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Old 05-09-2011, 07:53 PM   #1
Alberto_Italiano
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Square Wrist Hangovers: Your Suggestions And Experience With Wrist Pain?

Unavoidable, I guess. Just 15 minutes of nikkyos and sankyos are bound to do that. It doesn't matter if you are gentle or less gentle - nikkyos do that. And you also need at times to undergo and do the real thing, for both are important.

I do an extensive flexiblity training of my wrists, 30 minutes every alternate day (my forearms look quite funny now lol).
Yet, well... nikkyo ouch (4 letter words exclamation lol), sankyo gee let's spin (@#!%$&!).

I often have those silly strap-bands on my wrists when they hurt a bit, people start wondering what I do...!

Support, exercises, suggestions?

ps what about knee protection? My knees hurt - I probably hit the mat too often - However, I disguise knee protection under my trousers when in the dojo (some dojos are so picky whenever you wear something that they deem unessential. Once I have even been reproached because I had a white t-shirt under my dogi!!).

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 05-09-2011 at 07:59 PM.
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Old 05-09-2011, 08:12 PM   #2
Gerardo Torres
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Re: Wrist Hangovers: Your Suggestions And Experience With Wrist Pain?

Ouch, sorry about your wrists and knees.

Arnica gel is good for bruises and sore parts.

Tape your wrists or use a wrist brace, mobility will be decreased, ergo less chance of punishment. And of course, rest (don't use them for a while, train something else). "Train in a way that makes you stronger, not destroy your body." I read that somewhere.

Wrist flexibility is good. But whole body relaxation and flexibility is even better, so when they crank on your wrist you receive the force with the whole body, not just the wrist! Even better, develop aiki and body conditioning that allows you to redirect their energy so their nikyo or sankyo "goes somewhere else" (I wish I could do this).

Are your knees hurting because of over-use, misuse, or from hitting a surface? I only use knee pads when doing seated stuff on wooden floor. On the mat I have no problem, but they should not hit hard anyway... don't drive your knees onto the mat for falling or throwing. When moving, knees move back and forth in line with feet, they do not twist in/out (they are not designed to do that).

Last edited by Gerardo Torres : 05-09-2011 at 08:15 PM.
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Old 05-09-2011, 08:34 PM   #3
lbb
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Re: Wrist Hangovers: Your Suggestions And Experience With Wrist Pain?

Nikkyo can leave you with a nasty hangover, all right. Over time, the standard ikkyo/nikkyo/sankyo/kotegaeshi stretches improve your flexibility, and you also become more sensitive and know better when to slap...but wrists do get sore sometimes. Ice and anti-inflammatory, as soon as possible after class, will help a lot. I use a lot of Chinese herbal medicine -- lately I'm a big fan of a formula called Zheng Gu Shui, which is working well for me. You may also find it helpful to learn how to tape your wrists, not just for aikido but for daily activities. Dealing with minor injuries is a learning experience -- with practice, you get better at it (and you get fewer injuries).
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Old 05-09-2011, 10:37 PM   #4
Janet Rosen
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Re: Wrist Hangovers: Your Suggestions And Experience With Wrist Pain?

I agree with Gerardo's suggestion about learning to relax into pins. If partners are cranking locks on so fast you can't start to work on that, you might ask them to slow down just a bit.
For knees hitting mat too hard, you a can get somebody who sews to make inside knee patches on gi pants with thick batting quilted inside - they look like regular patches but protect like potholders!

Janet Rosen
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Old 05-10-2011, 12:16 AM   #5
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Wrist Hangovers: Your Suggestions And Experience With Wrist Pain?

First let me say I really like the term "wrist hangover"! I'm using it!

When I have those achy wrist pains that just won't seem to go away I use my favorite trick. I cut the toe off of a tube sock, so it's just an elastic "sleeve". Then I load my wrist up with "tiger balm" cover it with the sock-sleeve, and sleep on it. I find that my wrist starts getting better in a day or two. I've been doing this for years, sometimes I think I don't need to do it, but if my wrists keep aching I'll use it, and they get better in short order.

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Old 05-10-2011, 05:18 AM   #6
Hanna B
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Re: Wrist Hangovers: Your Suggestions And Experience With Wrist Pain?

