Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-20-2011, 12:41 AM   #76
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
United_States
Offline
Re: In a quandary

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I'm not going to touch your fallacies and unfortunate comparison even with a ten foot pole.
Ad Hominem

Quote:
BS. Pure and unadulterated BS.
Ad Hominem

Quote:
Wathever floats your boat.
Ad Hominem

Quote:
IHTBF
Ad Hominem

At least you're consistent. I respectfully request that you cease responding to any of my posts at least until you get over the emotional responses to our "debates."

For my part I apologize if anything I've posted in jest (ex. My mistake in calling you DJ) was taken as a personal affront by you. I do respect you and I wish to retain that respect... thus I will not respond to any post of yours.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 05-20-2011 at 12:46 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2011, 04:39 AM   #77
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,073
Spain
Offline
Re: In a quandary

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
For my part I apologize if anything I've posted in jest (ex. My mistake in calling you DJ) was taken as a personal affront by you. I do respect you and I wish to retain that respect... thus I will not respond to any post of yours.
Don't need to apologize for that.

Accept mine for considering this place one where scholarship, intellectual rigour and honesty are well received. This is still an aikido forum, oil and water don't mix. I won't forget that.

Regards,

DJ
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2011, 07:53 AM   #78
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,058
United_States
Offline
Re: In a quandary

Gentlemen,

If you don't wish to see someone's comments, the best action is to use the Ignore function, not ask them to refrain from speaking.

If you wish to apologize, apologize. If you wish to backhandedly praise yourself and denigrate others, don't call it an apology.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2011, 08:15 AM   #79
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: In a quandary

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
To say that aikido = mindfulness is to say that they are one and the same. If this is true, then it is also true that there is no mindfulness apart from aikido. This is demonstrably false.
Hi Mary and William, Re:Mindfulness.

Could it be that mindfulness is a useful part of Aikido and a useful part of life. Far better than mindlessness.

As to EQUALLING. Mmmmm. A lack of understanding maybe? Or maybe a poor choice of words or presentation?

Mindfulness (as Bodhidharma as been entered into the equation) is merely one part of the eightfold path.

On that line of thought then if Aikido is a path to enlightenment then it would 'equal' all eight rather than just the one. There again equal would be the wrong word to use as employ would be better.

For me many principles underlying Aikido, which we try to comprehend are in other things including Yoga and religions and life. Plenty of correlations.

Regards.G
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2011, 08:37 AM   #80
Mario Tobias
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 256
Philippines
Offline
Re: In a quandary

Thanks for your posts. They were very insightful.

I only came to realize that martial arts and religion have a lot in common. Pretty trivial to most of you but not for me. Both are change agents that transform an individual. Both have the purpose of reaching an ultimate goal, but there are several paths to reach this goal. As no martial art nor religion has ever been proven to be the best, only by keeping the faith and strict discipline to a chosen path will you (somehow) erase your doubts about what you practice.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2011, 09:18 AM   #81
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,058
United_States
Offline
Re: In a quandary

And people go to war over them.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2011, 09:27 AM   #82
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,073
Spain
Offline
Re: In a quandary

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
If you wish to apologize, apologize. If you wish to backhandedly praise yourself and denigrate others, don't call it an apology.
It was not my purpose denigrating anyone (and much less praising myself) but I understand my post could be interpreted this way. I was simply pointing to what I perceive as an incompatibility between mainstream pop culture and scholarship attempts.

This media is not appropiate for the second. Everything has its place, and harmony should not be broken.

Anyway, please accept my apologies for not accepting Boddhidharma founded and developed martial arts to cultivate mindfulness through physical expression because, as Graham wisely pointed, be it true or not it is a nice story. And this is, at the end, what really matters. Who am I for going around pinching other people's ballons?

I'll behave properly in the future.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2011, 09:46 AM   #83
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,073
Spain
Offline
Re: In a quandary

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
And people go to war over them.
Unsurprisingly, as organized religions and martial arts are instruments of power.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2011, 10:29 AM   #84
abraxis
 
abraxis's Avatar
Location: New England
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 185
United_States
Offline
Re: In a quandary

lbb: 'And people go to war over them."

Demetrio Cereijo: "Unsurprisingly, as organized religions and martial arts are instruments of power."
_______________________________________________________

Indeed, individuals and nations are apt to bring with them every tool at their disposal when they go to war. Ever been given a pep talk by the Chaplain while cleaning your M-16? Sorry, that was me as Grampy starting to tell one of my war stories. On the other hand, true warriors I've known are reluctant to tell stories about everything they brought with them but wound up leaving behind in war.

