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Old 05-12-2011, 05:44 PM   #51
HL1978
Dojo: Aunkai
Location: Fairfax, VA
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Re: Kodo Horikawa's aiki

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
I think Olympic lifting requires up power, down power, explosive power, intent, stability, and tactile perception.
Michael, could you define what you mean by up power, down power and explosive power?
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Old 05-13-2011, 04:45 AM   #52
Michael Varin
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
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Re: Kodo Horikawa's aiki

Quote:
John Brockington wrote:
I respectfully suggest you re-read my posts, because I meant some very specific things that you may be interpreting lightly or perhaps just didn't catch.
Oh. I assure you that I read all posts very carefully. Of course, as communication is imperfect, I cannot claim to understand everything exactly as you do.

Quote:
John Brockington wrote:
When I referred to up power, down power, explosive power, etc, etc, etc, I also meant some very specific things, and from your response, I think you are using a very different set of definitions of these terms than I am. I seriously doubt Olympic weightlifters have any concern whatsoever about the majority of these.
You introduced the terms to this thread, so you are more than welcome to define them.

Quote:
John Brockington wrote:
Have you felt Ark? Mike S? Dan H? Even Ikeda? Gone to any of their seminars or training sessions? If not, how can you possibly "call out" those of us who have, and ask us to "clarify" our thoughts and terms for you? Please understand, I am not saying this presumptuously, but rather, honestly and sincerely.
I have not trained with any of the three resident "experts" on the subject (I tried to organize a Mike Sigman seminar, which fell through, and enrolled in a Dan Harden workshop but was rejected). I have trained with Ikeda, although only twice, both times at seminars, but I did have opportunities to take ukemi from him. I must admit that I found Ikeda to be quite good, but my reaction was very different from what many here have said. I absolutely did not feel that he was working on a completely different level. I hate mentioning this, because any time the slightest criticism is leveled on a shihan someone always flies off the handle.

I don't feel that I'm calling anyone out. This is a forum in which we communicate primarily with writing and sometimes supplement with pictures or video. All I ask is that if you choose to post here that you do your best to productively communicate with others who post.

While there is certainly a grain of truth to the "IHTBF" sentiment, many in the "IP/IT/IS" crowd hide behind it. If you cannot effectively communicate within the limitations of this forum, then maybe it would be best to only engage those who have trained with the aforementioned instructors. Or expressly state that you do not wish to field questions from those of us who have not trained with them. I think that would be a shame.

Quote:
John Brockington wrote:
Consider this- would a casual 3 mile/4 days a week jogger tell someone who runs marathons regularly that they "get it" when they have a discussion about endurance and breathing and dealing with fatigue at the 20 mile mark while still performing at a high level? Would the casual jogger ask the serious runner to put this into terms she or he could understand, and really receive any serious or helpful response, other than "you have to go out and do it yourself to understand"? The two people both do the same activity, but with such different goals and levels of training that the same words mean very, very different things to each.
I think I understand what you are getting at. But here's the thing, I am not an aikido hobbyist. I have approached my aikido training with a high level of involvement, intensity, curiosity, and commitment. I have seriously cross trained in other arts. Practically my whole life I have been involved in athletics and generally fascinated by movement. I am by no means the best martial artist everů Not even close. And I don't claim to possess all the knowledge on any topic, but my martial arts training has been anything but casual.

One of my biggest criticisms of the "IP/IT/IS" crowd is that so many seem to believe the skills are an exclusive domain, or that others have never experienced or could never understand/identify what is being discussed. I simply do not believe that is the case.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 05-13-2011, 07:56 AM   #53
John Brockington
Dojo: Retsushinkan/Birmingham, AL
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Re: Kodo Horikawa's aiki

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Oh. I assure you that I read all posts very carefully. Of course, as communication is imperfect, I cannot claim to understand everything exactly as you do.

You introduced the terms to this thread, so you are more than welcome to define them.

I have not trained with any of the three resident "experts" on the subject (I tried to organize a Mike Sigman seminar, which fell through, and enrolled in a Dan Harden workshop but was rejected). I have trained with Ikeda, although only twice, both times at seminars, but I did have opportunities to take ukemi from him. I must admit that I found Ikeda to be quite good, but my reaction was very different from what many here have said. I absolutely did not feel that he was working on a completely different level. I hate mentioning this, because any time the slightest criticism is leveled on a shihan someone always flies off the handle.

