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Old 02-10-2010, 06:42 PM   #1
Tom123
Location: Sheffield
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Confused Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

I'm wondering how much other Brit folks pay for insurance, federation membership etc. I've been advised to join the British Tomiki Aikido Federation, but it's 20 annual membership fee and 40 pounds insurance. 60 a year for a humble 5th kue who is unlikely to enter a competition for a while seems a Hell of a lot of money. The Mrs is likely to do some complaining! I'd be really grateful for any comments and advice concerning this. Thank you. Martin

PS When I did karate (admittedly about 20 year ago) it was all in for a tenner.
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Old 02-10-2010, 06:55 PM   #2
Abasan
Dojo: Aiki Shoshinkan, Aiki Kenkyukai
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT!

Slightly more than 10 years ago, I paid a measly 3quid for the yearly insurance for my University aikido club. I think they did it together with BAB. Maybe the cost of insurance has gone up?

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 02-10-2010, 07:15 PM   #3
Tom123
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT!

Thanks for that, Ahmad. Apparently the federation in question will 'shell out' if need be, whereas the considerably cheaper AMA (Amateur Martial Association) will only cough up if you've been off work for 6 months and have a 'life long' injury. It still seems a lot of money, though.
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Old 02-11-2010, 01:42 AM   #4
chris wright
 
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

Hi Martin, the cost depends on the club and association.
Many package the insurance and membership together, some charge separately.
I suppose it also depends on if the club is part of a 'national' association - so the fee would be dictated by their head office.
This fee will often go towards courses so members pay less to train with Japanes Shihan, who they pay to come over and train.

A couple of clubs i've been a member of charge about 20 p/a for membership & insurance.
Another club i'm a member of charge 10 insurance and the membership is charged separately on a sliding scale about 35 for beginners and the higher grade you are the less you pay.

Often martial arts clubs will have a high front end (or start-up) fee as they know the drop out rate is high.
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Old 02-11-2010, 03:56 AM   #5
john.burn
 
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

Hi Martin,

The cost of Aikido insurance in the UK via the BAB is 1.40, clubs and associations usually then ask for a membership that goes to them directly and is nothing to do with the BAB. Not everyone is a member of the BAB mind you but I guess the numbers involved do indeed keep the costs down.

Charging 40 for insurance sounds like a hell of a lot to me!

As it would appear you're learning Shodokan (Tomiki) then the BAA are members of the BAB, they should be cheaper and might well have a dojo in your area.

Last edited by john.burn : 02-11-2010 at 04:01 AM. Reason: added info about the BAA

Best Regards,
John

www.chishindojo.co.uk
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Old 02-11-2010, 04:02 AM   #6
Walter Martindale
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

Don't have insurance in NZ - we have "ACC" (Accident Compensation Corp, I think).
However, in terms of safety, it makes sense that an activity which includes tossing each other around and applying joint locking techniques would require some significant risk management. OTOH, when I was in the Canadian shooting sports (National Firearms Ass'n) we could have a million bucks insurance for $5.00 per annum because the shooting sports are VERY safe... Almost the last place in the world you'll find a person getting shot is at a target range due to usually very strict safety practices.

Sorry if a bit OT.
W
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Old 02-11-2010, 05:00 AM   #7
Dazzler
Dojo: Templegate Dojo, bristol & Bristol North Aikido Dojo
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

Quote:
John Burn wrote: View Post
Hi Martin,

The cost of Aikido insurance in the UK via the BAB is 1.40, clubs and associations usually then ask for a membership that goes to them directly and is nothing to do with the BAB. Not everyone is a member of the BAB mind you but I guess the numbers involved do indeed keep the costs down.

Charging 40 for insurance sounds like a hell of a lot to me!

As it would appear you're learning Shodokan (Tomiki) then the BAA are members of the BAB, they should be cheaper and might well have a dojo in your area.
Don't just think that the membership is for the 1.40 though...Federations also pay an Annual subscription which from March will be an additional 3.50 per certificate.

So 5 on annual membership is for BAB ..the rest is for membership of your Federation.

We in NAF charge 20 which seems fairly common practice, I'm not surprised that Tomiki would be more though...even for 'non competitors' I'd expect the risk of training for competion without actually competing would still increase and require an extra contribution to insurers.