Last edited by abraxis : 05-20-2011 at 10:41 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2011, 11:44 AM   #85
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
United_States
Offline
Re: In a quandary

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Don't need to apologize for that.

Accept mine for considering this place one where scholarship, intellectual rigour and honesty are well received. This is still an aikido forum, oil and water don't mix. I won't forget that.

Regards,

DJ
Sigh....At least I tried.

On ignore....

William Hazen
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2011, 12:10 PM   #86
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
United_States
Offline
Re: In a quandary

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Hi Mary and William, Re:Mindfulness.

Could it be that mindfulness is a useful part of Aikido and a useful part of life. Far better than mindlessness.

As to EQUALLING. Mmmmm. A lack of understanding maybe? Or maybe a poor choice of words or presentation?

Mindfulness (as Bodhidharma as been entered into the equation) is merely one part of the eightfold path.

On that line of thought then if Aikido is a path to enlightenment then it would 'equal' all eight rather than just the one. There again equal would be the wrong word to use as employ would be better.

For me many principles underlying Aikido, which we try to comprehend are in other things including Yoga and religions and life. Plenty of correlations.

Regards.G
Perhaps...I did not mean to say Aikido=Enlightenment...However IMHO it could be considered Upaya....

So perhaps I used a poor choice of words....

Don't know about it the equal to the rest of the eight fold path....or Buddhism being a religion part.... or any of that stuff...

In the words of a Great Aikido/Zen Sage-

"Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others."- Groucho Marx.

William Hazen
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2011, 01:21 PM   #87
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,058
United_States
Offline
Re: In a quandary

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
On that line of thought then if Aikido is a path to enlightenment then it would 'equal' all eight rather than just the one. There again equal would be the wrong word to use as employ would be better.
Well, no, it's definitely not "equal". Enlightenment has been described as being fully present and fully aware. If you think about that -- just think about the words and what they mean, taken at face value, and don't try to drape them in any pseudo-mystical faux-Oriental trappings -- I think you'll see why I say that aikido is not a really great tool for the job. It can serve, but if enlightenment is your goal -- enlightenment the real thing, not some groovy feeling you've decided to call "enlightenment" -- I don't think aikido is the best way to get there.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2011, 01:53 PM   #88
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: In a quandary

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Well, no, it's definitely not "equal". Enlightenment has been described as being fully present and fully aware. If you think about that -- just think about the words and what they mean, taken at face value, and don't try to drape them in any pseudo-mystical faux-Oriental trappings -- I think you'll see why I say that aikido is not a really great tool for the job. It can serve, but if enlightenment is your goal -- enlightenment the real thing, not some groovy feeling you've decided to call "enlightenment" -- I don't think aikido is the best way to get there.
Hi Mary.
Done. Have done many times. Others may consider what I say pseudo mystical, so be it. I understand what you are saying and so can see your view. That's fine by me.

However, I have read many of your posts and agree with many, smile at many, learn from many. I recall one post where you were 'feeling connection' and thus demonstrating to yourself when you were and when you were not and thus experiencing the difference. All good.

So back to enlightenment.Being fully present and fully aware.

Maybe, just maybe enlightenment thus reveals the principles O'Sensei was trying to get across in which case Aikido would be a good vehicle to use. That doesn't mean other methods are wrong.
It would mean however that there are many correlations between the various ways.

It would also mean Aikido is useful for whatever you use it for be it relaxing, self defence, healing, fun, whatever. A very useful activity I would say.

Regards.G.

Last edited by graham christian : 05-20-2011 at 01:55 PM. Reason: missing word
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2011, 02:02 PM   #89
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,212
United_States
Offline
New quandries

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Enlightenment has been described as being fully present and fully aware...I don't think aikido is the best way to get there.
What about aikido makes it worse than some better method? Or, what would be an example of something better, and what about it makes it better?

