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Old 05-02-2011, 06:32 AM   #151
carina reinhardt
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Hello Carina

Surely just training and not bothering about how the art developed leaves us open to the same dilemma as the woman you described. Not to mention that things corrupt as well as develop. This "language" had a particular function envisioned by its creator.

Carl
Hi Carl,
I don't think that aikido will corrupt if we train sincerely.
regards
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Old 05-02-2011, 07:06 AM   #152
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

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Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
I was present at this demonstration and to be honest, I've no idea what he was doing.
The tallest uke in the clip I linked is a former dojo mate of mine. One of the thinks that made him start to consider seriously moving to Japan was his (and other club members) experience with Hirosawa Sensei at 2006 Osimo seminar.

I hope he comes back some day to check what he learned.

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Old 05-02-2011, 07:34 AM   #153
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

"I 'yams whats I ams, and dats all that I 'yams: I'm Popeye the Sailor Man"
~ anon

Last edited by abraxis : 05-02-2011 at 07:49 AM.
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Old 05-02-2011, 07:40 AM   #154
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
The tallest uke in the clip I linked is a former dojo mate of mine. One of the thinks that made him start to consider seriously moving to Japan was his (and other club members) experience with Hirosawa Sensei at 2006 Osimo seminar.

I hope he comes back some day to check what he learned.
It's a small world, especially in Iwama. He's a friend of mine too. I was just talking to him today. As you'll know, he insists that what Hirosawa Shihan is doing is the real deal.

Carl
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Old 05-02-2011, 08:15 AM   #155
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

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It's a small world, especially in Iwama. He's a friend of mine too.
Nice guy Amir. Give him my best regards nex time you met him.

BTW, If he tells you I'm a d**k, he's correct.

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Old 05-02-2011, 08:43 PM   #156
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
Hi Carl,
I don't think that aikido will corrupt if we train sincerely.
regards
Hello Carina

I'd agree but what is training sincerely? If someone completely changed what the founder was doing, focusing on superior muscle power and a philosophy of "No mercy! Mercy is for the weak!" Would that not be a corruption no matter how sincerely we do it? I think sincerity implies asking the question in this thread. Then, even if you are deviating from what you think the founder was doing, at least you know you are doing so and can understand why.

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Nice guy Amir. Give him my best regards nex time you met him.
Yeah, he's a good bloke. Will do.
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Old 05-03-2011, 02:10 AM   #157
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

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Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Hello Carina

I'd agree but what is training sincerely? If someone completely changed what the founder was doing, focusing on superior muscle power and a philosophy of "No mercy! Mercy is for the weak!" Would that not be a corruption no matter how sincerely we do it? I think sincerity implies asking the question in this thread. Then, even if you are deviating from what you think the founder was doing, at least you know you are doing so and can understand why.

.
Hi Carl
If someone completely is focusing on superior muscle power, do you really think that he will improve in any way?
And about asking the question of this thread? Don't you think it is long enough and there are too much replys already? Will one more provide anything positive to this thread?. Carl I just like to train and enjoy it, I don't like to write too much!
regards
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Old 05-03-2011, 02:54 AM   #158
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
Hi Carl
If someone completely is focusing on superior muscle power, do you really think that he will improve in any way?
Yes.

If someone sincerely works on developing superior muscle power and its martial application, they should improve at applying muscle-power martially. If they call it Osensei's aikido, should we just believe them because they do it sincerely?

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
And about asking the question of this thread? Don't you think it is long enough and there are too much replys already? Will one more provide anything positive to this thread?. Carl I just like to train and enjoy it, I don't like to write too much!
regards
I get it that you don't think this is worth discussing. For all that, you are still replying to this thread with an argument that there are too many replies to the thread. You clearly spend enough time thinking about aikido when you aren't training to want to share your opinion or ask the odd question. That's a good thing isn't it?

Obviously, I'm typing this one-handed in the middle of tai-no-henko, much to the irritation of my partner...

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Old 05-03-2011, 03:59 AM   #159
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Hi Carl,
Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?
Unfortunately I haven't met O'Sensei, so I cannot do his aikido, I'm doing the aikido my sensei is teaching me
Have a nice day..
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Old 05-03-2011, 05:28 AM   #160
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
Unfortunately I haven't met O'Sensei, so I cannot do his aikido, I'm doing the aikido my sensei is teaching me
I never met him either. And I suspect that no one can do his aikido exactly, even if they did actually meet him. The blind men feeling the elephant story has been used to explain what it was like for those around him. Some got closer than others though, and had more time, and I do think there is value in trying to get as good a picture of the elephant as possible, regardless of who you choose to follow.