That probably a question for the Tomiki organisation to answer though.

Again - I'm not surprised that some university clubs are a lot less. We only charge 10 for unwaged - which most students qualify as, but if there is subsidisation from the Uni then sure, it could well be less.

Cheers

D
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Old 02-11-2010, 06:15 AM   #8
Alex Megann
Dojo: Southampton Aikikai
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

40? That's almost as much as I pay the BAB for Professional Indemnity insurance as an instructor!

Our members pay about 25 per year, which covers membership of the dojo and the BAF (which itself includes BAB accident insurance).

Alex
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Old 02-11-2010, 06:28 AM   #9
john.burn
 
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote: View Post
Don't just think that the membership is for the 1.40 though...Federations also pay an Annual subscription which from March will be an additional 3.50 per certificate.

So 5 on annual membership is for BAB ..the rest is for membership of your Federation.

We in NAF charge 20 which seems fairly common practice, I'm not surprised that Tomiki would be more though...even for 'non competitors' I'd expect the risk of training for competion without actually competing would still increase and require an extra contribution to insurers.

That probably a question for the Tomiki organisation to answer though.

Again - I'm not surprised that some university clubs are a lot less. We only charge 10 for unwaged - which most students qualify as, but if there is subsidisation from the Uni then sure, it could well be less.

Cheers

D
Yeah, I forgot the cost for the association met member fee for it's BAB membership. The insurance is definitely only 1.40 or so though. Even so, still a lot less than 60.

If I remember correctly from my previous life as a member of the BAB exec then most of the insurance claims put through were from the Tomiki associations.

Best Regards,
John

www.chishindojo.co.uk
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Old 02-11-2010, 06:35 AM   #10
Ketsan
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

We pay about 30, although I think membership in the association is included in that as well.
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Old 02-11-2010, 07:37 AM   #11
Abasan
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

Quote:
John Burn wrote: View Post
Yeah, I forgot the cost for the association met member fee for it's BAB membership. The insurance is definitely only 1.40 or so though. Even so, still a lot less than 60.

If I remember correctly from my previous life as a member of the BAB exec then most of the insurance claims put through were from the Tomiki associations.
In that respect, us ki dojos should get a discount...

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 02-11-2010, 08:51 AM   #12
Mark Peckett
Dojo: Aikido Fellowship of Great Britain
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

The organisation I belong to charges 20 annual membership which has been pegged for the last 3 years and 50 instructor's insurance through the BAB so 60 for a 5th kyu does seem high; however, as another poster has pointed out, you are practising tomiki style, which may have more injuries related to it.

How does your insurance compare with a local judo club, for example?
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Old 02-11-2010, 09:24 AM   #13
Tom123
Location: Sheffield
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

Thank you all for your contributions. I reckon Daren and Mark have probably hit the nail on the head - ie the competitive aspect of Tomiki probably pushes the price up. As a 5th kyu, I don't imagine that I'll be doing any competing for a long time.
I once visited my friend's Aikiki club back in my hometown and apart from the Kakari Geiko that we do, the training was very similar.

Mark, I do know a judo yudansha - I'll find out how much he pays.

Thanks

Martin
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Old 02-11-2010, 09:38 AM   #14
john.burn
 
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

Hi Martin,

I could be wrong, but the BAA are Tomiki and also the largest single association within the BAB, they pay 1.40 for insurance the same as anyone else in the BAB. They may have other insurances in place for competeing but I don't think so or surely they wouldn't be claming in the BAB's normal member to member insurance for injuries.

Best Regards,
John

www.chishindojo.co.uk
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Old 02-15-2011, 11:09 AM   #15
markyboy64
Dojo: backyard
Location: plymouth
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

Quote:
Martin Horne wrote: View Post
I'm wondering how much other Brit folks pay for insurance, federation membership etc. I've been advised to join the British Tomiki Aikido Federation, but it's 20 annual membership fee and 40 pounds insurance. 60 a year for a humble 5th kue who is unlikely to enter a competition for a while seems a Hell of a lot of money. The Mrs is likely to do some complaining! I'd be really grateful for any comments and advice concerning this. Thank you. Martin

PS When I did karate (admittedly about 20 year ago) it was all in for a tenner.
Most martial art clubs in the UK are in leisure centers.
If so you don't need insurance,you are already covered by law!(I.E the leisure centre).
Plus what you are paying for"which is a fraction of what is being asked" is third party only insurance.
Which means you would have to sue the person who injured you.
Not the club.

So it's more fraud than insurance.
It's the easiest way for instructors to fleece their students.
Especially as most students give up in the first three months.
OOHH no refund!

So if anybody on here is being asked for insurance money,in clubs,training camps ect....you got MUG written on your forehead.
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Old 02-16-2011, 05:22 AM   #16
john.burn
 
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

Quote:
Mark Ackrill wrote: View Post
Most martial art clubs in the UK are in leisure centers.
If so you don't need insurance,you are already covered by law!(I.E the leisure centre).
Plus what you are paying for"which is a fraction of what is being asked" is third party only insurance.
Which means you would have to sue the person who injured you.
Not the club.

So it's more fraud than insurance.
It's the easiest way for instructors to fleece their students.
Especially as most students give up in the first three months.
OOHH no refund!

So if anybody on here is being asked for insurance money,in clubs,training camps ect....you got MUG written on your forehead.
Don't really agree with most of what you said here, certainly for me, I pay my students insurance for them (in the BAB, it is now 1.50 no matter who you are, hardly a lot of money) - they only pay to join the association and only then if they stay beyond 4 weeks - before that they don't even pay to train for the first 2 weeks.

Best Regards,
John

www.chishindojo.co.uk
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Old 02-16-2011, 08:37 AM   #17
markyboy64
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

Quote:
John Burn wrote: View Post
Don't really agree with most of what you said here, certainly for me, I pay my students insurance for them (in the BAB, it is now 1.50 no matter who you are, hardly a lot of money) - they only pay to join the association and only then if they stay beyond 4 weeks - before that they don't even pay to train for the first 2 weeks.
No! but you are agreeing to some of it!!

Most people are being ripped OFF!.

1.50 is not the same as 60.
So where is the 58.50 gone?Answer- somebodies back pocket!!

Aikido has become the wing chun,and tkd,of japanese arts.
Weak but expensive.

Last edited by akiy : 02-16-2011 at 01:11 PM. Reason: fixed quote tag
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Old 02-16-2011, 09:46 AM   #18
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

Quote:
Martin Horne wrote: View Post
I'm wondering how much other Brit folks pay for insurance, federation membership etc. I've been advised to join the British Tomiki Aikido Federation, but it's 20 annual membership fee and 40 pounds insurance. 60 a year for a humble 5th kue who is unlikely to enter a competition for a while seems a Hell of a lot of money. The Mrs is likely to do some complaining! I'd be really grateful for any comments and advice concerning this. Thank you. Martin

PS When I did karate (admittedly about 20 year ago) it was all in for a tenner.
My insurance for the dojo is about $9.00 / head. Sounds like they are simply passing on the cost. Totally reasonable as far as I can see. 20 / year is surely not unreasonable as a membership fee either. That's 1.67 / month... that the price of a good espresso drink. That's still got to be one of the cheapest activities around...

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
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Old 02-16-2011, 09:48 AM   #19
Alex Megann
Dojo: Southampton Aikikai
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

Quote:
Mark Ackrill wrote: View Post
No! but you are agreeing to some of it!!

Most people are being ripped OFF!.

1.50 is not the same as 60.
So where is the 58.50 gone?Answer- somebodies back pocket!!

Aikido has become the wing chun,and tkd,of japanese arts.
Weak but expensive.
I think the conclusion of the discussion here is that the large sum referred to by the original poster is specific to that particular organisation, and not to "most people". Your last statement therefore doesn't apply to most organisations, who pay the 1.50 to the BAB. If the OP objects to the fee demanded by the BTAF, I suggest he tries to find a club affiliated to the BAA.

To my knowledge the BAB insurance covers accident and injury. There is a page on the BAB site with plenty of information on their insurance policies:

http://www.bab.org.uk/insurance/insurance.asp .

Alex

Last edited by akiy : 02-16-2011 at 01:11 PM. Reason: fixed quote tag
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Old 02-16-2011, 09:49 AM   #20
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

Quote:
Mark Ackrill wrote: View Post
Most martial art clubs in the UK are in leisure centers.
If so you don't need insurance,you are already covered by law!(I.E the leisure centre).
Plus what you are paying for"which is a fraction of what is being asked" is third party only insurance.
Which means you would have to sue the person who injured you.
Not the club.

So it's more fraud than insurance.
It's the easiest way for instructors to fleece their students.
Especially as most students give up in the first three months.
OOHH no refund!

So if anybody on here is being asked for insurance money,in clubs,training camps ect....you got MUG written on your forehead.
If that's what you think is going on with your instructors... I would advise quitting. I wouldn't want to have any student training with me who had that attitude.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 02-16-2011, 09:59 AM   #21
john.burn
 
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

Quote:
Mark Ackrill wrote: View Post
No! but you are agreeing to some of it!!

Most people are being ripped OFF!.

1.50 is not the same as 60.
So where is the 58.50 gone?Answer- somebodies back pocket!!

Aikido has become the wing chun,and tkd,of japanese arts.
Weak but expensive.
So one guy posts that the British Tomiki Aikido Federation (who i've never heard of) is charging 40 insurance (not 60 - there was 20 for membership fee) so by that very statement most people are being ripped off? In the BAB you are not allowed to add anything onto the cost of insurance, it's 1.50. The clubs / association can opt to charge a membership fee which is obviously fine, don't like it, don't join but I hardly think you can summarise from one person that most people are getting ripped off. Most (but not all) aikido associations in the UK get their insurance from the BAB. So that means over 10,000 people in the UK pay 1.50 per year...

Last edited by akiy : 02-16-2011 at 01:11 PM. Reason: fixed quote tag

Best Regards,
John

www.chishindojo.co.uk
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Old 02-17-2011, 04:25 AM   #22
markyboy64
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
If that's what you think is going on with your instructors... I would advise quitting. I wouldn't want to have any student training with me who had that attitude.
Ofcourse you wouldn't want your students with "that" attitude.
Your techniques wouldn't work against them.
They would be teaching you!!

Putting on white pyjamas two or three times a week,teaching a hobby martial art, to hobbyists,in bare feet does not make one a martial artist!.

Teaching or training techniques means you havn't learned a thing or are teaching for money,and padding out the art.

I stand corrected,it was forty pounds worth of fraud and not sixty!!

BTW...I would advise quitting,afterall you,ve never hurt anybody!
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Old 02-17-2011, 05:44 AM   #23
john.burn
 
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

Quote:
Mark Ackrill wrote: View Post
Ofcourse you wouldn't want your students with "that" attitude.
Your techniques wouldn't work against them.
They would be teaching you!!

Putting on white pyjamas two or three times a week,teaching a hobby martial art, to hobbyists,in bare feet does not make one a martial artist!.

Teaching or training techniques means you havn't learned a thing or are teaching for money,and padding out the art.

I stand corrected,it was forty pounds worth of fraud and not sixty!!

BTW...I would advise quitting,afterall you,ve never hurt anybody!
Joy, just what this place needs, yet another troll.

Please enlighten us all oh great one. After all, you are your own teacher apparently. What is it you learn so much about from your great self?

So please tell us what your background is...

Best Regards,
John

www.chishindojo.co.uk
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Old 02-17-2011, 08:18 AM   #24
Mark Freeman
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

Quote:
John Burn wrote: View Post
Joy, just what this place needs, yet another troll.

Please enlighten us all oh great one. After all, you are your own teacher apparently. What is it you learn so much about from your great self?

So please tell us what your background is...
Hi John,

then don't go feeding him they thrive on direct questions, they only wither and die through being completely ignored.

If he was offered to practice for free, it would not change the contempt that he holds aikido practice in. I'm wondering about someone that comes to join Aikiweb who clearly has no interest in adding anything of any value?

regards

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-17-2011, 11:22 AM   #25
john.burn
 
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Re: Cost of insurance seems OTT! (UK)

I know... it just gets tedious with these people, sometimes it's fun to bait... lol

Best Regards,
John

www.chishindojo.co.uk
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