I don't feel that I'm calling anyone out. This is a forum in which we communicate primarily with writing and sometimes supplement with pictures or video. All I ask is that if you choose to post here that you do your best to productively communicate with others who post.

While there is certainly a grain of truth to the "IHTBF" sentiment, many in the "IP/IT/IS" crowd hide behind it. If you cannot effectively communicate within the limitations of this forum, then maybe it would be best to only engage those who have trained with the aforementioned instructors. Or expressly state that you do not wish to field questions from those of us who have not trained with them. I think that would be a shame.

I think I understand what you are getting at. But here's the thing, I am not an aikido hobbyist. I have approached my aikido training with a high level of involvement, intensity, curiosity, and commitment. I have seriously cross trained in other arts. Practically my whole life I have been involved in athletics and generally fascinated by movement. I am by no means the best martial artist everů Not even close. And I don't claim to possess all the knowledge on any topic, but my martial arts training has been anything but casual.

One of my biggest criticisms of the "IP/IT/IS" crowd is that so many seem to believe the skills are an exclusive domain, or that others have never experienced or could never understand/identify what is being discussed. I simply do not believe that is the case.
I agree that like a lot of mantras, "IHTBF" has been said so many times that it may have lost some meaning or impact. I think the reason for the repetition, though, is that while there quite likely is IP/IT/IS in many areas- sports, agrarian activities, even aikido, none of those have tried to systematically and exclusively develop IP/IT/IS. Instead, those skills have been used, at best, as relatively minor adjuncts for standard power generation.

The IP/IT/IS crowd (and I know I take GREAT liberties in attempting to speak for it) is trying to codify and systematize training terminologies and methodologies which can be effective for the individual training as well as readily conveyed or taught from one person to another. They have had to look to many sources (Chen taiji, daitoryu, southern shaolin, etc, etc) in order to cobble together their own systems, because even within some of the traditions that ostensibly use IP/IT/IS, there is great variability in practice and understanding.

So when "we" come across as persnickety or repetitive when discussing terminology or IHTBF, it is because there is so much variability or subjectivity still in these areas, that if we are not talking or trying to figure out how to train the same things, it kind of ends up like the pythonesque "hundred yard dash for people with no sense of direction."

John
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Old 05-13-2011, 09:03 AM   #54
chillzATL
Location: ATL
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Re: Kodo Horikawa's aiki

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
I don't feel that I'm calling anyone out. This is a forum in which we communicate primarily with writing and sometimes supplement with pictures or video. All I ask is that if you choose to post here that you do your best to productively communicate with others who post.

While there is certainly a grain of truth to the "IHTBF" sentiment, many in the "IP/IT/IS" crowd hide behind it. If you cannot effectively communicate within the limitations of this forum, then maybe it would be best to only engage those who have trained with the aforementioned instructors. Or expressly state that you do not wish to field questions from those of us who have not trained with them. I think that would be a shame.

I think I understand what you are getting at. But here's the thing, I am not an aikido hobbyist. I have approached my aikido training with a high level of involvement, intensity, curiosity, and commitment. I have seriously cross trained in other arts. Practically my whole life I have been involved in athletics and generally fascinated by movement. I am by no means the best martial artist everů Not even close. And I don't claim to possess all the knowledge on any topic, but my martial arts training has been anything but casual.

One of my biggest criticisms of the "IP/IT/IS" crowd is that so many seem to believe the skills are an exclusive domain, or that others have never experienced or could never understand/identify what is being discussed. I simply do not believe that is the case.
Michael,

As I've said before, I don't believe there is a common (scientific, medical, etc) vocabulary to properly describe what we're trying to describe. I mean we can use words like fascia and such, but medical science doesn't seem to have put any time (at least up to this point) in doing any serious studies of the aspects of the body that I believe are being used here. So it's going to be difficult to clearly explain things because how I explain it is different from John, who is different from you. We just have to accept that for now and try to find common ground in our use of terminology and try to avoid getting hung up on one persons particular choice of words or using that as opportunities to say "AH HA! So and so can do that".