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
I do an extensive flexiblity training of my wrists, 30 minutes every alternate day (my forearms look quite funny now lol).
Stop doing that. It may be part of your problem.

Your wrists don't need more flexibility. They need more strength.
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Old 05-10-2011, 05:30 AM   #7
Maarten De Queecker
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Re: Wrist Hangovers: Your Suggestions And Experience With Wrist Pain?

During my first months of training I regularly used a wrist brace combined with reflex spray/flexium gel. I had a tendency to be a bit overenthusiastic, so that sure came in handy.

Your wrists get used to it after some months though. Give it some time. Patience is a virtue in the persuit of aikido.
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Old 05-10-2011, 06:34 AM   #8
grondahl
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Re: Wrist Hangovers: Your Suggestions And Experience With Wrist Pain?

Why? What kind of flexibility training? Mobility exercises? Static stretching? Do you train your grip/wrist strength and stability?

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Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
I do an extensive flexiblity training of my wrists, 30 minutes every alternate day (my forearms look quite funny now lol).
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Old 05-10-2011, 07:40 AM   #9
graham christian
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Re: Wrist Hangovers: Your Suggestions And Experience With Wrist Pain?

Hi Alberto.
Like all body problems it's a matter of finding out why and what to do about it.

Both Nikkyo and sankyo take time for your tendons to get used to and thus it is with tendons a matter of getting used to being stretched.

So all stretching exercises on them should be coupled with relaxing them, like a 'slow' stretch as forceful ones only lead to you putting resistance into them.

As far as feeling the pain of nikkyo and sankyo goes unfortunately the solution apart from the physical is I would say 80% to do with your own approach to it.

It is amazing to discover that when receiving nikkyo for example it seems logical to try going against it or else just wait for the innevitable. However, the solution is neither.

It's the decision to remain there with it, to not allow your mind to go againt it or indeed back away from it. To even go so far as to enjoy it.

This attitude applied you'll find you can 'give' to it so to speak and thus have less resistance. The pain then will be much, much less and the person doing the nikkyo will actually find it harder to do believe it or not.

Another point I found for people reciving good nikkyo is that at first they feel the after effects near the wrist but as their tendons get more used to it and they learn to non-resist more then the effect tends to move further and further away from the wrist up the arm. This is a good measure of progress tendon and non-resistance wise.

As for the knees smashing into the mat? Well truth be told it doesn't have to be that way. A nikkyo done that plummets the person down through the mat is a very good powerful nikkyo now it's time for the person doing it to learn a controlled one. Less damage to the opponent, more ability needed by the technician.

As far as the knees go it's a common complaint of carpet fitters. Thus there are two approaches really. Knee pads I've heard mentioned a lot and if that's the prefered solution then so be it. For me it's more to do with correct practice and a process of getting them used to the activity concerned. Overdoing it is almost always the cause apart from bad practice.

Many, in fact all of the moves of Aikido can be done from the knees however if the person doesn't learn how to move from center then they will be putting too much pressure on those knees whilst turning and thus bad practice = bad kness.

One more point. I was visited recently by a man who had done years of weight training and now had many joint problems. He wanted some Ki-atsu. I gave him some and relieved a lot of the enrgy blocks and he felt good but I advised him to see my friend for nutritional advice to aid repair and restrengthen where necessary. The point is the body needs backup when parts of it need strengthening or repairing and for bigger muscles let's say it needs extra protein to break down into amino acids to build that extra mass etc. When it comes to tendons then it's a matter of finding out what extra nutrients the body is asking you for. For example many will say calcium. Well that helps but magnesium is the nutrient which aids best in putting back the normal 'elasticity' in the tendons and indeed muscles, I think it was adelle davies who called it natures own tranquilizer. Anyway I'm sure you could have a word with a nutritionist or osteopath or someone of that ilk just for additional knowledge.

Regards.G.

Last edited by graham christian : 05-10-2011 at 07:44 AM. Reason: SPELLING
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Old 05-10-2011, 11:56 AM   #10
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: Wrist Hangovers: Your Suggestions And Experience With Wrist Pain?

Thank you for your comments! They are most appreciated and I am also writing down a few notes drawn by them.

