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Old 06-14-2011, 09:32 AM   #76
lbb
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
That's physically impossible unless you have 3 or more legs.

-
Maybe not even then, unless you humpty-dumpty the definition of "every". My sensei likes to tell a story about his first teacher saying to him once, "So, you think you can't be moved?"

My sensei was a strong young guy who had been training for a bit and who thought his fundamentals were quite strong, including his stance and centeredness and all that good stuff -- so he said, "Yes," and then braced himself for some kind of strong physical attack.

Instead, his sensei -- who was quite a bit smaller than him -- stuck a finger in his ear.

To hear my sensei tell it, rarely has anyone hit the mat so fast or so hard.
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Old 06-14-2011, 09:43 AM   #77
Chris Knight
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
That's physically impossible unless you have 3 or more legs.

-
really? not from what i've seen
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Old 06-14-2011, 09:55 AM   #78
gates
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

If the dust has settled a little bit.....

In seeking out some 'basic' solo exercises that I may be able to gain something useful from I found this video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIfUgUfs2FM

I am interested if anybody is able to explain in some detail the more subtle aspects of the of this apparently basic exercise, knowing that the mastery is in the detail, especially in "basic" practice.

I can see kokyu as a whole body movement 'coiling' and a weight underside - centre to centre connection between uke and nage.
Anybody care to elaborate or share their understanding?


(A novice Aikidoka and IP virgin)
Keith

Last edited by gates : 06-14-2011 at 10:05 AM.

Enjoy the journey
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Old 06-14-2011, 10:00 AM   #79
mrlizard123
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
That's physically impossible unless you have 3 or more legs.

-
That was always my standpoint previously but if you add in "for all intents and purposes" in front of unmoveable (I'm sure a car could move you for example) then I have had to change my viewpoint...

Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
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Old 06-14-2011, 10:17 AM   #80
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Rich Hobbs wrote: View Post
That was always my standpoint previously but if you add in "for all intents and purposes" in front of unmoveable (I'm sure a car could move you for example) then I have had to change my viewpoint...
Hi RIch
Easy to now understand their confusion eh? Tough to continually have to listen to it, you see the hollowness of their argument, but what can you do. They don't know...what they don't know, and for some they simply cannot imagine there is a body of work that either they or their teachers didn't know or know how to teach.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 06-14-2011, 10:36 AM   #81
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

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Chris Knight wrote: View Post
really? not from what i've seen
Then you need to take a judo class! You have 2 main lines of off balance. Down the line of your feet and perpendicular to your feet.

If you are strong in one direction, you are weak in the other.

Think of a power lifter squatting a few hundred pounds. As he's lifting the weight up, push with 1 finger on his waist from behind which is perpendicular to his force (his force is going up).

Bam! he will fall over backwards every time. That principal is at the core of the Aikido I learned. You can only put force in one direction. Yes it's easy to alter your force to compensate from a single push from one direction but Judo principals don't work that way.

If you're not experienced in Judo or Tomiki Aikido then you might not understand this principal.

-

-It seems to be all about semantics!
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Old 06-14-2011, 10:45 AM   #82
Chris Knight
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

thats very interesting Tim, and to the uneducated like myself, it will work every time, but I think you need to look deeper martially and you will find that this principle doesn't always apply

O Sensei was immoveable by any number of martial artists including judoka and wrestlers. Dont you think this body skill cant be re-learnt??
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Old 06-14-2011, 10:52 AM   #83
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
thats very interesting Tim, and to the uneducated like myself, it will work every time, but I think you need to look deeper martially and you will find that this principle doesn't always apply

O Sensei was immoveable by any number of martial artists including judoka and wrestlers. Dont you think this body skill cant be re-learnt??
Could be that as he was so short he had a very low centre of gravity that made it seem he was immovable?
I remember doing judo with a guy who was a "dwarf" and my "god" he was very awkward to shift and brilliant at judo. I saw him throw the biggest guys on the mat with no trouble at all. He was strong and wirey and always had a smile!! I think I know why.....
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Old 06-14-2011, 10:58 AM   #84
Chris Knight
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

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Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Could be that as he was so short he had a very low centre of gravity that made it seem he was immovable?
I remember doing judo with a guy who was a "dwarf" and my "god" he was very awkward to shift and brilliant at judo. I saw him throw the biggest guys on the mat with no trouble at all. He was strong and wirey and always had a smile!! I think I know why.....
from what i've researched so far, no tony...definately not
but i'm not in a position to advise anyone
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Old 06-14-2011, 11:01 AM   #85
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Keith Gates wrote: View Post
If the dust has settled a little bit.....