My thinking is that whatever it takes to get to "enlightenment," it ultimately has nothing to do with some path, and everything to do with the one walking it. Paths are great ways to get where other people have been, and maybe a person can find enlightenment where someone else may have found it, but I'm inclined to think each of us has our own unique "location" to search for, and that means no path will take us there, though they may take us very close.
That said, I don't see how aikido is any worse than any other "way." It's subject to all the same problems of every other way: interpretations and limitations of the individual.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2011, 02:23 PM   #90
jester
 
jester's Avatar
Location: Texas
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 329
United_States
Offline
Re: In a quandary

Quote:
Mario Tobias wrote: View Post
I feel that I have lost touch with reality given that our art is a "non-aggressive" one.
Mario, I am a firm believer that you fight like you train. I personally don't see Aikido as non-aggressive but there are many non-aggressive people that study it.

Sometimes there is pain involved!! Obviously pain compliance isn't a great training method but it is the foundation of this art and very practical for self defense.

Don't forget what you learned, just add Aikido to what you already know. Your old Sensei gave you sensible advice.

-
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2011, 07:55 PM   #91
Mario Tobias
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 256
Philippines
Offline
Re: In a quandary

Thanks Tim,

Finding "enlightenment" for me is searching for a path (your own) on how to live life to the fullest, being the best you can be, and how to prepare for death. Martial arts or religion only serves as guides to help you in your search.

Not following any path would lead to a wasted life.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2011, 08:55 PM   #92
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,058
United_States
Offline
Re: New quandries

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
What about aikido makes it worse than some better method? Or, what would be an example of something better, and what about it makes it better?
It isn't the best method because there's too much going on. A better method would be any of the simple sitting meditation techniques where distractions are minimized and your focus is on something very simple, such as the breath. Put it this way: you've got a person who's never ridden a bicycle. Do you put them on a time trial bike and send them out in traffic? Well, maybe you do, and maybe they come back covered with road rash and saying, "Oh, so this is riding a bicycle." And so it goes with meditation: people try to "meditate" without really knowing what the point is, get caught up in the distractions and paraphernalia, and go about with their heads full of stuff saying, "Oh, so this is meditating". Well, okay, so there are a lot of different meditation traditions, and under the extremely large umbrella of everything that calls itself "meditation", there are even some widely divergent goals. But we've been talking specifically about meditation to cultivate mindfulness, awareness, "be here now", so we're really not talking about those meditation traditions that seek transcendence or whatever.

So, back to the bicycle analogy. The point of meditation isn't to have some kind of transcendental experience -- rather the opposite. It isn't to bliss out or to solve a thorny problem or to get rid of your stress. It is to learn the skill of mindfulness,of what's happening now, and the purpose of sitting meditation is to practice that skill in a deliberately constrained and simplified environment. It's like learning to ride a bicycle with training wheels, or (the way I learned to ride) by gliding short distances with your feet off the pedals. Or, to use another analogy, it's like five-finger exercises on the piano. That's not all there is to riding a bike or playing the piano -- it is a tool to develop a skill, which you would then use in more challenging situations. But to develop the skill, you start by practicing it in a simple form, in a limited environment, not biting off more than you can chew. Can a person who's never ridden a bike learn to ride by being put on a time trial bike and sent out into the traffic? I'm sure it's happened, in the course of human experience. But the odds are against it, and a time trial bike in traffic is not the best way to learn to ride.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
My thinking is that whatever it takes to get to "enlightenment," it ultimately has nothing to do with some path, and everything to do with the one walking it. Paths are great ways to get where other people have been, and maybe a person can find enlightenment where someone else may have found it, but I'm inclined to think each of us has our own unique "location" to search for, and that means no path will take us there, though they may take us very close.
That's like saying that every human body is unique, so why should you bother to study martial arts techniques that were developed by someone else? Why not just develop your own techniques that are best for your body?

The answer, of course, is that our uniqueness doesn't mean that no one else has anything to teach us. It doesn't mean that our time is profitably spent reinventing the wheel. Why would you want to use your inventiveness to solve a problem that's already been solved? Save it for the advanced topics.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2011, 12:42 AM   #93
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
United_States
Offline
Re: In a quandary

I understand where you're coming from Mary and thanks for the great post. However I don't think your bicycle analogy fits very well with what we're discussing... though it does point the way....

If you believe in Aikido as Budo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bud%C5%8D

Then IMO it can be used to cultivate mindfulness. I think that was one of O'Sensei's intentions for it (It certainly was Shoji Nishio's ).

Zazen, Aikido, Iaido, Chanyou , and Ikebana can all be considered Upaya In Japanese Buddhism; Along with a allot of other practices. I know O'Sensei was not a Buddhist though his writings and the very name he gave his practice "Aikido" seems to suggest that cultivating mindfulness was a method to develop "harmony".

