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Old 05-19-2011, 05:49 AM   #51
RonRagusa
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Re: In a quandary

Quote:
Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
OK. Lets be serious. Budo for me is a process of chasing perfection. Obviously there are real advantages and disadvantages of it. The worst thing is creating an illusion. The best, the self-complacency.

I accept the fact that I may be practicing useless skills, but it is a better use of time than, for example, Internet browsing, watching TV, or drinking beer in a bar. Isn't it?
Hi Maciej -

The skills you practice are the tools you have chosen to pursue perfection and that alone makes them far from useless.

Best,

Ron

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Old 05-19-2011, 06:21 AM   #52
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: In a quandary

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Carsten M÷llering wrote: View Post
Wow!!!

I see two difficulties when looking at aikido in such a wide sense:

Aikido may be thought usefull in contexts where there exist other tools, which do better fit to the given situation.

And aikido may loose it's specific qualitiy of dealing with physical conflicts dangers when applied in contexts it isn't made for.
Carsten:
I think you are making assumptions about the style of aikido I train in based on the style of aikido you train in. To me it sounds like they are very different.
I see no difficulties.
Enjoy your training.
Mary
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Old 05-19-2011, 06:23 AM   #53
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Re: In a quandary

Reading this thread made me wonder, Am I doing Aikido when I'm being mindful about not crashing my cart into somebody in the aisle at the supermarket? I mean, am I doing Aikido if I'm being mindful or is Aikido just another instance of my commitment to being mindful in my life but in a martial application? We can each decide for ourselves or choose to ignore/redefine the questions as it suits us. I do know that I want to get out of the way of oncoming traffic. Better yet, I want to anticipate the consequences and avoid being in a situation where I can get run over. I don't know much about aikido andI've practiced it very little but I do remember being told it's important to move out of the way. If I am reminded about this while navigating the shoppers and children in the crowded aisles of the supermarket I may not actually be doing aikido as it is generally though of but I am mindful of time, place, and the three dimensional space in which I am moving. Can't do this anymore, sorry, not had coffee yet this morning, I'm just going to leave it as, When I am in the dojo can my supermarket practice help me tenkan better?
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Old 05-19-2011, 07:18 AM   #54
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Re: In a quandary

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
Did I misread this Mary?

I may have... what with all my recent semantic difficulties... however this seems pretty straightforward as far as being 'on the hook goes."
To say that aikido = mindfulness is to say that they are one and the same. If this is true, then it is also true that there is no mindfulness apart from aikido. This is demonstrably false.
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Old 05-19-2011, 07:25 AM   #55
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Re: In a quandary

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Maybe they mix correlation and causation.
Exactly.
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Old 05-19-2011, 07:34 AM   #56
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: In a quandary

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Carsten:
I think you are making assumptions about the style of aikido I train in based on the style of aikido you train in. To me it sounds like they are very different.
I see no difficulties.
Enjoy your training.
Mary
Hi Mary,

I don't think you are practising very different styes, or the stilystic differences in your aikido are what makes you to have different opinions. I think its more because you are different persons, from different cultures and different backgrounds.

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Old 05-19-2011, 09:07 AM   #57
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: In a quandary

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Hi Mary,

I don't think you are practising very different styes, or the stilystic differences in your aikido are what makes you to have different opinions. I think its more because you are different persons, from different cultures and different backgrounds.
While the factors you mentioned are certainly revelant,I respectfully disagree. I think people who train in styles that do not practice Ki development have a harder time understanding how aikido principles are applicable to daily life.
Mary

Last edited by Mary Eastland : 05-19-2011 at 09:09 AM. Reason: guess what? spelling.
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Old 05-19-2011, 09:17 AM   #58
Basia Halliop
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Re: In a quandary

There are lots of skills I learned or improved in Aikido that I use in the rest of my life. Mindfulness or being in the moment is one example, the attitude of 'going with the flow' sometimes, being more physically coordinated and having better reflexes are others...

But I would never consider myself as 'doing Aikido' just because I use some skill that is also important or even central to Aikido or that I learned through Aikido...

To me I might just as well say that if I stand on one leg I am riding a bike, because riding a bike is fundamentally all about balance and proprioception, and when I stand on one leg I am balancing and using proprioception.
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Old 05-19-2011, 09:18 AM   #59
Diana Frese
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Re: In a quandary

I haven't read every post due to pressures connected with my husband's job (but grateful for employment....) but I keep returning to this thread. Demetrio's comment made me want to just jump in, and then Mary clarified something I've been wanting to say....

Some of us feel that the daily life applications are important. I haven't trained much in many years, but hope to train more soon, but in the intervening months and years I find Aikido in many aspects is helpful in life, even in such small physical things as letting someone thru a door at the same time as going thru that door in the opposite direction myself .... so was really amused at the are you an Aikido addict thread ....