In seeking out some 'basic' solo exercises that I may be able to gain something useful from I found this video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIfUgUfs2FM

I am interested if anybody is able to explain in some detail the more subtle aspects of the of this apparently basic exercise, knowing that the mastery is in the detail, especially in "basic" practice.

I can see kokyu as a whole body movement 'coiling' and a weight underside - centre to centre connection between uke and nage.
Anybody care to elaborate or share their understanding?

(A novice Aikidoka and IP virgin)
Keith
start a new thread and lets see what we get. You're not going to get anything out of this one!
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Old 06-14-2011, 11:11 AM   #86
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

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Chris Knight wrote: View Post
O Sensei was immoveable by any number of martial artists including judoka and wrestlers. Dont you think this body skill cant be re-learnt??
The unmovable trick is just that. Lifting someone up or trying to push them over is just using 1 line of off balance. It's very easy to redirect someones force. Force redirection works when only 1 line of force is being applied.

For instance I can sit in a chair on only the 2 back legs and can make it very hard for you to push me over backwards. This is just physics at work and I have to do a little trick to make it happen.

Everything O'sensei did can be explained by physics. Take a look at this video: http://youtu.be/XoDK3XuvZWw

When someone pushes on him, he pushes perpendicular or down the line of their force and throws them. Other times people are just falling for him.

This is the way I see it and all of my training revolves around this basic principal. All of the Tomiki Aikido 17 use this principal and those are the building blocks for all the Koryu Katas.

-

-It seems to be all about semantics!
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Old 06-14-2011, 11:31 AM   #87
mrlizard123
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi RIch
Easy to now understand their confusion eh? Tough to continually have to listen to it, you see the hollowness of their argument, but what can you do. They don't know...what they don't know, and for some they simply cannot imagine there is a body of work that either they or their teachers didn't know or know how to teach.
Cheers
Dan
My only disappointment is that it isn't a magic pill/shortcut, I was hoping it was more like I'd do a weeks meditation and become o sensei the second... (un?)fortunately it seems that it isn't "magic" and just needs some time put in to it like any other skill but it's knowing what solo exercises etc are useful to promote these skills.

I could do with the magic to go with it though; anyone who can teach me to bend time so I get an extra couple hours extra training in a day please drop me a line!

On the subject of you being a con man, I was sure you'd be more stern before I met you then found out you were a nice guy and even enjoyed a few beers with us. I probably conned myself but I'm going to blame you

Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
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Old 06-14-2011, 01:13 PM   #88
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
thats very interesting Tim, and to the uneducated like myself, it will work every time, but I think you need to look deeper martially and you will find that this principle doesn't always apply
So what makes the laws of physics suspended on an aikido mat, such that force is no longer a vector?
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Old 06-14-2011, 02:25 PM   #89
Cliff Judge
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
Then you need to take a judo class! You have 2 main lines of off balance. Down the line of your feet and perpendicular to your feet.

If you are strong in one direction, you are weak in the other.

Think of a power lifter squatting a few hundred pounds. As he's lifting the weight up, push with 1 finger on his waist from behind which is perpendicular to his force (his force is going up).

Bam! he will fall over backwards every time. That principal is at the core of the Aikido I learned. You can only put force in one direction. Yes it's easy to alter your force to compensate from a single push from one direction but Judo principals don't work that way.

If you're not experienced in Judo or Tomiki Aikido then you might not understand this principal.

-
Did you actually mean to push the weightlifter from behind to make him fall backwards? Sounds strange.