If you really have issues with my view in particular, I suggest further discussion by PM rather than lengthening a thread you don't like.
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Old 05-03-2011, 05:48 AM   #161
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
I'm doing the aikido my sensei is teaching me
Which could be aikido only in name.

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Old 05-03-2011, 09:11 AM   #162
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Which could be aikido only in name.
what's the differentiating factor then?
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Old 05-03-2011, 09:33 AM   #163
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
what's the differentiating factor then?
The principles informing the waza and how the art relates to the methaphysical.

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Old 05-03-2011, 09:47 AM   #164
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
The principles informing the waza and how the art relates to the methaphysical.
elaborate on "the metaphysical" please as I'm not sure I understand what you mean there.

Otherwise, I think I agree.
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Old 05-03-2011, 09:56 AM   #165
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
elaborate on "the metaphysical" please as I'm not sure I understand what you mean there.
Otherwise, I think I agree.
If I may intrude, I've had the beginner's understanding that metaphysical in this context refers to OSensei's Shintoism. But, then again, I'm probably wrong or only getting a piece of it. That's why I practice.

Last edited by abraxis : 05-03-2011 at 10:01 AM.
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Old 05-03-2011, 10:19 AM   #166
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
elaborate on "the metaphysical" please as I'm not sure I understand what you mean there.

Otherwise, I think I agree.
Founder explains it better:

"Today, as requested, I will attempt to describe for you what aikido is.

Aikido is the principle of eternal continuation throughout all ages of the one and same system of the Universe.
Aikido is Heaven-sent truth and the marvelous work of Takemusu Aiki.
Aikido is the Way of union and harmony of Heaven, Earth and humanity.
Aikido is, moreover, the Way to take care of the entire creation.
Aikido is the supreme work of kotodama and the Great Way of Universal Purification (misogi).
Those who deeply believe in this Way must serve in the administration of the founding of a Universal Nation.

We must accomplish our missions as human beings and become guideposts for the Great Union and Harmony of the Universal Family. Therefore, we must understand Universal Truth, the true state of things, and attain oneness with the mind of God. We must learn from the manifestations and works of God in this Great Universe, and assist in His administration serving as a sword (tsurugi).

In aikido, it is absolutely indispensable that we stand on the Floating Bridge of Heaven (Ame no Ukihashi). This is essential for us to return to and be unified with God, who is the spiritual source, the Original Parent."


etcetera...

Source: Takemusu Aiki - Lectures of Morihei Ueshiba (I think there's no complete translation in English, but I've read the Japanese edition is easily available and there's a French translation in process).

One only has to understand Founder's metaphysical views about aikido and check if his own practise matches with them.

Easy, isn't it?

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Old 05-03-2011, 10:26 AM   #167
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Founder explains it better:

"Today, as requested, I will attempt to describe for you what aikido is.

Aikido is the principle of eternal continuation throughout all ages of the one and same system of the Universe.
Aikido is Heaven-sent truth and the marvelous work of Takemusu Aiki.
Aikido is the Way of union and harmony of Heaven, Earth and humanity.
Aikido is, moreover, the Way to take care of the entire creation.
Aikido is the supreme work of kotodama and the Great Way of Universal Purification (misogi).
Those who deeply believe in this Way must serve in the administration of the founding of a Universal Nation.

We must accomplish our missions as human beings and become guideposts for the Great Union and Harmony of the Universal Family. Therefore, we must understand Universal Truth, the true state of things, and attain oneness with the mind of God. We must learn from the manifestations and works of God in this Great Universe, and assist in His administration serving as a sword (tsurugi).

In aikido, it is absolutely indispensable that we stand on the Floating Bridge of Heaven (Ame no Ukihashi). This is essential for us to return to and be unified with God, who is the spiritual source, the Original Parent."


etcetera...

Source: Takemusu Aiki - Lectures of Morihei Ueshiba (I think there's no complete translation in English, but I've read the Japanese edition is easily available and there's a French translation in process).

One only has to understand Founder's metaphysical views about aikido and check if his own practise matches with them.

Easy, isn't it?
Piece of cake. "Now do it".
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:02 PM   #168
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Founder explains it better:

"Today, as requested, I will attempt to describe for you what aikido is.

Aikido is the principle of eternal continuation throughout all ages of the one and same system of the Universe.
Aikido is Heaven-sent truth and the marvelous work of Takemusu Aiki.
Aikido is the Way of union and harmony of Heaven, Earth and humanity.
Aikido is, moreover, the Way to take care of the entire creation.
Aikido is the supreme work of kotodama and the Great Way of Universal Purification (misogi).
Those who deeply believe in this Way must serve in the administration of the founding of a Universal Nation.