At one time, one of my original teachers, Yamada Sensei, was quoted as saying "People need Aikido..." I don't remember the rest of the quote, but the brochure for his dojo New York Aikikai, which I attended began something like this, "In our frenetic lives...."

For many, Aikido principles help to deal with daily life. I think it depends on what we feel we need, and what we are able to take from Aikido, and hopefully others too will benefit from what we have learned, and what we share....

Last edited by Diana Frese : 05-19-2011 at 09:19 AM. Reason: added two words for clarification
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Old 05-19-2011, 09:27 AM   #60
Diana Frese
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Re: In a quandary

Thanks for your examples, Basia, I was typing when you posted. This is actually an opportunity to show gratitude to the influence Aikido has had on our lives, if we just say Aikido has helped me....or Aikido has influenced the way I .... I will go back to the previous posts to see who has phrased their experiences that way.

Two of my friends, who haven't trained in years, have told me over the phone from different states how Aikido training in the past helped them avoid more serious damage in falls in daily life than they did end up having.... Neither of them speaks of doing Aikido in those cases, they just said they were really grateful because that background in Aikido, the years of training, helped them even when no longer training.....

(Of course, it's great if we can keep training, or if stopped, re start!)
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Old 05-19-2011, 09:46 AM   #61
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: In a quandary

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
While the factors you mentioned are certainly revelant,I respectfully disagree. I think people who train in styles that do not practice Ki development have a harder time understanding how aikido principles are applicable to daily life.
Mary
Maybe. But I don't think the style of aikido Carsten practises and teaches is short of ki developement, connection, blending and the like.

For instance: Here are some video clips of Carsten's aikido club and here are some videos of your aikido club.

Maybe it's my background in "redneck hillbilly aikido", aka Iwama style but I see more similarites than differences.

Of course, you can understand, interpret, embody or give meaning to these concepts in a way very different from Carsten's but, IMHO, the cause of these differences is mostly derived from you both being different persons (in the sociological/psychological meanings of the word) than from practising different kinds of aikido.

What I would like to know is (not especifically related to this thread or the differences between you and him) to what extent one uses aikido to transform himself, aikido as a transformative tool in words of Ledyard Sensei iirc, instead of transforming aikido in something that validates/reinforces his/her's views of the world, life and how to deal with it. If we are into the last, are we doing aikido?

Cheers

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 05-19-2011 at 09:50 AM.

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Old 05-19-2011, 10:14 AM   #62
abraxis
 
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Re: In a quandary

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
.... IMHO, the cause of these differences is mostly derived from you both being different persons (in the sociological/psychological meanings of the word) than from practising different kinds of aikido....Cheers
Yes, I agree, the differences between any two individuals practicing the same style in any given dojo are often greater than the differences between two different styles taught in separate dojo. Best regards...

Last edited by abraxis : 05-19-2011 at 10:18 AM.
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Old 05-19-2011, 11:23 AM   #63
lbb
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Re: In a quandary

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
What I would like to know is (not especifically related to this thread or the differences between you and him) to what extent one uses aikido to transform himself, aikido as a transformative tool in words of Ledyard Sensei iirc, instead of transforming aikido in something that validates/reinforces his/her's views of the world, life and how to deal with it. If we are into the last, are we doing aikido?
Well, no. If you transform aikido, it isn't aikido any more. That's what the word "transform" means, after all.

With regard to aikido as transformational and life-changing: changes, transformations, growth are all part of life, and there are many agents of these changes. Aikido is only one of these agents, and some of the changes that it brings about in some people are changes that other people make in their lives through other agents, without aikido, or before they came to aikido. Aikido didn't introduce me to the practice of meditation or the concept of mindfulness, it wasn't my first encounter with the concepts of mushin or zanshin. It is for some, and that may be where the whole "aikido is how I live my life" belief comes from.
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Old 05-19-2011, 11:31 AM   #64
Aikibu
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Re: In a quandary

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
To say that aikido = mindfulness is to say that they are one and the same. If this is true, then it is also true that there is no mindfulness apart from aikido. This is demonstrably false.
Thanks Mary... I understand...and humbly submit that mindfulness can be cultivated with any activity. Hence Washing Dishes, Driving the Freeway, and Practicing Aikido= All equal mindfulness.

Or none do...Duality can be a pesky little Devil.