Also, I do not believe that aspects of IS/IP are exclusive to this type of training. I believe Dan, Mike and maybe Ark would agree too. I think you can find aspects of IS in TONS Of places, but there's many layers to this onion and it requires all of those layers for it to be the IS onion. So we have to be careful not to focus on any one thing and say that "this is IS" because someone like yourself is probably going to find similar examples. IS is more than just relaxed balance, more than just controlling forces within the body, more than just explosive power in one direction or another. It's a combination of all those things and some we haven't even bothered to get into yet and it's having all of those things at all times, from all directions. Having that also requires a very specific (though from various methods) type of body training and skill development. While someone might have an aspect or two of the whole in whatever it is they're doing, if they haven't trained, conditioned and developed their usage of it outside of that particular skill, then it's really not the onion we're striving for.
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Old 05-13-2011, 10:27 AM   #55
Walter Martindale
Location: Cambridge, ON
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Re: Kodo Horikawa's aiki

Summarising comments from Keith (tons of practice) and others who talk about "mastering" an activity - mileage makes champions...
10,000 hours of deliberate practice. And you can search the web for "deliberate practice" - it's in the learning literature. It's about 3 hours a day, 6 days a week, for about 550 weeks, or just over 10 years.
I know I haven't done that much Aikido since I started in 1993 because of a number of things. I suspect a lot of those who are now Shihan have done that much time in thoughtful, deliberate, aware practice...
Through the course of all that practice, "internal power" and all that other stuff has to develop, or you fall apart.
After becoming an expert, many people forget how they learned something, and forget that they may not be 'doing' what they think they're 'demonstrating'. After all - none of us actually share their neuromuscular systems - we can only feel what is happening when they interact with us.
W
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Old 05-13-2011, 10:48 AM   #56
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
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Spain
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Re: Kodo Horikawa's aiki

Quote:
John Brockington wrote: View Post
Ok, that is really very funny.
I could be even funnier.
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Old 05-13-2011, 11:24 AM   #57
HL1978
Dojo: Aunkai
Location: Fairfax, VA
Join Date: Aug 2006
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Re: Kodo Horikawa's aiki

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
Michael,

As I've said before, I don't believe there is a common (scientific, medical, etc) vocabulary to properly describe what we're trying to describe. I mean we can use words like fascia and such, but medical science doesn't seem to have put any time (at least up to this point) in doing any serious studies of the aspects of the body that I believe are being used here. So it's going to be difficult to clearly explain things because how I explain it is different from John, who is different from you. We just have to accept that for now and try to find common ground in our use of terminology and try to avoid getting hung up on one persons particular choice of words or using that as opportunities to say "AH HA! So and so can do that".

Also, I do not believe that aspects of IS/IP are exclusive to this type of training. I believe Dan, Mike and maybe Ark would agree too. I think you can find aspects of IS in TONS Of places, but there's many layers to this onion and it requires all of those layers for it to be the IS onion. So we have to be careful not to focus on any one thing and say that "this is IS" because someone like yourself is probably going to find similar examples. IS is more than just relaxed balance, more than just controlling forces within the body, more than just explosive power in one direction or another. It's a combination of all those things and some we haven't even bothered to get into yet and it's having all of those things at all times, from all directions. Having that also requires a very specific (though from various methods) type of body training and skill development. While someone might have an aspect or two of the whole in whatever it is they're doing, if they haven't trained, conditioned and developed their usage of it outside of that particular skill, then it's really not the onion we're striving for.
Jason, I think your onion layer reference is appropriate when talking about these sorts of skills.

CMA seems to have a vocabularly to describe various aspects of IP/IS, but given that not all of the people involved in these discussions have familiarity with CMA terms, or utilize their own vocabulary or have different takes on the same terms, such conversation is problematic. There will inherent confusion utilizing chinese terms on a japanese martial arts forum. Likewise, some of these terms may refer to various feelings/sensations/qualities.

With regards to Michaels comments about "it has to be felt", various IS/IP proponents aren't hiding behind it, there just have been plenty of people on these discussions who after being exposed to these concepts wind up saying the same thing. I'm certainly not asking for a witness, but there certainly is a trend on this forum over the years who wind up saying, "I was wrong", or "I have felt aspects of this, but not what was shown".

Last edited by HL1978 : 05-13-2011 at 11:27 AM.
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Old 05-14-2011, 05:56 PM   #58
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
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Re: Kodo Horikawa's aiki

Daito Ryu and Aikido are two sides of the same sword. The reason some modern Aikido risks fading into irrelevance is because there are those in Aikido that strive to pull out all it's Daito Ryu roots.

Thank You for sharing the video Osin. For those who don't believe what they see I understand. You just have to experience it for yourself.

William Hazen
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