A particular thank you also to Graham that spent some time to write a very articulated answer - just for the fun I can say that i have a regrettable tendency, when they land a good nikkyo on me, to get on my knees uttering some 4 letters word - which made several senseis chuckle
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Old 05-11-2011, 10:59 PM   #11
ninjaqutie
 
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Re: Wrist Hangovers: Your Suggestions And Experience With Wrist Pain?

You may want to consider (like others mentioned) how you receive nikkyo. I honestly have no idea how long you have been training or your ukemi level, so forgive me if what I say is something you already do.

Relaxing into the pin with your entire body is key. In my dojo, we are taught instead of just dropping down, to go down and in towards nage. It sees counter productive, but getting closer to nage actually causes less pain. The more your wrist is straightened, like when you pull away, the more it hurts. Depending on the nikkyo variation, I find myself near the mat practically on top of their feet (or off to the side) in order to get some of the torque out of my wrist.

I guess you will have to play around and see what works best for YOU. In the mean time, take it easy, tape those wrists and maybe back off of those thirty minute stretching sessions.....

Best of luck.

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
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Old 05-16-2011, 12:51 AM   #12
aikidoprincipal
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Re: Wrist Hangovers: Your Suggestions And Experience With Wrist Pain?

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
Unavoidable, I guess. Just 15 minutes of nikkyos and sankyos are bound to do that. It doesn't matter if you are gentle or less gentle - nikkyos do that. And you also need at times to undergo and do the real thing, for both are important.

I do an extensive flexiblity training of my wrists, 30 minutes every alternate day (my forearms look quite funny now lol).
Yet, well... nikkyo ouch (4 letter words exclamation lol), sankyo gee let's spin (@#!%$&!).

I often have those silly strap-bands on my wrists when they hurt a bit, people start wondering what I do...!

Support, exercises, suggestions?
Hi
Regular suburi with a good heavy suburito gave my thin wrists extra strength and then normal stretches after suburi. Works for me, good luck.

Last edited by akiy : 05-16-2011 at 10:20 AM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
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Old 05-16-2011, 10:19 AM   #13
Walter Martindale
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Re: Wrist Hangovers: Your Suggestions And Experience With Wrist Pain?

Wrists don't really have muscles. Lots of tendons from the forearm muscles, lots of ligaments, and lots of small joints. To stretch tendons and ligaments (I'm not sure how wise it is to stretch ligaments) you need to apply gentle pressure for long times. To stretch muscles you also need to apply pressure for longer periods than we usually do in warm up exercises. The physio who works on my back from time to time will strap someone into a stretch for 20 minutes at a time (OUCH - but it works) to increase muscle length. The stimulus from the long stretch somehow causes the body to add sarcomeres, lengthening (and strengthening) the muscle.
W (sarcomeres are the little contractile units that work in series to shorten muscle - muscle fibres are made up of sarcomeres strung end-to-end, and muscle fibres are in parallel making up the bulk of a muscle)

To strengthen the muscles of the forearms, you can squeeze a rubber ball, do lots of suburi, do "roll-ups" with a stick, a rope, and a weight... reverse wrist curls with a bar or dumbbell, etc., etc...

My wrist hangover is still going on from early January. grrr

Last edited by Walter Martindale : 05-16-2011 at 10:21 AM.
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Old 05-16-2011, 10:37 AM   #14
lbb
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Re: Wrist Hangovers: Your Suggestions And Experience With Wrist Pain?

I was told (don't know if this is true) that the ikkyo-nikkyo-sankyo-kotegaeshi "stretches" that are commonly done as warmups, are really more strengthening exercises than stretches. Anyone know about this?

(every time I see someone, usually a guy, who's new to aikido, straining and groaning his way through these stretches, I wince. It seems counterproductive)
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Old 05-16-2011, 11:13 AM   #15
Gerardo Torres
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Re: Wrist Hangovers: Your Suggestions And Experience With Wrist Pain?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
(every time I see someone, usually a guy, who's new to aikido, straining and groaning his way through these stretches, I wince. It seems counterproductive)
Yes, same here, I wish aikido training methods were revamped to better train students - especially beginners. A lot of the things we have beginners do are, as you say, counterproductive. Beginners are usually told to do all these repetitive "traditional" practices that instead of rid them of unnecessary tensions and bad habits create other problems (shoulder power, stiffness, chronic injuries, etc.) that are going to be really hard to re-train after years of doing them.