Mind you I am looking at it through the filter/bias of "Groovy" California Soto Zen (Sunryu Suzuki's Lineage) which is my practice.

What do you think?

William Hazen
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2011, 12:43 AM   #94
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,212
United_States
Offline
Re: New quandries

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
That's like saying that every human body is unique, so why should you bother to study martial arts techniques that were developed by someone else? Why not just develop your own techniques that are best for your body?
I think I see what you're getting at, Mary. To follow the analogy, I agree it's generally best to start with training wheels; to start simply before trying to be in the "middle of here/now" in some chaotic situation.
I do think there is value in moving meditation for achieving that same kind of thing, and that the value can be found in dealing with the complexity. I'm usually pretty good (relative to my own weak experience of course) at being calm and present when I'm sitting and meditating, but it's far more difficult to generate that feeling at work or in meeting new people. Perhaps for others this is less the case, but based on my own example, I was thinking more generally on how to carry that around where ever one goes. I see this as an application issue, which seems like it would be more individualized (not that what works for one person can't work as well for another)...but I'm a long way from being able to do much of anything like this very well...and what I feel I used to be good at has mostly left me, so time will tell I suppose.
Thank you for that great explanation! I enjoyed reading it!
Take care,
Matt

Last edited by mathewjgano : 05-21-2011 at 12:46 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2011, 07:53 AM   #95
abraxis
 
abraxis's Avatar
Location: New England
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 185
United_States
Offline
Re: In a quandary

Matthew-- I agree, the goal is to carry it with you wherever you go. Eventually, and usually sooner rather than later, one has to leave the temple. When we do leave, or each time we leave, we carry the hope that what was learned in that carefully designed and specially protective environment will serve us well out in the real world.

William-- clear thinking nicely expressed. I like what you've said here and not just because I agree .

Best regards,

Rudy

Last edited by abraxis : 05-21-2011 at 07:58 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2011, 08:15 AM   #96
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,058
United_States
Offline
Re: In a quandary

Quote:
Rudy Ternbach wrote: View Post
Matthew-- I agree, the goal is to carry it with you wherever you go. Eventually, and usually sooner rather than later, one has to leave the temple.
That's true, but it doesn't make sense to talk about leaving the temple if you've never been in the temple in the first place.

I think there's a problem in the West with the popular culture of self-help or self-improvement. People go at it out of a desire to feel better and make their lives better -- nothing wrong with that, but then they confuse the ends with the means. It doesn't take a lot of insight to see that going for whatever makes you feel better right now, might not be the best path to feeling better later. The practices that we're talking about, that have enlightenment or mindfulness or whatever as their goal, are disciplines -- they're not forms of entertainment. That doesn't mean that they're supposed to make you miserable, but that they're done in pursuit of something other than feeling good and having fun right now, and so they may involve some discomfort or boredom.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2011, 08:18 AM   #97
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,058
United_States
Offline
Re: In a quandary

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Zazen, Aikido, Iaido, Chanyou , and Ikebana can all be considered Upaya In Japanese Buddhism; Along with a allot of other practices.
And a fish, with enough modifications, can ride a bicycle. Some practices make better upaya than others.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2011, 09:03 AM   #98
abraxis
 
abraxis's Avatar
Location: New England
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 185
United_States
Offline
Re: In a quandary

Hi Mary,

"Magister ludi, parce simplici turbae
aetates, si valent, satis discunt." -- Marcus Valerius Martialis

Cheers!

Rudy
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2011, 11:34 AM   #99
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,073
Spain
Offline
Re: In a quandary

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote:
And a fish, with enough modifications, can ride a bicycle. Some practices make better upaya than others.
It seems the bycicle is who is riding the fish.

Quote:
Rudy Ternbach wrote: View Post
Hi Mary,

"Magister ludi, parce simplici turbae
aetates, si valent, satis discunt." -- Marcus Valerius Martialis

Cheers!

Rudy
What?
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2011, 12:55 PM   #100
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
United_States
Offline
Re: In a quandary

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
And a fish, with enough modifications, can ride a bicycle. Some practices make better upaya than others.
Not sure about that...I have not seen any fish win the Tour Du France.

William Hazen
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Quandary Stone General 21 05-01-2003 10:35 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:31 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2016 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2016 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate