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Old 05-24-2011, 10:41 AM   #51
graham christian
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Not a new Training method. Just a little bit "released" kata.
True: No boxing here. Also no kicks.

(But it's Italian )
Loved the video. Now that's being creative yet in such a way it improves your Aikido. Excellent.

I do two ways of training which improve different aspects of Aikido. One is using two paper fans, one in each hand whilst being attacked. That for me prevents the temptation to grab and thus the only thing that works is good movement etc. Good for kokyu.

Another one I do is from holding a saucer or bowl and following the rule that you musn't tilt it whilst doing Aikido. In other words you must imagine it is full of water and you mustn't spill the water.

Regards.G.
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Old 05-24-2011, 10:45 AM   #52
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Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Shany Golan wrote: View Post
The only training you need is going out to bars and pick up fights, 5 days a week. That's the only way to know if YOUR Aikido works.
Reminds me of a story I was told about my first sensei, Mitsunari Kanai, when he was uchi deshi for OSensei.

Story has it Kanai went out one night for the sole purpose of seeing if his techniques were effective in a real fight. Picking a bar which was primarily frequented by American G.I.'s and which had a reputation as being a very tough place where Japanese were not welcome seemed to be just the place he was looking for.
Once inside, Kanai stood having a drink by himself and was soon approached by a G.I. twice his size who told him to get the hell out and told him he wasn't welcome there. Kanai chose to ignore this which resulted in the demand being shouted in his face again and louder, and then came a shove from the guy (not a punch, but a shove). Kanai just took another sip and ignored the fellow. This, if the story is correct, was followed again by another verbal demand to leave and another shove--both of which also were ignored by Kanai. At this point the G.I. was livid and charged Kanai to shove him even more forcefully which Kanai responded to and effectively put the G.I. down on the floor in such a way that the incident was ended. Thus completing the test he had hoped to perform.

The next day someone told OSensei about what had happened at the bar so he called Kanai over for a talk. The story has it that OSensei spoke to Kanai quietly and without any anger saying only, "Even after all your training you still don't know how to get out of the way".

End of story

Last edited by abraxis : 05-24-2011 at 10:56 AM.
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Old 05-24-2011, 08:56 PM   #53
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Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
....About the training-methods:
Try to train with karateka. I think you will find karateka who also practice aikido. And they are able to offer you a lot of things which you are looking for but can adjust gradually to aikido practice.
Try to crosstrain with martial arts or sports - like boxing.
Maybe learn boxing, kickoboxing or karate yourself. Being able to produce a good combination as a boxer will also help to devellop a good answer as aikidoka. Practice kata / kihon waza / basics intense as possible.
And at last - or as first step?
Find a teacher who offers you, what you need. You will get very frustrated if you train "against" what is taught in your dojo. Or with a teacher who you do not "believe".My 2c.
Hello Carsten,

You brought back a lot of fond memories with your post so I thank you for putting in your 2c.

To me, it always seemed my first teacher, Kanai Shihan, was totally dedicated to teaching aikido as a highly effective martial art.

I understand that starting when he first moved to the United States he was interested in doing exhibitions involving himself and karateka and this proved helpful in promoting the art of aikido in the United States. Also, he was known to enjoy putting on breakfall demonstrations on concrete as a way of demonstrating the effectiveness of that aspect of his practice. This suggests, in addition to your recommendations above, those interested might consider training on concrete against judo players to test and develop the effectiveness of this aspect of their aikido.

As you say, learning a bit about other martial arts is also a way to improve your aikido. Kanai was 4th Dan in Karate, Judo and Iaido too I believe before being accepted for aikido training. These are not new inventions just traditional ways of cross training to become more effective overall. This type of preparation is often found today in the training backgrounds of the most accomplished teachers in aikido.

Finally, what you say about finding the right teacher is essential to every aikidoka's training. My training with Kanai was extremely brief but has always been of great importance and value to me and I hope every aikidoka can find a teacher who they can believe in and who is as effective and as inspirational as Mitsunaria Kanai.

Regards,

R.Ternbach

Last edited by abraxis : 05-24-2011 at 09:05 PM.
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Old 05-25-2011, 09:33 AM   #54
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

In the traditional CMA external training almost always preceded internal, the hard before the soft, resistance before yielding. In this way several things were accomplished, the body was conditioned to receive and deliver force, the emotions were conditioned to deal with the reality of violence and the perceptual aspect of the mind was trained to see the early signs of intent. After more than 30 years in martial arts and 19 in aikido I believe that something else is needed than the same repetition of mechanical waza that most of us grew up with. However I am not wise enough to know what that is, althoough I continue trying, mixing cross training with some internal practises, visiting and working with teachers of different arts. I respect Alberto's desire to handle a full on attack using only aikido but I think our definitions of exactly what aikido is are probably different. I believe that the training of hard and soft, absorbing and repelling, all aspects of full and empty eventually have to come together in the kind of 6 directional force that Akuzawa refers to and also the Roppokai. Techniques cease to be important, merely slipping away from force and causing implosion where needed. The moral and ethical aspects of aikido are so freely interpreted as to be meaningless to all, and meaningful to each individual. I hope you come up with some answers, I would be interested to see and feel what you are doing.
with respect, Alec Corper

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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Old 05-25-2011, 10:14 AM   #55
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Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Alberto, Alec and Carsten,

Any chance you can all meet on the mat at a seminar convenient to the three of you? I'd like to be there to watch if you do.

Enjoy your practice,

Rudy
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Old 05-25-2011, 10:21 AM   #56
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

But Rudy wouldn't you like to join in if we promise to play nice ;-)
Seriously though don't you sometimes wish that you knew then what you know now.

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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Old 05-25-2011, 10:32 AM   #57
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Cool Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

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Alec Corper wrote: View Post
But Rudy wouldn't you like to join in if we promise to play nice ;-)
Seriously though don't you sometimes wish that you knew then what you know now.
Yes, and indeed Yes! But If I join in you could all be convicted of elder abuse--I'll be 66 in July.
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Old 05-25-2011, 10:55 AM   #58
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Congrats! I'll be 59 this year and bits are starting to fall off. My students regularly abuse me When I give them the chance.) How do you train now? I find it often difficult to be an easy uke, pain and cunning have shaped my responses. Sorry for thread drift all.

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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Old 05-25-2011, 11:14 AM   #59
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

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Alec Corper wrote: View Post
Congrats! I'll be 59 this year and bits are starting to fall off. My students regularly abuse me When I give them the chance.) How do you train now? I find it often difficult to be an easy uke, pain and cunning have shaped my responses. Sorry for thread drift all.
I just started training again this month. I joined a dojo for classes (just once/wk to start) where my Sensei is a young woman your age (Rokyu Dan). Also, I do 1:1 sessions 1x/wk with a 20-something Shodan. Everyone takes it easy on me even when my pain and cunning get to be annoying. If parts don't break, or as they get replaced, I hope to increase my sessions on the mat....And thread drift shouldn't be a concern -- if they want, people can always click on the "Ignore the Old Geezers" button.
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Old 05-25-2011, 01:08 PM   #60
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

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... How do you train now? ....
Alec,
I should have given this a bit more of an answer so I'll add that I do a little rowing on a machine and a little biking on a stationary bike. I'd like to add some yoga for core strength and flexibility as these need a lot of attention and have direct benefit in practice on the mat as you know. Being the right weight is more important than ever it seems so I'm paying a lot more attention to that as well. Overall, I think this sums it up except for the one other thing I train in which I learned years ago in central Africa from a two-hundred year old shaman. See -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW6pVFOpE6Q
Rudy
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Old 05-25-2011, 01:23 PM   #61
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

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Rudy Ternbach wrote: View Post
the one other thing I train in which I learned years ago in central Africa from a two-hundred year old shaman. See -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW6pVFOpE6Q
Rudy
Ha! That was funny!!
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Old 05-26-2011, 07:20 AM   #62
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Alberto,
I'm not writing this to provoke you into action but perhaps you might think about joining a boxing gym with the understanding that they will start you sparring at a slow pace, you using only aikido and your partner using only boxing, and gradually go from there until you can go full speed with the idea in mind that you are preparing for a partner in the ring who will see you not as an aikido artist with a zen orientation but as someone threatening their life, their family, their reputation and their livelihood. For which see...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N44vd...eature=related

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
...To make his force work against himself. Yes. That's the goal. My goal too.And that is precisely what a skilled puncher makes you realize how difficult it is. Very far from our idealized videos for demonstration purposes.....I realize that the standard aikido training is not preparing us for that. We risk of being incredibly good "a la charte": "in the menu".
I
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Old 05-26-2011, 07:36 AM   #63
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

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Rudy Ternbach wrote: View Post
...with the idea in mind that you are preparing for a partner in the ring who will see you not as an aikido artist with a zen orientation but as someone threatening their life, their family, their reputation and their livelihood.
Good god. What kind of "rings" are you talking about where people's lives and families are threatened? Let's not get overly dramatic, here...
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Old 05-26-2011, 08:21 AM   #64
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

maybe it would be pretty good if we really understood the old training (?)

What are the gokui, and how are they hidden?
Why can't we see them right away?
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Old 05-26-2011, 09:40 AM   #65
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

another thought
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Old 05-26-2011, 09:44 AM   #66
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

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Good god. What kind of "rings" are you talking about where people's lives and families are threatened? Let's not get overly dramatic, here...
Hello Mary,

These kinds of rings in which "overly dramatic" thinking is to be found.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwTE0...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQEL5sd2aOo

For further evidence in this regard you might try searching "death in the boxing ring" on youtube.