Anyway, if your weightlifter had developed sufficient internal power, then you wouldn't be able to move him. Because, I guess, he'd actually be exerting power in all directions ("supported on all sides") or he'd instantly shift to adjust to your force.
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Old 06-14-2011, 02:49 PM   #90
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Did you actually mean to push the weightlifter from behind to make him fall backwards? Sounds strange.
Yes, this will over arch his back and he'll fall backwards. Same thing you can do to someone when you set them up for a rear choke. Similar to what the guy does here: http://youtu.be/faVHho42v9w

You push the hips forward and his structure collapses backward. You can push with your hand or I've seen people use their knee.

And no, the weightlifter couldn't adjust his posture and still lift the weights. Similar to this clean and jerk seen here: http://youtu.be/eV1BiAyANHk

The weightlifter was a simple example to try and explain a point. If you don't believe it, lift the weights yourself and let someone push on your lower back. Please post the results on youtube!!

There is timing involved also but I hope you see the point I was making.

-

-It seems to be all about semantics!
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Old 06-14-2011, 03:14 PM   #91
Cliff Judge
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
Yes, this will over arch his back and he'll fall backwards. Same thing you can do to someone when you set them up for a rear choke. Similar to what the guy does here: http://youtu.be/faVHho42v9w

You push the hips forward and his structure collapses backward. You can push with your hand or I've seen people use their knee.

And no, the weightlifter couldn't adjust his posture and still lift the weights. Similar to this clean and jerk seen here: http://youtu.be/eV1BiAyANHk

The weightlifter was a simple example to try and explain a point. If you don't believe it, lift the weights yourself and let someone push on your lower back. Please post the results on youtube!!

There is timing involved also but I hope you see the point I was making.

-
I kinda see what you are talking about. I am not sure how useful it is for martial purposes to study what happens when you sneak up on somebody lifting weights and try to push them over, though. I've been training for a couple of years to deal with someone who is actively trying to stay centered and balanced, and I've never felt the kind of thing you describe.
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:05 PM   #92
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I kinda see what you are talking about. I am not sure how useful it is for martial purposes to study what happens when you sneak up on somebody lifting weights and try to push them over, though. I've been training for a couple of years to deal with someone who is actively trying to stay centered and balanced, and I've never felt the kind of thing you describe.
It is 100% usefull!! Without it you only have a list of techniques with no principals holding them together!!

You are locking the spine up and getting Uke on his heels. It's a basic principal. Pushing on the chin, a wrist lock, a push in the lower back all do the same thing to Uke!!

I look for the basic principal at work and group them together.

For instance Kote-Mawash leans the body forward onto the toes. So does an elbow lock etc. etc.

-

-It seems to be all about semantics!
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:18 PM   #93
Cliff Judge
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
It is 100% usefull!! Without it you only have a list of techniques with no principals holding them together!!

You are locking the spine up and getting Uke on his heels. It's a basic principal. Pushing on the chin, a wrist lock, a push in the lower back all do the same thing to Uke!!

I look for the basic principal at work and group them together.

For instance Kote-Mawash leans the body forward onto the toes. So does an elbow lock etc. etc.

-
So why does uke have to be holding a heavy weight over his head, again?

Interesting pedagogy. Kind of reminds me of the ki society stuff I saw once. These are those tomiki exercises, right? Do you ever get around to learning about aiki in this system?
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:28 PM   #94
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
So why does uke have to be holding a heavy weight over his head, again?

Interesting pedagogy. Kind of reminds me of the ki society stuff I saw once. These are those tomiki exercises, right? Do you ever get around to learning about aiki in this system?
Wow, are you really that daft? I hope this is your attempt at a joke.

-It seems to be all about semantics!
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:41 PM   #95
Cliff Judge
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

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Tim Jester wrote: View Post
Wow, are you really that daft? I hope this is your attempt at a joke.
Not trolling, just trying to learn more about what you are on about.

- You are describing those basic Tomiki exercises, right?
- What is the deal with weight lifting in your descriptions?
- Do you ever train aiki?
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Old 06-14-2011, 05:15 PM   #96
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

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Not trolling, just trying to learn more about what you are on about.
Sorry but it sounded like that when I read it.