We must accomplish our missions as human beings and become guideposts for the Great Union and Harmony of the Universal Family. Therefore, we must understand Universal Truth, the true state of things, and attain oneness with the mind of God. We must learn from the manifestations and works of God in this Great Universe, and assist in His administration serving as a sword (tsurugi).

In aikido, it is absolutely indispensable that we stand on the Floating Bridge of Heaven (Ame no Ukihashi). This is essential for us to return to and be unified with God, who is the spiritual source, the Original Parent."


etcetera...

Source: Takemusu Aiki - Lectures of Morihei Ueshiba (I think there's no complete translation in English, but I've read the Japanese edition is easily available and there's a French translation in process).

One only has to understand Founder's metaphysical views about aikido and check if his own practise matches with them.

Easy, isn't it?
There's a lot of discussion recently as to just how much of the things he said were these quirky metaphysical/spiritual things or if they were actual physical references wrapped up in his spiritual parlance. Because I read some of those things and, to me, now, they are far more physical than spiritual.

For the others, there is an interview on AJ where the person recalls asking O'sensei about his spirituality and if one needed to do that to do his aikido and he responded no, that is his aikido and one does not have to do exactly as he does.

So how do we reconcile that? Is everything short of doing exactly what he did "aikido in name only"? Tohei did not involve himself with the spiritual, but Ueshiba seemed to approve of what Tohei was doing to the point of signing off on books and videos. So where's the real line? Do we need toseparate ai-ki-do and aiki-do?
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Old 05-03-2011, 06:49 PM   #169
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
There's a lot of discussion recently as to just how much of the things he said were these quirky metaphysical/spiritual things or if they were actual physical references wrapped up in his spiritual parlance. Because I read some of those things and, to me, now, they are far more physical than spiritual.
But for him, imo, physical and spiritual was the same thing.

Quote:
For the others, there is an interview on AJ where the person recalls asking O'sensei about his spirituality and if one needed to do that to do his aikido and he responded no, that is his aikido and one does not have to do exactly as he does.
I think you are talking about André Nocquet, a french student of Tadashi Abe who practised Aikido in Japan in the mid fifties.
"[One day] I said to Ueshiba Sensei, "You are always praying, Ueshiba Sensei. Then aikido is a religion." "No, that's not true. Aikido is never a religion, but if you are a Christian, you will be a better Christian because of aikido. If you are a Buddhist, you will be a better Buddhist." I thought it was an amazing response. I really liked his answer. Since he was a Japanese I was afraid he would say that Christianity was nothing. Ueshiba Sensei had a great deal of respect for Christ. I was living in a four-mat room in the dojo and he would knock on the door and enter. He would sit down beside me and there was a portrait of Jesus Christ. He would place his hands together in a gesture of respect. I asked him one day if there wasn't a similarity between his prophecies and those of Christ. He answered, "Yes, because Jesus said his technique was love and I, Morihei, also say that my technique is love. Jesus created a religion, but I didn't. Aikido is an art rather than a religion. But if you practice my aikido a great deal you will be a better Christian." Then I asked, "Sensei should I remain a Christian?" He replied, "Yes, absolutely. You were raised as a Christian in France. Remain a Christian." If he had told me to stop being a Christian and become a Buddhist, I would have been lost. My heart was full of Ueshiba Sensei because he had a vision of the entire world and that we were all his children. He called me his son."
Source: http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=405
I wonder how practising Aikido can make one a better christian/buddhist/muslim whatever. Anyway, founder's words as told by Nocquet resemble (to me, at least) Oomoto doctrine:
The teachings of Oomoto are not those of a single sect. We don't believe, as do many established religions, that in the words of our founder we have the one and only religious truth. At Oomoto, we don't bind up and destroy people's living souls by encircling them with the steel nets and bars of doctrine and scriptures and rituals and catechisms. As a result, Christians, Buddhists and believers of other faiths from all over the world come to Oomoto, and we all work together to cultivate our spirituality and to discover religious principles in harmony with our times.Onisaburo Deguchi, 1923

Source: http://www.oomoto.jp/enDokon/main.html
Quote:
So how do we reconcile that? Is everything short of doing exactly what he did "aikido in name only"? Tohei did not involve himself with the spiritual, but Ueshiba seemed to approve of what Tohei was doing to the point of signing off on books and videos. So where's the real line? Do we need toseparate ai-ki-do and aiki-do?
Where is the real line? I don't know where is the line but, considering how many claim do be doing "the real thing" while doing very different aikidos, makes me thing the line has to be drawn by oneself, mostly because possibly none of them is to be trusted.