Please watch only if you have a high tolerance for the "overly dramatic".

Last edited by abraxis : 05-26-2011 at 09:52 AM.
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Old 05-26-2011, 01:21 PM   #67
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

A few posts back Graham asked a loaded question about changing students that train aikido. I think he was referring to criticism directed towards organizations and instructors disseminating aikido. I am not sure if he was serious but I would absolutely argue that the student in today's aikido is not the same as previous generations. That is certainly one of the challenges instructors and organizations face - how to offer an curriculum attractive to students while preserving the integrity of the art.
There is no doubt that aikido has changed its curriculum to offer a mainstream product that is more palatable to prospective students. Over the past many years the curriculum has been degraded extensively and in some cases should no longer be called aikido. Heck, even on Aikiweb there are people who put in writing that they don't care whether aikido works as a martial art. I think in many cases even the method of training (let alone content) from 30 years ago would be unacceptable to many current students.
I think the aikido student of today is very different than the older students were. From my perspective, I hold the organizations and instructors more responsible for allowing the curriculum to degrade by catering to build a student base rather than teach stewardship of the art. For what its worth, I believe many people know see that folly and are moving to correct it.
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Old 05-26-2011, 01:59 PM   #68
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

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Jon Reading wrote: View Post
A few posts back Graham asked a loaded question about changing students that train aikido. I think he was referring to criticism directed towards organizations and instructors disseminating aikido. I am not sure if he was serious but I would absolutely argue that the student in today's aikido is not the same as previous generations. That is certainly one of the challenges instructors and organizations face - how to offer an curriculum attractive to students while preserving the integrity of the art.
There is no doubt that aikido has changed its curriculum to offer a mainstream product that is more palatable to prospective students. Over the past many years the curriculum has been degraded extensively and in some cases should no longer be called aikido. Heck, even on Aikiweb there are people who put in writing that they don't care whether aikido works as a martial art. I think in many cases even the method of training (let alone content) from 30 years ago would be unacceptable to many current students.
I think the aikido student of today is very different than the older students were. From my perspective, I hold the organizations and instructors more responsible for allowing the curriculum to degrade by catering to build a student base rather than teach stewardship of the art. For what its worth, I believe many people know see that folly and are moving to correct it.
Amen Jon. Well said.

William Hazen
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Old 05-26-2011, 02:41 PM   #69
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

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First, I think that in general, the founder wished aikido to be an incomplete "fighting" curriculum. Long story short, I believe he did this (amongst other reasons not applicable here) to: 1. allow students to focus on "aiki" without pre-requsite combat training. 2. to protect the art from fraud and separate those who are "doing" aikido and those who study aikido in a larger sense; I believe the missing curriculum is available for those who wish to find it.
Alleluia. Amen.

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... a new delivery system that is easier for Westerners to consume and targeted towards a greater delivery of information within a shorter time-frame of training. I think part of this delivery method allows (even encourages) for cross-training and specialization.
Western learning requires two things 1) a theory or principle generalized from empirical observation in specific contexts 2) empirical confirmation of the principle or theory in operation in novel contexts. In short, whereas Japanese rote methods were mostly given to us, they are short in the two areas noted. Saotome and his approach to aikido "principles" is a correct Western mode or approach though he has left it to us to better articulate and apply them them for ourselves in many respects -- that is just as it should be.

A teacher striving for a more Western mode should be able to start with, say a basic body movement and elaborate a series of lessons on that movement from that point, without more, and explain long the way the principle operating in the body movement and how that principle is changed in appearance in various circumstances. Or, say, start with a canonical technique and then progressively modify it in circumstance or attack that relates it to the same operative principle in another canonical "technique"
Or, any of a thousand other ways to slice the salami.

One principle - many applications. Demonstrate, describe, apply, modify, rinse, repeat. I concern myself with more definitional mechanical concerns in discussion, but on the mat, I choose mechanical descriptions or metaphorical descriptions as they suit the occasion and the student.

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Those two things said... yes, aikido could benefit from a little cross-training. Knowing how to throw a punch would be the first step for many aikido people... ...If you need to brush up on striking and its related blocks and techniques, do it.
I make a point that if a new person is not striking well, that they punch me in the chest and correct them until I am uncomfortable. Two things achieved: 1) they can strike properly, and 2) they understand that martial art is "getting hit on the head lessons" for everyone -- from instructor on down.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 05-26-2011, 03:18 PM   #70
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

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I think the West is already influencing a new delivery system that is easier for Westerners to consume and targeted towards a greater delivery of information within a shorter time-frame of training.
In my opinion that is exactly what Tomiki Aikido's basic 17 does. Teach the basics and teach them in a short period of time. The additional Koryu Kata's add to the basics and round out the system.

