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Old 05-27-2011, 10:09 AM   #76
SeiserL
 
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
AIKIDO IS AN INCOMPLETE THING, LEFT SO ON PURPOSE.
In FMA we often say the system is complete but not done yet.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 05-27-2011, 10:41 AM   #77
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
...it is increasingly clear that the real teaching and research is being done by Westerners in the arts.
Cheers
Dan
Hi Dan,

OSensei did a great deal to ensure this would be the case by sending his best and brightest to teach Westerners to master what he had to offer.

I believe he could see quite clearly that by acting in this way he was guaranteeing Aikido would not merely survive but would live and flourish around the globe. If he wanted it to remain a static art like Noh theater he wouldn't have cultivated it's growth around the world. I think of OSensei as a scholar and an agriculturist studying and teaching martial arts in a farming environment. He knew quite well how living things can be cultivated to grow and ultimately evolve by changing the soil in which they are planted. So I don't think the question is "Do we need to invent a New Training?" Because that's like asking "Do we need to survive?", or "Should we halt our own growth and evolution?". Instead, I believe we should accept the reality that new training methods such as yours are being invented all the time and are the direct result of OSensei's plan for Aikido.

Best regards,

R.Ternbach

Last edited by abraxis : 05-27-2011 at 10:49 AM.
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Old 05-27-2011, 11:16 AM   #78
DH
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Rudy Ternbach wrote: View Post
Hi Dan,

OSensei did a great deal to ensure this would be the case by sending his best and brightest to teach Westerners to master what he had to offer.

I believe he could see quite clearly that by acting in this way he was guaranteeing Aikido would not merely survive but would live and flourish around the globe. If he wanted it to remain a static art like Noh theater he wouldn't have cultivated it's growth around the world. I think of OSensei as a scholar and an agriculturist studying and teaching martial arts in a farming environment. He knew quite well how living things can be cultivated to grow and ultimately evolve by changing the soil in which they are planted. So I don't think the question is "Do we need to invent a New Training?" Because that's like asking "Do we need to survive?", or "Should we halt our own growth and evolution?". Instead, I believe we should accept the reality that new training methods such as yours are being invented all the time and are the direct result of OSensei's plan for Aikido.
Best regards,
R.Ternbach
Sending out the best?
When did that happen?
Most of the current big dogs were as far from the best as you could get. Most of those we are supposed to be following had 6-10 yrs or so training and that mostly at hombu with Kisshomaru, ,who did what he could to rewrite the history of the art. Their "time-in" with Ueshiba has been greatly exagerated and for the most part is equal to us following a shodan by todays standards. Hence the very real need for a better training model.

These guys needed "a better model" when they started out, namely getting back to the old man's methods in the first place. We all know the old man would show up and boom...."This is not my aikido!!"
Then proceed to talk about heaven/ earth/man and ki and kotodama.
As chiba said, 'We couldn't wait for the old man to shut up so we could train." Read that as going right back to the wrist twsities and catching air they were doing when he walked in. Yah...good luck with that..

Apparently, by reports, the good stuff was mostly done away from Kisshomaru's eyes.
Yamaguchi, Shirata are examples of training in a manner completly different in private than what they were arguably allowed to do at hombu.
Case in point; Shirata's work;was all but banned by Kisshomaru.. Here we have yet another giant of the early days. One of the few who has earned the respect of Koryu teachers and aikido and Daito ryu teachers alike.. Is it a surprise to find he had an extensive catalogue of solo power building exercises that few have ever seen?.Or that Kisshomaru banned those as well?.What a surprise....not!.
I see an incredible disparity between the likes of Shirata, and Saotome compared to the movements of teachers like Yamada, Chiba, or Kannai. It's like they came from altogether different dojo.

Farming
Actually after studying film and pictures I think his farming references were as misunderstood as all the rest. It is clear that the work involved in farming was a means for more training-and he said as much; particularly things with poles and carrying the center out from the body. I see the whole "embrace the growth cycle of the earth" as just more granola crunching revisionism that continues to ensure a sure fire miss of the real deal.

Cheers
Dan.

Last edited by DH : 05-27-2011 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 05-27-2011, 11:43 AM   #79
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Dan,

To save time I will accept what you say as the factual and unbiased statements of a reliable reporter.

Still, those facts are open to interpretation and in my view OSensei's actions clearly were intended to guarantee the future growth and development of Aikido--even in directions that he could not exactly foresee.