William Hazen
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Old 05-19-2011, 12:04 PM   #65
abraxis
 
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Re: In a quandary

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
....what are the non-transferable qualities of Aikido?...
Great question, should be a topic for its own thread!
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Old 05-19-2011, 12:08 PM   #66
mathewjgano
 
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Re: In a quandary

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Rudy Ternbach wrote: View Post
Great question, should be a topic for its own thread!
I was just about to do that in fact! Almost didn't make it in time.
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Old 05-19-2011, 12:16 PM   #67
abraxis
 
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Re: In a quandary

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I was just about to do that in fact! Almost didn't make it in time.
Then just click on the time machine button under Miscellaneous.:

Last edited by abraxis : 05-19-2011 at 12:19 PM.
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Old 05-19-2011, 12:30 PM   #68
mathewjgano
 
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Re: In a quandary

Quote:
Rudy Ternbach wrote: View Post
Then just click on the time machine button under Miscellaneous.:
lol! I was wondering where that button was located!
I meant I almost didn't delete my off-topic post from this thread in time...and which I've probably rendered moot with these subsequent posts.

...er...refresh your other jututsu practices, OP, if you're worried about having gotten a little rusty.
Whew! Close one.
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Old 05-19-2011, 04:18 PM   #69
graham christian
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Re: In a quandary

Demetrio.
Thanks for the directions re: Bodhidharma etc. When I get the time and inclination I'll look into it.

Personally I prefer the history of the Japanese monks like the Sohei. All fascinating stuff.(I prefer carrying the sword blade down much like those, much to the chagrin of many Aikidoka)

Regards.G.
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Old 05-19-2011, 04:28 PM   #70
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: In a quandary

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Personally I prefer the history of the Japanese monks like the Sohei. All fascinating stuff.(I prefer carrying the sword blade down much like those, much to the chagrin of many Aikidoka)

Regards.G.
Then this one is for you.

Cheers.

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Old 05-19-2011, 04:33 PM   #71
graham christian
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Re: In a quandary

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Then this one is for you.

Cheers.
Ahh. Now your talking. Thanks for that.

G.
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Old 05-19-2011, 06:47 PM   #72
Aikibu
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Re: In a quandary

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
And these Martial Arts Bodhidharma specifically founded and developed to cultivate mindfulness through physical expression are?
Googlefu.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhidharma

Lots of folks have discredited this view over the years so they're included here for your enjoyment.

No one however has completely refuted it.

William Hazen
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Old 05-19-2011, 06:59 PM   #73
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Re: In a quandary

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
Fas-ci-na-ting

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Old 05-19-2011, 07:08 PM   #74
Aikibu
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Re: In a quandary

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Hi Graham,

Only an aficionado (and you can be one too, it is not something outside of the possibilities of any ordinary person). Don't take the following as a correction but as offering an alternative point of view.

If you are interested in a scholar approach I recommend you to read The Shaolin Monastery: History, Religion, and the Chinese Martial Arts by Meir Shahar.

Also:

(emphasis mine)

This is taken from wikipedia but you can check the source: Lin, Boyuan (1996), Zhōngguˇ wǔsh¨ shǐ 中國武術史, Taipei 臺北: Wǔzhōu chūbǎnshŔ 五洲出版社

I'd say what you've told about Bodhidharma as originator of Shaolin martial arts is useful myth and legend, but historically unaccurate. In this sense, of useful myths and legend in martial arts history, I'd also recommend "Sense in Nonsense: The Role of Folk History in the Martial Arts" by Thomas A. Green in Martial Arts in the Modern World

I personally don't have any problems whith using myths, legends or fiction to illustrate a point or teach a lesson, as long one is aware of it and makes it clear to the audience. One should do not try to pass legends as historical facts and viceversa if we are after virtue. Get my point?

And you can call me DJ if you want, of course.
I used the same wiki just for giggles ...as to your point... having studied the issue for over 30 years (including reading the book you mentioned) it still has not been completely refuted by historical fact though I will agree it may compare with such things as Moses parting the Red Sea, Christ's rising from the Dead and O'Sensei dodging bullets...However, for now... The fact he was present Shaolin is enough and he appears to have introduced a spiritual strain to what has now evolved as Budo and Aikido is enough. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_arts_timeline

Thus I will continue to hold my opinion as is...

I now humbly yield the mat to you... Master of Google-Fu! aka DC

William Hazen

PS. Note what happened at Shaolin in 1928.

Last edited by Aikibu : 05-19-2011 at 07:18 PM.
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Old 05-19-2011, 07:27 PM   #75
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: In a quandary

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
having studied the issue for over 30 years (including reading the book you mentioned) it still has not been completely refuted by historical fact though I will agree it may compare with such things as Moses parting the Red Sea, Christ's rising from the Dead and O'Sensei dodging bullets.
I'm not going to touch your fallacies and unfortunate comparison even with a ten foot pole.

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The fact he was present Shaolin is enough and he appears to have introduced a spiritual strain to what has now evolved as Budo and Aikido is enough.
BS. Pure and unadulterated BS.

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Thus I will continue to hold my opinion as is...
Wathever floats your boat.

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I now humbly yield the mat to you... Master of Google-Fu! aka DC
IHTBF

Regards.

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