- You are describing those basic Tomiki exercises, right?
No, these are the 17 basic techniques. You are thinking of either the walking or the releases. The basic 17 all contain different principals and can be broken up and rearranged to make hundreds of variation.

It's up to the student to recognize this and to be able to understand how to put them together.

- What is the deal with weight lifting in your descriptions?
I said you can't apply force in 2 directions. The weightlifter is just an analogy of how a persons body will collapse if you put them in a particular position. His force is going up and you hit him perpendicular to that force. If someone is pushing you, he is weak perpendicular to his push. Same thing with a punch.

- Do you ever train aiki?
If by Aiki you mean blending then yes. The blending is where you off balance uke by extending his force slightly. Then you hit it either down the line of his force or perpendicular to that force.

In the photo below, Uke's force was extended down the line of his feet and Tori is throwing square to Uke's feet where Uke is weak.



-

-It seems to be all about semantics!
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Old 06-14-2011, 06:56 PM   #97
Tom H.
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I kinda see what you are talking about. I am not sure how useful it is for martial purposes to study what happens when you sneak up on somebody lifting weights and try to push them over, though.
Cliff, I apologize for jumping into the middle of a conversation, but this is an interesting scenario.

Weightlifting involves one body & one nervous system, and most lifting movements are nominally intended to be stable only in-and-of themselves against inertia and gravity. Martial movements, on the other hand, involve the back-and-forth of two or more reactive neuro-muscular systems, often in the context of a larger martial scenario (e.g. battlefield). For example, it is clear to me that the best way to push a heavy cart up a hill is not the best way to push a 2-legged human in a judo match or in aikido randori. For example, if you were to go all-out pushing in judo, you would open yourself to being thrown in a way that doesn't readily apply to the cart-pushing.

The scenario Tim raised of pushing a weightlifter from behind is an excellent example because the result he describes--falling over backwards--depends on a particular common reaction in the body of the person being pushed. In my limited experience, IP/aiki training creates new posture, movement, and reaction patterns that change how a person responds to force applied by other people. These patterns were selected for their martial utility, and may or may not be relevant to other movement activity like cart-pushing or olympic-weightlifting.

(I'm a big fan of the olympic lifts for body conditioning, but training those lifts will not give you heavy hands, a ghosty feel in judo, or non-telegraphed punches. But you can't hold that against the o-lifts, because they aren't even *trying* to develop those martially-relevant qualities. That's what the IP/aiki training is for!)

In my opinion these IP/aiki posture, movement, and reaction patterns are hard to learn, explain, or see on video because they are "software" patterns trained into your body. Sometimes aspects are visible--it's easy to learn to spot a hip-powered turn or raised shoulders, for example--but other aspects require hands-on because the visual clues may be subtle, absent, or down right contradictory (e.g. someone may appear to be in an unstable position, but they feel immovable upon push-testing, or what may appear to be a light tap is actually a knockout).

I also think the existence of these IP/aiki effects (and therefore the validity of the principles behind them as well as the validity of the training that creates them) is hard to even *believe in* before they have been personally encountered because aiki effects can be so bizarre, counter to common sense, or outside the realm of one's "this is what humans do". For example, the first time someone's push on me disappeared because I was neutralizing, I literally stopped to ask "why did you stop pushing?". Of course they hadn't stopped, but that's what it felt like to me, while the other person described me as immovable. Another example: I distinctly remember the first time someone moved me without giving me a force--that I could feel--to resist. I was clearly being moved even though I could not identify the force moving me. (I asked for a couple repeats and was never able to even *find* a force to resist against, much less get ahead of that force to do anything about it.)

Tom

(To be clear, I'm not talking about anything metaphysical or outside the scope of western sports science. It's just that martial movement is not so simple. See Grey Cook's physical therapy textbook "Movement" for an introduction to the complexity present even in a simple functional movement pattern like the unloaded squat.)

Last edited by Tom H. : 06-14-2011 at 07:05 PM. Reason: found some extraneous words
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Old 06-14-2011, 07:36 PM   #98
graham christian
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Tom. May I say a very good explanation. Well done.