A child may deny or be unaware of their parentage, but DNA and mRNA testing can be used to objectively show a direct line of genetic inheritance. The fact that we are having this discussion more than 40 years after "the old man" passed away is evidence for our shared indebtedness to the traditions and training methods cultivated by OSensei.

Best,

Rudy
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Old 05-27-2011, 01:56 PM   #80
graham christian
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
This is incorrect for several reasons.
First off, too many in the aiki arts keep trying to reinvent its history. The aiki arts were MMA in their day, both founders; Takeda and Ueshiba, were deeply immersed in research in all fighting methods...

Second, the way of Aiki can indeed include a method of movement that is consistent from ground to kneeling, to traditional weapons to modern weapons, from traditional jujutsu to modern MMA, all while incorporating very recognizable aiki and aiki body methods. I demonstrate this in workshops all the time. Fighting (more akin to sparring actually),in the then current modes of MMA, and taking on challenges, and controling a fight were all over the founders history, while he was actively teaching. Were he alive today , he would have been stress testing in modern arts

It is my opinion that most people in the aiki arts; (aikido and Daito ryu) do not have aiki, and do not know how to develop it. Their main focus is on external jujutsu movement, either evasive or invasive, they do not train in stress testing, both with and without weapons and as a result they have missed the mark. Thus their very real heritage of aiki, which is immensely capable, has been lost to them. This of course explains their own self doubt and realizations of the limits within their current training models.

As I stated above, Aikido and Daito ryu were once incredibly powerful arts, both based on MMA. It is our heritage. We can bring them back. Thankfully there are those that are bringing the power,- once lost- back to the art.

I look forward to the next decade and a new aikido and Daito ryu emerging, that is based on ther old founding methods, that will indeed be more capable of delivering on its promise. For the most part, I think it will be done without the Japanese at the helm. Many people will always (understandably so) want an Asian face and cultural influence on Eastern arts, which is fine. But, it is increasingly clear that the real teaching and research is being done by Westerners in the arts.
Cheers
Dan
The Aiki arts were MMA in their day? Sorry but that makes no sense to me.

That O'Sensei, Takeda Sensei et al studied in depth is unquestionable as does anyone into their do or jutsu.

MMA is the name given to a new 'martial art' promoted on t.v. isn't it? Or am I wrong there?

As I see it O'Sensei may have been open to 'challenges' or 'sparring' but these occasions were him showing or demonstrating his principles, thus the efficacy of his style or art. Nothing new there as probably all teachers of all arts are often asked to do so by members of other arts.

No doubt you have understood some aspects of Aiki and a delivery system that works. Good, in fact very good. It means no more to me or no less.

I could say it is of my opinion that most people in judo or ju arts don't have ju. Or that most people in the taichi world don't have chi. In fact I can say in my opinion that most people in the Aiki world don't have reality on Ki.

But it's a matter of what is meant by such statements.

My point is it was the same back then. The best were the ones who understood the principles of their art in theory and application. The rest were these 'most people'

Nothing new there though. Nothing amazing when put in perspective.

Now Dan, don't get me wrong here. Anyone who can spot an outness and a way of teaching those who are not only lacking it but overtly looking for it is indeed doing a good thing. That also would have happened in the past and will once again in the future. It's normal.

So if a person is already well taught and happy in their training then those people would not need to visit mma or anything else really except in the name of research if there's something they are drawn to. So from this perspective what you say can be 'right' but so can what Mary says.

In fact I guarantee some in Aikido see an outness you are not aware of that is also grounded in history and could be presented as the missing ingredient or taught in a new way more compatible for those searching for it. Some are probably already doing it.

It's all good. It's all normal or usual. It's not us and them or amazing or the manna from heaven. It's part of a whole scene and you are doing your part, well done as is Mary doing hers and others doing theirs. Hopefully we all learn from each other.

As you would say: Just sayin.

Regards.G.
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Old 05-27-2011, 02:01 PM   #81
graham christian
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
In FMA we often say the system is complete but not done yet.
Hi Lynne.
I quoted that as someone elses statement. It's certainly not mine.

Your saying however I quite like.

Regards.G.
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Old 05-27-2011, 06:25 PM   #82
sakumeikan
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Sending out the best?
When did that happen?
Most of the current big dogs were as far from the best as you could get. Most of those we are supposed to be following had 6-10 yrs or so training and that mostly at hombu with Kisshomaru, ,who did what he could to rewrite the history of the art. Their "time-in" with Ueshiba has been greatly exagerated and for the most part is equal to us following a shodan by todays standards. Hence the very real need for a better training model.

These guys needed "a better model" when they started out, namely getting back to the old man's methods in the first place. We all know the old man would show up and boom...."This is not my aikido!!"
Then proceed to talk about heaven/ earth/man and ki and kotodama.
As chiba said, 'We couldn't wait for the old man to shut up so we could train." Read that as going right back to the wrist twsities and catching air they were doing when he walked in. Yah...good luck with that..

Apparently, by reports, the good stuff was mostly done away from Kisshomaru's eyes.
Yamaguchi, Shirata are examples of training in a manner completly different in private than what they were arguably allowed to do at hombu.
Case in point; Shirata's work;was all but banned by Kisshomaru.. Here we have yet another giant of the early days. One of the few who has earned the respect of Koryu teachers and aikido and Daito ryu teachers alike.. Is it a surprise to find he had an extensive catalogue of solo power building exercises that few have ever seen?.Or that Kisshomaru banned those as well?.What a surprise....not!.
I see an incredible disparity between the likes of Shirata, and Saotome compared to the movements of teachers like Yamada, Chiba, or Kannai. It's like they came from altogether different dojo.

Farming
Actually after studying film and pictures I think his farming references were as misunderstood as all the rest. It is clear that the work involved in farming was a means for more training-and he said as much; particularly things with poles and carrying the center out from the body. I see the whole "embrace the growth cycle of the earth" as just more granola crunching revisionism that continues to ensure a sure fire miss of the real deal.

Cheers
Dan.
Dear Dan ,
Having trained and met most of the Shihan [with the exception of Saotome Sensei ]I must say that each of these men are /were
unique in their own way.Although they trained with O Sensei it does not imo mean that they are clones of O Sensei. May I also say that whereas their Aikido is available via the internet, dvds of seminars etc.[even Osensei is on dvd] I have yet to see any of your waza or training methods on dvd?.Perhaps I have missed these and I would be grateful if you would be so kind to let me know where I can view this material ?I trust you are well?,
Best Regrds, Joe.
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Old 05-27-2011, 11:15 PM   #83
stan baker
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Hi Joe
I think your missing the point,I have seen and practiced with most of the shihans in aikido.You should experience first hand what Dan is talking about.

stan
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Old 05-28-2011, 12:29 AM   #84
Basia Halliop
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Farming
Actually after studying film and pictures I think his farming references were as misunderstood as all the rest. It is clear that the work involved in farming was a means for more training-and he said as much; particularly things with poles and carrying the center out from the body. I see the whole "embrace the growth cycle of the earth" as just more granola crunching revisionism that continues to ensure a sure fire miss of the real deal.
That's what I assumed the first time I heard someone talk about farming with respect to Aikido.

If you have any experience or knowledge of a pre-mechanized farm, that interpretation really kind of jumps out and is hard to avoid. My dad grew up on such a farm and there are so many comments he's made to me since I was a child, in different contexts, about things he learned growing up about how to use the body effectively... e.g. how to swing a scythe efficiently with proper posture and use of gravity and momentum to do much of the work, so that you can keep it up all day, how to thresh grains, how to repeatedly toss something heavy, how a very experienced relatively old person can compensate for their reduced strength with the efficient movement gained from years of experience, how to pace yourself when doing a long day of physical labour, and so on.

Not to say there may not also be other more spiritual things to learn from farming, but 'old-fashioned' physical farming certainly involves all kinds of interesting body mechanics.
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Old 05-28-2011, 01:21 AM   #85
sakumeikan
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

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Stan Baker wrote: View Post
Hi Joe
I think your missing the point,I have seen and practiced with most of the shihans in aikido.You should experience first hand what Dan is talking about.

stan
Dear Stan,
Not all of us have the opportunity to see at first hand everybody inAikido .For example I would like to see Tada Sensei .The point I am making is this you can watch material on the web from almost all the top aikidoka.While I accept its not quite the same as hands on its better than nothing.Mr Harden unless I am mistaken does not put his material on the Web.I would have thought that if his stuff is good surely it would be an advantage if at least 5 mins of his methods were made available?Maybe it would make more people want to taste what he is promoting?As it stands right now could this strategy be a marketing ploy ie keep it secret and exclusive and more people will buy the product?You seem to know what Dan does so how about sharing the knowledge with us?If Mr Harden
cannot show his stuff via dvd , why dont you share your skills with us? Post a short vid and we can all ascertain the effectiveness of
the work[even if its only second hand].Incidentally please dont think this is a challenge or anything stupid like that , just a healthy bout of curiosity on my part.If we are , as Mr Harden seems to think all training minus aiki, I welcome anyone who feels like they have the remedy for this situation.I do not see how you think I am missing the point.Rather than make such a statement lets debate the subject openly/via P.M for the benefit of future Aikidoka.Just in case you think I am averse to talking to the monkey rather than the organ grinder[as the saying goes ] I have previously had chit chat with Mr Harden concerning his views.I must say I did not totally accept his analysis of the current status of Aikido.
Hope you are well, cheers , Joe.
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Old 05-28-2011, 06:56 AM   #86
abraxis
 
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
....If you have any experience or knowledge of a pre-mechanized farm, that interpretation really kind of jumps out and is hard to avoid. My dad grew up on such a farm and there are so many comments he's made to me since I was a child, in different contexts, about things he learned growing up about how to use the body effectively... e.g. how to swing a scythe efficiently with proper posture and use of gravity and momentum to do much of the work, so that you can keep it up all day, how to thresh grains, how to repeatedly toss something heavy, how a very experienced relatively old person can compensate for their reduced strength with the efficient movement gained from years of experience, how to pace yourself when doing a long day of physical labour, and so on.
Not to say there may not also be other more spiritual things to learn from farming, but 'old-fashioned' physical farming certainly involves all kinds of interesting body mechanics.
As someone who lives in an area blessed by the most fertile alluvial soil in the eastern United States I frequently have contact with farmers and farming activities and engage in a little bit of traditional farming myself.

What you say is correct. And without getting into any of the spiritual elements which may derive from this kind of daily physical activity it is important to know what the end purposes of all this activity were for a farmer and agriculturist working in the pre-mechanized age, or a farmer working today on a small farm using their grandparents' methods. To earn a livelihood, to support a family, to hold onto the farm itself by cultivating the soil and growing crops are what these body movements are intended to accomplish for the farmer. Spiritual granola and unseen aiki training methods aside, the value of these movements for the farmer is found not just in physical conditioning. The value of the movements and the farming practice is in the immediate and future crops which result including rice, asparagus, pumpkins, and martial artists such as Dan and the rest of us.

Last edited by abraxis : 05-28-2011 at 07:07 AM.
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Old 05-28-2011, 08:10 AM   #87
stan baker
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Hi Joe
I had the same conversation with aikido folks over ten years ago after I felt Wang Hai Jun. In one ear and out the other your basic unconsciousness.Forget about the debate and go see for yourself it is that important.

stan
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Old 05-28-2011, 09:17 AM   #88
Basia Halliop
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Spiritual granola and unseen aiki training methods aside, the value of these movements for the farmer is found not just in physical conditioning. The value of the movements and the farming practice is in the immediate and future crops which result including rice, asparagus, pumpkins, and martial artists such as Dan and the rest of us.
Yes.
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Old 05-28-2011, 09:45 AM   #89
sakumeikan
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Stan Baker wrote: View Post
Hi Joe
I had the same conversation with aikido folks over ten years ago after I felt Wang Hai Jun. In one ear and out the other your basic unconsciousness.Forget about the debate and go see for yourself it is that important.

stan
Dear Stan,
In one ear out the other?Dont think so.I gave you an opportunity to show we the non aiki akidoka a chance to share your knowledge with us.Instead you churn out the same mantra -Go and see for yourself-feel the power.Then you bring in as if to validate your position the name of some Chinese chap to back up your statements [a decade ago]In the same way you then suggest I have a closed mind-gee, if I had a closed mind I would not have written to you for straight answers /suggestions to my enquiry. In view of what you are saying I think a dialogue with you would be less than helpful.
Cheers, Joe.
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Old 05-28-2011, 09:54 AM   #90
Marc Abrams
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Joe:

Dan, for reasons that are his own, chooses not to put video out in the public domain. Knowing Dan and have the pleasure of learning from him, I can say that a video would give you next to nothing useful. Putting hands-on (heck, he'll even let you put his hands near his crotch ) so that you can feel things that are happening that would not really be visible to most people, is what would be most informative.

Dan was in England this month and I am sure that you could reach out to some of them for first-hand accounts. You would genuinely enjoy meeting him when he returns to England and it would be well worth your time.

The issues regarding the "status of things" are not as important as whether or not a person has something of genuine value to offer to our training. My own personal opinion (opinions are of course like rear ends and everybody has one....) is that not only does he have a lot to offer, but his teaching methodology is exceptional.

Cordially,

marc abrams
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Old 05-28-2011, 10:40 AM   #91
stan baker
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Hi Joe
I guess we could discuss why Takeda told Ueshiba not to teach the foundational aiki training.

stan
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Old 05-28-2011, 11:21 AM   #92
graham christian
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Stan Baker wrote: View Post
Hi Joe
I guess we could discuss why Takeda told Ueshiba not to teach the foundational aiki training.

stan
Mmmm. So now Ueshibas Aikido is based on not teaching the foundational aiki training?

Ooohhh, conspiracy, conspiracy.

I think Joe represents a view that some are unwilling to understand.

What Dan does and his ability and capability is not really questioned as those who have experienced his way of teaching it say it's very good.

What is questioned is the resultant attitude by some who then seem to go into a superior frame of mind. A delusion as far as I can tell by the statements made.

If you just stuck to the points of what's good about it and kept away from the conspiratorial aspects and bringing O'Senseis name into the equation and indeed the Japanese or Hombu Dojo or anything else for that matter then you would be doing what you do or Dan teaches a favour.

All you do is give the impression of some kind of secretive Koryu style training which everyone must join or lose out.

I'll qualify this by saying I'm sure there must be some who just say how they found it and their opinion about it, a bit like Marc did for example.

Regards.G.
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Old 05-28-2011, 12:11 PM   #93
stan baker
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Hi Graham
Not some but most like yourself are unwilling to understand,and for good reason.Where do you think Dan got his information,we need to stop being lazy and look deeper.

stan
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Old 05-28-2011, 12:22 PM   #94
Marc Abrams
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Mmmm. So now Ueshibas Aikido is based on not teaching the foundational aiki training?

Ooohhh, conspiracy, conspiracy.

I think Joe represents a view that some are unwilling to understand.

What Dan does and his ability and capability is not really questioned as those who have experienced his way of teaching it say it's very good.

What is questioned is the resultant attitude by some who then seem to go into a superior frame of mind. A delusion as far as I can tell by the statements made.

If you just stuck to the points of what's good about it and kept away from the conspiratorial aspects and bringing O'Senseis name into the equation and indeed the Japanese or Hombu Dojo or anything else for that matter then you would be doing what you do or Dan teaches a favour.

All you do is give the impression of some kind of secretive Koryu style training which everyone must join or lose out.

I'll qualify this by saying I'm sure there must be some who just say how they found it and their opinion about it, a bit like Marc did for example.

Regards.G.
Delusional thinking is the result of excess focus placed upon a small shred of information so that it skews the entire presentation of the entire "bandwidth" of information taken in.

You have NO knowledge as to the statement regarding Takeda Sensei telling O'Sensei not to teach Aiki. If you wish to ignore the documented instance of Takeda Sensei directly telling a senior student to not teach Aiki (seems to be more than one instance) then you can easily misinterpret and talk about conspiracy....

You have no knowledge of what Dan can do or not do. He was in you neighborhood and you did not feel the need to assess reality. You then talk about "resultant attitude." That is also done without any real data, just assumptions based upon what you have selectively read and interpreted from.

"Inner secrets" in martial arts are alive and well in Japan and China (just two examples). There were many valid reasons to do so at a time when they were societies at war inside their borders. That tradition carries on today, in some instances, with good historical context and reasons and other instances without good historical context and reasons.

Marc Abrams
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Old 05-28-2011, 01:01 PM   #95
graham christian
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Delusional thinking is the result of excess focus placed upon a small shred of information so that it skews the entire presentation of the entire "bandwidth" of information taken in.

You have NO knowledge as to the statement regarding Takeda Sensei telling O'Sensei not to teach Aiki. If you wish to ignore the documented instance of Takeda Sensei directly telling a senior student to not teach Aiki (seems to be more than one instance) then you can easily misinterpret and talk about conspiracy....

You have no knowledge of what Dan can do or not do. He was in you neighborhood and you did not feel the need to assess reality. You then talk about "resultant attitude." That is also done without any real data, just assumptions based upon what you have selectively read and interpreted from.

"Inner secrets" in martial arts are alive and well in Japan and China (just two examples). There were many valid reasons to do so at a time when they were societies at war inside their borders. That tradition carries on today, in some instances, with good historical context and reasons and other instances without good historical context and reasons.