The whole uke culture where uke has to "take it" is also lacking in benefits. I keep hearing the phrase "ukemi is to escape from harm". I think, why would I put myself in harm's way in the first place? I should be training how to defend myself, fight back. That culture creates trained victims and false winners. (I don't find all "ukemi" training bad though, for example I like to do drills to teach both uke and nage to develop sensitivity and connection.) Beginners should be learning body skills and not have to get their wrists cranked from day one. I don't have statistics at hand but observing other martial disciplines I feel that aikido training as it is today is far more injury-prone than even some combat sports... basically I see large numbers of practitioners who are broken after a 20 years or so of training.
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Old 05-16-2011, 11:56 AM   #16
dps
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Re: Wrist Hangovers: Your Suggestions And Experience With Wrist Pain?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Nikkyo can leave you with a nasty hangover, all right. Over time, the standard ikkyo/nikkyo/sankyo/kotegaeshi stretches improve your flexibility,
Do these exercises everyday but only for five repititions each after you have warmed up to a light sweat.

Exhale slowly during the application of ikkyo/nikkyo/sankyo.This will help relax the the wrist. Holding your breath or inhaling will tighten the muscles and tendons of the wrist.

dps
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Old 05-16-2011, 08:03 PM   #17
lbb
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Re: Wrist Hangovers: Your Suggestions And Experience With Wrist Pain?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Do these exercises everyday but only for five repititions each after you have warmed up to a light sweat.
Yes. YES. More is NOT better!
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Old 05-16-2011, 09:22 PM   #18
Keith Larman
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Re: Wrist Hangovers: Your Suggestions And Experience With Wrist Pain?

Years ago my PT made a suggestion that made a huge difference for me. Since my work is often kind of hard on my arms and wrists, the added abuse during aikido was leaving me often with some pretty serious pain. After a bit of work on day he suggested I try putting on a protective wrist brace at night before I went to bed. What was happening was that as I slept at night I would sometime end up on my wrist or with my wrist flexed too much. By using a wrist brace with a rigid insert to keep the wrist stable I found most of my wrist pain was gone in a week or two. Of course everything else matters too, but by isolating it at night I was able to give it a good amount of healing time.

FWIW.

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Old 05-17-2011, 05:48 AM   #19
Hanna B
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Re: Wrist Hangovers: Your Suggestions And Experience With Wrist Pain?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I was told (don't know if this is true) that the ikkyo-nikkyo-sankyo-kotegaeshi "stretches" that are commonly done as warmups, are really more strengthening exercises than stretches. Anyone know about this?

(every time I see someone, usually a guy, who's new to aikido, straining and groaning his way through these stretches, I wince. It seems counterproductive)
The way to use nikkyo-sankyo-kotegaeshi "stretches" as strengthening exercises, I believe, is to not let the grabbed arm - the one that gets nikkyoed, etc - passively follow the movement and be stretched, but to slowly and steadily resist the stretch.
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Old 05-17-2011, 04:40 PM   #20
Mikemac
 
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Re: Wrist Hangovers: Your Suggestions And Experience With Wrist Pain?

After about eight months of training, I started to have extremely sore wrists and developed "clicking wrists". It was starting to affect all my movements during the course of the day. I finally developed a trick to get them back into shape, and both the pain and clicking have subsided.

I went to the gym and grabbed a 15lb dumbbell. I sat on a bench, lowered myself forward so the weight was hanging from my arm, between my legs a few inches off the ground. I would spin the weight horizontally back and forth, letting it extend just slightly past my normal motion. Over the next three weeks, I increased the weight to 25, 30, 35....etc., making sure not to spin too fast, as the increased weight has more momentum.

No more pain and my wrists are pretty strong now. Some others in my dojo have tried it too and they are reporting the same results.


______________________________________________

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Old 05-17-2011, 04:44 PM   #21
Dave de Vos
 
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Re: Wrist Hangovers: Your Suggestions And Experience With Wrist Pain?

We do these exercises at the beginning of each class (and I do them at home too about every day). Per exercise we do a set of four or five repititions on each hand. The first repititions of each set are fairly quick, but the last is held for a few seconds. We are told to apply force carefully until it feels uncomfortable, not painful.
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