to it.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-28-2011 at 09:28 PM.
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Old 05-28-2011, 09:14 PM   #118
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Rudy Ternbach wrote: View Post
What I meant to say was: it seems to me it is not Japanese Aikidoka here on AikiWeb who are raising concerns about Dan's communication style or his methods of training. Sorry if I didn't state this clearly the first time.
Hi Rudy,
Sorry, what you said was clear...I'm not sure how that follows from my idea that there might be authentic cultural factors relating to why instruction wasn't always as freely given as we'd like...which was all I was trying to address. You seemed to be saying, "yes, there might be cultural aspects that prevented information from being given very freely, but the people criticising Dan's communication and methods aren't Japanese." As usual I'm probably missing some piece of context. I tend to misunderstand what people are saying a lot because of it...I tend to be a little myopic in my reading.

Quote:
Thanks in advance for returning the courtesy by explaining what you meant by the statement "...there are cultural (and even biological) reasons things aren't/weren't always taught as openly as we'd like...."
I may be mistaken, but my understanding is that there is a big difference between being an "inside" student and other kinds of students. My understanding of Japanese culture (limited though I know it is) is that there are always some progression of boundaries to be dealt with before one gains access to the inner-most teachings. I'm sure this varies, but it seems relevant to what Chris was joking about when he described the Japanese being "out to get you."
I also was trying to take this idea a bit further by suggesting this happens in all cultures (i.e. is an effect of biology/psychology, not just culture). I meant for this to reinforce the idea that it's reasonable to suggest teachings haven't always been as up front as we might like. I'm not addressing any person or group within Aikido as I have very limited exposure, but it does seem like a reasonable thing to suggest.
What do you think?
Take care,
Matt

Last edited by mathewjgano : 05-28-2011 at 09:24 PM.
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Old 05-29-2011, 12:23 AM   #119
sakumeikan
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
You didn't, of course. But your posts make it sound as though showing up at a seminar is some big deal, and as though training outside your regular school or style is a big deal. Since you don't want my sympathy I won't offer you advice either, but if I were to offer advice, it would be to quit thinking and just go. A seminar's a lot cheaper than a car.
Dear Hugh,
As far as me doing seminars is concerned in 4o years of aikido I have 'turned up?'at these more times than I have had hot dinners.So your assertion that I think going to a seminar is something special is incorrect.As far a training outside my school I will train with any group .I have also trained in other disciplines so I dont have closed mind.I also welcome constructive advice.All I was asking was what exactly are the training methods of Mr Harden.I have yet to read anybody give me an actual run down on what he actually focuses on.I am not , repeat not ,against anybody with a new slant on things.So if you care to enlighten me hear, fire away.Cheers, Joe
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Old 05-29-2011, 12:50 AM   #120
sakumeikan
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Mr Curran
I certainly know how to market. and were I interested in marketing or selling a product, secrecy would not not be one of my strategies. Since I openly teach and rarely refuse to let people come to a seminar, this idea you have fails on it merits.
I actually do NOT want a lot of people to "taste what I am promoting..." Learning this is difficult, decidedly not sexy or snazzy, and I can only manage to teach just so many folks. I am hoping that I can establish a relationship with those who will follow through.That's who I am looking for and hoping to teach. Now, last I checked I was only one guy doing this part time, and I wasn't getting rich doing so, and I have no plans to grow and organization of any kind.

Now, see how mundane and normal that explanation is?
I am neither the second coming or the devil incarnate. I'm just a fella trying to help, and hoping it all works out.

1. I've actually never stated this, nor do I think it is true, of you knew me you would know that doesn't being to cover my view. I do think the majority in the aiki arts have missed the mark, but no one gets it? Really?
And
2.You certainly have NOT welcomed me..and sir...according to hundreds of your arts teachers, I CAN and HAVE remedied the situation for many.

History and context
Look, this type of training is the best thing you can ever do for yourself in the martial arts. It is the essence, the magic, that made the arts what they once were. There is nothing else better....period. Curiously or humorously, the history of the arts shows they trained it and had solo training exercises to develop it. If you got it, you would be agreeing with me.
It doesn't matter to me that you don't get it and that you don't know it. Anyone who claims to know it, and doesn't think it is the most important thing in the arts, is only kidding themselves that they have it in the first place.
Cheers
Dan
Dear Mr Harden,
I think you are being a little bit sensitive to my comments.As you probably are aware there is sad to say people out in the Martial Arts community who I would say are the equivalent of snake oil salesmen.These guys paint a picture of Aikido which promotes such stuff as 'Instant self defence, confidence, success etc.They use a number of marketing strategies[join up and get a gi free].
The marketing industry [commercial ] caters to the notion of exclusiveness.So not publicising or showing your wares via dvd might [note my words well] have been a marketing strategy.I did not say this was your methods!!
Another point, why would anyone running a seminar refuse to take potential applicants?Unless there were restrictions eg size of mat, maybe a special course for certain grade levels, most people i know are always if anything short on applicants.
As far as you being the devil incarnate, I think not,Not when I am around[Joke]I am sure your a nice man.I am glad that some people get something from your training,thats good.If you have reason to believe that modern aikidoka have somehow 'lost 'certain skils and you can address these shortcomings well and good.
So Dan, dont think I am somehow trying to make you feel unwelcome or whatever I am just a guy seeking info. no more no less. All the best , Joe.
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Old 05-29-2011, 01:05 AM   #121
sakumeikan
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Hi Rudy,
Sorry, what you said was clear...I'm not sure how that follows from my idea that there might be authentic cultural factors relating to why instruction wasn't always as freely given as we'd like...which was all I was trying to address. You seemed to be saying, "yes, there might be cultural aspects that prevented information from being given very freely, but the people criticising Dan's communication and methods aren't Japanese." As usual I'm probably missing some piece of context. I tend to misunderstand what people are saying a lot because of it...I tend to be a little myopic in my reading.