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Old 05-04-2011, 01:12 AM   #170
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Taken from the The Aikido of the Ki-no-Nagare Aikido Dojo website

"In the Aikido world there are many ways of training and many different ways Aikido is understood by it's practitioners. The way of practicing Aikido has changed from the time of O-Sensei.

These changes have several reasons, but generally speaking, the major problem is that there has been a separation in terms of how practice is actually done from the spiritual teachings; the spiritual teachings do not lead the actual practice, they are seen as separate from it.

Hikitsuchi-Sensei used to say: "True progress in Aikido does not come from concentration on developing technique, but, as the heart opens the technique changes as a result. This cannot happen through making technique the most important thing in your practice. Budo is not technique".

Opening of the heart can be developed through the practice of Aikido techniques, which is one reason O-Sensei called them kami-waza, techniques of the divine, since that opening leads, according to O-Sensei, to unification of our heart with the heart of the divine, — but there has to be an intent or a movement in that direction (meaning the opening of the heart) both on the part of the practitioner and on the part of the instructor; and how can opening of the heart be a primary intent if we do not wish to discover Aikido as unconditional and universal love, — which is how O-Sensei defined it?

It cannot happen as long as Aikido is practiced dualistically — that is in terms of succeeding in technique against someone, or over someone, as for instance in the concept of self-defense or in sports. Or as something external to one's self, as technique that can be perfected, and rewarded with grades, thus implying competition and comparison with others…
"Aikido is misogi — misogi is Aikido."
O-Sensei

Furthermore, the Aikido of O-Sensei is not done as a reaction to an attack. The attacking movement is called forth and connected with by the tori before the movement begins! Ideally there is just one movement that takes place through the two bodies.

Ki-no-Nagare Aikido tries to be as congruent as possible with the philosophical and spiritual thinking that is in the Founder's writings and talks. For example, O-Sensei stated clearly that the practice of Aikido must be one half part Bu and one half part Bun, as the two edges of the holy sword in Shinto, the Tsurugi, — a word/image that was used by O-Sensei to express the activity of Aikido.
So, through listening and studying in the Ki-no-Nagare Aikido Dojo we practice to relate Aikido to all aspects of the Universe, and to all aspects of Life" --P.Shapiro Sensei

Last edited by abraxis : 05-04-2011 at 01:14 AM.
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Old 05-04-2011, 05:55 AM   #171
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Ah, Shapiro Sensei... very interesting (but a bit weird, imo) instructor.

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Old 05-04-2011, 07:35 AM   #172
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Ah, Shapiro Sensei... very interesting (but a bit weird, imo) instructor.
Weird how? Shapiro Sensei appears to be a very dedicated disciple of OSensei and someone who is committed to Aikido as "The Art of Peace". All Aikido instructors have their quirks.

Last edited by abraxis : 05-04-2011 at 07:37 AM.
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Old 05-04-2011, 08:09 AM   #173
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Ah, Shapiro Sensei... very interesting (but a bit weird, imo) instructor.
If this is what he's doing, then can it be seen or better yet, felt, in his aikido?
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Old 05-04-2011, 08:38 AM   #174
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Shapiro Sensei was our senpai at special class for foreigners (which included jo and ken ) at Hombu dojo, taught by Saotome Sensei, who was already planning to write a book. Saotome Sensei's mini-lectures at the little coffee shop after class were the beginnings of his book, Aikido and the Harmony of Nature. Shapiro Sensei translated for us, and helped explain the Shinto concepts. His other teacher was Hikitsuchi Sensei of Shingu. Some of the French students at Hombu visited Hikitsuchi Sensei from time to time.... Hikitsuchi Sensei was, officially or unofficially, a Shinto priest .... Thanks for the reference to Shapiro Sensei's dojo website, I will look it up...

Shapiro Sensei, along with Laurin Herr, accompanied Hikitsuchi Sensei on his tour of several American cities in 1977 when Hikitsuchi Sensei held seminars and memorial ceremonies for O Sensei . His devotion to O Sensei and his demonstration of Aikido techniques and his explanations of basic concepts and purification exercises impressed many here also ....
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Old 05-04-2011, 08:41 AM   #175
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

(Jason posted while I was writing)

Good question, I wonder where his dojo is. I don't have opportunity to travel these days, but maybe someone will go train with him and let us know... I hope so....
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