I can quite categorically state having delved into the matter somewhat
that I see it's potential and from where it comes and what it's all about.

Very useful stuff.

For those who have read my posts I can also say my Aikido is not ip as given here. So if nothing else it shows there is also a spiritual way of Aikido different to ip.

All good, all using the same vehicle called Aikido.

Regards.G.
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Old 06-14-2011, 08:06 PM   #99
Cliff Judge
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Thanks, Tom, I don't mindfully train any kind of "you can't move me" type stuff personally, but I can tell you that when I have my hands on someone who knows what they are doing, there are no straight lines, and the center around which everything turns is not where it feels to be, nor is it where it looks to be from a third person perspective.

Tim - thanks for the information. If that's the kind of training you like, please keep it up!
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Old 06-14-2011, 09:18 PM   #100
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
316 Students who trained at my dojo.
762 Seminar attendees.
All seduced by my charms? This just gets better and better. I have to tell Bill this tomorrow. Maybe, I'll blow him a kiss, and then run!

Add Ark
Add Mike
Add the Japanese Shihans (one, a life long friend of doshu) going outside the art to learn the same stuff.
Add Ikeda going to two different people, both outside the art,
Add a host of 5th dans, 4th dans, and students of various rank-mostly yudansha- from a variety of arts...
All going outside the art to learn the same stuff

You have to-by sheer logic- now address all of these others who are all going outside of aikido to find the same stuff.

Care to explain to all of us:
1.How did this disparate group of Aikido, Karate, Chinese, and MMA students and teachers from different continents all got together with men
who
2. Themselves don't even know each other ..
to
3. Learn a related body of work they some how magically know
and
4. All these teachers.... got conned together?

Your logic falls flat on it's face.

Try this
Dear Mr. Shihan or teacher of 35 years. You don't get it and I don't think you have the brains or judgment to see that all of this is and was in Aikido. I already know all of this stuff. And since you yourself are now teaching some of the new stuff you are learning outside of the art and openly discussing that it came from outside the art as well. I think you too have become a con artist, huckster and snake oil salesman.
Tony Wagstaffe


Try addressing that to Ikeda or any of the other teachers from Biranki to Aikikai to ASU. See how much traction you get out of that ill conceived logic.

Dan
That's strange Dan I'm not ranked Shihan, only 4th dan, not interested in having a rank, shank or what ever you care to mention, and who are these people that you are have supposed to have met that know me and think so well of me? I'm curious? Well as of the orgs and people you talk about I have no contact, only what I've heard, seen and read on here. Some are great some not so great and most are in the USA? Who's Ikeda? Heard of and seen Chiba Sensei and like his style, also Isoyama Sensei to, He is a nice fellow. As for all these others sorry haven't a clue. All my stuff I have come to my own conclusion, most of it is from the Tomiki or Shodokan style of aikido which much of the traditional world tend to dismiss as aikido, with the exception of a few.... me I'm just a beginner with a bit of real experience, you? A braggard with no history to tell of as it seems nobody seems to know....? Except your fans in these orgs and a few in the UK.... hmmm?
Reminds me of a story when in Singapore 1970 in an outside bar in Boogy strasa when a bunch of American Sailors came along and one started bragging about the size of his navy and how was the smallest navy in the world. Muscles, a short thin wiry OEM sparky jumped up and said how is the second effing best?. There was a right old ding dong, blood, shit and snot all over the show, the place/ bar was wrecked and so were those American sailors, we were a bit miffed and a few ripped ears, busted noses and ripped uniforms. The good part was we all shook hands, all forked out to the damage to the bar, the braggard was out cold and had to get medical attention, seems one of his own belted him over the bonks with a bottle for being such a pratt.....
Sound similar Dan?

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 06-14-2011 at 09:25 PM.
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Defining 3 Basics of Aikido: Kokyu Power Mike Sigman General 24 02-22-2011 07:36 AM
Aikido Basics Bokk Signing at Westminster Aikikai SeiserL Marketplace 5 12-19-2003 02:12 PM
The Basics akiy General 27 03-26-2003 05:12 PM


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