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Old 05-27-2011, 04:38 AM   #71
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

AIKIDO IS AN INCOMPLETE THING, LEFT SO ON PURPOSE. I couldn't disagree more.

In fact I would say it's quite the opposite. It's a way discovered and presented by it's founder that leads from 'a' to 'b'.

In my opinion it is not the 'way' that is at fault and 'imperfect' but more it is a compleat way presented to incomplete people, humanity.

THE NEED FOR BETTER METHODS FOR THE WESTERN MIND.
Once again I couldn't disagree more. This implies the western mind or brain is somehow different to the eastern one.

It's nothing to do with different people it's merely to do with ways of teaching.

Traditionally in the old martial arts world the method was basically apprenticeship. Simple. Dress it up in whatever clothes you wish but basically that was the system.

BAD STUDENTS COMPLAIN ABOUT THE SUBJECT BEING INCOMPLETE, WRONG, LACKING.

How many times have you seen a student of any subject getting stuck and blaming the book or the cat or the noise or the teacher........

Yes you can use different methods of teaching but you must be aware of the phenomenon of the bad student and thus also the bad teacher.

Here's the reality:

1. There have been many excellent teachers of Aikido commonly referred to on this forum as Giants or Masters of the art. Therefore they gained a great understanding through what is there.

2. Moving to form their own version, be it Iwama, Yoshinkan, Tomiki, Shin-Shin toitsu or whatever doesn't equal something is missing.

3. Those who can understand and demonstrate easily can move to invent new ways of giving the same thing. The others are just noise.

My view.

Regards.G.
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Old 05-27-2011, 06:54 AM   #72
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

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A teacher striving for a more Western mode should be able to start with, say a basic body movement and elaborate a series of lessons on that movement from that point, without more, and explain long the way the principle operating in the body movement and how that principle is changed in appearance in various circumstances. Or, say, start with a canonical technique and then progressively modify it in circumstance or attack that relates it to the same operative principle in another canonical "technique"
Or, any of a thousand other ways to slice the salami.
Isn't this just class planning? Your post sounds as if most teachers simply teach a series of random techniques in any given class. This is not my experience. Maybe I've just been lucky.

The majority of classes I attend, whether taught by 'westerners' or Japanese, whether at seminars or (especially) at home, there is some class planning, and a clear connection between different things taught in that class. There's a certain body movement or principle as a 'theme', or variations on a certain attack or on a certain technique, or some other pattern or principle that's being shown.
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Old 05-27-2011, 07:08 AM   #73
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Random thoughts.

Do we need to invent a new training? I think not.

I enjoyed Carsten's video.

If a person in interested in MMA or fighting it can be done in another venue. Being all things to all people is not possible.
Mary
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Old 05-27-2011, 08:45 AM   #74
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Random thoughts.
Do we need to invent a new training? I think not.
I enjoyed Carsten's video.
If a person in interested in MMA or fighting it can be done in another venue. Being all things to all people is not possible.
Mary
This is incorrect for several reasons.
First off, too many in the aiki arts keep trying to reinvent its history. The aiki arts were MMA in their day, both founders; Takeda and Ueshiba, were deeply immersed in research in all fighting methods...

Second, the way of Aiki can indeed include a method of movement that is consistent from ground to kneeling, to traditional weapons to modern weapons, from traditional jujutsu to modern MMA, all while incorporating very recognizable aiki and aiki body methods. I demonstrate this in workshops all the time. Fighting (more akin to sparring actually),in the then current modes of MMA, and taking on challenges, and controling a fight were all over the founders history, while he was actively teaching. Were he alive today , he would have been stress testing in modern arts

It is my opinion that most people in the aiki arts; (aikido and Daito ryu) do not have aiki, and do not know how to develop it. Their main focus is on external jujutsu movement, either evasive or invasive, they do not train in stress testing, both with and without weapons and as a result they have missed the mark. Thus their very real heritage of aiki, which is immensely capable, has been lost to them. This of course explains their own self doubt and realizations of the limits within their current training models.

As I stated above, Aikido and Daito ryu were once incredibly powerful arts, both based on MMA. It is our heritage. We can bring them back. Thankfully there are those that are bringing the power,- once lost- back to the art.

I look forward to the next decade and a new aikido and Daito ryu emerging, that is based on ther old founding methods, that will indeed be more capable of delivering on its promise. For the most part, I think it will be done without the Japanese at the helm. Many people will always (understandably so) want an Asian face and cultural influence on Eastern arts, which is fine. But, it is increasingly clear that the real teaching and research is being done by Westerners in the arts.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-27-2011 at 08:54 AM.
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Old 05-27-2011, 09:07 AM   #75
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

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For what its worth, I believe many people know see that folly and are moving to correct it.
Agreed.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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