Marc Abrams
Takeda said blah. So what. I am sure O'Sensei, when teaching Aikido taught as he pleased. When he was 'under' Takeda then he would do as said but that has nothing to do with His Aikido.

If you believe that O'Sensei operated from that view in his OWN AIKIDO then I disagree.

That could be interpreted as one of the reasons he had to start his own way. Think about it.

Tohei did the same as did Tomiki. Each found the only way to teach in the way they wanted to without the constraints given by the organization or 'boss' was to make their own style.

I do have knowledge of what Dan does thank you very much. I commend him as such.

Your final point? Of course different places and people have 'secrets' for various reasons. Why the significance on China and Japan?

My view is different to yours my friend. I see no reason to demonize others ways just to justify what I do.

Regards.G.
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Old 05-28-2011, 01:15 PM   #96
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Stan Baker wrote: View Post
Hi Graham
Not some but most like yourself are unwilling to understand,and for good reason.Where do you think Dan got his information,we need to stop being lazy and look deeper.

stan
Hi Stan.
I don't need to dig deeper. It's the same old story. One side accusing the other of withholding the goods except for the few who join the club or pay whilst they do exactly the same. It's a silly game.

It is that part and that part only which I see as not necessary.

You feel different? Fine.

As I said. If what Dan does helps improve the understanding of Aikido and leads to better ability great. If it leads to more divide and rule, more conflict, not great.

Thus comes the responsibility to merely say how it helps and leave the rest alone.

Regards.G.
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Old 05-28-2011, 01:37 PM   #97
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

The elite-secret-special club stuff is REALLY silly. It's one of the main reasons I personally don't take the IP, IS, IT crowd very seriously.

Quit using words like "vetted", quit holding "no pictures, no video, send request in advance" seminars, post a couple of videos and quit talking about how the Japanese are out to get you.

Get over it.

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Old 05-28-2011, 01:40 PM   #98
abraxis
 
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Joe:
Dan, for reasons that are his own, chooses not to put video out in the public domain. Knowing Dan and have the pleasure of learning from him, I can say that a video would give you next to nothing useful. Putting hands-on (heck, he'll even let you put his hands near his crotch ) so that you can feel things that are happening that would not really be visible to most people, is what would be most informative.
Dan was in England this month and I am sure that you could reach out to some of them for first-hand accounts. You would genuinely enjoy meeting him when he returns to England and it would be well worth your time.
The issues regarding the "status of things" are not as important as whether or not a person has something of genuine value to offer to our training. My own personal opinion (opinions are of course like rear ends and everybody has one....) is that not only does he have a lot to offer, but his teaching methodology is exceptional.
Cordially,
marc abrams
Abrams Sensei,
I have no reason to doubt you but I am curious so I'll ask you: Is Dan Harden the only person teaching Dan Harden's way? Has Dan Harden designated a sensei or dojocho who is able to train people as he does? Just wondering.
Sincerely,
R.Ternbach

Last edited by abraxis : 05-28-2011 at 01:44 PM.
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Old 05-28-2011, 02:32 PM   #99
abraxis
 
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Stan Baker wrote: View Post
Hi Graham
Not some but most like yourself are unwilling to understand,and for good reason.Where do you think Dan got his information,we need to stop being lazy and look deeper.stan
Stan,
I am curious and would definitely like to look deeper so I'll ask you: Do you know if Dan Harden is the only person teaching Dan Harden's way? Has Dan designated a sensei or dojocho who is able to train people as he does?
Sincerely,
R.Ternbach
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Old 05-28-2011, 04:36 PM   #100
Marc Abrams
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Graham:

You just speak of what you think about what O'Sensei might have thought, done, etc.... There are people out there who did train directly with him. Heck, some us even train with them. Heck, we even know directly from them as to what was said, done, etc... Just a little bit different than your conjectures.

Chris:

Nothing secret about that stuff. You simply have not made an effort to experience any of it. No one really cares whether you take it seriously or not. You simply won't know what you don't know until you make the effort on your end to find out.

Rudy:

One of the interesting things is that Dan trains his students to be good teachers. His methodical teaching is replicable, which is very helpful. Many of his students are accomplished martial artists in areas that they train & teach. Sounds like you are in Dan's neck of the woods. Simply e-mail him so that you can experience it for yourself. He will be at my dojo next weekend. If you are interested in attending, send him an e-mail.

Marc Abrams
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