I may be mistaken, but my understanding is that there is a big difference between being an "inside" student and other kinds of students. My understanding of Japanese culture (limited though I know it is) is that there are always some progression of boundaries to be dealt with before one gains access to the inner-most teachings. I'm sure this varies, but it seems relevant to what Chris was joking about when he described the Japanese being "out to get you."
I also was trying to take this idea a bit further by suggesting this happens in all cultures (i.e. is an effect of biology/psychology, not just culture). I meant for this to reinforce the idea that it's reasonable to suggest teachings haven't always been as up front as we might like. I'm not addressing any person or group within Aikido as I have very limited exposure, but it does seem like a reasonable thing to suggest.
What do you think?
Take care,
Matt
Dear Matt,
I think to a certain extent you are correct in your assumption that there is an inner /outer group in aikido .The very word UCHi Deshi implies an INNER group.This is nothing new or exclusive to aikido.You see this inner/outer scenario everywhere.Politics,show business, at school [the bright students get catered for , ] the Armed forces[does the Presidents/Prime Minister family join the Army and fight the Taliban?]and at your work/play.A sensei will always cater for the minority rather than the majority.You need the majority usually to pay the bills, but generally speaking there are rarely dojos where everyone is on a level playing field.As somebody said[George Orwell??] All the animals are equal , but some are more equal than others.
Put it down to human nature.Cheers, Joe.
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Old 05-29-2011, 04:08 AM   #122
Michael Varin
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
As far as the outburst go...the agreed upon content was him booming that they....were not practicing his aikido.
Then
He would lecture them on the very stuff that ...well.... the IP/aiki crowd are talking about today and teachers are now going back and pursuing!!
So, where does Morihiro Saito fit into this picture? It seems that he would be a very inconvenient figure for those taking the current "IP/IT/IS" stance.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 05-29-2011, 04:15 AM   #123
Michael Varin
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Here's the problem with Dan Harden on AikiWeb in a nutshell.

Both of the following statements were made within this thread.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Frankly I see it as much ado about nothing. People are training in something they like.
Cheers
Dan
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Look, this type of training is the best thing you can ever do for yourself in the martial arts. It is the essence, the magic, that made the arts what they once were. There is nothing else better....period. Curiously or humorously, the history of the arts shows they trained it and had solo training exercises to develop it. If you got it, you would be agreeing with me.
It doesn't matter to me that you don't get it and that you don't know it. Anyone who claims to know it, and doesn't think it is the most important thing in the arts, is only kidding themselves that they have it in the first place.
Cheers
Dan
By the way, Dan, as to the second statement, can you give a concise explanation of why this is so, and detail specifically where you learned these methods and how, if so, you further developed them?

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 05-29-2011, 04:38 AM   #124
stan baker
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Hi Joe
I think what you are saying about the original group is true, even though Takeda told Ueshiba not to teach aiki.They were receiving and
practicing how to develope internal power and aiki that was separate from just doing waza. This is what is missing in modern day Aikido.
Dan Harden is teaching this in amazing detail.There is a concept in Buddhism, outer, inner, secret, and most secret, one can probably apply the same idea when dealing with aiki and internal power development.
So what you are asking is totally reasonable, what is this stuff that he is teaching. I will be happy to explain my limited understanding.

stan
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Old 05-29-2011, 05:20 AM   #125
graham christian
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Chiba said..."We couldn't wait till he would shut up and we could go back to training...."

The newer Model we need...is and always was.... Ueshiba's, and there are those going back to it.
Dan
Dan.
So you have a new model and now you say it's Ueshiba's old model? Strange.
O'Sensei by all accounts did get frustrated at times with students not doing his Aikido. All of a sudden you are saying you're representing what he used to say???

So you teach the spiritual principles do you?

You teach how budo is love?

You teach he who attacks has already lost?

You teach the spirit of universal love? Etc.

You teach there is no competition?

Is this what you mean?

Regards.G.
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